Oh how difficult it is to make a populated, enjoyable, massive, world
Align
Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation
Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Or "Why I Hate MMORPGs"</div>Too slow progression through areas - not so much "i have to stop and grind these enemies or they'll kick my ***" as "if i dont grind them i wont be strong enough for the next area". Especially bad if the game isn't fun initially - "i have to work now to have fun later".
Not enough options in how to attack, which is directly related to how little fun the game is, and there being NO skill curve. This has nothing to do with action vs RPG, by the way.
Almost all of them are third person over the head games, with exceptions being notable - I enjoyed Maple Story a bit just because it was a platformer, but utltimately the ridicolous grind got the better of me. PlanetSide was cool but had some seriously frustrating elements (GOD DAMN ###### PHOENIX ROCKET LAUNCHERS AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA), plus it pretty much died. Third person over the head works for Zelda because it's a singleplayer game, basically - story and lack of lag and such things.
Everyone wants to be special, so there's a lot of variety. Unfortunately this means less quality, more quantity... Abilities are very very often less satisfying than they should be - anyone who has used the Fireball spell in Guild Wars will know what I mean. One of the best attack spells in many ways, it just produces a small flare-y effect and a 2D ring of fire sprite on the ground. Ugh.
Starting from absolute zero. You hit Giant Rat for 2 damage. The Giant Rat hits you for 3 damage. ... You drink a health potion and gain 30 health. The Giant Rat misses. ... You miss the Giant Rat. The Giant Rat misses. You slay the Giant Rat! .. fortunately we're mostly past this. Even random missing is becoming less common, or at least less frequent. In City of Heroes there was nothing quite like pumping a Stalker up with every short-term buff, starting an Assassin Strike, only for it to miss and all spent effort to drain into the sand. Like it wasn't a weak enough archetype to begin with...
Music. I know not everyone can be CAPCOM Sound Team, but either the music sucks or it stops after 20 seconds (city of heroes).
Potions. I have 5 more health potions in stock than my opponent, therefore I win.
Uninvolving characters and story. I have no idea why it works better in singleplayer games, maybe it's just some bit in the back of my head that always knows that tons of people are watching or have watched this major event of a town being destroyed or my character being knocked unconscious or whatever before, while simultaneously being in the same world as those who haven't.
Tons of little things that vary a lot with the games, like having to repair or not being able to do so without a long trip to some city.
[/rant]
My biggest gripe is with the gameplay. If every encounter is the same, then there's no reason for me to keep playing. This ties in a lot with slow progression; if the level design changed according to enemies, and their tactics to the level, that'd still keep things interesting - see singleplayer games.
Over the head perspective might be what really ruins it - walls and ceilings have some serious restrictions on them when that view is used, you have to allow people to select their targets with ranged attacks or hitting will be very difficult, obstructions can be easily seen past rather than have to be carefully navigated, surprise attacks are never very surprising..
More follows as I come to think of it.
TL;DR MMOs should stop trying to be singleplayer games EXCEPT ONLINE!! and start being massive worlds with the player as the important inhabitants.
Not enough options in how to attack, which is directly related to how little fun the game is, and there being NO skill curve. This has nothing to do with action vs RPG, by the way.
Almost all of them are third person over the head games, with exceptions being notable - I enjoyed Maple Story a bit just because it was a platformer, but utltimately the ridicolous grind got the better of me. PlanetSide was cool but had some seriously frustrating elements (GOD DAMN ###### PHOENIX ROCKET LAUNCHERS AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA), plus it pretty much died. Third person over the head works for Zelda because it's a singleplayer game, basically - story and lack of lag and such things.
Everyone wants to be special, so there's a lot of variety. Unfortunately this means less quality, more quantity... Abilities are very very often less satisfying than they should be - anyone who has used the Fireball spell in Guild Wars will know what I mean. One of the best attack spells in many ways, it just produces a small flare-y effect and a 2D ring of fire sprite on the ground. Ugh.
Starting from absolute zero. You hit Giant Rat for 2 damage. The Giant Rat hits you for 3 damage. ... You drink a health potion and gain 30 health. The Giant Rat misses. ... You miss the Giant Rat. The Giant Rat misses. You slay the Giant Rat! .. fortunately we're mostly past this. Even random missing is becoming less common, or at least less frequent. In City of Heroes there was nothing quite like pumping a Stalker up with every short-term buff, starting an Assassin Strike, only for it to miss and all spent effort to drain into the sand. Like it wasn't a weak enough archetype to begin with...
Music. I know not everyone can be CAPCOM Sound Team, but either the music sucks or it stops after 20 seconds (city of heroes).
Potions. I have 5 more health potions in stock than my opponent, therefore I win.
Uninvolving characters and story. I have no idea why it works better in singleplayer games, maybe it's just some bit in the back of my head that always knows that tons of people are watching or have watched this major event of a town being destroyed or my character being knocked unconscious or whatever before, while simultaneously being in the same world as those who haven't.
Tons of little things that vary a lot with the games, like having to repair or not being able to do so without a long trip to some city.
[/rant]
My biggest gripe is with the gameplay. If every encounter is the same, then there's no reason for me to keep playing. This ties in a lot with slow progression; if the level design changed according to enemies, and their tactics to the level, that'd still keep things interesting - see singleplayer games.
Over the head perspective might be what really ruins it - walls and ceilings have some serious restrictions on them when that view is used, you have to allow people to select their targets with ranged attacks or hitting will be very difficult, obstructions can be easily seen past rather than have to be carefully navigated, surprise attacks are never very surprising..
More follows as I come to think of it.
TL;DR MMOs should stop trying to be singleplayer games EXCEPT ONLINE!! and start being massive worlds with the player as the important inhabitants.
Comments
But yeah, it's not likely to change. Darkfall is looking promising though.
EDIT: Ah, but I forgot the most important part: what do YOU dislike (a lot) about MMOs?
<!--quoteo(post=1697166:date=Jan 5 2009, 12:02 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Align @ Jan 5 2009, 12:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1697166"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not enough options in how to attack, which is directly related to how little fun the game is, and there being NO skill curve. This has nothing to do with action vs RPG, by the way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never really felt this way. Most MMO's I've played have a good variety of abilities and character types. They try to introduce abilities slowly to ease the learning curve. A good example of why this is smart: I got a Lore-master to max level in Lord of the Rings Online 2 years ago. I came back for a free weekend this year because I had fond memories of the game even though it had no real endgame. My class had been revamped and I suddenly had about 15 more abilities than i had before. I had no idea how to play my class anymore, I was completely overwhelmed, and I just didn't come back to the game.
I also think there's a huge skill curve in most MMO's, or every guild would have cleared every raid in WoW, etc. And obviously not everyone can top the pvp rankings in an mmo. Yes, unskilled people who dump every waking hour into a game can have an advantage over skilled people with less time, but I have been in guilds that wiped on bosses in WoW all night every night, making little to no progress, because they had no skill whatsoever <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Everyone wants to be special, so there's a lot of variety. Unfortunately this means less quality, more quantity... Abilities are very very often less satisfying than they should be - anyone who has used the Fireball spell in Guild Wars will know what I mean. One of the best attack spells in many ways, it just produces a small flare-y effect and a 2D ring of fire sprite on the ground. Ugh.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess some games are better at this than others. WoW, for all its popularity, doesn't really have very impressive spell/skill animations... I'm really impressed by Warhammer Online's spell visuals though. I can really see my magus tossing badass cones of shadow magic around, summoning dark storms, cursing swarms of Order folks all at once, tossing them around like ragdolls, etc...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Starting from absolute zero. You hit Giant Rat for 2 damage. The Giant Rat hits you for 3 damage. ... You drink a health potion and gain 30 health. The Giant Rat misses. ... You miss the Giant Rat. The Giant Rat misses. You slay the Giant Rat! .. fortunately we're mostly past this. Even random missing is becoming less common, or at least less frequent. In City of Heroes there was nothing quite like pumping a Stalker up with every short-term buff, starting an Assassin Strike, only for it to miss and all spent effort to drain into the sand. Like it wasn't a weak enough archetype to begin with...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think most of the big-name games are smart enough to avoid this these days. Usually I find myself able to, like, 2 shot newbie mobs in most games, and they only start to take longer to kill later on.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Music. I know not everyone can be CAPCOM Sound Team, but either the music sucks or it stops after 20 seconds (city of heroes).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah, music in most MMO's is sub-par or outright sucks. LotRO is a notable exception - I even have those orchestrals on my Zune... I'm always amazed at how many people play without sound outright, though. It gives you such an advantage to be able to hear what's going on around you...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Potions. I have 5 more health potions in stock than my opponent, therefore I win.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Meh, I've always been anti-potion and I generally still kick ass in MMO's. My warlock once got kicked out of a semi-famous power guild in WoW for not carrying enough potions, even though I still managed to top the damage meters and rarely die. They definitely still are a sort of unfair advantage for people who have no life and can spend hours grinding for potions before pvp or a dungeon run.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Uninvolving characters and story. I have no idea why it works better in singleplayer games, maybe it's just some bit in the back of my head that always knows that tons of people are watching or have watched this major event of a town being destroyed or my character being knocked unconscious or whatever before, while simultaneously being in the same world as those who haven't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've always been guilty of being pretty oblivious to MMO plots... I page through the quests without reading them, etc -_- really, when it comes to MMO's, I just want the game to be fun to play.
I guess my TL;DR is that one shouldn't expect an MMO to be the messiah and we have to just take them at face value. If it's not fun to level, don't play it. If it's fun to level but it's not fun to be max level, quit at max level or roll a different character. You've also gotta ask yourself once in a while whether you're really having fun in a game, or whether you're just addicted... and walk away if it's the latter.
we did say this about AoC, and Vanguard, and those didn't exactly meet everyone's expectations... I think hype is the enemy of MMO's - if you expect too much, you're going to be disappointed, because there will never be a perfect game...
And it shut down.
Sounds like you want an mmo without any mmo aspects. Sucks to be you.
--Scythe--
<!--quoteo(post=1697194:date=Jan 5 2009, 07:14 PM:name=DiscoZombie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DiscoZombie @ Jan 5 2009, 07:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1697194"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->we did say this about AoC, and Vanguard, and those didn't exactly meet everyone's expectations... I think hype is the enemy of MMO's - if you expect too much, you're going to be disappointed, because there will never be a perfect game...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hype isn't the killer, making crappy games is the killer. Both AoC and Vanguard had SERIOUS issues at launch, and honestly, neither of them have cleared up from what I have read. WAR would be a better example of over hype. It is a good solid game, but many people have been disappointed (well, whined on forums) that it failed to meet their expectations.
<!--quoteo(post=1697207:date=Jan 6 2009, 01:52 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Swiftspear @ Jan 6 2009, 01:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1697207"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Have you tried hellgate london? I'd say that game addresses quite well most of those problems... The unfortunate thing is it introduces a whole range of other problems (lag bugs and a mostly stupid storyline)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
HG:L is EXACTLY what he doesn't want. "Single player, just ONLINE!". HG:L was a diablolike, aka, no MMO aspect of it, just instances where you could (if you wanted to) team up.
I get where Align is coming from, and I would love to see a game like this work, but so far they have all fallen on their faces due to various reasons, the only exception is EVE.
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadowbane" target="_blank">Shadowbane</a> never managed to draw a good crowd. Probably b/c it is high on the complexity, low on the forgiveness, and low on the polish.
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neocron" target="_blank">Neocron</a> Just sucked.
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planetside" target="_blank">Planetside</a> failed eventually. I always assumed it was due to bugs and lack of things to do. I mean, Day 1 you could end up being part of a full system take over, which is about as epic as it got, however there was nowhere to go from there. I mean, it would take about a month to be able use just about all the equipment in the game, a bit longer (iirc) to be able to get a BFM, and longer still if you wanted to be able to use a galaxy and a BFM with out recerting.
And EVE is still going strong, it is all about interacting with other humans, the single player aspect is there if you want, but to really progress it is all about playing with (or screwing over) others.
I think the issue is that the standard formula works DAMN well. As it stands, we have seen it just about perfected in WoW (blah blah, wow sucks, say that to the billions of players), and no one has managed to get the other path working really well. EVE and PS are good examples of the opposite sides. EVE kinda sucks to get into unless you have friends to help set you up, a corp to run with, and massive amounts of time to train up skills. If you complete all of the holoroom stuff in PS you end up with 6 certs, which is enough for just about ANYTHING in the game (I think the top tier vehicles take more, but that is it), which makes the game GREAT for beginners, but nowhere to really go after that.
So, you need a player driven world and game, where any one can hop in and play with the big boys (or at least feel like they are doing SOMETHING), but still give the long time subs something to do that is fun and keeps them around.
Sounds like you want an mmo without any mmo aspects. Sucks to be you.
--Scythe--<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
a MMO without being a MMORPG, yes
like planetside
or darkfall
like planetside
or darkfall<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honestly, Darkfall looks like it is just going to be the next Shadowbane.
It's gotta be worth a try, at any rate.
It's gotta be worth a try, at any rate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
go try out Shadowbane. It is an open worldish, open PvP game. Oh and it is free now.
If you like getting ganked, I am sure it is fun.
Same reason I will be avoiding darkfall like the plague. The type of player those games attract are NOT what I am interested in.