Feedback from the Nofrag interview
Zamma
Join Date: 2004-05-04 Member: 28458Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2004-05-04 Member: 28458Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">...some things I don't like</div>I read the nofrag interview and thought it was a great read.
I love the idea that you are basing most of the design on NS1. Lets face the facts, you spent a good 4 years (atleast) to get the game to a state where both teams were balanced and the gameplay was fun, fast and involved brains. The only reason NS is still played today is because it's such a great game with such dynamic gameplay.
Really there is nothing wrong with it but outdated graphics and a small community.
I read this in the interview, "Our health system is similar although it's similar to Call of Duty IV in that there is no number on your display, but you definitely know how hurt you are from other feedback."
To me this is just absolutely, <b><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->RETARDED<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>. CoD4 is a game that tries to be realistic in the sense that the guns have recoil and it's dynamics are based around real life and the effects of taking damages. NS is not a realistic game. Its a fastpaced rts/fps game. The fact you'd add this stupid no-HUD element annoys me.
I feel like you are trying to make the game complex in ares which are gonna just take away from the gameplay.
I am a comeptetive gamer so I'll be honest I take the game I play seriously. I also don't know many good "non-realistic" styled games without a HUD. Quake 3? HUD. NS1? HUD. TF2? HUD. Even CSS and CS which are realistic mods understand the HUD is an important part of the game especially to the competeitve scene.
I didn't like it when you added mobile siege turrets as I thought you were straying too much from NS1 (which imho has near perfect gameplay), but at the end of the day, these mobile sieges will add a new style of play and will make the game more diverse, aslong as they are balanced.
Removing a HUD tho... and adding "feedback" effects. I'm getting worried I don't want to buy or play NS2.
Peoples feelings?
I love the idea that you are basing most of the design on NS1. Lets face the facts, you spent a good 4 years (atleast) to get the game to a state where both teams were balanced and the gameplay was fun, fast and involved brains. The only reason NS is still played today is because it's such a great game with such dynamic gameplay.
Really there is nothing wrong with it but outdated graphics and a small community.
I read this in the interview, "Our health system is similar although it's similar to Call of Duty IV in that there is no number on your display, but you definitely know how hurt you are from other feedback."
To me this is just absolutely, <b><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->RETARDED<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>. CoD4 is a game that tries to be realistic in the sense that the guns have recoil and it's dynamics are based around real life and the effects of taking damages. NS is not a realistic game. Its a fastpaced rts/fps game. The fact you'd add this stupid no-HUD element annoys me.
I feel like you are trying to make the game complex in ares which are gonna just take away from the gameplay.
I am a comeptetive gamer so I'll be honest I take the game I play seriously. I also don't know many good "non-realistic" styled games without a HUD. Quake 3? HUD. NS1? HUD. TF2? HUD. Even CSS and CS which are realistic mods understand the HUD is an important part of the game especially to the competeitve scene.
I didn't like it when you added mobile siege turrets as I thought you were straying too much from NS1 (which imho has near perfect gameplay), but at the end of the day, these mobile sieges will add a new style of play and will make the game more diverse, aslong as they are balanced.
Removing a HUD tho... and adding "feedback" effects. I'm getting worried I don't want to buy or play NS2.
Peoples feelings?
Comments
Removing the hud is already quite retarded by itself but if you make the marines "autoheal" around the corner like in cod4, it will be SUPER retarded.
Please Unknown Worlds, don't try to bably pimp my ride.
I'll comment more on this tomorrow...
Agreed. Too much new stuff and game is ruined totally. Dont make it too simple
The things I find worrying in ns2 are: masc, hud system, alien and marine movement and alien commander.
You talk about "keeping the teams totally different" but on the other hand you talk about adding alien commander, I dont see any point in a actual commander in alien team, at least if it is very similar to marine commander (sitting in a chair and not being able to move around). I hope you have some other way to implement it and for my point of view it's not needed at all.
In competitive play there usually is a alien commander in the team that tells you what to do, so it's not a new idea. Just please dont go any further with it.
The things I find worrying in ns2 are: masc, hud system, alien and marine movement and alien commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That! minus the MASC. The MASC will probably bring awesome gameplay. Everything else is eh.
<!--quoteo(post=1695137:date=Dec 4 2008, 09:18 PM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Dec 4 2008, 09:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695137"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As long as you know whether or not the next skulk bite is going to kill you I don't see how you could care whether or not you have a number. If you have the same information, it doesn't matter what format it's delivered in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because I need to know whether I have 70hp or 76hp reliably in order to make smart decisions. Not having a HUD is a big step down from having a HUD and being given some numbers. In all cases, NS and StarCraft are strategy games because they are games of numbers. It doesn't help if you don't know the numbers, that's just randomness. Who likes their fights being determined by a coin toss?
As an anecdote, if I had no way of knowing the <u>exact</u> amount of hits an enemy unit took from my workers (yes 1 hp plays a difference, especially with regeneration), I'd be losing to every early rush.
How will you know if u have enough health for one bite or two. It may be visual but still you can't calculate accurately like you can in NS atm. If i have 76 hp in NS atm and I know the comms low on res I can make sure I don't call for a med till I go below it because you are two bites either way. However if you're 75hp then you have to call for a med because you are just one.
HUDs are so key to fps games. Also as aliens I can see annoyances of wether to stay in or run as fade ect... it's just retarded.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't want NS2 to just be an NS:source. They can add a playable pinata for all I care, CAUSE IT'S NOT NS1! It's a different game and has to be unless they want people to stick to NS1 cause it's the same thing for free.
HUDs are so key to fps games. Also as aliens I can see annoyances of wether to stay in or run as fade ect... it's just retarded.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I say: as long as you can tell if you have one bite left, numbers don't matter.
You reply: but what if you can't tell if you have one bite left?
I think you sort of missed the point of my post.
You reply: but what if you can't tell if you have one bite left?
I think you sort of missed the point of my post.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no I understood. Im saying how will u know between 1hps difference? Unless they addd big nooby popups saying "1 bite left!"
I just wish the devs would see how good their game is already and just port it. Sure adding a few new things like dynamic infestation and mobile sieges is a nice way to add some spice to the game and to add something new and different but at the end of the day, NS became the biggest 3rd Party mod for HL for a reason. It's a great game. It just came out late and took too long to balance and "perfect", leading to a smaller playerbase then such games like CounterStrike.
If the devs really want to make a great game I don't see any problem in just porting ns, adding a few new little things, and just getting it advertised.
I just can't see removal of the HUD a benefit or a positive thing to draw in players or infact to keep players.
(also as a side note, I do agree with Talis, I am also worried about movement and alien commanders.)
they didn't say "there is no HUD", they said that there is no NUMBERS, all we can tell from that description is that there might be a health bar (for example), so don't get too overexcited because of the way they phrase it ;p
on the other hand, a bit less informative HUD might make the game more exciting / immersive (in survival-horrorish terms as in Alien movies)
You reply: but what if you can't tell if you have one bite left?
I think you sort of missed the point of my post.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How do you tell when you have one bite and one parasite left? What about one bite and two parasites? How can you tell if you will survive a fall?
on the other hand, a bit less informative HUD might make the game more exciting / immersive (in survival-horrorish terms as in Alien movies)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS isn't one of those games though. It isn't a Left 4 Dead game. It's gameplay has too much depth and dynamics to it. The fact is NS is a fascinating, fast paced, thinking and shooting game. Not a lets run away from zombies game. I can't see why you would take away numbers even.
Also I know this can be seen from alot of views, but putting my point out there anyway, I want to play NS2 competetively, because NS is the best competetive game out there and I want to be able to continue playing a great game with similar gameplay. As I've said sure some changes to the game will make it more interesting and a bit different, but taking away a HUD concept such as numbers is pretty (in simpleness) "non-competetive friendly". Looking at all the games around today the ones that last the longest actively are the competetive games. Take CS 1.6, it's only alive now due to it's massive popularity in the competetive side of gaming, and this is why NS has lasted so long as a 3rd party mod. People enjoy scrimming/pcwing in it. They find it interesting and professional. Lets face it, in 6 years Left 4 Dead will not be alive. It has no sustainability. It's just a fun game to muck around playing. If you want NS2 to have survivability and to get out there then you have to look at both aspects, the competetive side and the public/casual side. Personally, as a competetive player, a game without a HUD (number) system to me is just crazy. It puts me off alot.
This is getting a little weird for me. Look:
I say: as long as you can tell how many attacks it will take to kill you, it's okay.
You: But what if you can't tell how many attacks it takes to kill you?
What I'm trying to say is that if the numberless HUD gives you the same information as the numbered HUD, there is no need for numbers. Everyone keeps replying with "BUT WHAT IF IT DOESN'T GIVE YOU THE SAME INFORMATION." I would write an answer to that, but as I've pointed out twice now, the answer is self-evident.
I say: as long as you can tell how many attacks it will take to kill you, it's okay.
You: But what if you can't tell how many attacks it takes to kill you?
What I'm trying to say is that if the numberless HUD gives you the same information as the numbered HUD, there is no need for numbers. Everyone keeps replying with "BUT WHAT IF IT DOESN'T GIVE YOU THE SAME INFORMATION." I would write an answer to that, but as I've pointed out twice now, the answer is self-evident.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On the number hud I can tell that I can take two ticks of spore and a bite. How about the numberless? Or that I'm hanging around at 82 hp and 35 ap. At that point a medpack is useful because I can take a extra swipe if fades are nearby. 2 or 3 swipes. You gotta have some very accurate hud for that. One-bite isn't the only thing I want to know about my HP. That's what everyone is looking for.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->on the other hand, a bit less informative HUD might make the game more exciting / immersive (in survival-horrorish terms as in Alien movies)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think we can't get it to much survival horrorish as long as the puncline is "Defend the Galaxy. With 13-year-olds." The point is: PvP Mulitplayers rarely turn pure immersive or horrorish unless you manage to gather up 16 players able to play it like that. Which isn't going to happen. And why Turn a FPS/RTS into a horrorish game?
How can a numberless HUD give any information about your hp and ap? By blinking 56 times in red if you have 56 hp? This numberless "hud" doesn't give any information past the "you are hurt, GET MED!!" point. You have to know yourself how much damage a bite does and how much damage jumping through spore does and calculate your hp yourself.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The marines still spawn from infantry portals the same way but aliens currently spawn from "egg clusters" - eggs are produced at a certain rate and then aliens hatch out of them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Does this mean the aliens can wait and choose their time of spawnin themselves as in spawn every player on the team at the same time when the marines are shooting the hive? Could be interesting or make the game into a lollersiege marathon.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens can also morph to new lifeforms and automatically heal when they are infestation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't gestate on non-infestation areas?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You created NS2 with an objective of how many players per team in mind?
Anywhere from 4v4 up to 16v16 should be good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
16v16 on smaller than ns1 maps with no minimap? Chaos !
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think we will ship only the basic NS2 gameplay with the game. We'll let the community make Combat or any other scenarios they desire.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Finally, wombat gets killed !
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Our fans are mostly from North America (US and Canada), 2nd biggest group is Europe and the 3rd is Australia/New Zealand.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Our fans are mostly fin######s and other european morons"
"Our fans are mostly fin######s and other european morons"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
HAHAHAA
you are in the minority! Finnishlulz
If you guys sit around contemplating all the different combinations of attacks you can take with your current Health and armor points, then you deserve to fackin die. how about instead of "Taking this hit and that hit" you AVOID being hit altogether? if you die, you die.... but you TRIED to avoid it, you didn't run in thinking "its OK I can take one hit"
Just stop the crap, its a NEW game with NEW features, if you still want to play NS1, there's nobody stopping you.
AND IF YOU WERNT SO NAIVE OR LAZY, YOU WOULD CONSIDER STARTING TO LEARN LUA SO YOU CAN MAKE VANILLA NS IN THE NEW ENGINE AND STOP WHINING SO WE DON'T HAVE TO PLAY WITH YOU IN THIS FRESH NEW GAME
If you guys sit around contemplating all the different combinations of attacks you can take with your current Health and armor points, then you deserve to fackin die. how about instead of "Taking this hit and that hit" you AVOID being hit altogether? if you die, you die.... but you TRIED to avoid it, you didn't run in thinking "its OK I can take one hit"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's called thinking, I recommend trying it out before completely trashing it.
On a more serious note, why the hell shouldn't people be able to calcutate the hits? I doesn't make the game more difficult to learn, it doesn't make it much more unrealistic, it doesn't take system resoucres, it doesn't add unfair advantages, it just adds one more of those nice depth thingys that made NS addicting.
On another note, the ensl poll says 54 out of 88 people on ensl have played NS for 4+ years. I know its a silly little poll on a trolltastic and inactive site filled with random drama, but it's still a _huge_ number. I guess those little depth thingys are quite useful in keeping people into the game. 4 years, that's a big time while most gamers are on their early twenties at max.
If you guys sit around contemplating all the different combinations of attacks you can take with your current Health and armor points, then you deserve to fackin die. how about instead of "Taking this hit and that hit" you AVOID being hit altogether? if you die, you die.... but you TRIED to avoid it, you didn't run in thinking "its OK I can take one hit"
Just stop the crap, its a NEW game with NEW features, if you still want to play NS1, there's nobody stopping you.
AND IF YOU WERNT SO NAIVE OR LAZY, YOU WOULD CONSIDER STARTING TO LEARN LUA SO YOU CAN MAKE VANILLA NS IN THE NEW ENGINE AND STOP WHINING SO WE DON'T HAVE TO PLAY WITH YOU IN THIS FRESH NEW GAME<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you're clearly terrible at NS. you're clearly just another casual player who runs in willy nilly and just dies, dies, dies. NS is an RTS/FPS. It's all about res management, health management, and calculations. Knowing if you are one bite and a parasite or two bites or one swipe or one gore is key to NS. You cannot waste the commanders res yet at the same time you can't be that easy kill pushing the team back. Also as aliens, where the HPs of the aliens are so varying, and where the marine weapons vary so much in damage from lmg, pistol, knife, shotgun and hmg, you can really never tell if you are that "one hit". As a fade and lerk especially knowing your acurate health is what keeps you alive vs good players.
and HOW is it a new game. It's called NATURAL SELECTION 2. We play NATURAL SELECTION. Notice anything? ALIENS VS MARINES. Yes well done you <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->retard<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, we're playing a cotinuation or upgraded version of a game such as CSS is for CS, or CoD4 is for CoD3. Sure there will be differences but the games still the same at core. They should add new features and theres nothing wrong with it. My argument is about the HUD, a feature which changing will effect the game negatively.
I don't intend to play NS1 after NS2 comes out because I hope I won't have to. Let's face it, NS1 has no community or competetive scene, of which I want. I only play it now because its the best game out.
No one is being lazy or naive. You're just being an idiot for capslock.
If you guys sit around contemplating all the different combinations of attacks you can take with your current Health and armor points, then you deserve to fackin die. how about instead of "Taking this hit and that hit" you AVOID being hit altogether? if you die, you die.... but you TRIED to avoid it, you didn't run in thinking "its OK I can take one hit"
Just stop the crap, its a NEW game with NEW features, if you still want to play NS1, there's nobody stopping you.
AND IF YOU WERNT SO NAIVE OR LAZY, YOU WOULD CONSIDER STARTING TO LEARN LUA SO YOU CAN MAKE VANILLA NS IN THE NEW ENGINE AND STOP WHINING SO WE DON'T HAVE TO PLAY WITH YOU IN THIS FRESH NEW GAME<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol
Now, I'm not saying that removal of numerals from the HUD is a good idea, but I totally reject the idea that skill requires precise numbers. Players will adapt and the truely talented and innovate players will come out on top which is how it should be.
So many posts on these forums are depressing to read because they are nothing more than cautious conservatism where people see changes and assume the worse. I relish the opportunity to be immersed in yet another new style of play. NS brought so many new aspects to the FPS game for me, especially the third dimension of the playing field and I'll be dissapointed with NS2 if it doesn't ramp up the immersion another notch. So I say bravo to the devs if they are thinking about ideas like this. Imagine an NS2 where it was intuitive from your experience how much health both you and your enemy had left so you could really start to observe the changes in a battle and take advantage of them at the right time.
All of what I have said above does not in anyway suggest that counting hits is a bad thing. It is a very very good thing to have such depth of detal in the game so those who want to master their game have avenues to do so. I definitely think that NS2 should preserve the need for these types of decisions to be part of how you approach the game, and I would hope that changes to the HUD would be designed to improve this, not only for the veteran, but for the casual player too.
Now, I'm not saying that removal of numerals from the HUD is a good idea, but I totally reject the idea that skill requires precise numbers. Players will adapt and the truely talented and innovate players will come out on top which is how it should be.
So many posts on these forums are depressing to read because they are nothing more than cautious conservatism where people see changes and assume the worse. I relish the opportunity to be immersed in yet another new style of play. NS brought so many new aspects to the FPS game for me, especially the third dimension of the playing field and I'll be dissapointed with NS2 if it doesn't ramp up the immersion another notch. So I say bravo to the devs if they are thinking about ideas like this. Imagine an NS2 where it was intuitive from your experience how much health both you and your enemy had left so you could really start to observe the changes in a battle and take advantage of them at the right time.
All of what I have said above does not in anyway suggest that counting hits is a bad thing. It is a very very good thing to have such depth of detal in the game so those who want to master their game have avenues to do so. I definitely think that NS2 should preserve the need for these types of decisions to be part of how you approach the game, and I would hope that changes to the HUD would be designed to improve this, not only for the veteran, but for the casual player too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I will give you a "thumbs up" for a good post defending the no-HUD idea. I mean you are right in a sense, even in NS you can still predict when an enemy reloads, or is low on health or is even dead by your aim and by shooting it.
But still in a game which varies so much in damage throught the weapons, the classes, and the upgrades (even the reg), it'll be one thing to tell if you are one bite or two bites. But to accurately measure if you are that one bite and one para or one bite three paras, or wether as a fade to challenge the marine reloading knowing he's only got a pistol clip left. It will make the game more of a risk.
Surely on one side of things NS wants to make the game easier for new players. How is removing a HUD going to make the game easier? It just makes it more brain demanding.
I do understand you though puzl, and you have enlightened me a bit. But actually I guess my main worry about all of this is, "how well the devs will implement this". I mean if they implement to the extent that you can accurately tell what you can do next and make judgements on that, then sure I guess this will be no problem. But to the same extent you have to understand, with new features comes new problems. A poorly implemented no-HUD system and it could affect the game alot.
If you already have a working health system, which everyone understands, everyone can come to grips with and has no flaws what so ever. Then why change it? I'm sorry but a new no-HUD system will not ADD to gameplay. It can only really take away from gameplay.
So, what youre basically saying is, the devs suck <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
You have no faith in them to code something like this in a decent manner - thats ok. Also you believe they dont do any testing, because if they think it sucks they will surely ditch it.
But that is not really related to the no-hud idea.
Have some faith, those guys who made NS1 are makeing NS2 you know <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />