Developers Facilitating Teaching as an Antidote to a Deep Game's Lack of Intuition
Radix
Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34654Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34654Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1698072:date=Jan 20 2009, 06:52 PM:name=1mannARMEE)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(1mannARMEE @ Jan 20 2009, 06:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1698072"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Alien Commander or Skulk Player should be able to organize an ambush better together with his teammates by some kind of waypoints both of them see.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How bouts you all designers at Charlie Cleveland's apartment quit cutting good gameplay mechanics like bunnyhop and add UI elements that let players effectively teach each other in game.
That way you can make the game deep enough to be popular in Korea where everyone is gosu.
I hereby christen this idea Good Schtick.
How bouts you all designers at Charlie Cleveland's apartment quit cutting good gameplay mechanics like bunnyhop and add UI elements that let players effectively teach each other in game.
That way you can make the game deep enough to be popular in Korea where everyone is gosu.
I hereby christen this idea Good Schtick.
Comments
lol
So what if these ambush point sprays have a visible range directly proportionate to the number of kills you have as a player, so that highly skilled players' instructions would function like scent of fear, but poorer players would be stuck with things you might not even be able to see through walls.
EDIT: Skill begats teamwork begats skill. Automatic squad creation led by the best players without stepping on anyones' toes.
I'll start ranting, if they cut some more good gameplay mechanics besides bhop, devour, for example <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" />
Here's a user story:
Kharaa comm is notified of a marine on the DI. He sees two skulks nearby and lays down a path for one skulk to bait(hold at this position) and another to flank.
Instant improved teamwork through communication of commander knowledge.
Nice flame. Nothing more really needs to be said.
That way you can make the game deep enough to be popular in Korea where everyone is gosu.
I hereby christen this idea Good Schtick.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just an idea, but I am guessing not all players want bunnyhop in the game. I personally do not want it. Another element to consider is, what happens when a server op decides to disallow bhopping? What do you do then? Flaming them won't help. Neither will making demands.
Just a few thoughts.
And whats wrong with things like bunny hopping, it feels more like one of those, "I WANT THE GAME NOW" flame threads that are instant closed by patiente is a virtue guy <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Question: What are the query icons?
Are they the icons that appear over people's heads?(ie: need welding/healing)
If yes, then yes it improved communication by helping figure out who was saying that command. But what does that have to do with the topic at hand?
Really it's all a sliding scale of what is obvious to people. Some people will look for the best options, and others need it handed to them on a silver platter. This says nothing for the quality of the individual who <b>still after over five years of playing</b> tries to straightline marines, but it does get to the heart of a very serious business issue: some of your playerbase are stupid - how do you solve this problem without compromising your design's integrity?
Personally, I'm all for tutorials and manuals.
I disagree.
If the alien commander could grant multiple potential "good" ambush points it would not mirror the marine commander's system of "move to target". In fact it lets aliens retain their autonomy atmospherically while improving gameplay (and I would argue macroscopic game lifespan) dramatically.
<!--quoteo(post=1698305:date=Jan 23 2009, 02:21 AM:name=BadMouth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BadMouth @ Jan 23 2009, 02:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1698305"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for letting players giving waypoints, I fear that it would clutter up the place a lot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that what I proposed, making the intensity of a mark directly proportionate with a player's score would solve that problem, do you disagree? Why?
It is worth it.
I have no problem with letting players disable it.
I think this "ambush point" icon is a great idea, but I disagree with some of y'all's limitations of it.
-I don't see the point in having a skill/rank system which determines how visible a player's "ambush" icon would be. Why not instead limit everyone to one ambush icon? They will never need more than one anyway. Plus this allows multiple kharaa players to mark the same ambush point and display to their teammates how strong or weak a position is. This is different from a standard 'kharaa is here' icon because it displays <u>intent</u> - which is what I think is the driving.. uh.. coolness behind this idea.
As with the 'weld me' or 'heal me' icons, retards will always spam their requests or labels - this can't be avoided. But there are new players who have good strategies/creative ideas/or just happen to be in the right spot - and I don't see the point in punishing these people because of the other stupid players out there.
-themeatshield said that he didn't need to be told where to ambush, and thought it would be better to simply turn it off. While that would be preferable in some cases, it could potentially leave even the most experienced player out of the loop of an ambush they may have wanted to be a part of. So I guess all I'm saying is.. I think it'd be better to have not only the option of deactivating <u>all</u>, but also the ability to <u>individually</u> deactivate stupid player's notifications.
Virtually everyone agrees with you in that, but they're doing it anyway. This post is intended to maximize gameplay with the precondition of an alien commander, not to endorse the idea.
<!--quoteo(post=1698373:date=Jan 25 2009, 01:49 AM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(botchiball @ Jan 25 2009, 01:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1698373"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't see the point in having a skill/rank system which determines how visible a player's "ambush" icon would be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's probably because you're a skill communist. Good players should lead the team while bad players should be left in the dust wanting to improve, but still having fun in one way or another. Otherwise games become as retarded as pubbing NS is right now.
<!--quoteo(post=1698373:date=Jan 25 2009, 01:49 AM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(botchiball @ Jan 25 2009, 01:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1698373"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why not instead limit everyone to one ambush icon? They will never need more than one anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some ambushes require three aliens. Some require four. I can see limiting people to one (or none) until their score proves they are worthy of more, but I would certainly make it feasible for a <i>decent</i> (not excellent) skulk to drop 2-3.
The problem with doing it that way is that bad players who are intelligent get screwed over - say someone likes to parasite and bite rts but only gets one rt down while other skulks jack the other 3 he chews to a pulp. Do you give him points for kill assists on structures and hope he somehow comes out above the lerk or skulks who are cosntantly ambushing? It seems unfair to me.
<!--quoteo(post=1698373:date=Jan 25 2009, 01:49 AM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(botchiball @ Jan 25 2009, 01:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1698373"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But there are new players who have good strategies/creative ideas/or just happen to be in the right spot - and I don't see the point in punishing these people because of the other stupid players out there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I completely agree, which is why good players' markings are seen more visibly than others' in the example given.
<!--quoteo(post=1698373:date=Jan 25 2009, 01:49 AM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(botchiball @ Jan 25 2009, 01:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1698373"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-themeatshield said that he didn't need to be told where to ambush, and thought it would be better to simply turn it off. While that would be preferable in some cases, it could potentially leave even the most experienced player out of the loop of an ambush they may have wanted to be a part of. So I guess all I'm saying is.. I think it'd be better to have not only the option of deactivating <u>all</u>, but also the ability to <u>individually</u> deactivate stupid player's notifications.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a great point. How bout if you mute someone it also mutes their markings?
EDIT: This is under the assumption that muting actually works in Source, which I may be mistaken in.
hahaha, A skill communist huh? I don't think anyone's ever called me that.. but I guess it applies.
<!--quoteo(post=1698412:date=Jan 25 2009, 12:43 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Jan 25 2009, 12:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1698412"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good players should lead the team while bad players should be left in the dust wanting to improve, but still having fun in one way or another. Otherwise games become as retarded as pubbing NS is right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would argue against you that good players <u>do</u> lead the team while bad players are left in the dust. And so there is no point in further hindering said bad players.
<!--quoteo(post=1698412:date=Jan 25 2009, 12:43 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Jan 25 2009, 12:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1698412"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Some ambushes require three aliens. Some require four. I can see limiting people to one (or none) until their score proves they are worthy of more, but I would certainly make it feasible for a <i>decent</i> (not excellent) skulk to drop 2-3.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure what you mean here.. I wasn't saying you should limit kharaa player's ability to ambush, I was saying to only allow them one icon at a time. Even the most expert player can only be in one place at a time.. unless they have two computers playing at the same time.. Anyway, I would think the point of the icon would be to say "I'm here and waiting to amush someone, please come help" - clarifying against the "I'm here and waiting for res to get carapace so I can rush into the marine start and die".
<!--quoteo(post=1698412:date=Jan 25 2009, 12:43 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Jan 25 2009, 12:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1698412"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem with doing it that way is that bad players who are intelligent get screwed over - say someone likes to parasite and bite rts but only gets one rt down while other skulks jack the other 3 he chews to a pulp. Do you give him points for kill assists on structures and hope he somehow comes out above the lerk or skulks who are cosntantly ambushing? It seems unfair to me.
I completely agree, which is why good players' markings are seen more visibly than others' in the example given.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't even know how to try to tackle this issue, probably with lots of game testing : /. But I still say - skills should be communist, makes everything easier : ).
Would there be other icons which kharaa players could put to use besides the 'ambush' icon?
Aliens should just be able to use a communication with a little icon above their heads (just like the weldme or cover me marine communications) to say "ambush here" or "bait here". Just one communication at a time would be appropriate (just like the marines). And it would (of course) have to be silent to the marines.
A decent team can ambush and bait dynamically without a huge amount of communication, but this small feature may help.
I'm still not in support of specific locations being marked for ambushes (just the players themselves asking to ambush)... Players can learn where to ambush from by copying other players (initially), and then thinking about it themselves.
No need for an OTT alien commander WP or anything. No need for bonuses etc.
An "ambush here" (and maybe "bait here") communication that puts an icon over the alien's head would really help to facilitate ambushing in pub games.
What about a hybrid - any player can use the impulse for a single partner to suggest an ambush spot, and the best (say the top 1/4th of the players on the team) players can add additional spots that remain in place - perhaps whoever is leading the scoreboard (and maybe the second ranked player as well) has their markings shown as a broadcast (similar to L4D's "illumination of teammates wallhack"), the leader's show up brightly, while the second in command can be more faintly seen, and only from a shorter radius.
Macroscopically this draws all players to a central waypoint on the map, and it allows more complex ambush strategies to be implemented once they are there because more detail is being added as the players congregate. This is a good learning strategy because it presents the instructions in stages, preventing information overload.
Those with less skills will never improve if they get penalized for having less skills.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
<!--quoteo(post=1698511:date=Jan 26 2009, 11:13 AM:name=steppin'razor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(steppin'razor @ Jan 26 2009, 11:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1698511"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually Radix I like this idea, its taken me awhile to get use to it though. Since UWE are keen on an alien commander, could it not make these ambush points, and even expand from there placing icons on the map to defend/patrol key areas?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this - even though kharaa players should really know this already.. it would be nice for the help it would provide. Are there other marine icons which kharaa would benefit from using?