No GUI?
the_x5
the Xzianthian Join Date: 2004-03-02 Member: 27041Members, Constellation
the Xzianthian Join Date: 2004-03-02 Member: 27041Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Does it work for an FPS?</div>More specifically, could it work for NS2?
I am not making this one of my official or formal ideas & suggestions because I'm not really sure what my opinion is on this either. But I would like to open a discussion on this, open for opinions and constructive criticism, with regards to an idea for NS2 to consider.
This topic is an offshoot of <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=105081" target="_blank">this thread</a> created by <b>Haze</b>, which talks about a new game called <i>Dead Space</i>. (giving credit where credit is due)
So what are your collective opinions on these two questions?
I am not making this one of my official or formal ideas & suggestions because I'm not really sure what my opinion is on this either. But I would like to open a discussion on this, open for opinions and constructive criticism, with regards to an idea for NS2 to consider.
This topic is an offshoot of <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=105081" target="_blank">this thread</a> created by <b>Haze</b>, which talks about a new game called <i>Dead Space</i>. (giving credit where credit is due)
So what are your collective opinions on these two questions?
Comments
It'd be pretty backwards to go from a GUI to what we had before (text, UI) ... and the GUI is used to launch the game, not play it...
Now, if you're talking HUD, then why would the lack of a HUD <u><i>NOT</i></u> work? the vast majority of the worlds soldiers today get along fine without a HUD, on a ground-war there's really not <i><u>THAT</u></i> much information to take in (unless you're Tom Clancy, and a GRAW addict). Air pilots and Tank drivers use HUDs to display the vast information needed to operate that machinery, and without it they'd be toast.
Video games ADD a HUD as a way of managing the extra information a video game supplies on the soldier's screen, removing (or simply not creating) it would probably work fine, as long as Ammunition is displayed on the gun or something, aka: Halo's AR.
For the Aliens, small biological looking indicators at the edge of their vision could be used to indicate the energy they have.
1--Health remaining
2--Armor remaining
3--Ammunition remaining
4--Current global upgrades
5--Minimap
6--Waypoints
1/2 : No real-life infantry HUD would show health and armor, but then again a real-life infantryman would know whether or not he'd been shot by whether or not he was full of holes. Our game-soldier doesn't have that luxury, so I think you need some visual indicator of how damaged you are, and a HUD is simply the easiest way to accomplish that.
3: The ammo display could conceivably be removed, especially if you put an indicator on the gun itself as mentioned above. You would still need some way of determining how many spare clips you had though.
4: Its not strictly necessary to know what all of your upgrades are at all times, but it certainly doesn't hurt.
5: The map is probably the most critical function of the HUD, and important enough in the game-world to justify the inclusion of the holo-visors all on its own. It makes sense both for us as players and for the characters, and I can't think of any good reason to ditch it. And once the HUD is established to show us the map, it's not much of a stretch to have it show us those other things too.
In general, I think it would be possible to make a HUD-less FPS, but not easy, and I don't think it would work for NS2 at all. I don't think any team game could realistically live without a map feature.
Not sure that the alien equivalent of a PDA is... hivemind link to the alien commmander view?
Imagine the "holo-hud" only shows up, if you change the Weapon, recieve Ammo or shoot/get hurt.
It would appear on the top of the screen in an oval form and on low Ammo or Health it would start flickering and turn red.
So you could always activate it if you change the weapon slots. What the NS-Gamer often does i think.
But it could get annoying, too.
So the "Life and Combat Assistance Program" in your Helmet adjust itself on the new Weapon and Settings.
Sounds intresting.
either way, the mini-maps are usually an added bonus, not a necessity, with a well-conceived way point and motion tracking system, displayed via the holo-hud (lol, cant get rid of it!!!!!!!!!) the mini-map would be pretty useless for marines, if you get lost, you get lost... tough ######, you're a marine, why are you no good at orienteering!?
False. You're a Gamer. You know the way to the fridge and toilet. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
I think a good Minimap is made out of simplyness.
Let's think of the actual Mapper, that has designed the Ships and Colonies of the NS World.
He will likely have like a few hundred maps of this and that "ns-map"
So why take the ones where the drain port is cartographed?
The Marine will problably only need the Map of the Corridors and some Vents.
For my own im not the best friend of Minimaps.
If there is an good Waypointing system, with maybe routes, then it would be enough.
If you got that damn minimap, you don't look into the World and ask yourself "mmh, can i get through that door? Lets try it.."
or "What will likely happen when i now climb up that vent?"
There should be always the part of exploring the World.
Not that chewed out Stuff.
<!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->you don't look into the World and ask yourself "mmh, can i get through that door? Lets try it.."<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I never really thought about that but you are so right! Remember the days (wolfenstien, doom) when you had to go up to any/every little thing that even remotely looked like a door to check it.
The minimap should only show walls that you have already seen during that round. It is not unreasonable to think the holo-visors can convert data it has gathered by sonar or image recognition into a 2D image. Actually you should be able to overlay a 3D wireframe as you gather the data but that would look like crap.
either way, the mini-maps are usually an added bonus, not a necessity, with a well-conceived way point and motion tracking system, displayed via the holo-hud (lol, cant get rid of it!!!!!!!!!) the mini-map would be pretty useless for marines, if you get lost, you get lost... tough ######, you're a marine, why are you no good at orienteering!?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you serious? You don't want a map in a FPS/<b>RTS</b>? Do you even play this game?
What does a marine need a map for? ... he isnt building or scouting around the battlefield, he doesnt need to switch his views form one hive to another... he is at an unfair disadvantage, and is discouraged to use teamwork/communication if he can see all his team mates on a map.
Tell me some fundamental issue the removal of marine (not commander) minimap would bring?
What does a marine need a map for? ... he isnt building or scouting around the battlefield, he doesnt need to switch his views form one hive to another... he is at an unfair disadvantage, and is discouraged to use teamwork/communication if he can see all his team mates on a map.
Tell me some fundamental issue the removal of marine (not commander) minimap would bring?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. You have to rely communication features on every aspect of the game. You can't for example see if sub side nodes are capped/going down.
2. You're basically even more comm dependant than now. Even now pub comms are totally lost on the micromanagement, not to speak if you have to issue specific orders to every marine.
3. You can't be aware of anything going on around the map. Is the guy at cargo still there? Do can you proceed safely to system, because of the guys there are blocking most of the alien routes? Is the lerk at pipe or sub?
4. You can't learn to understand the game as easily as now.
The list goes on a long way more if you want to be more specific.
alot of you people who still play NS (and i see this in almost every post hidden away behind your text) are afraid to play as a team because you are so used to being deserted and betrayed in NS1... and it relates to the topic of should one person be able to turn the tides...
If the commander has told you to goto a res node, to defend or attack or build it... then you should be doing that, not inspecting your minimap and then turning around and saying "umm, I'm not going to take that node, because geoff over at Aux Coms needs some backup" ... I don't know, perhaps its just me then, but why even have a commander, dropping health kits will get boring sooner or later.
Or rename the role... you arnt Commanding, you are Assisting...
alot of you people who still play NS (and i see this in almost every post hidden away behind your text) are afraid to play as a team because you are so used to being deserted and betrayed in NS1... and it relates to the topic of should one person be able to turn the tides...
If the commander has told you to goto a res node, to defend or attack or build it... then you should be doing that, not inspecting your minimap and then turning around and saying "umm, I'm not going to take that node, because geoff over at Aux Coms needs some backup" ... I don't know, perhaps its just me then, but why even have a commander, dropping health kits will get boring sooner or later.
Or rename the role... you arnt Commanding, you are Assisting...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your posts are amazingly self-contradictory. You don't want one player able to greatly influence the outcome of the game, yet want the Commander to be the only player capable of tracking the progress of the team in real-time. You advocate playing "as a team", but want all the teamwork to hinge upon the ability of a single player to coordinate movements.
Having the players take on the role of a glorified robot just doesn't lend to good gameplay. All games have some degree of decision making, varying in complexity and frequency; by removing the ability to make those decisions, you are decreasing the depth of the game. And for those of us who prefer our games to be a little deeper than "fetch", that is not a good thing. It makes absolutely zero sense to remove the map - the players who don't already relay information to the rest of the team wouldn't start suddenly because the map has been removed. What you are proposing is to blind people so that they must rely on other senses.
and having the holographic hud means that it's not possible to play without a hud of some sorts <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
but health, ammo ... that should be indicated in a non-huddy way, in my opinion, like a faint red blur creeping up the screen edge for damage, ammo displayed on gun model...
alot of you people who still play NS (and i see this in almost every post hidden away behind your text) are afraid to play as a team because you are so used to being deserted and betrayed in NS1... and it relates to the topic of should one person be able to turn the tides...
If the commander has told you to goto a res node, to defend or attack or build it... then you should be doing that, not inspecting your minimap and then turning around and saying "umm, I'm not going to take that node, because geoff over at Aux Coms needs some backup" ... I don't know, perhaps its just me then, but why even have a commander, dropping health kits will get boring sooner or later.
Or rename the role... you arnt Commanding, you are Assisting...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What if a team is bored of just going to one place together? Couldn't they just use the voice channel into something a little more informative than "We are at fusion", "Oh, we are at Waste", "How many of you are there?" chatter. They could for example use it for: "The lerks at cargo, let's take this Sat rt out before it can get here. " Or "You, powerbuild the Waste node, we've still got central access tunnels covered nicely."
Suddenly the teamwork recieved a huge depth boost, since you don't need all the voice time to keep locations coordinated.
If a comm tells me to go to a node, I'll see the minimap and consider the route (Any OCs, hive location, potential PGs and ect). Once I get there, I see the minimap and consider whether I can safely just build it up, or should I build a bit, check the closest corner for a sneaking skulk and then build some more. At that point knowing the marine positions and some faint idea of pressure and lifeform counts are crucial. Suddenly I can see how the whole map layout plays into the game, and play alongside the team according to the situation, instead of just doing the blind capping routine. At best, the marines pressuring know to play a little safer, so that the cappers can finish their job before the pressure team dies.
Commander chooses the big scale approach, marines handle the orders according to the situation the best they can. It's all about the teamwork there: The marines follow orders the best they can and see reasonable at certain cases. The Commander gives orders, tries to keep marines informed of all the necessary things and makes sure that the whole team works in synergy.
I doubt that would be added, but it's always something I've wanted to see.
Given that NS2 will probably be very environment oriented, throwing the HUD out the window could help immerse the player and give NS2 a little something else. If this isn't the kind of thing the devs want to pursue, its something I'd definitely like to see as a server, or client-side plugin.
Given that NS2 will probably be very environment oriented, throwing the HUD out the window could help immerse the player and give NS2 a little something else. If this isn't the kind of thing the devs want to pursue, its something I'd definitely like to see as a server, or client-side plugin.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, you don't see a necessity for minimap after the discussion we've had here?
In X3 ( a space sim) you can toggle the hud on and off. The Hud on that game is very useful but sometimes u just want to enjor the star field. I think being able to toggle ur hud on and off in some form in ns would be very valuble. Having no HUD is probably not a good idea as newer players would find it tough (lots of upgrades and stuff that they wud find it hard to understand with out it).
I would like it if the HUD was minimally intrusive too
Now that would be damn cool, and they should do this. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/marine.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::marine::" border="0" alt="marine.gif" />
I'm not strictly sure what the point would be -- probably just for atmospheric effect, and you wouldn't use it often in combat. But that way if a player really wanted to get the feel of playing without extra elements on his screen, he could flip up the visor and get rid of all that stuff. Then you'd probably leave like just the bottom edge of the visor visible at an angle at the far top of the screen, as if you were looking out of a helmet that's almost-but-not-quite out of your field of vision. In fact, if you could see the very edge of some of the holographic indicators still updating as normal on the edge of the visor, that would be awesome.
I'm not strictly sure what the point would be -- probably just for atmospheric effect, and you wouldn't use it often in combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unless there's some sticky gorge spit on your visor or something. I don't know if that could be used as a proper element of gameplay.
Right now the only persistent HUD element for players on the ground is their resources. That could only display when you're near an armory - I think I'll try that now - but the minimap is gone for good I think. If you need a minimap, that means the levels aren't simple, well-lit or well-designed enough. Your health draws when it changes, and then fades away. If you are very hurt, your whole HUD pulses red, ala CoD4. Everything else only fades in when it changes or when you need it.
Right now the only persistent HUD element for players on the ground is their resources. That could only display when you're near an armory - I think I'll try that now - but the minimap is gone for good I think. If you need a minimap, that means the levels aren't simple, well-lit or well-designed enough. Your health draws when it changes, and then fades away. If you are very hurt, your whole HUD pulses red, ala CoD4. Everything else only fades in when it changes or when you need it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm interested to see how you can figure out your teammates' positioning around the map. Even on Co maps you really miss the minimap, since you have no idea of what's going on outside your own location.
I think this would be a great idea. The only one who'd really get to see the map would be the Commander, which means the rest of the Marine team would be forced to rely on his orders to guide them to victory. Bad rambo'ers would be punished due to the lack of outside intel.
It still takes a commander to see the big picture in NS. I've seen so many people try to lead the game from field and miserably fail, since the commander has the best overview. I fear that the removal of minimap forces teams to spend their teamwork effort on the very basic stuff like keeping the grasp of the locations, instead of focusing on the more dynamic and interesting aspects of teamwork. By more dynamic I mean timings between squads, covering the map efficiently when necessary, creating safe areas by map control, scouting efficiently, adapting the pressure system to the situation and so on.
I wonder how the communication system is going to reflect this. On NS, even with minimap, my comming on 6v6 has probably way too much talk already, now if I'll have to keep people informed on 16v16 public even on the basic groupings, that's not going to work with a system like hlvoice.
Further on, how many pub comms can handle the game logic properly nowadays? I haven't seen that many. Now, if the commander gets more responsibility on that, most of the people are going to have very little idea of what's going on in the game and how the game is supposed to be understood.
Due to the smaller maps the lack of minimap isn't most likely going to be that much of a big deal, but I really wonder what they're bringing in to replace the game elements lost in the process.