Khaara's Defeat

XCan · November 2002

<div class="IPBDescription">Time for kharaa to change strat?</div> Last night I was commanding and things really didn't went well at all. We would set up a res noz some turrets then a skulk would take everything out. That's when I decided for us to charge the khaara hive. Said that, I gave out a couple of shotties sent my men to serach for the hive which is naturally unprotected since all kharaa do is rushing with skulk. Bam! Hive dies and kharaa loses, maybe it's time for kharaa to rethink their strategy now and not rush blindly? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'>

Paranoia2MB · November 2002

lol

I was playing as a Marine and after the intial skulk rush(es) I set out by myself and I go find their generator hive. I almost take out the hive but the commander failed to supply me w/ health and ammo when i told him i was at the hive taking it out..then a skulk somehow bit me from 10 ft away and i died <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'>

Guardian · November 2002

I'm betting that the marine rush only worked because it was unexpected. If it happens more often Kharaa players should be able to adapt pretty easily.

You do have a point though, about the skulk rushes. They only work up to a point. Eventually you are just throwing yourself into turrets/marines to die and achieve nothing. Better to go into stalking mode.

Also, if the skulks didn't notice a full squad of marines suddenly missing, or DID notice and kept rushing the base anyway, it leads me to assume that...

A) They were not thinking about their strategy (aka newer players)

OR...

B) They expected their rushing to destroy your base while leaving enough time to hunt you down before you could take the hive.

Either way, I bet you couldn't do it twice <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'>

recursioNonemanarmy · November 2002

I've thought of a few questions...

1. How could things not be going well if they have one hive?
2. If they have one hive, what are you doing with upgraded weaponry?
3. Dont think you that your use of resources toward unneeded upgrades could be part of the reason why you couldnt get your turrets set up?
4. (which is more of a statement) If they had one hive and hardly any defenses then my only guess is that their gorge (if they had any) were saving up resources to build a second hive off the bat. If this was the case youre lucky you did rush their hive because your men/women obviously couldnt set up any turrets and the second they got fade you would have been pinned down in your command center. while their gorge set up pockets of oc's and dc's everywhere

Side notes: Rushing as kharaa is something I wouldnt even do. Get your skulks to their command center, yes, but dont rush. Hang around outside opening doors, peeking in, parasiting them, just keeping them worried and busy to slow them down while youre gorges build up a few resources. Then, depending on hive location you have different situations to prepare for. When theyre done wasting their resources and time at their command center run ambush strategies outside their command center. Ie: have one (or two) of your players bait them. If you do rush their command center try going around to the other side (if possible). What I mean is, if youre playing eclipse and your hive is in eclipse, rush around to the horseshoe side of their command center and rush from there. Most people will think your hive was in maintenance. You can then set up an ambush in Triad if they choose to go that way. This could also give your gorge some time to set up a resource and set up a couple oc's in your hive so he/she can get ready to move on.

Hang_Loose · November 2002

I'm gonna have to go with Guardian here, marine rush doesn't work.

Petru · November 2002

I've been expecting Marine rushes for some time now, I do them myself as a Commander with near perfect success rates even before 1.03. I think I'll do it less in 1.03 though, as the 'lose health if you have no hive' thing is just utter **obscenity** and a stoner to gameplay.

Ekaj · November 2002

Shotty or siege rushes work quite well, but they're kinda lame since it ends the game so damn fast :/ When marine teams move well together they can focus their fire on skulks and take them out almost instantly. If the aliens get organized and 3+ skulks rush the marine posistion at the same time they can sometimes stop a good marine rush. It really depends on the skill of the players but if 2 good teams face eachother and the marines rush they'll have a pretty good chance of winning imo.

Fina · November 2002

I played one game when a Marine team rushed us. They won from it, but next round they were tore apart in the hallways on their rush. It's almost like they didn't expect to run into anyone. So, so funny.

AfterShock · November 2002

I'll never ever stop rushing.. every building i bite will either make a marine go back, find it and weld it. Or 3 rushes later it'll be gone. Either way i'm costing nothing and helping the team. Actually if you come across a turtle team and you happen to have a slow gorge, then i'll stop rushing for the 3 minutes before i get leap. Then back to rushing, but 10x faster. And your 30 turrets suddenly cant hit me.

- After$hock

p.s. If <i>everyone</i> on kharaa rushes then it can go very wrong <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'> I agree that SOME kharaa shouldnt rush but be on the more defensive side.

padijun · November 2002

Here's why Kharaa rushing is so effective:

1. The enemy doesn't know where your hive is at the start, while you always know where they are.
2. The majority of the time, skulks suffer less casualties than marines.
3. Dead skulks = more resources for gorges.
4. Marines move so much slower than Kharaa. Even if they have a coordinated rush on your hive, provibding they know where it is, it will take them a while to get there.

wlibaers · November 2002

As a skulk, you're almost for free (except for respawn time). So rush, you don't have anything to lose. In the early game, rush immediately and delay the marines when building. You might win the game right now, but probably not. When you respawn, rush again (preferably with a group, and using multiple entrances to thei base if possible.
After the second or third rush, they will probably have enough defences in their main base thar rushing will not be effective. There are exceptions to this, where even in the late game you can still chew on the CC without any turret noticing, but that's uncommon. So what do you do then? Keep rushing. But not the main base, take their expansions. At this stage, parasite becomes very useful, as you don't have single target location anymore. It also helps prevent surprises from marines going to a hive. In the late game, the effectiveness of a skulk is low, depending on the vent system. But even an unupgraded skulk can cost a lone heavy marine who doesn't see you coming a lot of armor. But generally, late game is for the fades and lerks. (Onos isn't late game, it's usually game over, most games you only get Onos at the point where fades and lerks could have easily done the job.)
Deviations from the Fade/Lerk combo are useful occasionally, with Gorges (webs at the ceiling, jetpackers love those), babblers (not likely to be very effective late game, but it can confuse the marines who wonder where that stream of skulks suddenly came from) and skulks for surprise attacks on badly protected turret factories.

matso · November 2002

The problem with an early skulk rush on _large_ servers - say, 10v10 - is that respawning 9 skulks takes THREE MINUTES with only one hive.

On smaller maps, three skulks rushing three marines works out pretty well- before the marines get to the hive, all skulks are up.

On large maps, 9 skulks rushing 9 marines, the marines cut them down, rush to the hive (and you always knows where the hive is from the start. Hint: commanders can use their ears) and get there before more than 4 skulks have spawned, owning them and killing the hive.

Size matters. Eh .. well, _team_ size matters ! :-)

wlibaers · November 2002

Only if the initial rush was a total failure, otherwise the marines will also have their team size reduced, and unless they spend a lot of resources for multiple spawn points there won't be a group of 9 marines going to the hive. Also, depending on the map the ath to the hive will allow the few skulks who already respawned a lot of ambush points. (If the hive is in Maintenance, Eclipse, marines probably win, but I wouldn't ever consider rushing Viaduct on Nothing.)

padijun · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (matso42 @ Nov 29 2002, 03:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The problem with an early skulk rush on _large_ servers - say, 10v10 - is that respawning 9 skulks takes THREE MINUTES with only one hive.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Well, that hinges on marines, some of whom are trying to build or get ammo, kill every single skulk within a very short period of time. That's rare enough as it is. In that unlikely situation, the resources just start flooding the gorge(s), who should be smart enough to turtle the hell out of the hive before the marines trudge over there, while skulks are respawning all that time.

Draxo · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Petru @ Nov 29 2002, 03:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I've been expecting Marine rushes for some time now, I do them myself as a Commander with near perfect success rates even before 1.03. I think I'll do it less in 1.03 though, as the 'lose health if you have no hive' thing is just utter **obscenity** and a stoner to gameplay.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I agree

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'>

Rabid_Llama · November 2002

I played one game where the whole alien team rushed one way, and the whole marine team rushed the other. We were chomping on their command center when we heard "hive is under attack". At that point, they had no respawns, and the CC was almost dead, so we didn't think much of it. Sure enough, some of the dead skulks respawned and killed off the pesky marines <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>

Fr0ST · November 2002

It doesn't make sense for me. I mean how in the world can you do a marine rush when spawning skulks will eventually run into you? I say that's a pretty risky strat.

Bishop_Gantry · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fr0ST @ Nov 29 2002, 10:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>It doesn't make sense for me. I mean how in the world can you do a marine rush when spawning skulks will eventually run into you? I say that's a pretty risky strat.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
not to mention the ammunition shortage the marines will have and aswell have to take into the account atleast 50% of the marines would be reloading <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

nicuss · November 2002

well, if you knife the hive and have a couple marines stand back and cover... you might have a reasonable chance.

Khaara's Defeat

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