We were talking about pub players not parasiting, and pub marines often don't expect ambushes. In which case parasiting them certainly would make them expect it when they follow the sound. There's little incentive to risk that when you can just parasite him with the ambush.
<!--quoteo(post=1697460:date=Jan 11 2009, 04:11 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Zek @ Jan 11 2009, 04:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1697460"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We were talking about pub players not parasiting, and pub marines often don't expect ambushes. In which case parasiting them certainly would make them expect it when they follow the sound. There's little incentive to risk that when you can just parasite him with the ambush.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I just can't see why anyone is ambushing a marine without para in the first place. Everyone does that here and there, but it's most often easier to land a parasite while they are approaching and then consider the ambush on some nearby area. For skulks without bhop there are probably even more spots where it's no point in ambushing, so just go ahead, take a para and reconsider the situation.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If a commander calls a hive and you aren't recovering from a large tumor, you already know where the skulks will be. I don't know about Euros, but I usually put my pistol crosshairs over where parasiting skulks will probably be. Those parasites will cost the skulk a large chunk of its health, which means that it has to run back to heal before being able to ambush.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm most often sticking a little above the expected spot or standing a little off from it or something. It's still a reflex battle, but at least you can't blindly whip me out and you've got way fewer choises for positioning than I do. Situational stuff, bust most of the time skulk has quite a few good alternatives for parasiting spot. Unless you're able to snap reflex all of them and protect yourself from the potential ambushes, you're going to get paraed quite soon.
X amount of ingame TF 2 achievements under the skulk section.
examples
Ambush Ambush 600 players. requirement must be with in 5 yards of player motionless out of LoF uncloaked before before engagement, A target must die.
Invisible pray Cloak Ambush 500 players. same as ambush, but marines cant of cross haired over you while cloaked. - deters creeping down a hall way strait at rines at ground lvl.
A true predator Ambush 55 players in 45 minutes on one map. same as ambush but with time constraint.
True meditation Ambush 10 marines after a 30 second motionless camp
Jump dat ###### Ambush 20 marines with one or more players also ambushing
Patience pays off ambush and kill 3 or more marines 8 times in one ambush
Only the wise prosper Ambush and kill 5 or more marines 4 times in one ambush
soften the blow Ambush 8 no armor marines with a parasite and two chops
Lethal step Ambush 8 no armor marines with a parasite and a focus chop
Screaming death Ambush 4 marines that have noticed your hiding spot with leap
Did someone hear a grenade Ambush 3 or more players 8 times with xenocide
Tagem and bag emm Parasite 2000 marines
This ones marked for death Parasite 200 marines and ambush those marines
Death order Parasite 600 marines and let someone else ambush them
Kill order Parasite 20 marines and let someone else ambush them in 20 minutes
Magic tricks parasite a marine from 10 yards away and have them ambushed within 8 seconds of parasite. 16 times
Slight of hand parasite 2 marines from 20 yards away and have them ambushed within 8 seconds of parasite. 8 times
Wrum on a hook Take 25% or more damage while your back is turned on the marine who needs to be ambushed within 4 seconds by another player. 8 times
I was only trying to see Take damage front on from 10 or more yards away marine must be ambushed by another player. 8 times
The traps this way lure a marine into a OC and have another player ambush him or the OC. must take 25% or more damage in the rear.
Up here looks good Use the follow command and have 800 friendly players join you in a successfully ambush.
We cant move come too us Have a gorge heal you while motion less for 10 seconds in a ambush location after a ambush. 12 times.
See if they fall for that again Cuckle in a ambush location 100 times after a successfully ambush while motion less for ten seconds.
Silent but deadly Ambush 100 marines with silence
They are coming Ambush 100 marines with scent of fear
Swift kill Ambush 100 marines with celerity
Cannon fodder Clear a mine and Ambush with carapace
Mine sweeper Clear 12 mines with carapace, a ambush must take place in that area with in 30 seconds.
Missed by that much Redemption three times mid ambush, must make a successfully ambush on one or more marines
Lucked out again redemption 3 times and hope another player succeed at the ambush
Didn't we just do this redemption 3 times with out a successful ambush
Slow and steady Regen too full health motionless in a ambush location 10 times
Fire cant burn me Get burnt light on fire in a ambush and regen till it goes out 10 times
A single lop Ambush with focus and one shot 50 marines
I am right in front of you Ambush 10 marines at ground lvl cloaked
I knew there were two Ambush and kill 2 marines with scent of fear
Home turf Ambush 100 marines while on infestation
Behind enemy lines Ambush 50 marines while in enemy territory
Ill get him Ambush 20 marines while a friend is in line of site chewing a res node
Watch my back have another player ambush 50 marines while you chew a marine res node
baby sitting ambush 50 marines while they attack a res node
thats my gorge ###### ambush marine killing a gorge 20 times
stay away from my gorge ambush a marine knifing a gorge 10 times
you know the drill ambush a marine after the gorge gives the signal 50 times
did you fart ambush 50 marines while in spore
its not the spoon that bends ambush 75 marines while in umbra
sweet chin screech ambush 75 marines with primal scream in effect
Let the big guy go first Ambush marines while a Ono's is taking damage 20 times
Clean up crew Ambush marines while a fade is taking damage 20 times
Trained attack skulks Ambush a HA with 2 or more skulks
Meals on wheels Ambush a JP
In Constance Ambush a marine with a grenade primed
Micro wave dinners Ambush a marine coming through a phase gate
I was just cloned Ambush a marine fresh out of a infantry portal
That was close Ambush a beconed marine and survive to tell the tail
Spit him out Ambush a commander who willingly steps out of his chair
You will get this one evenly Ambush a commander on CC destruction --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
REWARD If completed pockets of certain achievements
Instant gratification must complete XX-XX listed achievements above or must achieve This select title based on having this ambush achievement *tick This select title based on having this ambush achievement *tick This select title based on having this ambush achievement *tick This select title based on having this ambush achievement *tick
Then player receives leap for the first 20 seconds of a map
Scout me be same as above ether a certain amount of achievements or tick off the require ments for a few titles based around parasite achievements
Then player receives scent of fear for the first 40 seconds of the map, as skulk.
Bait her up If player achieves a bunch of baiting achievements then player gets carapace as skulk for the first 60
------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Keep em untested Rewards
Keep on striking If player has achievements DOT DOT DOT and reward Instant gratification And player ambushes successfully 4 times grant celerity for ten seconds and silence and cloak + 1 res
Keep on tracking If player has complete a select few achievements and has achieved the reward Scout me be and player parasites 10 marines player gains scent of fear for 3 seconds adrenaline for 5 seconds and celerity for three seconds
Keep on baiting blah blah blah something about do this do that and make sure you have Bait her up completed and player successfully baits marines through 2 ambushes player gains carapace celerity regen for a minute.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------- let me put that another way active learning with goal plus reward plus constant patting if you do the right thing. and its not done in a tutorial area. multiple things can tick off at once, numbers are all subject to change but most of them are fairly spot on.
I don't know how TF2 system works, but this seems quite nice. I don't know if is necessary to give start game advantages to who unlock they, mainly because it would require even more balancing. This system probally can be aplied to other classes and also the marines, prompting the player playing in both sides and with all weapons/classes disponible <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
A complementar idea. Maybe there be levels to achievements. After doing something once (like ambushing), you receive the level 1 insignia, a crappy one. To earn better ones, you have to repeat that once unlocking the better ones. For example, the...
<!--quoteo(post=1697534:date=Jan 12 2009, 03:03 PM:name=NEX9)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NEX9 @ Jan 12 2009, 03:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1697534"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tagem and bag emm Parasite 2000 marines<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
..would be like: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Level 1 First target Parasite a marine
Level 2 "I can see you..." Parasite 25 marine
Level 3 Oficial Parasiter Parasite 250 marine and 10 buildings
As long as you dont start with focus or any other upgrade or have any competitive advantage after ambushing over 9000 marines besides "hey cool look what I did" cool points.
<!--quoteo(post=1697555:date=Jan 12 2009, 11:04 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Jan 12 2009, 11:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1697555"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As long as you dont start with focus or any other upgrade or have any competitive advantage after ambushing over 9000 marines besides "hey cool look what I did" cool points.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont see why, is the flair gun in tf2 over powered and pyro has that all the time if you unlock it.
the window of time that you have these abilitys is miniscule. and its going to take someone months of active partisipation to unlock em.
leap for the first 10-20 seconds of a map is really too only get you to the front faster which is honoustly needed in some maps, if a marine rushes too that front as well it may help a little in takeing him down granted.
take veil for exsample, the hives sub sector, game begins. it takes a skulk pushing fairly hard to get there in 15-20 seconds and set up for ambush. if that ambush fails, marines are in your hive before you know it, the gorge in over look is dead. so you cant spawn and get back to there in time. it's only a 3 second run from the west junction ambush location to over look for the marines, you cant ambush above the door leading into the hive as you have just spawned and still dont have your bearings, you now have marines looking down a really long coridor shooting at you, and can clearly pistal whip 4 spawn locations.
the game doesnt swing that easly on the other foot aliens ambush sucessfully now are you suggesting they throw away every thing your trying to get them todo and rush MS?. cos if you arnt and want them to keep ambushing that means rince and repeat camp the same ambush location spread out and fall back a bit, or move up a door or two/ambush lcoation. but thats just them trying to stick to your constraints. lets say we got for the fast win, your asking damaged skulks to go through a room that most definately still has a marine in it hideing behind a rez tower plenty of distance he knows you just ambushed his buddies. so you need to take him down going to cost you time health and maybe skulks if you attempt to run past him to get to spawn it could cost you health and skulks. you get to spawn has com been building or has another marine, nearly always another marine 33% chance hes heard you depending on if hes building in the room watching the coridor heading to topo, or watching the skylight coridor were his mates just got taken out. thats a long coridor if hes camping this your prolly screwed. if not you gotta travel that coridor take him out get into positon to take out the next wave of marines most likely coming out in pairs and be positioned to watch for com or if hes pushed hard for obst for early motion be careful of energy cos he may just becon. the other foot on that how many marines did you just ambush weres the last marine did any marines go topo side? if he sneaks back from topo your not going to see him line you up. you cant get in a ideal position to take him out or avoid his fire were you can still chew those ip's
so if you spread your forces too thin and set up a ambush above those locations from the front to the hive (so west junk, over look, maybe system way pointing) a few marines rushing that way are going too total your team, and have a nasty advantage were they have you sealed in your hive.
now you throw a bunch of players in the mix some hard core active players now you may get one or two players with rewards unlocked now you have the potental to set up a ambush maybe at west skylight with a few bunny hoping skulks with leap. maybe they just want to get to west junk with out being seen or heard so the the nubmer of ambushing aliens in that area is shrouded with the unknown, as apose to marines rushing west junk and knowing they heard 2 or more skulks set up above the door.
maybe your ambushes will work a little better with a parasite rewarded skulk being your eyes, your ambush para skulk says dont run in one more corner camping. or he says lone marine baiting you ad you all flee into the vent or al lswap too parasite and 4 skulks parasite the same marine to death as he creeps out the door with his buddie standing ten yards behind him waiting to kill you all if you try and ambush him.
maybe your bait skulk wont die for nothing
sure evently you will have skulks running around with most stuff all unlocked. you may have 6 six skulks camping above a door with scent silence and armor. but by time that first engadement goes down a minutes most likely gone past unless the marines are pushing for a seriously early rush, hopefully this will deter the first hive rush lock down strat that is commonly seen were marines end up with shot guns camping a hive room till all the aliens F4 6 minutes into the game cos they have been dieng repeatedly for 5 minutes to campers
As for the active rewards or the pat on the back reward for doing good repeatedly sure you base life form is limited as a skulk, but most people arnt going to spend majority of there time as a skulk if they can help it, so you have a reward system were if all else is done you have this ability to keep that play style tuned and recive something from it.
Are you going to beable to get away with 4 ambushes as a skulk do you have the time the patence, motions going to deter you, phase gates reduce the number of choke points to ambush from, armor and weapon upgrades make it a high risk endever and marine armor upgrades make you a fish in a barrel, not to mention other kharraa upgradeing life forms and springing your ambush before its due, also while your waiting on rines how long before you have enough res to upgrade life forms. new life forms mean people start spreading thiner to cover a larger area of the map, how offtan are you going to beable to work with other kharraa to get those sucessfull ambushes.
sure the rewards i have listed might be a bit to much you may have them for too long but players need a pyshical reward or they arnt going to go bat ###### crazy over trying to achive the achivements
take keep on scouting for exsample, parasiteing ten marines is quite common, but thats going to be achieved 3 times a map, and its percs are really only going to help in a situation were your para procs ether the first or second marine para'ed in a large group of marines in coming in that situation you have no energy you just used it all, it would be nice to see if you missed any marines and the boost of celeritys going to help you duck in and out paraing now that they all have pistals on you.
sure if it procs on a lonely marines you have this tiny window to find more marines and a bit of speed to get to them, maybe ten marines is a tad low though, but if you actively parasiteing 3-4 times a games a nice amount of times to get this tiny little perk, it also adds a new dynamic to active and subconsious play style you can count ok thats 8 marines two more then i get the buff so i can utilise it fully hum ok if i para this solo rine i cant para the next solo rine i want it to proc on a group so i can know the situation from all angles and improve my chances on chooseing my fight wisely
but basicaly there needs to be a active benfital reward for achieveing said goals it cant have too much of a effect on the game, but it needs too be enough that players will get that play style locked down
you can also flip the shoe on the other foot and give vanila marines perks for culling aliens out side of ten yards and a few for killing aliens out side of 20 yards or with different guns and the odd nade again embeding into marines that theire best chance is to keep a bigger distance from the karraa to them giveing them perks like "Kevlar coated" 9mm rounds in there pistal for the first 20 seconds of the game, or "Freashly sighted", in lmg shoots more accurately for 25 seconds of a map, "Fully charged", marine gains bateries for their scope for frist 35 seconds of a new game.
Active rewards/pats on the back so nilla rine ulocks all his achivments gets the rewards lsited above can now earn active rewards For killing 8 skulks 20 yards out with lmg gain "PIG stopers" next clip of ammo each bullet does one or two extra points of damage. its not based on time but he could reload after half a clip he may not reload and get court haveing to reload cos he wants to use every bullet. pistal whiping 10 skulks 20 yards out, gain "exstended clip" next pistal clip of bullets has 5 more rounds in it shot gun 5 skulks 15 yards out gain "Just like skeet" load shot gun with a slug instead of gaguged pallets grenade 3 skulks 20 yards out gain dud grenade marine gains a extra grenade when thrown doesnt go off but the grenade can be shot at to make it exsplode
again keeping marines at a distance rewarding them from killing stupid aliens who run head on at them down a coridor, With tiny brief buffs.
for a noob hes going to go wow what did i do to get that, ill try and do it again. for a average player hes going to go ok i got this coming up use it wisely. for a pro hes going to go its nice, but i am busy i need to go here and do this right now the game depends on it.
besides pro or tonie play could turn it off if you wanted to get all pantsy about it and id imagine servers could turn it off if they seen fit.
granted you will get a few achivement help servers crops up, but hopefully going there and people helping each other achive these things players will learn ###### this is more usefull than dieing to a curtain of lead 15 yards from my meal
<!--quoteo(post=1697572:date=Jan 13 2009, 04:54 AM:name=NEX9)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NEX9 @ Jan 13 2009, 04:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1697572"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dont see why, is the flair gun in tf2 over powered and pyro has that all the time if you unlock it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->the flaregun isnt a straight upgrade like focus or scent of fear, its just an option and it doesn't help gameplay to have to grind achievements to get fun stuff to play with
your weighting a few few seconds of upgrades that proc after set correctly excuted actions that proc if the situation depends on it or not against a unlock that completely adjusts a roles game play that can be used at any situation that warrents it.
and secondly the suggestion is for achivments that teach correct play so that those that do the right thing and master it get a pat on the back and those that dont know can randomly proc it or stumble across it try it out and find a new method to better their skill and get a pat on the back for it.
The most appropriate suggestion to fix the issue has been used for decades and that is for a tangable reward for learning without a boreing tutorial, lets see how many times your puppy drops/lays if you never speak posative too it pat it and give it a treat. what happens if your dog needs to lay to avoid a on coming truck, hes going to get hit every time. hes not going to sit there and listen let alone understand you talk too him and demonstrate all the tricks and things he needs to do and what not to do. its a puppy it just wants to play. Let it play.
besides radix its not the sharman your ment to beat, your ment to kill other things. i am ment to kill the sharman.
but yes radix maybe those purples will give you a slight advantage if you still feel like running strait at the sharman letting him nuke you from a distance, maybe you will get two swings off instead of one hes still going to heal once your dead. but if you LOS ambush him were you know you can normaly get 4 swings off and die or kill him, then yes those purples and that 2000 game hours is going to be worth it, to occationaly ambush and know your going to get 5 hits off at a increased crit rate and kill him, cos you have put in 2000 hours of LoS ambushing and not 2000 hours of running strait at him while he nukes you.
<!--quoteo(post=1696276:date=Dec 17 2008, 11:26 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Align @ Dec 17 2008, 11:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1696276"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->training the marines to look in suspect corners sounds good to me<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you might get accused of walling on pubs if you do that
If the marine you are targetting is good with sound cues, the parasite sound cue is all he needs to know exactly where you are EVEN IF HE DIDNT SEE YOU COMING. For some reason it is difficult to find a skulk by sound when he is biting you, since the bite sound effect seems to be located on top of you and isn't very directional. But if a skulk behind you fires a parasite while running in for a bite, the moment that parasite lands you can immediately turn around and be facing in the right direction to blast him in the face. Extra dangerous if you have a shotgun.
If the marine you are targetting is good with sound cues, the parasite sound cue is all he needs to know exactly where you are EVEN IF HE DIDNT SEE YOU COMING. For some reason it is difficult to find a skulk by sound when he is biting you, since the bite sound effect seems to be located on top of you and isn't very directional. But if a skulk behind you fires a parasite while running in for a bite, the moment that parasite lands you can immediately turn around and be facing in the right direction to blast him in the face. Extra dangerous if you have a shotgun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a double edged sword. It can be a good thing for aliens.
If the marine you are targetting is good with sound cues, the parasite sound cue is all he needs to know exactly where you are EVEN IF HE DIDNT SEE YOU COMING. For some reason it is difficult to find a skulk by sound when he is biting you, since the bite sound effect seems to be located on top of you and isn't very directional. But if a skulk behind you fires a parasite while running in for a bite, the moment that parasite lands you can immediately turn around and be facing in the right direction to blast him in the face. Extra dangerous if you have a shotgun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree with the point about bite sounds. The bite sounds tend to be useful to keep track of aliens.
As for parasiting: yes, it does mean that a good marine will know where you are. However, as long as you pick your location well (like in a vent where you can run back to hide from retaliation) this is a worthwhile trade off.
<!--quoteo(post=1698367:date=Jan 24 2009, 11:19 PM:name=themeatshield)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(themeatshield @ Jan 24 2009, 11:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1698367"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I disagree with the point about bite sounds. The bite sounds tend to be useful to keep track of aliens.
As for parasiting: yes, it does mean that a good marine will know where you are. However, as long as you pick your location well (like in a vent where you can run back to hide from retaliation) this is a worthwhile trade off.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats not quite what I meant. If you are far enough away that you don't think you can reach the marine to bite him, then by all means fire a parasite and hide. But when you are trying to actually kill the marine and you sneak up behind him, if he hasn't noticed you yet then parasiting is the worst thing you can do.
Sometimes I'll try to compromise and fire the parasite at the last moment right before reaching the marine and switching to bite, but I find that even then the extra split-second of warning that the marine gets from the parasite sound is often the difference between a successful munching and getting shot in the face. Skulks are right to be afraid of marines at long range, but that doesn't mean the marine stops being dangerous once the skulk gets next to him -- you still have to do something to keep those crosshairs off your tender skin, and parasiting works against that.
Granted the bite sound isn't totally useless for a marine, and there's definately something to be said for the silence upgrade, but keep in mind that biting someone actually plays two different sounds -- one that originates at your jaws, and one that originates in the center of the thing being bitten (in this case a marine). The sound on the thing being bitten is actually louder than the sound of the bite itself, and isn't useful for finding your position since its located directly on top of the marine. So Bite Echo-location is still much harder than Parasite Echo-location.
remember the kill maps from Hl2 ep2? if so skip the next paragraph...
Kill maps are a compilation of all the player deaths on a particular map by location, the data is then translated into a "kill density" and a minimap is displayed, areas with high kill density where players die frequently are shown in red, fading to yellow in lower density areas, and on down to blue in places where people rarely get killed.
I think kill maps could fullfill the role of teaching people where they should ambush, you could filter the data to show kill densities for SULKS killing MARINES in the first 5 minutes of a round, and then display this kill map as a hint during loading times, or maybe even make this map available during normal play... could also use it to show people where good places to defend are, or where aliens have an advantage etc by filtering the data differently... (IE this room has a positive Alien kill ratio, or the team with a positive kill ration in this room tends to win...) This data would be updated once a week from a compilation of server logs... I think the law of averages would end up having this map be a pretty good indication of where the best places for a SULK to kill a MARINE in the opening minutes of a round are located. If the law of averages fails here you might be able to filter which servers contribute to the data etc...
what do you think?
Edit: Additional thoughts: might also be able to use this data directly to post visual cues, like drawing ambush icons on a player's hud, or on a mini map. Maybe even paint surfaces players tend to ambush from with glowing outlines. You could also update these hints on the fly, if the player evolved to lerk, or fade you'd give them new information on best places to go for good survival rates etc.
you can explain these features back story wise as being hints from the hive mind, because honestly that is really what they are, the collective ns game playing community telling you where you have the best chances of being successful.
Btw could there be some 'GO' communication for this too? If you can get multiple aliens to ambush together, you'll want to have them attacking at the same time too. A simple communication telling that one player is going to break the ambush and go for the marine could be really useful.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1699458:date=Feb 4 2009, 12:49 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Feb 4 2009, 12:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1699458"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Like a countdown timer?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And if you wanted to get fancy, maybe you could try and compensate for lag to make it synchronized across the viewing players.
<!--quoteo(post=1699458:date=Feb 4 2009, 05:49 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Feb 4 2009, 05:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1699458"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Like a countdown timer?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Either a countdown or just 'CHAAARGE'. Anything is better than going in after you hear the first bite and missing the best timing by a second or two. Random gunfire makes you wonder whether someone just peeked at the group or committed to a rush. At those points someone confirming the attack call could help a lot.
Comments
I just can't see why anyone is ambushing a marine without para in the first place. Everyone does that here and there, but it's most often easier to land a parasite while they are approaching and then consider the ambush on some nearby area. For skulks without bhop there are probably even more spots where it's no point in ambushing, so just go ahead, take a para and reconsider the situation.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If a commander calls a hive and you aren't recovering from a large tumor, you already know where the skulks will be. I don't know about Euros, but I usually put my pistol crosshairs over where parasiting skulks will probably be. Those parasites will cost the skulk a large chunk of its health, which means that it has to run back to heal before being able to ambush.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm most often sticking a little above the expected spot or standing a little off from it or something. It's still a reflex battle, but at least you can't blindly whip me out and you've got way fewer choises for positioning than I do. Situational stuff, bust most of the time skulk has quite a few good alternatives for parasiting spot. Unless you're able to snap reflex all of them and protect yourself from the potential ambushes, you're going to get paraed quite soon.
X amount of ingame TF 2 achievements
under the skulk section.
examples
Ambush
Ambush 600 players. requirement must be with in 5 yards of player motionless out of LoF uncloaked before before engagement, A target must die.
Invisible pray
Cloak Ambush 500 players. same as ambush, but marines cant of cross haired over you while cloaked. - deters creeping down a hall way strait at rines at ground lvl.
A true predator
Ambush 55 players in 45 minutes on one map. same as ambush but with time constraint.
True meditation
Ambush 10 marines after a 30 second motionless camp
Jump dat ######
Ambush 20 marines with one or more players also ambushing
Patience pays off
ambush and kill 3 or more marines 8 times in one ambush
Only the wise prosper
Ambush and kill 5 or more marines 4 times in one ambush
soften the blow
Ambush 8 no armor marines with a parasite and two chops
Lethal step
Ambush 8 no armor marines with a parasite and a focus chop
Screaming death
Ambush 4 marines that have noticed your hiding spot with leap
Did someone hear a grenade
Ambush 3 or more players 8 times with xenocide
Tagem and bag emm
Parasite 2000 marines
This ones marked for death
Parasite 200 marines and ambush those marines
Death order
Parasite 600 marines and let someone else ambush them
Kill order
Parasite 20 marines and let someone else ambush them in 20 minutes
Magic tricks
parasite a marine from 10 yards away and have them ambushed within 8 seconds of parasite. 16 times
Slight of hand
parasite 2 marines from 20 yards away and have them ambushed within 8 seconds of parasite. 8 times
Wrum on a hook
Take 25% or more damage while your back is turned on the marine who needs to be ambushed within 4 seconds by another player. 8 times
I was only trying to see
Take damage front on from 10 or more yards away marine must be ambushed by another player. 8 times
The traps this way
lure a marine into a OC and have another player ambush him or the OC.
must take 25% or more damage in the rear.
Up here looks good
Use the follow command and have 800 friendly players join you in a successfully ambush.
We cant move come too us
Have a gorge heal you while motion less for 10 seconds in a ambush location after a ambush. 12 times.
See if they fall for that again
Cuckle in a ambush location 100 times after a successfully ambush while motion less for ten seconds.
Silent but deadly
Ambush 100 marines with silence
They are coming
Ambush 100 marines with scent of fear
Swift kill
Ambush 100 marines with celerity
Cannon fodder
Clear a mine and Ambush with carapace
Mine sweeper
Clear 12 mines with carapace, a ambush must take place in that area with in 30 seconds.
Missed by that much
Redemption three times mid ambush, must make a successfully ambush on one or more marines
Lucked out again
redemption 3 times and hope another player succeed at the ambush
Didn't we just do this
redemption 3 times with out a successful ambush
Slow and steady
Regen too full health motionless in a ambush location 10 times
Fire cant burn me
Get burnt light on fire in a ambush and regen till it goes out 10 times
A single lop
Ambush with focus and one shot 50 marines
I am right in front of you
Ambush 10 marines at ground lvl cloaked
I knew there were two
Ambush and kill 2 marines with scent of fear
Home turf
Ambush 100 marines while on infestation
Behind enemy lines
Ambush 50 marines while in enemy territory
Ill get him
Ambush 20 marines while a friend is in line of site chewing a res node
Watch my back
have another player ambush 50 marines while you chew a marine res node
baby sitting
ambush 50 marines while they attack a res node
thats my gorge ######
ambush marine killing a gorge 20 times
stay away from my gorge
ambush a marine knifing a gorge 10 times
you know the drill
ambush a marine after the gorge gives the signal 50 times
did you fart
ambush 50 marines while in spore
its not the spoon that bends
ambush 75 marines while in umbra
sweet chin screech
ambush 75 marines with primal scream in effect
Let the big guy go first
Ambush marines while a Ono's is taking damage 20 times
Clean up crew
Ambush marines while a fade is taking damage 20 times
Trained attack skulks
Ambush a HA with 2 or more skulks
Meals on wheels
Ambush a JP
In Constance
Ambush a marine with a grenade primed
Micro wave dinners
Ambush a marine coming through a phase gate
I was just cloned
Ambush a marine fresh out of a infantry portal
That was close
Ambush a beconed marine and survive to tell the tail
Spit him out
Ambush a commander who willingly steps out of his chair
You will get this one evenly
Ambush a commander on CC destruction
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
REWARD
If completed pockets of certain achievements
Instant gratification
must complete
XX-XX listed achievements above
or must achieve
This select title based on having this ambush achievement *tick
This select title based on having this ambush achievement *tick
This select title based on having this ambush achievement *tick
This select title based on having this ambush achievement *tick
Then player receives leap for the first 20 seconds of a map
Scout me be
same as above ether a certain amount of achievements or tick off the require ments for a few titles based around parasite achievements
Then player receives scent of fear for the first 40 seconds of the map, as skulk.
Bait her up
If player achieves a bunch of baiting achievements then player gets carapace as skulk for the first 60
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Keep em untested Rewards
Keep on striking
If player has achievements DOT DOT DOT and reward Instant gratification
And player ambushes successfully 4 times grant celerity for ten seconds and silence and cloak + 1 res
Keep on tracking
If player has complete a select few achievements and has achieved the reward Scout me be and player parasites 10 marines player gains scent of fear for 3 seconds adrenaline for 5 seconds and celerity for three seconds
Keep on baiting
blah blah blah something about do this do that and make sure you have Bait her up completed and player successfully baits marines through 2 ambushes player gains carapace celerity regen for a minute.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
let me put that another way
active learning with goal plus reward plus constant patting if you do the right thing. and its not done in a tutorial area. multiple things can tick off at once, numbers are all subject to change but most of them are fairly spot on.
lol
I don't know how TF2 system works, but this seems quite nice. I don't know if is necessary to give start game advantages to who unlock they, mainly because it would require even more balancing. This system probally can be aplied to other classes and also the marines, prompting the player playing in both sides and with all weapons/classes disponible <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
A complementar idea. Maybe there be levels to achievements. After doing something once (like ambushing), you receive the level 1 insignia, a crappy one. To earn better ones, you have to repeat that once unlocking the better ones.
For example, the...
<!--quoteo(post=1697534:date=Jan 12 2009, 03:03 PM:name=NEX9)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NEX9 @ Jan 12 2009, 03:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1697534"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tagem and bag emm
Parasite 2000 marines<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
..would be like:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Level 1
First target
Parasite a marine
Level 2
"I can see you..."
Parasite 25 marine
Level 3
Oficial Parasiter
Parasite 250 marine and 10 buildings
Level 4
Drawing yellow circles everywhere
Parasite 750 marine and 15 buildings
Level 5
Tag' em n' bag em
Parasite 1500 marine and 30 buildings
Level 6
Paramaniac
Parasite 4500 marine and 50 buildings
Level 7
"You cannot hide from the hive..."
Parasite 7500 marine and 100 buildings
Final Level (always serious name)
Parasite Master
Parasite 20000 marine and 300 buildings<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...just examples.
What he said.
the window of time that you have these abilitys is miniscule. and its going to take someone months of active partisipation to unlock em.
leap for the first 10-20 seconds of a map is really too only get you to the front faster which is honoustly needed in some maps, if a marine rushes too that front as well it may help a little in takeing him down granted.
take veil for exsample, the hives sub sector, game begins. it takes a skulk pushing fairly hard to get there in 15-20 seconds and set up for ambush. if that ambush fails, marines are in your hive before you know it, the gorge in over look is dead. so you cant spawn and get back to there in time. it's only a 3 second run from the west junction ambush location to over look for the marines, you cant ambush above the door leading into the hive as you have just spawned and still dont have your bearings, you now have marines looking down a really long coridor shooting at you, and can clearly pistal whip 4 spawn locations.
the game doesnt swing that easly on the other foot
aliens ambush sucessfully now are you suggesting they throw away every thing your trying to get them todo and rush MS?. cos if you arnt and want them to keep ambushing that means rince and repeat camp the same ambush location spread out and fall back a bit, or move up a door or two/ambush lcoation. but thats just them trying to stick to your constraints. lets say we got for the fast win, your asking damaged skulks to go through a room that most definately still has a marine in it hideing behind a rez tower plenty of distance he knows you just ambushed his buddies. so you need to take him down going to cost you time health and maybe skulks if you attempt to run past him to get to spawn it could cost you health and skulks. you get to spawn has com been building or has another marine, nearly always another marine 33% chance hes heard you depending on if hes building in the room watching the coridor heading to topo, or watching the skylight coridor were his mates just got taken out. thats a long coridor if hes camping this your prolly screwed. if not you gotta travel that coridor take him out get into positon to take out the next wave of marines most likely coming out in pairs and be positioned to watch for com or if hes pushed hard for obst for early motion be careful of energy cos he may just becon. the other foot on that how many marines did you just ambush weres the last marine did any marines go topo side? if he sneaks back from topo your not going to see him line you up. you cant get in a ideal position to take him out or avoid his fire were you can still chew those ip's
so if you spread your forces too thin and set up a ambush above those locations from the front to the hive (so west junk, over look, maybe system way pointing) a few marines rushing that way are going too total your team, and have a nasty advantage were they have you sealed in your hive.
now you throw a bunch of players in the mix some hard core active players
now you may get one or two players with rewards unlocked now you have the potental to set up a ambush maybe at west skylight with a few bunny hoping skulks with leap.
maybe they just want to get to west junk with out being seen or heard so the the nubmer of ambushing aliens in that area is shrouded with the unknown, as apose to marines rushing west junk and knowing they heard 2 or more skulks set up above the door.
maybe your ambushes will work a little better with a parasite rewarded skulk being your eyes, your ambush para skulk says dont run in one more corner camping. or he says lone marine baiting you ad you all flee into the vent or al lswap too parasite and 4 skulks parasite the same marine to death as he creeps out the door with his buddie standing ten yards behind him waiting to kill you all if you try and ambush him.
maybe your bait skulk wont die for nothing
sure evently you will have skulks running around with most stuff all unlocked.
you may have 6 six skulks camping above a door with scent silence and armor.
but by time that first engadement goes down a minutes most likely gone past unless the marines are pushing for a seriously early rush, hopefully this will deter the first hive rush lock down strat that is commonly seen were marines end up with shot guns camping a hive room till all the aliens F4 6 minutes into the game cos they have been dieng repeatedly for 5 minutes to campers
As for the active rewards or the pat on the back reward for doing good repeatedly
sure you base life form is limited as a skulk, but most people arnt going to spend majority of there time as a skulk if they can help it, so you have a reward system were if all else is done you have this ability to keep that play style tuned and recive something from it.
Are you going to beable to get away with 4 ambushes as a skulk do you have the time the patence, motions going to deter you, phase gates reduce the number of choke points to ambush from, armor and weapon upgrades make it a high risk endever and marine armor upgrades make you a fish in a barrel, not to mention other kharraa upgradeing life forms and springing your ambush before its due, also while your waiting on rines how long before you have enough res to upgrade life forms. new life forms mean people start spreading thiner to cover a larger area of the map, how offtan are you going to beable to work with other kharraa to get those sucessfull ambushes.
sure the rewards i have listed might be a bit to much you may have them for too long but players need a pyshical reward or they arnt going to go bat ###### crazy over trying to achive the achivements
take keep on scouting for exsample,
parasiteing ten marines is quite common, but thats going to be achieved 3 times a map, and its percs are really only going to help in a situation were your para procs ether the first or second marine para'ed in a large group of marines in coming in that situation you have no energy you just used it all, it would be nice to see if you missed any marines and the boost of celeritys going to help you duck in and out paraing now that they all have pistals on you.
sure if it procs on a lonely marines you have this tiny window to find more marines and a bit of speed to get to them, maybe ten marines is a tad low though, but if you actively parasiteing 3-4 times a games a nice amount of times to get this tiny little perk, it also adds a new dynamic to active and subconsious play style you can count ok thats 8 marines two more then i get the buff so i can utilise it fully hum ok if i para this solo rine i cant para the next solo rine i want it to proc on a group so i can know the situation from all angles and improve my chances on chooseing my fight wisely
but basicaly there needs to be a active benfital reward for achieveing said goals it cant have too much of a effect on the game, but it needs too be enough that players will get that play style locked down
you can also flip the shoe on the other foot and give vanila marines perks for culling aliens out side of ten yards and a few for killing aliens out side of 20 yards or with different guns and the odd nade again embeding into marines that theire best chance is to keep a bigger distance from the karraa to them giveing them perks like "Kevlar coated" 9mm rounds in there pistal for the first 20 seconds of the game, or "Freashly sighted", in lmg shoots more accurately for 25 seconds of a map, "Fully charged", marine gains bateries for their scope for frist 35 seconds of a new game.
Active rewards/pats on the back
so nilla rine ulocks all his achivments gets the rewards lsited above can now earn active rewards
For killing 8 skulks 20 yards out with lmg gain "PIG stopers" next clip of ammo each bullet does one or two extra points of damage. its not based on time but he could reload after half a clip he may not reload and get court haveing to reload cos he wants to use every bullet.
pistal whiping 10 skulks 20 yards out, gain "exstended clip" next pistal clip of bullets has 5 more rounds in it
shot gun 5 skulks 15 yards out gain "Just like skeet" load shot gun with a slug instead of gaguged pallets
grenade 3 skulks 20 yards out gain dud grenade marine gains a extra grenade when thrown doesnt go off but the grenade can be shot at to make it exsplode
again keeping marines at a distance rewarding them from killing stupid aliens who run head on at them down a coridor, With tiny brief buffs.
for a noob hes going to go wow what did i do to get that, ill try and do it again.
for a average player hes going to go ok i got this coming up use it wisely.
for a pro hes going to go its nice, but i am busy i need to go here and do this right now the game depends on it.
besides pro or tonie play could turn it off if you wanted to get all pantsy about it and id imagine servers could turn it off if they seen fit.
granted you will get a few achivement help servers crops up, but hopefully going there and people helping each other achive these things players will learn ###### this is more usefull than dieing to a curtain of lead 15 yards from my meal
EDIT: See comment for details, specifically the NSLearn articles.
and it doesn't help gameplay to have to grind achievements to get fun stuff to play with
and secondly the suggestion is for achivments that teach correct play so that those that do the right thing and master it get a pat on the back and those that dont know can randomly proc it or stumble across it try it out and find a new method to better their skill and get a pat on the back for it.
The most appropriate suggestion to fix the issue has been used for decades and that is for a tangable reward for learning without a boreing tutorial, lets see how many times your puppy drops/lays if you never speak posative too it pat it and give it a treat. what happens if your dog needs to lay to avoid a on coming truck, hes going to get hit every time. hes not going to sit there and listen let alone understand you talk too him and demonstrate all the tricks and things he needs to do and what not to do. its a puppy it just wants to play.
Let it play.
besides radix its not the sharman your ment to beat, your ment to kill other things. i am ment to kill the sharman.
but yes radix maybe those purples will give you a slight advantage if you still feel like running strait at the sharman letting him nuke you from a distance, maybe you will get two swings off instead of one hes still going to heal once your dead. but if you LOS ambush him were you know you can normaly get 4 swings off and die or kill him, then yes those purples and that 2000 game hours is going to be worth it, to occationaly ambush and know your going to get 5 hits off at a increased crit rate and kill him, cos you have put in 2000 hours of LoS ambushing and not 2000 hours of running strait at him while he nukes you.
you might get accused of walling on pubs if you do that
If the marine you are targetting is good with sound cues, the parasite sound cue is all he needs to know exactly where you are EVEN IF HE DIDNT SEE YOU COMING. For some reason it is difficult to find a skulk by sound when he is biting you, since the bite sound effect seems to be located on top of you and isn't very directional. But if a skulk behind you fires a parasite while running in for a bite, the moment that parasite lands you can immediately turn around and be facing in the right direction to blast him in the face. Extra dangerous if you have a shotgun.
If the marine you are targetting is good with sound cues, the parasite sound cue is all he needs to know exactly where you are EVEN IF HE DIDNT SEE YOU COMING. For some reason it is difficult to find a skulk by sound when he is biting you, since the bite sound effect seems to be located on top of you and isn't very directional. But if a skulk behind you fires a parasite while running in for a bite, the moment that parasite lands you can immediately turn around and be facing in the right direction to blast him in the face. Extra dangerous if you have a shotgun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a double edged sword. It can be a good thing for aliens.
If the marine you are targetting is good with sound cues, the parasite sound cue is all he needs to know exactly where you are EVEN IF HE DIDNT SEE YOU COMING. For some reason it is difficult to find a skulk by sound when he is biting you, since the bite sound effect seems to be located on top of you and isn't very directional. But if a skulk behind you fires a parasite while running in for a bite, the moment that parasite lands you can immediately turn around and be facing in the right direction to blast him in the face. Extra dangerous if you have a shotgun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree with the point about bite sounds. The bite sounds tend to be useful to keep track of aliens.
As for parasiting: yes, it does mean that a good marine will know where you are. However, as long as you pick your location well (like in a vent where you can run back to hide from retaliation) this is a worthwhile trade off.
As for parasiting: yes, it does mean that a good marine will know where you are. However, as long as you pick your location well (like in a vent where you can run back to hide from retaliation) this is a worthwhile trade off.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats not quite what I meant. If you are far enough away that you don't think you can reach the marine to bite him, then by all means fire a parasite and hide. But when you are trying to actually kill the marine and you sneak up behind him, if he hasn't noticed you yet then parasiting is the worst thing you can do.
Sometimes I'll try to compromise and fire the parasite at the last moment right before reaching the marine and switching to bite, but I find that even then the extra split-second of warning that the marine gets from the parasite sound is often the difference between a successful munching and getting shot in the face. Skulks are right to be afraid of marines at long range, but that doesn't mean the marine stops being dangerous once the skulk gets next to him -- you still have to do something to keep those crosshairs off your tender skin, and parasiting works against that.
Granted the bite sound isn't totally useless for a marine, and there's definately something to be said for the silence upgrade, but keep in mind that biting someone actually plays two different sounds -- one that originates at your jaws, and one that originates in the center of the thing being bitten (in this case a marine). The sound on the thing being bitten is actually louder than the sound of the bite itself, and isn't useful for finding your position since its located directly on top of the marine. So Bite Echo-location is still much harder than Parasite Echo-location.
Oxymoron : p
remember the kill maps from Hl2 ep2? if so skip the next paragraph...
Kill maps are a compilation of all the player deaths on a particular map by location, the data is then translated into a "kill density" and a minimap is displayed, areas with high kill density where players die frequently are shown in red, fading to yellow in lower density areas, and on down to blue in places where people rarely get killed.
I think kill maps could fullfill the role of teaching people where they should ambush, you could filter the data to show kill densities for SULKS killing MARINES in the first 5 minutes of a round, and then display this kill map as a hint during loading times, or maybe even make this map available during normal play... could also use it to show people where good places to defend are, or where aliens have an advantage etc by filtering the data differently... (IE this room has a positive Alien kill ratio, or the team with a positive kill ration in this room tends to win...) This data would be updated once a week from a compilation of server logs... I think the law of averages would end up having this map be a pretty good indication of where the best places for a SULK to kill a MARINE in the opening minutes of a round are located. If the law of averages fails here you might be able to filter which servers contribute to the data etc...
what do you think?
Edit: Additional thoughts:
might also be able to use this data directly to post visual cues, like drawing ambush icons on a player's hud, or on a mini map. Maybe even paint surfaces players tend to ambush from with glowing outlines. You could also update these hints on the fly, if the player evolved to lerk, or fade you'd give them new information on best places to go for good survival rates etc.
you can explain these features back story wise as being hints from the hive mind, because honestly that is really what they are, the collective ns game playing community telling you where you have the best chances of being successful.
I still like the ability of players to visually "show" each other where to ambush however.
And if you wanted to get fancy, maybe you could try and compensate for lag to make it synchronized across the viewing players.
Either a countdown or just 'CHAAARGE'. Anything is better than going in after you hear the first bite and missing the best timing by a second or two. Random gunfire makes you wonder whether someone just peeked at the group or committed to a rush. At those points someone confirming the attack call could help a lot.