The Scout Update is Next
moultano
Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
in Off-Topic
<div class="IPBDescription">Post your ideas.</div><a href="http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=2096" target="_blank">http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=2096</a>
Here's my suggestion:
ROCKET BAT!
Secondary fire on the bat causes the scout to ride it like a broomstick. Fire shoots out of the end and sends him flying forward in the direction he's facing faster than sentries can track him (or most players.)
The advantage of this on maps like dustbowl and goldrush is that it allows him to get past the enemy lines and deal damage behind the scenes. He's fine 1 on 1 vs any class, it's the spam he can't handle.
Here's my suggestion:
ROCKET BAT!
Secondary fire on the bat causes the scout to ride it like a broomstick. Fire shoots out of the end and sends him flying forward in the direction he's facing faster than sentries can track him (or most players.)
The advantage of this on maps like dustbowl and goldrush is that it allows him to get past the enemy lines and deal damage behind the scenes. He's fine 1 on 1 vs any class, it's the spam he can't handle.
Comments
######. I know a spy who is cackling madly as he reads this. Backstab someone, pick up their fallen weapon, instantly have more cloak ready? We'll NEVER catch that guy now, he's already slippery enough as it is.
######. I know a spy who is cackling madly as he reads this. Backstab someone, pick up their fallen weapon, instantly have more cloak ready? We'll NEVER catch that guy now, he's already slippery enough as it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Holy nuts. I hate spies so much already. More cloak will be teh suck, I can only imagine.
Also, better dispensers mean harder engineer nests <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" />
Also the spy gets a cloak recharge! haha, awesome! Maybe too awesome though! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Can be thrown or is dropped upon death. Disables technical equipement (Sentries, teleports, dispensers, medi-guns) for 10 seconds in a 5 meter radius. A scout that gets close can disable an engi castle or force a medic-HW combo to retreat.
Itembox, replaces pistol.
Allows the scout to collect ammo and health at a dispenser and then give it to teammates. Allows the scout to support front line troops. Promotes use of scouts in dustbowl, cause you dont need to retreat with your medic combos in order to restock.
Wooden bat, replaces medtal bat.
If you hit a players head, the bat will make them see stars for 10 seconds (there would be stars floating round the players head, obstructing its view) . The wooden bat will break in the process, requiring you to get a new one at a dispenser or cabinet.
The scout is a delicate class to mess with- how effective he is is totally dependant on his aim. For that reason I hope there's no nerfs/buffs/unlocks for his scattergun but Valve have made it clear TF2 is about promoting teamwork not skill so I imagine there'll be some fancy scattergun replacement to appease those who can play in a team but can't hid the broad side of a barn door.
-Functions: Single (alt. double) loaded gun which knocks sentries lock-on straight up. Only works within targeting range of turret. Little to no damage on everyone/everything.
-Pros: Can run past a turret without actually threatening it, requires some luck, like, shooting a turret and jumping over it will only speed up the lock-on process. Can assist other players vs turret. Needs timing (you can save the shot til low on health).
-Cons: You obviously loose your pistol as a backup weapon and long range capabilities. Needs timing (shoot too early and you still might not make it).
-Why: You get an extra chance vs a turret when scouting around, can actually run past one in a low-player activity zone. How often isn't a way inaccessible because the turret on the stairs/hole/whatever is just having a small peak at the furthest path?
-Possible Tweaks:
GUN HOLDS MORE SHOTS PER CLIP.
Spin turret randomly between 45-180 degrees in either direction.
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---Jump gun---
-Scattergun with secondary fire used as a additional jump. Less damage. Cooldown will become greater the longer you remain in air, to avoid jetpack scouts. Minimum extra height is gained but momentum is increased forward.
-Pros: React mid air to threats after double jumping, get an extra boost to one direction. Reach further.
-Cons: Each "jump" sacrifices a shot, which could have been used on an enemy instead. Lower damage means you will have trouble with counter-scouts and overall lethality. Large jumps can be fatal.
-Why: Allows players with dodging favoured to play more defensive, makes further ledges accessible, easier to avoid turrets and ground hogging pyros.
Possible Tweaks: Not a full jump is granted when used, only a portion enough to maintain altitude.
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---Sledgehammer / Masterbat---
-Functions: Knocks players away, much less damage, crit adds additional knockrange but no extra damage. Slower swing.
-Pros: Knock someone down a pit, whack someone and run away easier. Keep single targets off your capping point. Juggle daft people.
-Cons: Fatality is much lower, fewer chances to get a hit in, not as fun to whack whimsy heavies with, not as scout-ish (small, fast, irritating).
-Why: Add an additional weapon to the dodging favoured kind of scout, survivability over suicidal damage. Cap points easier. Keep close quarter players at a distance.
Possible Tweaks: Strength of knockback, lower or equal to airburst
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---Bat-bat---
-Functions: Steal 50% of damage on crits to health, so doing 105 damage (normal crit) halves damage DEALT to 52,5 but gives you the OTHER half as health.
-Pros: Every enemy is a potential health source. Still reliable normal batting damage. Survive that extra rocket/bomb when they shoot it at point blank as you swat away on them. Potentially extremely annoying when under kritzkrieg.
-Cons: No powerful crit, whacking and critting someone with full health wastes it. Risk that it wont even occur. Not a significant amount health gained on one hit. Whacking someone furiously is less likely to kill him.
-Why: Scouts loves stealing medpacks because they can reach them first, with this they can go nuts over ambushing unknowing targets and running for snipers. They can stay longer on the front. Stupidly fun annoying overhealed people who cannot aim good, "Why WONT HE DIE". Higher chance to avoid "lame" ground shooting while target suffers death himself. Overall better chances to stay alive.
Possible Tweaks: ALWAYS RECEIVE 50% CRIT DAMAGE BACK REGARDLESS OF ENEMY HEALTH, lower non-crit damage, slower swing, higher health steal percentage.
Replaces both because it's too good to just loose one weapon for - from what I hear, scouts are overpowered in nocrit servers due to no instant death shots.
Call it the Black Box.
Ineffective against backstabs and headshots, I suppose, but does too work against kritz.
Single loaded gun which knocks sentries lock-on straight up. Only works within targeting range of turret. Inaccurate as the flaregun. Little to no damage everyone/everything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cute. Kinda like the idea. Fits in with the "God, I am giving up my PISTOL! But now I can actually DO somethign against SGs..."
<!--quoteo(post=1695983:date=Dec 12 2008, 02:32 PM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Svenpa @ Dec 12 2008, 02:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695983"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Jump gun
Scattergun with secondary fire used as a additional jump. Less damage. Cooldown will become greater the longer you remain in air, to avoid jetpack scouts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
a nifty idea, but I would be worried about scouts getting places they just flat out shouldn't be able to (might take a lot of reworking of maps)
<!--quoteo(post=1695983:date=Dec 12 2008, 02:32 PM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Svenpa @ Dec 12 2008, 02:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695983"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sledgehammer / Masterbat (Here I go again)
Knocks players away, less damage, crit adds additional knockrange. Slower swing, directional (look high to whack them high and vice versa).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I actually really like the idea, my only thought would be something like Ammo for it. But honestly, I don't see any way it could be good with out begin OP.
<!--quoteo(post=1695983:date=Dec 12 2008, 02:32 PM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Svenpa @ Dec 12 2008, 02:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695983"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bat-bat
Steal 50% of damage on crits to health, so doing 105 damage (normal crit) halves damage DEALT to 52,5 but gives you the other half as health.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really like that one.
<!--quoteo(post=1695989:date=Dec 12 2008, 03:10 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Dec 12 2008, 03:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695989"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I forget who suggested it but I like the idea of a scout latching on someone's back and yelling in their ear repeatedly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who needs a weapon for that? just bind something to "NEEDADISPENSERHERE"
So, I am looking forward to this for 2 reasons:
1) I love playing scout
2) God I am going to roast me some wienies.
However, before it comes out I am going to HAVE to disable all of the scout voice lines.
Fixed idea so Sledgehammer won't do additional DAMAGE on crits, only fly distance. Still Overpowered? in what way? Too useful as the scout can close the gap on anyone he wants swiftly enough to get at least one hit? (pits in mind) Too close to pyro perhaps. Still, all classes main weapons are ranged and a scout with melee isn't much danger to the health if he has to stand on a cp at same time, also no risk to get crit killed. It won't knock classes 10meters, 5m, tops. Add in weight check and it would have big trouble knocking the heavy any worthy distance.
Who has KB currently?
Soldier and Pyro.
Soldier is really just knock Up, and takes some skill to use (and is devastating if you are good at it).
Pyro has a very minor push back that is really just a side effect of him being able to juggle projectiles now (aka, the KB is pointless).
Now, give scouts a KB as powerful as the soldier's, and as accurate as the pyro's, and you end up with some thing that lets you instantly clear baddies from your path. I don't know if it is simply how I play scout (suicide runs), but I don't really care about killing some one, just keeping them from killing me. If I can hit em away, or better yet, to a lower level (think CP C in Gravel Pit), I personally would feel overpowered (and love every second of it). And if the KB was less powerful, more like the pyro KB, then I would never use it.
My personal hope is something different for the Scatter gun, and I am really not sure what. As it is, I hate the scatter gun (same damage as the shotguns, but horrible spread). Either somethign that ups the lethality or aids in getting the heck away from people (slow, disorient, etc). Thus why I like your extra jump idea.
The scout is a delicate class to mess with- how effective he is is totally dependant on his aim. For that reason I hope there's no nerfs/buffs/unlocks for his scattergun but Valve have made it clear TF2 is about promoting teamwork not skill so I imagine there'll be some fancy scattergun replacement to appease those who can play in a team but can't hid the broad side of a barn door.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><a href="http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=jYIMBvH0UWE" target="_blank">Watch in high quality. Watch at least to 7 minutes to see some kills that are <i>virtually unavoidabl</i>e.</a>. Spies are good for more than 1 frag per play <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Of the Spy update:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[...] what I think about the spy update with cloak refill [...] I think it's overpowered for pubs and overall makes spying a lot less challenging, a lot less sneaky, a lot less thrilling, and consequently a lot less fun. You can now stay cloaked forever, even on big maps like Badwater. You can run cycles around the entire map while hardly ever having to uncloak. It's the equivalent of the pyro update for spy.
Being invisible forever and gathering up ammo packs isn't truly being sneaky. Being sneaky is about people being fully aware of your presence and you being forced to decide when the key times are to use cloak resources to deceive them and get away.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Looking at his videos, I'd tend to agree!
Of the Spy update:
Looking at his videos, I'd tend to agree!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for sharing. That video is great.
much like OMFGninja videos
Don't really know how to fix that, though.
And remove that 2 second-long overhead backstab animation, the side stab animation is much more effective and I think the longer animation plays when your aim is perfect- which is totally messed up.
He should keep his other nerfs though- namely the time it takes to cloak and de-cloak, and maybe he should play a voice taunt when he gets a backstab kill- some players don't pay attention when their medic right next to them gets a knife in the spine.
All classes have unique dying screams for when they get crit killed, and it BAFFLES me how people can remain completely oblivious to that. When somebody right next to you gets crit killed, it usually means that a sniper is zeroed in on you or there's a spy behind you. THESE THINGS SHOULD BE CAUSE FOR ALARM.
All classes have unique dying screams for when they get crit killed, and it BAFFLES me how people can remain completely oblivious to that. When somebody right next to you gets crit killed, it usually means that a sniper is zeroed in on you or there's a spy behind you. THESE THINGS SHOULD BE CAUSE FOR ALARM.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yup, people suck, and are deaf.
That really is what it comes down to, and has been true for FPS games as long as I have been playing them.
That being said, I am still looking forward to the spy update, just so I can run around as a pyro and grief the hell out of achievement ######s <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Indeed. When you find yourself intentionally aiming to miss/fire as you approach, instead of once you reach them just because it makes the animation more usable, you know something is <b><i>wrong</b></i>.
I spent about 4 minutes lurking about the first section of the second part of Goldrush screwing with the entire (8v8) team before I eventually got cocky trying an overhead stab on a Soldier. I'd come out, backstab someone and recloak, picking up the bountiful ammo stashes throughout that area to stay cloaked and pick up health until I found my next target. There was one Soldier who made it his life's work to track me down and kill me. He was ultra suspicious, but even when I went in for a backstab and missed, cloaking immediately and picking up ammo meant I could run to the complete opposite side of where he was headed and pick up the health there. So, although I maybe only killed him 2 or 3 times, he was effectively out of the game and a lot of his teammates were also wasting time looking for me while the clock ticked down.
Later I pissed off multiple Engies, and also made it hell for them by stealing their ammo crates so they couldn't upgrade their sentries fast enough at the later chokepoints. On another map I just focused on taking out teleport exits to slow down the BLU reinforcement waves (this was on Steel so it made quite a difference). Then there's just plain sapping a sentry as you see an attacking class on your team approaching, giving the Engy no chance to save his precious gun!
I used to have real difficulties timing the cloak meter so I could escape safely, but now it's really, really easy. Too easy. And it's obvious the maps have been balanced with ammunition/metal and not cloak-refill in mind, not to mention you can stay permanantly cloaked next to a level 3 dispenser. Overall, although this makes the Spy a lot more accessible (dumbed down), for anyone truly skilled at the class (not me) it does make him overpowered imo.
All classes have unique dying screams for when they get crit killed, and it BAFFLES me how people can remain completely oblivious to that. When somebody right next to you gets crit killed, it usually means that a sniper is zeroed in on you or there's a spy behind you. THESE THINGS SHOULD BE CAUSE FOR ALARM.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are footsteps in TF2? I've NEVER heard any of that.
Anyway, I guess it's more natural for former NS players to be more keen to sounds as it pretty much was life or death whether you heard that small "tick" or not. Not a lot of games lately where it has had any great importance, except for gunfire ala COD4. Counterstrike had it tho, thinking back, that's the only game where "walk" was ever useful. Oh and half life versus the blind creature.
Water's a different matter altogether: Footsteps in water (splosh, splosh, splosh) are pretty noticeable. Great way to notice enemies coming through the water on 2fort (which is still a boring map - I have a hard time thinking of a map I like less).
And as stated before, cloaking does nothing to prevent the noise of footsteps, in or out of water.
Anyway, I guess it's more natural for former NS players to be more keen to sounds as it pretty much was life or death whether you heard that small "tick" or not. Not a lot of games lately where it has had any great importance, except for gunfire ala COD4. Counterstrike had it tho, thinking back, that's the only game where "walk" was ever useful. Oh and half life versus the blind creature.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Speaking of NS-inspired gameplay habits, there's at least one that's served me very well in pretty much all games, and that's just looking up.
Like that spy video posted earlier mentions, no one really looks up. It's not a habit you pick up in most games, but thanks to NS it's just something I do whenever I go through a doorway or something.
You'd be surprised at how many pyros, spies, soldiers and demomen you catch if you just look up when you run around.
Also, I can't play spy. At all. Whenever I get a backstab kill after sneaking through a team, I feel awesome, but I can't pull it off enough, and I don't really enjoy it. I used to enjoy playing cloaker in Planetside, and the feeling I got when I managed to sneak through an entire base in the middle of a battle in order to hack the CC is similar to the feeling I get when I get a good backstab but oddly, I found it far, far easier to sneak through a base in PS than to get one kill in TF2.
As a competitive player I used sound as much as sight when playing NS and a single sound from a skulk was enough to give you the advantage, but I found the sounds used in Source are awful- not only is it harder to pick out one footstep from another but I have problems localising them- in CS1.6 or NS you can tell direction and even distance, in Source I struggle with both.
I don't enjoy the spy for some reason... I used to love it in TFC but while the TF2 one is better I don't get into it as much.
I''m not amazing with spy (my flatmate is though!) but I don't have too much trouble getting higher than a 1:1 kill ratio with one... I don't die much though :3
Rather than playing like most spies I tend to disguise as members of my own team, peek around the corner, let them come to me and cloak. When they come around the corner I'll backstab them when they stop to look around for where that enemy engineer went :D
I'm definitely more of a pyro/medic player though; I get lots of fun out of those two :3
The majority of spies suck, and just make for point fodder for a decent player (which every one here is most likely). However, there are LOTS of crappy players out there, and thus the dumb spy tricks WORK on them.
However, most of us know one or 2 people that simply dominate on Spy.
Has anybody else noticed a decline in the number of questionable backstabs recently? I think Valve fixed up the code a little bit: maybe less of a character model is now considered 'back,' or maybe the knife range is reduced, but it seems harder now to get the sort of 'backstab' that would cause your quarry to break down in violent swearing. A Steam Friend of mine (who is a wickedly good spy) also has this opinion, and he has been complaining about the spy nerf (I wouldn't call it that), even despite the cloak-refill bonus.
For example HL:DM or Action Half-Life I can hear exactly where people are and shoot them trough walls sometimes or drop a grenade at a spot where I think they will pop out just as this grenade explodes in their face, with them thinking WTF just happened.
In TF2 I do hear the spies walking around and have spotted a few by just sound, resulting in a projectile in the general direction of this sound to make their cloak flicker. But localising sounds is quite hard in TF2 even with sennheiser. Heck add one or two heavies into the mix and this tactic flies of into space <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
I think for outflanking, good sense of my surroundings and misdirection I have FH and NS to thank for. TF2 is too much of a spam game on some maps where tactics really do no matter, just brute force and team coordination (ubers/spy sappers), but they are still nice skills to have in the areas where you can actually use these tactics (sentries tend to throw dirt on my cupcake though <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />)