Ns Was Fun As A N00b, But It Gets Old Fast.
Jeepha
Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9282Members
Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9282Members
Well, we are starting to get some people that are halfway decent at NS, and I have to say...it isnt fun anymore. I was great before the captains figured out to just keep thier men back and use siege cannons, then just mop up the mess later.
It is to a point now to where as captain I never lose, unless my crew abandons me and fails to follow orders. I just have the patters down and it's just a matter of going through the motions to defeat the aliens.
The aliens do have an upper hand at the beginning, but once more and more skilled captains start playing, you will see far fewer alien wins.
My opinion: Siege needs to go. Just way to easy to take the aliens with siege cannons. Or, they need to have a very restrictive limit, or it needs to be just incredibly expensive to build one or upgrade a factory. I realize others have posted this same topic, but now I see where they are comming from.
Sad to say, Im going back to CS...this game has promise, just needs a bit of work before I think it will take off.
It is to a point now to where as captain I never lose, unless my crew abandons me and fails to follow orders. I just have the patters down and it's just a matter of going through the motions to defeat the aliens.
The aliens do have an upper hand at the beginning, but once more and more skilled captains start playing, you will see far fewer alien wins.
My opinion: Siege needs to go. Just way to easy to take the aliens with siege cannons. Or, they need to have a very restrictive limit, or it needs to be just incredibly expensive to build one or upgrade a factory. I realize others have posted this same topic, but now I see where they are comming from.
Sad to say, Im going back to CS...this game has promise, just needs a bit of work before I think it will take off.
Comments
Now, take wild stab who will be "overwpowered" next? Aliens I bet! This just shows how you are all going through cycles, as each team learns how to kill another quickly, the other team will adaprt and soon you will all be whing about aliens being able to kill siege too easily!
Go back to CS then, maybe try some other mods along the way though, Science and Industry, The Specialists or such, there is more than CS! Come back when you see complaints about marines sucking, you can then command and find out what aliens have figured out to do <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I've noticed how important our comments are on this forum. It seems you guys feel you have built the perfect game out of the box. I guess us insignificant gamers are a bunch of kooks anyhow that wouldn't know a good game if it bit us in the ash.
If you ask me, the many newbie mistakes can be attributed to the intuitive feeling that a game such as this one should be about resource control. Once you figure out that resource nodes are quite meaningless as you can't defend them anyway and all you have to do is grasp control of hive locations at lightning speed, it boils down to how many of your teammembers understand this too.
Either way, a round is decided after 10 minutes. There is no endgame.
Now, take wild stab who will be "overwpowered" next? Aliens I bet! This just shows how you are all going through cycles, as each team learns how to kill another quickly, the other team will adaprt and soon you will all be whing about aliens being able to kill siege too easily!
Go back to CS then, maybe try some other mods along the way though, Science and Industry, The Specialists or such, there is more than CS! Come back when you see complaints about marines sucking, you can then command and find out what aliens have figured out to do <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know comprox, not every post on balance is simply the result of a misconception, And just because there's a lot of idiots out there doesn't make this guy wrong. I think the game is balanced just fine for the average level of play. But sometimes, the marine team is just "on" and nothing can stop them. It's all in the early game and a skulk is really no match for an lmg, especially if the marines holding them know what they're doing and cover all the angles.
And I'm not some n00b or anything, I play on gridlock whenever it's public and I haven't met an alien I couldn't top.
And in conclusion, it's 1:30 and I've had too much pie, way, way too much pie.
I've noticed how important our comments are on this forum. It seems you guys feel you have built the perfect game out of the box. I guess us insignificant gamers are a bunch of kooks anyhow that wouldn't know a good game if it bit us in the ash.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a well-done, quite balanced game. The only problem on these forums is when people like you **obscenity** and moan about the first weapon your team ever loses to, thinking it's "unbalanced" and "unfair" when actually the only reason you lost is because their team worked harder, used a better strategy, and had more skill than yours.
Just play another game. Try a different server. WORK WITH YOUR TEAM, FOR A CHANGE. You'll run into a fun game sooner or later.
I'm glad you feel as strongly as you do about the balance of this game. My suggestions are no more *moaning* then your response above. Try stepping away from your computer for a moment and engage a real human in conversation (analog). Then remember that many people out there have a different opinion than you.
If you're having problems with siege, I suggest you play a few more games this patch. Siege cannons have increased in price by 67% due to the typo correction. That should improve the situation quite a bit. Plus, the grenade explosions have been fixed so you might see alot more usage of that to destroy chambers over siege.
I'll continue to enjoy both CS and NS, thank you.
the battle prolonged until HAs kick in and we started to lose fades.
then we rushed together, worked together and managed to get one of the 2 controlled hives. While the new hive is building, marines tried to siege our building hive, and kill our existing hive. It was perhaps the most intense game I ever played. We managed to struggle through and got back 3 hives, and won the game....
I must tell you, NS is new everynight I play it, regardless of that little repetitive factor... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Since you were responding to me and thus implying that my post was "half-cocked and half-assed", I must reply with "you're a dolt". Fair? I think so.
My response remains the same. They come just as well from a commanding perspective, which I find myself in more often than not. With siege more expensive, commanders are less likely to use them. With grenade launchers more effective, commanders are more likely to use them. Simple. Try it.
And don't ever **obscenity** insult me again.
Usually when i join a team of aliens that have low morale cos all their bases are suddenly getting chewed up by seige cannons, i can rush past their bases as alien and still cause a lot of havoc.. usually by munching on the commander. I've played about 5 games where marines have 1 or 2 hives and aliens think they've lost.. suddenly After$hock(TEAM): HAHAHAHA COMM CENTER DEAD lololol
If marines have a hive and aliens have 2, marines will have siege cannons, BUT aliens will have fades- probably with regen/adren (or any 2 other upgrades) also skulks are able to leap which is hidesouly underrated.... i havent met a base where i cant get thru to the commander yet... unless they are turtling in which cause u just get fades/lerks on the job.. umbra + acid rocket = dead turtle.
Maybe with a great commander and a load of great marines you could own me + a noob team but i would still expect me to chomp on your comm center every few minutes <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Remember its all about fun- if its hideously unbalanced but everyone still has fun- then its a good game.
- After$hock
Siege Turrets, I have heard numerous reports as to why they are now unbalanced. All of them agree that it was a shortly-before-release tweak that had done it. One says that they used to be line-of-sight only. Another, that their effective radius was increased by a good amount. The latter *would* render them 'balanced'. Set up a Siege to break down a defensive wall, or to kill a Hive faster than three or four HA/HMGs can do it. Few will disagree that Sieges are unbalanced. Aliens have no countermeasure, and no equivalent. NOTHING else in the game can shoot a target *through a wall*. Much less through a wall, with no visible indicator of the direction or attitude from which the shot arrived.. allowing Marines to wedge them into weird, map-glitchy spots which effectively will destroy any chance Aliens might have at taking them down before the target is destroyed, if not for the remainder of the map.
This is why on ns_bast, apparently one of the first 'finalized' maps, you can siege the Engine Room Hive directly without ever leaving the Marine base, if your Commander knows just where to put the siege so the Hive itself is _barely_ in range. You can Siege *eight* resource nozzles on the map from the Marine base, denying any Alien expansion in those locations, much less Alien capture/usage of those nozzles.
Either the ST needs to be reverted (Marines would see it as next-to-useless if it was LOS only.. when it's available almost from the very beginning of the game), tweaked to make it 'fair', or removed entirely. The last option seems to be the most easily accomplished for the dev team.. after all, it'd take a good bit of work to add in an Alien Chamber which disintegrates the Sieges' shots.
Perhaps adding this to the near-useless Sensory Chamber would put it in the running for other than 'Dead Last' on the build order of any successful Alien team. Plus, building them all over the place would only annoy the Alien team with 'The Enemy Approaches!' spam when a Marine moves past a 'defended' area.
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <<<b>CHOMPEH!!</b>>> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
I said it would help. I didn't say it would solve the problem. (if there even is one... which I can dispute easily)
No, not at all, at least not for me. Games are played in order to win them.
If I know a sure-win strategy exists for one of the sides, there is no more point in playing the game at all. This is how the original post must be read as well: Once you know how to win with marines again and again, the game is repetitive.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think you've been playing against aliens that don't know how to get their second hive up fast enough (or you just like to rush a lot).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I read this correctly, you say that he should refrain from rushing to make the game the less boring. That can't be the solution.
And when I say rushing, I don't even make a difference between attacking the hive or securing the two empty hives.
Let me say that I have not seen a single game (and I've seen many) that the marines lost when they forgot about spawnbase and RPs, and went for the hives right away.
Admittedly, this is less of a problem... however, with the Armor bug gone it takes even LONGER to get rid of a TF, and get those Sieges off your Hive. Oh, and lest we forget. if the Aliens are EVER without a fully-operational Hive, they LOSE. Even if one is almost completely built when the previous one goes down. All aliens go *poppity* near-instantly. Making Siege-Spamming the Hives even MORE of a problem.. if you lose one, even with the other coming up, you die. Marines win.
(edit) Heh. See my other replies to those who think Aliens AREN'T supposed to rush. Who think it's 'unfair', when Aliens can't BUILD in the first three to five minutes of a map.. for the first thirty seconds or so, they can't even morph into the builder <i>class</i>. Early-game is <u>ALL</u> about the Rush, for Xenos. Catch the Marines with their pants down, you win, and it's all the Marines' fault for not defending. Which happens more often than not with those who try to sally out early and grab a Hive before setting up any kind of defenses in their base. (/edit)
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <<<b>CHOMPEH!!</b>>> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
I said it would help. I didn't say it would solve the problem. (if there even is one... which I can dispute easily)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"67%" sounds like a lot but we know it's really only 10rps more than it used to be. That's not going to change anything - and it's not supposed to - it's a typo not a balance measure.
What it needs is a balance measure.
Talesin also points out all of the downsides for v1.03 for the Kharaa. It's sad. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
I haven't seen a problem in the game that can't be overcome by good teamwork yet. Of course, if the other side is doing just as well with teamwork, it can get hairy.
But fear not... this game has not succumbed to natural selection and will continue to evolve into a more complex and ultimately better game.
Before:
Not to mention the Marine strategy of having four HAs with welders assault an Alien Hive and be nearly unkillable, with two at the back welding the two in the front and each other, with the Commander dropping in health for all of them. The only way that I have seen that defeated currently is with TWO Onos (under 1.02, with the armor bug) or with five Adrenaline 3 Lerks using Spore Cloud until they've ALL exhausted their Stamina putting up a hugely layered death zone in ONE area. A normal Marine would be killed in this same zone in under a second. The HA/weld group can last over 20 seconds, quite long enough to walk out of it while all welding one another.
That's five Lerks times three Spore Clouds apiece, fifteen clouds, each doing eight points of damage per second, 120 dmg/second. Welders restore 10ap * 10/sec, 100pts/sec. Even with un-upgraded HA, that equates to approximately ten to eleven seconds before they go down. Longer, if the Comm is dropping medpacks on them, theoretically surviving a near-infinite amount of time so long as their Comm drops one healthpack every four seconds for each of them. Fully-upgraded, their armor lasts a bit over TWICE as long. Again, able to reach a point with a commander dropping medpacks for each every four seconds, that they will NEVER die from that massive cloud alone. Tricky to reach, and you need a QUICK commander, but quite doable. Making it easy at that point to walk out as a group, or even just in twos, heal back to full, wait for the spores to dissipate, and go in again. With just one or two Lerks (as is the norm) they will _never_ run out of armor. They will last 100 seconds, with no Commander to heal them, entirely due to the fact that someone in HA takes one point of Health Damage (factored into the above calculations) for every eight, SO LONG AS IT'S ROUNDED UP. If it's not, (works out to .4 damage per second, per cloud) they can last forever with no Command help.
Two Onos attacking one marine, one Bite per second, 120 damage/bite will kill a baseline HA Marine in a bit under two seconds. Upgraded, that rises to about three seconds. Welded, perhaps four or five. In that same time, the one welding Marine can dish out 400-500 damage. Not QUITE enough to kill an Onos. But now take BOTH the baseline HA Marines, and instead of welding have them attack the Onos. Three seconds to kill one (300dmg *2 = 600), three more to kill the other (600+300dmg = 900) and the Onos is dead well before he can kill the second one, Carapace 3 or not, with the Armor Bug fixed. Leaving the second Marine with approximately 94HP/86AP. Add a third Marine now. They can kill the upgraded Onos without ONE of them dying. Only have to deal 700dmg at MOST, which takes roughly two-and-one-third second. The ONE Marine that took damage is left with 60HP/0AP.
Would run it for the upgraded-to-level-three HA, but I get the feeling that some people are already bored by the math. Leave it at that for the moment, HA/Welder is PAINFULLY overpowered when used in groups of three or four. NOTHING on the Marines' side is supposed to rival an Onos. Yet four HA/Welders can do it easily. If two of them are welding the attacking two, their survival time (and thereby overall damage rate) raises dramatically. Four HA/Welders can take down a one-Onos-at-a-time rush of up to 66 Onos, one after the other, with no breaks in the line, using the two-healing-two-attacking method. With NO armor upgrades. This means that as long as the Marines watch their backs, they can take down an Onos stampede into their base with relative ease. Not sure about Bile Bomb or Acid Rocket though.. haven't run the math on that, but I expect that it will be similar.
(Just looked, it is. Even one Fade constantly Bile Bombing wouldn't take them out in under 25 seconds, including taking splash damage into consideration. However, these numbers hold true for pairs of HA/Welders as well, instead of just groups of four.)
(edit: Kung Fool, was that on a v1.02 or a v1.03 server? Or one of the earlier revisions? All my numbers in this post are only good for the v1.03 math.)
(edit x2: Odd how the Marines have 24 kills in the first one, and 21 in the second. Must have killed themselves a few times and not gotten a kill since then, or gotten a few kills and killed themselves a LOT more than I've ever seen happen in a game.)
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <<<b>CHOMPEH!!</b>>> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
4 guys in HA, each with a welder and a HMG. How many resources is that ? Just add it up. Now add however many health packs the commander keeps spamming as you suggest.
Its called putting all your eggs in one basket. Thats a hell of a lot of resources in a very small area. I'd expect them to be damn hard to handle, and that you'd have to throw an equal amount of resources at them to take them down, an effort which would be well worth it. I'm happy if I can take a single HA with me when I die.
Edit: Talesin, in your post you state - ".....and instead of welding have them attack the Onos. Three seconds to kill one (300dmg *2 = 600)....."
How are u workin that damage out then ? I'm not sure what the ROF of a LMG is. Its still a lot of resources either way. Also, just a tactical question, but in the sitaution you describe, why didn't the onos just paralyze them ?
It's cheaper to do it that way, they do more damage/second that way, they live longer that way, and surprisingly enough the ONLY thing that can take them down is a Skulk with Carapace and Celerity, fighting near a Hive or healing cluster of DCs. At THAT point they need one guy with an HMG, as a rabid skulk moving at Mach 1 performing (essentially) a Knife Duel CAN take them down if he's good. I killed two of them that were coming in, before the third pulled out his LMG and capped me on the long end of a pass, when I was away from them and regenning health from being in proximity to the Hive. They only do that damage while in-contact. But they can heal each other like MAD against anything but a concerted effort by four or five teammates. If they all were welding each other, I wouldn't have been able to kill ONE. If they were all crouched, I would have been popped in a second flat due to the crouching Marine hitbox bug.
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <<<b>CHOMPEH!!</b>>> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
There is, however, one thing about Comprox' post that I can completely agree on - the game 'evolves' in cycles:
First, we had the marines using HAs and HMGs, until the aliens found out about the worth of a good Umbra/Acid Rocket combo, which then was followed by the marines realizing that a) HAs 'suck' (although incredibly powerful, I barely see a marine with them nowadays) and that siegecrawls are the 'only' way to go.
I'll take a wild guess and say that, by next wednesday, the aliens will have started placing sensory chambers at every corner to detect a marine minibase before it's actually built.
The marines will then find something else.
This is, in a way, the only path a complex multiplayer game <i>can</i> go - people getting new ideas, testing them, institutionalizing them, and then dropping them for something new.
If you think we're believing we created a perfect game out of the blue, I can, looking at the PT forum, tell you that we don't at all.
Comprox and me are, however, moderators on these boards, and that also means that we've got to stand behind the game they're dedicated to. What would you think about us if we went around, telling everybody how much this and that sucks?
Personally, I've got to admit that I find something aesthetically wrong about the siegeturret. I'd like to see it as a kind of big mortar, or alternatively as a preciese, but limited high-tech weapon. This won't keep me from defending Flayras descision, because I can see the reason behind it.
Believe me, the siegecrawl <i>can</i> and <i>will</i> be countered. As Comprox said, it's quite possible that you, should you not have turned your back on NS in the meanwhile, will be totally convinced that sensory is overpowered by next week. I know it's getting old, but please accept that we've played this game for six months, whereas you played it for four weeks (although doubtlessly much more often than we did). We simply already saw lots of the currently used strategies, saw their downfall, and sometimes also their later second rise.
If you're willing to invest the time, chances are, you will, too.
In that that time, the forums have gone crazy with the number of members, but the moderators have done a great job handling it.
We've had THREE patches. In one month! Thats amazing! Even after NS has been released they've not sat back on their laurels, they've carried on working, trying to iron out all these issues the community brings up, bearing in mind they are doing something they don't earn a penny from.
I will wait as long as I need to for a new client version to come out, and love every darn minute of NS in the meantime.
True. While I do believe that there are balance issues in the 1 hive vs. LMG phase, I am confident that they will be sorted out. Flayra hasn't even done much balancing yet, he's been busy with CPU optimizations and bug fixes.
In public play it doesn't matter that much anyway, as there are lots of, how shall I put it, sub-optimal players who make the gameplay a lot more unpredictable than it could be.
The reason these boards exist is for ideas, critcism, and comments to be voiced. You're in the wrong place for mindless flaming.
That aside, I do see where this poster is coming from. A marine commander who knows solid tactics can beat ANY skill level alien team if his marines follow simple orders and know how to shoot a gun at average levels. Alien skill doesn't factor in, end game balance doesn't factor in.
The game is unbalanced, seige IS unbalanced. I'm not one to remove something cool like that which is already in the game, so why not make a counter to seige cannons? And I'm talking about something solid, not nebulous like "USE FADES YOU MORON" -- The biggest problem with seiges is their use before the aliens are able to get fades.
Let the gorg build a new type of tower, which takes the damage done to any unit within its radius and distributes it evenly to everything in its radius. A shield tower, if you will.
<span style='color:green'>Read the last words of your second paragraph and then ask yourself whether that choice of words was in order.</span>