<!--quoteo(post=1690551:date=Oct 16 2008, 01:22 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Oct 16 2008, 01:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690551"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I thought we already established that teamwork is a lot more than just staying in a group. Achievements can target specific areas of required activities without adding bonuses or other game changing elements.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats fine, but you are rewarding the things that have boil down to the common definition of teamwork that is often applied and is flawed. Like I said, you want to reward people that can get assists, but not put points on the board, the problem is, you need people to score points to get the assists.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A team that doesn't know the rules of the game is useless too. The gameplay is better if everyone meets at least a minimum gameplay knowledge level. Even if they can't do it, at least they're trying to do the right thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Acheivments do not teach people how to play the game, tutorials do. Websites such as Nslearn and NSdojo have taught many players advanced techniques as well as basic game theory. Achievments only give superficial rewards for in your case, repetitive un-skilled behavior.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not everyone knows what a welder or phasegate is. They need to know how to use these things before they can use them well. As a side note, I don't think you can teach FPS skills with achievements or statistics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, you cannot teach behaviors through stats, one would have to interpret those stats first. What could happen is that a player who is consistently getting beat can see who is performing well in the server, and perhaps ask for help. Rather than getting some acheivement that doesn't teach them how to play the game better, players can simply ask other players for help based on my stats suggestion, and potentially receive assistance. Since the actual aiming is more complex than welding or figuring out what a phase gate is, my stats can potentially promote more of a social experience, theoretically speaking of course. This would be much more valuable than having a welder statistic and have people talking about welding, given that it is a low-skill behavior.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ah, sorry. I didn't see the first part of your double post. Those sound more like pure statistics than achievements. I'm not against using statistics in a matchmaking system. And I don't think an achievement system alone would be good for matchmaking. I think it would be good for teaching/representing a level of game knowledge. It could separate newbie servers and "everybody else" servers, but not casual and competitive, nor would I expect it to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I personally do not believe in matchmaking, I believe the player should have freedom of choice with regards to what server to join. With that being said I believe that server education via labeling is more effective for balance purposes. Here is my post on Reserve Slots and Server Labeling. <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=104062&hl=" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...=104062&hl=</a>
Matt ReganJoin Date: 2008-03-23Member: 63946Members, Retired Developer, NS2 Developer
I personally LOVE the ideas of achievements and hope we can get them into Natural Selection 2.
If any of you have played the latest update of World of Warcraft, you'll know of the achievement system they've just implemented. I think something like that would be the best case for NS2. Something that doesn't directly effect the game play, (i.e. TF2) but still gives players incentives for trying something new and different than their usual play styles.
I like the idea of rewarding titles or icons for players that have completed a certain amount of achievements. It's always fun to show off your e-peen!
<!--quoteo(post=1691487:date=Oct 26 2008, 04:10 PM:name=Matt Regan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Matt Regan @ Oct 26 2008, 04:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1691487"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I personally LOVE the ideas of achievements and hope we can get them into Natural Selection 2.
If any of you have played the latest update of World of Warcraft, you'll know of the achievement system they've just implemented. I think something like that would be the best case for NS2. Something that doesn't directly effect the game play, (i.e. TF2) but still gives players incentives for trying something new and different than their usual play styles.
I like the idea of rewarding titles or icons for players that have completed a certain amount of achievements. It's always fun to show off your e-peen!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have no problems with achievements, just make sure you reward players for behaviors that are most likely to increase victory.
<!--quoteo(post=1691497:date=Oct 26 2008, 06:09 PM:name=Firewater)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Firewater @ Oct 26 2008, 06:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1691497"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have no problems with achievements, just make sure you reward players for behaviors that are most likely to increase victory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So is that a vote yes good sir? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
Achievements are <i>for</i> people who enjoy unlocking everything and will go out of their way to accomplish them. Except for the fact that achievements don't appeal to everyone, that's great. It increases the amount of "addictive" potential the game has. Therefore in theory, the more achievements the better.
One can see this trend with TF2 with the amount of achievements they keep adding to it. ...
The achievements should do nothing, except perhaps have a %sign or simple pt number that can be accessed from a separate tab on the scoreboard such as "tab"-"+" or something weird like that. The reason is that achievements show -nothing-. They (the achievements) can all be manipulated if the player spends enough time to do it.
I think most of the 'buzz' that one gets from getting an achievement is the instant that it shows on your screen. Heck, even I can get a bit excited about it saying "Congrats, you've unlocked the Mega-kill achievement", because that's just cool. Do I care a #$%# about <i>specifically</i> getting it? Hell no, but some people live for that kinda thing. (Think WoW and armor sets and the next dungeon their guild can raid...).
How much programming would it take, and by what % would it increase the long-term player base of NS2? Perhaps...there's a freelance programmer that could do it pro-bono during beta? Eh. I really don't think that the size of NS2's team allows them to do frivolous things like this especially when they're working on a new engine.
If they can work it in, then I would suggest simple, stepping-stone achievements.
---The levels would be: First! [for the first of anything], Ace [5], Shock&Awe [15], Buckyball [60], Dynamite [200], Wicked [500], Devil Incarnate [2000].
For: ....................................................... -Surviving the entire round without a death for a game over 30 minutes. -Killing 3 in a row -Killing 5 in a row -Killing 10 in a row -Killing 20 .... -Killing 50 in a row -Killing 200 in a row -Capping 3 RT's in a game -Capping 10 RT's in a game -Capping 30 RT's in a game -Obtaining 5 kill assists in a game (easy) -Obtaining 20 kill assists in a game (medium) -Obtaining 100 kill assists in a game (harder) -Obtaining 400 kill assists in a game (...lot harder) -Commanding a marine victory with 28+ players on the server -Commanding a marine victory with 21-27 players on the server -Commanding a marine victory with 12-20 players on the server -Killing 2 hives in a single game (kill assist counts) -Killing 5 hives in a single game (") -Killing 20 hives in a single game(") -Killing five marine buildings in a single game -Killing fifty marine buildings in a single game -Healing (or welding) damaged objects or people in a game for at least a minute -Healing (or welding) damaged objects or people in a game for at least a 3 minutes -Healing (or welding) damaged objects or people in a game for at least a 15 minutes (good luck...) etc etc etc.
PLEASE NOTE: there is an equal "goodness" to the "killing 200 in a row" as there is to the "killing 3 in a row". The only difference is that it's a lot harder and takes a lot longer to get the 200 in a row. The % complete or the pt total would be much better off getting simple objectives done over and over, however, that eliminates the chance of getting one of the rarer awards. So...that prevents people from "farming" these awards; not only that, but they don't really matter as they're not REALLY on the main scoreboard. It's on the alternate scoreboard...which FEW people will even look at unless they're really bored. ..........................................
I suppose having more ridiculous items such as "5 spore kills within 3 seconds" would be also fun, but it would also be increasingly silly. That being said, silly can be fun...
If the devs are thinking about implementing this, I would heartily suggest a community list of "possible" achievements and then have the community vote on the top 100 achievements that they would most want. All the cool/important ones would be voted in =D.
<!--quoteo(post=1691505:date=Oct 26 2008, 07:40 PM:name=the_x5)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the_x5 @ Oct 26 2008, 07:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1691505"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So is that a vote yes good sir? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> For my list yes <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
First I hope someone reads this so I'll keep sort! Second, I like the idea of separating out the newbs and the good and the elite. <u><div align="center"><!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Yes<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></div></u> Ranks A three or four tier system based on how many your games your TEAM has won. This encourages TEAM work and promotes newbs to try new things and find what works and they're best at.
Rank based servers If there were only three ranks, there would be a good diversity in each rank while not shunning the newbs. the mid rank would be aimed at the players with experience and knowlage, but not necessarily too much skill.
End of round award Positive or funny award that give people something to laugh at and talk about. these arn't long term or serious at all.
Zombies(not really) Every game that has zombies has some social factor Take CS, I've played cs with the 'pros/elite' they are is dead serious! CS zombie mod with the same kind of people is fun, everyone is taking, chatting and laughing at the way they died.
<u><div align="center"><!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->No<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></div></u> <u>Achievements</u> <!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->"If some one is good at something let them do it and do it for the good of the team. Don't force someone to do something they don't want to do, aren't good at, and will have to go to a 'newb' or bot server to get done"<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
People stray from teams lumps people in servers they shouldn't be in. They make newbs try things they shouldn't, <!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->the Snobby factor<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--quoteo(post=1691515:date=Oct 26 2008, 10:57 PM:name=MasterPTG)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MasterPTG @ Oct 26 2008, 10:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1691515"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think most of the 'buzz' that one gets from getting an achievement is the instant that it shows on your screen. Heck, even I can get a bit excited about it saying "Congrats, you've unlocked the Mega-kill achievement", because that's just cool. Do I care a #$%# about <i>specifically</i> getting it? Hell no, but some people live for that kinda thing. (Think WoW and armor sets and the next dungeon their guild can raid...).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->We are pretty much on the same page here. That might be surprising to some here, since I'm clearly for this suggestion being implemented in NS2, but you have to understand: This isn't about me, this is about what is beneficial and fun for the community (and consequently, the sales dollars UWE wants and needs).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the devs are thinking about implementing this, I would heartily suggest a community list of "possible" achievements and then have the community vote on the top 100 achievements that they would most want. All the cool/important ones would be voted in =D.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I asked about this in a message to Jason (J!). I did not recieve a reply, but I agree with you. This would be a good way to help brainstorm and get feedback so you can make better decisions.
<!--quoteo(post=1691576:date=Oct 27 2008, 03:43 PM:name=)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE( @ Oct 27 2008, 03:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1691576"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For my list yes <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->/me rolls eyes
Here, how it's done (this is exactly what I type everytime I do those votes on I&S ideas, btw) <div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain' style='height:200px;white-space:pre;overflow:auto'><b>vote <!--coloro:#00DD00--><span style="color:#00DD00"><!--/coloro-->yes<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> or <b>vote <!--coloro:#DD0000--><span style="color:#DD0000"><!--/coloro-->no<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> or <b>vote <!--coloro:#0000DD--><span style="color:#0000DD"><!--/coloro-->move topic<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b></div>
~edit~
Oh FFS! It even converts the code to formatting even if it's in a code box. I give up.
The colors are "#00DD00", "#DD0000", and "#0000DD" respectively.
I like the Idea of Achievements. But I think it would be better, if the Achievements won't affect the Gameplay.
It could be something like a Shoulderpatch, a Spray on your Armor or a rag on your Armor with a logo on it. So if you get that one Achievement you unlock a new Shoulderpatch for example.
There are about 50 Shoulderpatches, everyone with it's own Style, Logo and Text. You can change that on the Multiplayer Options. Examples: A list of killed Aliens, I love my Mum, a Chicken with a Minigun... whatever.
And you would see that patch ingame on the Marine standing next to you.
Another Achievement could be an extra awesome Helmet or whatever. But i think the Patches would be the simpliest thing. Maybe you could use your own Patch, like a Spraypaint?
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
After reading through the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=105614&view=findpost&p=1699177" target="_blank">Commander Rank</a> thread I thought of some, in IMO, good achievements for the commander that might be better than a straight ranking system. This is different from acheivements that help teach new players the game, but should still overall encourage positive behaviours in players.<ul><li> Healing Touch - Drop X medpacks directly onto marines heads</li><li> Candy Man - Drop X cat packs directly onto marines heads</li><li> Armed and Dangerous - Drop X ammo packs for marines who have requested it</li><li> Heavy Metal - Research and dispense X heavy armor/exoskeletons</li><li> Aerial Commander - Research and dispense X jetpacks</li><li> All Seeing Eye - Scan and de-cloak X kharaa</li><li> The Gatekeeper - Open X doors for marines</li><li> Insatiable Greed - Cap and keep every resnode on a map</li></ul>
I'm not so sure if its good to separate the pro players from the noob players, because the way humans (even noobs <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />) is by looking at other people doing it and copy their behaviour. It's better to let the noobs play with the pros but it should be easy for them to get the point, I mean they might not shoot that nicely like the pro player, but what they should get as soon as possible is: where do I have to go, what do I do there, how can I help my team. So basically you could add some dynamic help system. For example, you gestate into a gorge and it might tell you in very short words (probably no stories involved ) - try to track down marines and parasite them - eat ressource towers - ... Those tooltips work perfectly for the aliens, because you can read through them during your evolution time or your respawn time as a marine, so you can gap those waiting times nicely. Or you can add some tooltips when you follow the waypoints the commander gave you, for example, if you are send to build a RT it tells you that you need RTs for upgrades weapons and stuff like that.
On a side note: It would be awesome, but a bit distracting, if there would be a voice telling you some story about the zone you are going to and why you build an RT there only ofcourse when you are on a lower level and haven't got many achievements of that type, if there are aliens around the voice might stop and a small warning sign might show up <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> but that's probably better for a single player tutorial, it might be annoying to have that in game.
if you switch to certain weapons you'll get information on them let's tell it the RPG way <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> basically the tooltips should give you quests dependant on what you should do and you get the achievements for completing the quests Of course you need a nice amount of medals you can own this way and if you look them up they should tell you what you got them for, for example: "Killed X Ressource Towers" Description: "Eating those ressource towers slows down the enemy economy so you can avoid being overrun by overgeared marines"
For implementing the "Protect the ressource tower Achievement" I think you can do it, if you kill a enemy after a given time a ressource tower was attacked in a given area around the ressource tower and the tower is still alive at the time of the kill, its a Protection Achievement ... so the Medal Pops up, whether you are marine or alien it should look a little different and below the medal pops up a little text explaining in short words what you have done and what is the use of doing this.
Most of the games I know deal with those achievements in a different way, you don't know what you have to do to get one of those achievements, okay its nice to find some hidden achievements, but you should know what you have to do for the basic ones. So you kill something in I guess its called Resistance II , I played it sometimes with my friend, you get a reward for it, but sometimes it feels like those rewards are a little random, or at least it annoys you getting a reward every single time you do a headshot or you kill something with the Medic Gun. It should be more like if you do it the first 3 or 5 times the medal will pop and tell you what you have done and why you should do this again and so on and after that it should pop only if your medal is upgraded or something like that.
And as said above there should be a overview of all the funny things happened during the round so that the players can have a jolly good laugh about it during the first mins of the next round, just like you have it in WORMS... so who did the most dmg with one clip or one attack, who was hiding all the time and therefore is a coward, exclude builders or if this someone was gorge all the time give him a positive reward, stuff like that is always fun. You just remember those events during a match and why you got that stuff or you might be upset and try harder the next time.
Ofcourse all these shiny little things and annoying pop ups can be stopped for those who do not need them, but I guess it's a better way if you are new to the game and are warmly welcomed not by a bunch of noobs who run around without knowing what to do, but some people who are nice and help you and show you what you have to do and this can be perfectly supported by a nice combination of achievements and tooltips so those new players know what to do, they can always advance in aiming better, but what they should get the very first time is that this game is about strategy and controlling and securing areas and not about running around killing as much aliens as possible.
On a side note: You might add negative Achievements too, but I'm not sure about that, because if they are implemented poorly it might pop up when you are doing just fine and might piss you off <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> So if you kill steal or something ... but I guess its hard to implement, because it could be the same reward for support fire ... so just on a side note
PS: As always I apologize for poor English and for poor structure of the post itself, but I know you can filter the important stuff out PSS: I somehow hated achievments when I first saw them on some games, because most of the time it's more like you want the poeple to play longer, just for getting random hidden awards that give you nothing but a medal... but if you implement them good you can encourage people to play the way the game is meant to be played and this is awesome, its exactly what I like, because all those threads about "Nerf the Rambo, give skulks the pindown-one-neckbite-and-the-rambo-is-dead -ability"( called PONATRISDA, funny ) don't get to the point that you can address these problems just by enhancing the UI and adding those nice achievements and maybe some small easy to read ingame tooltips.
Thanks for reading
PSSS: lol <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You have posted a message with more emoticons that this board allows. Please reduce the number of emoticons you've added to the message<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I am totally addicted to those smileys
ive read this entire thread and i still gotta put my vote in for NOT having achievements. or ranks or anything that could make one player be looked at as better than others.
if you want to add little achievements to help noobs start out than thats fine, but keep thier progress private, dont let anyone else see or know if they have compleated them.
further more if you do end up putting achievements in please do not give anyone who compleats them anything for it that can change thier ability in the game (better guns,higher rank,better armor, etc....).
i just want people to play this game for the fun of the game and not for these arbitrary rewards
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Insatiable Greed - Cap and keep every resnode on a map<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ...until Game's End: Scrooge's Clutch
<!--quoteo(post=1712023:date=Jun 12 2009, 12:09 PM:name=warlordcs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (warlordcs @ Jun 12 2009, 12:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712023"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ive read this entire thread and i still gotta put my vote in for NOT having achievements. or ranks or anything that could make one player be looked at as better than others.
if you want to add little achievements to help noobs start out than thats fine, but keep thier progress private, dont let anyone else see or know if they have compleated them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why is it so bad for players to look better than one another?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->further more if you do end up putting achievements in please do not give anyone who compleats them anything for it that can change thier ability in the game (better guns,higher rank,better armor, etc....).
i just want people to play this game for the fun of the game and not for these arbitrary rewards<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nobody said that anyone who unlocks achievements will have access to superior firepower or armor. As far as ranks, I'm not actually sure how that applies here.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
A quick overview of the discussion in this thread: <ul><li> Don't base achievement on traditional "stat-######" features such as:<ul><li> Pure kill count</li><li> Pure damage done</li><li> Pure Kill/Death ratio</li></ul> because these acheivements don't encourage cooperative play.<ul><li> Main point of contention is that the kills, deaths, and damage are equally important to winning the game.</li><li> Proposed resolution is adding kill and damage acheivements that demonstratively benefit the team(ie: Kharaa killed near a mobile siege as opposed to pure kills or damage to RTs instead of just damage)</li></ul></li><li> Achievements can be a learning tool for new and moderate players by encouraging unintuitive behaviours.<ul><li> This could also be used to separate "newbies" from "the rest", but enforcement is controversial.</li><li> There was a misconception originally that this would be used to rank players(because of the thread linked in the OP), but that idea was universally discarded.</li></ul></li><li> Add UnderAchievements to show players what they're doing wrong in a humorous way.</li><li> General agreement that acheivements shouldn't have unlocks that effect gameplay in any way</li><li> Idea that acheivements are only awarded to groups of players(a bit too limiting IMO)</li></ul>
I'm not sure if it is a good idea to seperate the good players from the poor ones, because if you want to improve the best thing you can get is an experienced mentor at your side to teach you some lessons (okay this really depends on the community not to be a bunch of flaming idiots that have no respect towards new players, but I guess the NS community is quite a good one)
So how about making this "matchmaking" an option for sorting teams so every team has strong players and gets some weaker ones too.
On the other hand with adding achievements, how about adding achievements that you can unlock after you achieved a certain rank in the game (or any other way to do so) and these achievements should make experienced players help newer ones. Like guarding the weaker player, when he builds RT, showing them some ambush points and ambush together.
I know most of them are quite hard to implement (or even impossible) but I guess there is a way to emphasize that experienced players help out new players that are lost in this new universe of NS.
At the same time there should be servers for the really really new ones to play against each other and some bot servers for command training and ofcourse combat for the basic movement, lifeforms and aiming stuff (dont start a discussion on combat plz)
Ofcourse you shouldn't force better players to teach newer ones the tricks of the trade, but it would be nice to support this behaviour, because you get a bigger, more polite and better playerbase.
Rank 1 Rooky, absolutly new to the game, maybe meassured in game time (so lets say under 4 hours) // is only allowed (or is redirected, or encouraged) to play on Rank 1 Servers Rank 2 Private, survived the first 4 hours, after that the experience or ranking system should no longer measure the progress in time // can join any server Rank 3 ... Rank 4 ... Rank 5 ... Pro player maybe with Clan // should get encouraged to help newer players
Achievements for helping new players:
-Got your back: "protected squad member from being killed while he builded / welded object / flamed infestation..."
-Death from above: "lead your squad to an ambush point and execute a successfull ambush"
Achievements:
-Obey ! "executed a certain amount of given orders by your commander successfully"
Also I can remember someone who suggested that you get a small briefing on what kind of achievements you just completed, during respawning time only, with some very short words talking about why you got this and why the thing you did is a critical part of the game. For example: "ACHIEVEMENT RT Tower build -- the Ressources pumped by the RT are used by your commander / your team for teching / weapons / lifeforms and need to be protected and build ... " (poor example text I know <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> )
Okay this are just my random ideas, I hope you can get something better structured out of this.
EDIT: Hell I'm stupid we have commanders in this game so encourage the strong players to lead and babysit the weaker players. I was so often confused by new maps as a marine when I started playing NS, but sometimes we had really awesome commanders that just babysitted me through the whole map and I finally got the feeling of doing something usefull for the game progress, so how about special achievements for commanders too, because they are the main source of coordination and it might be easier to implement them instead of my not really measurable suggestions I stated above. Those achievements should maybe just encourage better players to give some hints over chat or voicechat not only the "ingame" behaviour so you can turn some players into tutors for their novice mates.
<!--quoteo(post=1712072:date=Jun 12 2009, 04:29 PM:name=1mannARMEE)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1mannARMEE @ Jun 12 2009, 04:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712072"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure if it is a good idea to seperate the good players from the poor ones, because if you want to improve the best thing you can get is an experienced mentor at your side to teach you some lessons (okay this really depends on the community not to be a bunch of flaming idiots that have no respect towards new players, but I guess the NS community is quite a good one)
So how about making this "matchmaking" an option for sorting teams so every team has strong players and gets some weaker ones too.
On the other hand with adding achievements, how about adding achievements that you can unlock after you achieved a certain rank in the game (or any other way to do so) and these achievements should make experienced players help newer ones. Like guarding the weaker player, when he builds RT, showing them some ambush points and ambush together.
I know most of them are quite hard to implement (or even impossible) but I guess there is a way to emphasize that experienced players help out new players that are lost in this new universe of NS.
At the same time there should be servers for the really really new ones to play against each other and some bot servers for command training and ofcourse combat for the basic movement, lifeforms and aiming stuff (dont start a discussion on combat plz)
Ofcourse you shouldn't force better players to teach newer ones the tricks of the trade, but it would be nice to support this behaviour, because you get a bigger, more polite and better playerbase.
Rank 1 Rooky, absolutly new to the game, maybe meassured in game time (so lets say under 4 hours) // is only allowed (or is redirected, or encouraged) to play on Rank 1 Servers Rank 2 Private, survived the first 4 hours, after that the experience or ranking system should no longer measure the progress in time // can join any server Rank 3 ... Rank 4 ... Rank 5 ... Pro player maybe with Clan // should get encouraged to help newer players<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A global ranking system for player skill will never work. The results from one game server do not neccesairly apply to another game server. Any sort of global skill based player ranking cannot work because of that fact.
This is why I recommended Reserve Slots with Server Labeling sometime ago. Label the server as either casual, competitive, open or locked, and then the player can choose which type of play they want to enjoy. Ranking players will create a false sense of balance and may teach newer players bad habbits because some high ranked players may have their rank unjustifiably.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1712172:date=Jun 13 2009, 01:48 PM:name=warlordcs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (warlordcs @ Jun 13 2009, 01:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712172"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->not if everyone is gonna focus on compleating the achievements rather than playing the game for what it is<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm glad you said this. One of the main focuses of this thread to to make design acheivements such that even if players are "achievement - whoring" that
Achievements can either add a lot to a game, or have tons of people mindlessly doing disruptive and annoying things just to unlock the achievement. I think milestone achievements work out better, for example kill X amount of aliens or marines and you get an award or unlock a helmet. I would not advise any achievement that rewarded play time to be put in, because as TF2 can show you, you will have tons of players idling just to unlock an item or achievement. One of the best games to use Achievements is Dead Rising for the XBOX 360. It's a single player game and many of the achievements would not carry over to multiplayer, especially competitive MP, well at all. Putting well thought out and fun achievements would definitely broaden the appeal of the game. They can be a lot of fun.
Comments
Thats fine, but you are rewarding the things that have boil down to the common definition of teamwork that is often applied and is flawed. Like I said, you want to reward people that can get assists, but not put points on the board, the problem is, you need people to score points to get the assists.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A team that doesn't know the rules of the game is useless too. The gameplay is better if everyone meets at least a minimum gameplay knowledge level. Even if they can't do it, at least they're trying to do the right thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Acheivments do not teach people how to play the game, tutorials do. Websites such as Nslearn and NSdojo have taught many players advanced techniques as well as basic game theory. Achievments only give superficial rewards for in your case, repetitive un-skilled behavior.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not everyone knows what a welder or phasegate is. They need to know how to use these things before they can use them well. As a side note, I don't think you can teach FPS skills with achievements or statistics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, you cannot teach behaviors through stats, one would have to interpret those stats first. What could happen is that a player who is consistently getting beat can see who is performing well in the server, and perhaps ask for help. Rather than getting some acheivement that doesn't teach them how to play the game better, players can simply ask other players for help based on my stats suggestion, and potentially receive assistance. Since the actual aiming is more complex than welding or figuring out what a phase gate is, my stats can potentially promote more of a social experience, theoretically speaking of course. This would be much more valuable than having a welder statistic and have people talking about welding, given that it is a low-skill behavior.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ah, sorry. I didn't see the first part of your double post. Those sound more like pure statistics than achievements. I'm not against using statistics in a matchmaking system. And I don't think an achievement system alone would be good for matchmaking. I think it would be good for teaching/representing a level of game knowledge. It could separate newbie servers and "everybody else" servers, but not casual and competitive, nor would I expect it to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I personally do not believe in matchmaking, I believe the player should have freedom of choice with regards to what server to join. With that being said I believe that server education via labeling is more effective for balance purposes. Here is my post on Reserve Slots and Server Labeling. <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=104062&hl=" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...=104062&hl=</a>
If any of you have played the latest update of World of Warcraft, you'll know of the achievement system they've just implemented. I think something like that would be the best case for NS2. Something that doesn't directly effect the game play, (i.e. TF2) but still gives players incentives for trying something new and different than their usual play styles.
I like the idea of rewarding titles or icons for players that have completed a certain amount of achievements. It's always fun to show off your e-peen!
If any of you have played the latest update of World of Warcraft, you'll know of the achievement system they've just implemented. I think something like that would be the best case for NS2. Something that doesn't directly effect the game play, (i.e. TF2) but still gives players incentives for trying something new and different than their usual play styles.
I like the idea of rewarding titles or icons for players that have completed a certain amount of achievements. It's always fun to show off your e-peen!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have no problems with achievements, just make sure you reward players for behaviors that are most likely to increase victory.
So is that a vote yes good sir? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
One can see this trend with TF2 with the amount of achievements they keep adding to it. ...
The achievements should do nothing, except perhaps have a %sign or simple pt number that can be accessed from a separate tab on the scoreboard such as "tab"-"+" or something weird like that. The reason is that achievements show -nothing-. They (the achievements) can all be manipulated if the player spends enough time to do it.
I think most of the 'buzz' that one gets from getting an achievement is the instant that it shows on your screen. Heck, even I can get a bit excited about it saying "Congrats, you've unlocked the Mega-kill achievement", because that's just cool. Do I care a #$%# about <i>specifically</i> getting it? Hell no, but some people live for that kinda thing. (Think WoW and armor sets and the next dungeon their guild can raid...).
How much programming would it take, and by what % would it increase the long-term player base of NS2? Perhaps...there's a freelance programmer that could do it pro-bono during beta? Eh. I really don't think that the size of NS2's team allows them to do frivolous things like this especially when they're working on a new engine.
If they can work it in, then I would suggest simple, stepping-stone achievements.
---The levels would be: First! [for the first of anything], Ace [5], Shock&Awe [15], Buckyball [60], Dynamite [200], Wicked [500], Devil Incarnate [2000].
For:
.......................................................
-Surviving the entire round without a death for a game over 30 minutes.
-Killing 3 in a row
-Killing 5 in a row
-Killing 10 in a row
-Killing 20 ....
-Killing 50 in a row
-Killing 200 in a row
-Capping 3 RT's in a game
-Capping 10 RT's in a game
-Capping 30 RT's in a game
-Obtaining 5 kill assists in a game (easy)
-Obtaining 20 kill assists in a game (medium)
-Obtaining 100 kill assists in a game (harder)
-Obtaining 400 kill assists in a game (...lot harder)
-Commanding a marine victory with 28+ players on the server
-Commanding a marine victory with 21-27 players on the server
-Commanding a marine victory with 12-20 players on the server
-Killing 2 hives in a single game (kill assist counts)
-Killing 5 hives in a single game (")
-Killing 20 hives in a single game(")
-Killing five marine buildings in a single game
-Killing fifty marine buildings in a single game
-Healing (or welding) damaged objects or people in a game for at least a minute
-Healing (or welding) damaged objects or people in a game for at least a 3 minutes
-Healing (or welding) damaged objects or people in a game for at least a 15 minutes (good luck...)
etc etc etc.
PLEASE NOTE: there is an equal "goodness" to the "killing 200 in a row" as there is to the "killing 3 in a row". The only difference is that it's a lot harder and takes a lot longer to get the 200 in a row. The % complete or the pt total would be much better off getting simple objectives done over and over, however, that eliminates the chance of getting one of the rarer awards. So...that prevents people from "farming" these awards; not only that, but they don't really matter as they're not REALLY on the main scoreboard. It's on the alternate scoreboard...which FEW people will even look at unless they're really bored.
..........................................
I suppose having more ridiculous items such as "5 spore kills within 3 seconds" would be also fun, but it would also be increasingly silly. That being said, silly can be fun...
If the devs are thinking about implementing this, I would heartily suggest a community list of "possible" achievements and then have the community vote on the top 100 achievements that they would most want. All the cool/important ones would be voted in =D.
For my list yes <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Second, I like the idea of separating out the newbs and the good and the elite.
<u><div align="center"><!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Yes<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></div></u>
Ranks
A three or four tier system based on how many your games your TEAM has won.
This encourages TEAM work and promotes newbs to try new things and find what works and they're best at.
Rank based servers
If there were only three ranks, there would be a good diversity in each rank while not shunning the newbs. the mid rank would be aimed at the players with experience and knowlage, but not necessarily too much skill.
End of round award
Positive or funny award that give people something to laugh at and talk about.
these arn't long term or serious at all.
Zombies(not really)
Every game that has zombies has some social factor
Take CS, I've played cs with the 'pros/elite' they are is dead serious!
CS zombie mod with the same kind of people is fun, everyone is taking, chatting and laughing at the way they died.
<u><div align="center"><!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->No<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></div></u>
<u>Achievements</u>
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->"If some one is good at something let them do it and do it for the good of the team.
Don't force someone to do something they don't want to do, aren't good at, and will have to go to a 'newb' or bot server to get done"<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
People stray from teams
lumps people in servers they shouldn't be in.
They make newbs try things they shouldn't,
<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->the Snobby factor<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the devs are thinking about implementing this, I would heartily suggest a community list of "possible" achievements and then have the community vote on the top 100 achievements that they would most want. All the cool/important ones would be voted in =D.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I asked about this in a message to Jason (J!). I did not recieve a reply, but I agree with you. This would be a good way to help brainstorm and get feedback so you can make better decisions.
<!--quoteo(post=1691576:date=Oct 27 2008, 03:43 PM:name=)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE( @ Oct 27 2008, 03:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1691576"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For my list yes <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->/me rolls eyes
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Here, how it's done (this is exactly what I type everytime I do those votes on I&S ideas, btw)
<div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain' style='height:200px;white-space:pre;overflow:auto'><b>vote <!--coloro:#00DD00--><span style="color:#00DD00"><!--/coloro-->yes<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>
or
<b>vote <!--coloro:#DD0000--><span style="color:#DD0000"><!--/coloro-->no<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>
or
<b>vote <!--coloro:#0000DD--><span style="color:#0000DD"><!--/coloro-->move topic<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b></div>
~edit~
Oh FFS! It even converts the code to formatting even if it's in a code box. I give up.
The colors are "#00DD00", "#DD0000", and "#0000DD" respectively.
Keeping good ideas indexed is in fact a good idea. Oh shoot, recursion!
But I think it would be better, if the Achievements won't affect the Gameplay.
It could be something like a Shoulderpatch, a Spray on your Armor or a rag on your Armor with a logo on it.
So if you get that one Achievement you unlock a new Shoulderpatch for example.
There are about 50 Shoulderpatches, everyone with it's own Style, Logo and Text. You can change that on the Multiplayer Options.
Examples: A list of killed Aliens, I love my Mum, a Chicken with a Minigun... whatever.
And you would see that patch ingame on the Marine standing next to you.
Another Achievement could be an extra awesome Helmet or whatever.
But i think the Patches would be the simpliest thing.
Maybe you could use your own Patch, like a Spraypaint?
It's better to let the noobs play with the pros but it should be easy for them to get the point, I mean they might not shoot that nicely like the pro player, but what they should get as soon as possible is: where do I have to go, what do I do there, how can I help my team. So basically you could add some dynamic help system. For example, you gestate into a gorge and it might tell you in very short words (probably no stories involved )
- try to track down marines and parasite them
- eat ressource towers
- ...
Those tooltips work perfectly for the aliens, because you can read through them during your evolution time or your respawn time as a marine, so you can gap those waiting times nicely.
Or you can add some tooltips when you follow the waypoints the commander gave you, for example, if you are send to build a RT it tells you that you need RTs for upgrades weapons and stuff like that.
On a side note: It would be awesome, but a bit distracting, if there would be a voice telling you some story about the zone you are going to and why you build an RT there only ofcourse when you are on a lower level and haven't got many achievements of that type, if there are aliens around the voice might stop and a small warning sign might show up <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> but that's probably better for a single player tutorial, it might be annoying to have that in game.
if you switch to certain weapons you'll get information on them
let's tell it the RPG way <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> basically the tooltips should give you quests dependant on what you should do and you get the achievements for completing the quests
Of course you need a nice amount of medals you can own this way and if you look them up they should tell you what you got them for,
for example: "Killed X Ressource Towers" Description: "Eating those ressource towers slows down the enemy economy so you can avoid being overrun by overgeared marines"
For implementing the "Protect the ressource tower Achievement" I think you can do it, if you kill a enemy after a given time a ressource tower was attacked in a given area around the ressource tower and the tower is still alive at the time of the kill, its a Protection Achievement ... so the Medal Pops up, whether you are marine or alien it should look a little different and below the medal pops up a little text explaining in short words what you have done and what is the use of doing this.
Most of the games I know deal with those achievements in a different way, you don't know what you have to do to get one of those achievements, okay its nice to find some hidden achievements, but you should know what you have to do for the basic ones. So you kill something in I guess its called Resistance II , I played it sometimes with my friend, you get a reward for it, but sometimes it feels like those rewards are a little random, or at least it annoys you getting a reward every single time you do a headshot or you kill something with the Medic Gun. It should be more like if you do it the first 3 or 5 times the medal will pop and tell you what you have done and why you should do this again and so on and after that it should pop only if your medal is upgraded or something like that.
And as said above there should be a overview of all the funny things happened during the round so that the players can have a jolly good laugh about it during the first mins of the next round, just like you have it in WORMS... so who did the most dmg with one clip or one attack, who was hiding all the time and therefore is a coward, exclude builders or if this someone was gorge all the time give him a positive reward, stuff like that is always fun. You just remember those events during a match and why you got that stuff or you might be upset and try harder the next time.
Ofcourse all these shiny little things and annoying pop ups can be stopped for those who do not need them, but I guess it's a better way if you are new to the game and are warmly welcomed not by a bunch of noobs who run around without knowing what to do, but some people who are nice and help you and show you what you have to do and this can be perfectly supported by a nice combination of achievements and tooltips so those new players know what to do, they can always advance in aiming better, but what they should get the very first time is that this game is about strategy and controlling and securing areas and not about running around killing as much aliens as possible.
On a side note: You might add negative Achievements too, but I'm not sure about that, because if they are implemented poorly it might pop up when you are doing just fine and might piss you off <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> So if you kill steal or something ... but I guess its hard to implement, because it could be the same reward for support fire ... so just on a side note
PS: As always I apologize for poor English and for poor structure of the post itself, but I know you can filter the important stuff out
PSS: I somehow hated achievments when I first saw them on some games, because most of the time it's more like you want the poeple to play longer, just for getting random hidden awards that give you nothing but a medal... but if you implement them good you can encourage people to play the way the game is meant to be played and this is awesome, its exactly what I like, because all those threads about "Nerf the Rambo, give skulks the pindown-one-neckbite-and-the-rambo-is-dead -ability"( called PONATRISDA, funny ) don't get to the point that you can address these problems just by enhancing the UI and adding those nice achievements and maybe some small easy to read ingame tooltips.
Thanks for reading
PSSS: lol <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You have posted a message with more emoticons that this board allows. Please reduce the number of emoticons you've added to the message<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I am totally addicted to those smileys
if you want to add little achievements to help noobs start out than thats fine, but keep thier progress private, dont let anyone else see or know if they have compleated them.
further more if you do end up putting achievements in please do not give anyone who compleats them anything for it that can change thier ability in the game (better guns,higher rank,better armor, etc....).
i just want people to play this game for the fun of the game and not for these arbitrary rewards
...until Game's End: Scrooge's Clutch
if you want to add little achievements to help noobs start out than thats fine, but keep thier progress private, dont let anyone else see or know if they have compleated them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why is it so bad for players to look better than one another?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->further more if you do end up putting achievements in please do not give anyone who compleats them anything for it that can change thier ability in the game (better guns,higher rank,better armor, etc....).
i just want people to play this game for the fun of the game and not for these arbitrary rewards<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nobody said that anyone who unlocks achievements will have access to superior firepower or armor. As far as ranks, I'm not actually sure how that applies here.
<ul><li> Don't base achievement on traditional "stat-######" features such as:<ul><li> Pure kill count</li><li> Pure damage done</li><li> Pure Kill/Death ratio</li></ul> because these acheivements don't encourage cooperative play.<ul><li> Main point of contention is that the kills, deaths, and damage are equally important to winning the game.</li><li> Proposed resolution is adding kill and damage acheivements that demonstratively benefit the team(ie: Kharaa killed near a mobile siege as opposed to pure kills or damage to RTs instead of just damage)</li></ul></li><li> Achievements can be a learning tool for new and moderate players by encouraging unintuitive behaviours.<ul><li> This could also be used to separate "newbies" from "the rest", but enforcement is controversial.</li><li> There was a misconception originally that this would be used to rank players(because of the thread linked in the OP), but that idea was universally discarded.</li></ul></li><li> Add UnderAchievements to show players what they're doing wrong in a humorous way.</li><li> General agreement that acheivements shouldn't have unlocks that effect gameplay in any way</li><li> Idea that acheivements are only awarded to groups of players(a bit too limiting IMO)</li></ul>
So how about making this "matchmaking" an option for sorting teams so every team has strong players and gets some weaker ones too.
On the other hand with adding achievements, how about adding achievements that you can unlock after you achieved a certain rank in the game (or any other way to do so) and these achievements should make experienced players help newer ones. Like guarding the weaker player, when he builds RT, showing them some ambush points and ambush together.
I know most of them are quite hard to implement (or even impossible) but I guess there is a way to emphasize that experienced players help out new players that are lost in this new universe of NS.
At the same time there should be servers for the really really new ones to play against each other and some bot servers for command training and ofcourse combat for the basic movement, lifeforms and aiming stuff (dont start a discussion on combat plz)
Ofcourse you shouldn't force better players to teach newer ones the tricks of the trade, but it would be nice to support this behaviour, because you get a bigger, more polite and better playerbase.
Rank 1 Rooky, absolutly new to the game, maybe meassured in game time (so lets say under 4 hours) // is only allowed (or is redirected, or encouraged) to play on Rank 1 Servers
Rank 2 Private, survived the first 4 hours, after that the experience or ranking system should no longer measure the progress in time // can join any server
Rank 3 ...
Rank 4 ...
Rank 5 ... Pro player maybe with Clan // should get encouraged to help newer players
Achievements for helping new players:
-Got your back:
"protected squad member from being killed while he builded / welded object / flamed infestation..."
-Death from above:
"lead your squad to an ambush point and execute a successfull ambush"
Achievements:
-Obey !
"executed a certain amount of given orders by your commander successfully"
Also I can remember someone who suggested that you get a small briefing on what kind of achievements you just completed, during respawning time only, with some very short words talking about why you got this and why the thing you did is a critical part of the game. For example: "ACHIEVEMENT RT Tower build -- the Ressources pumped by the RT are used by your commander / your team for teching / weapons / lifeforms and need to be protected and build ... " (poor example text I know <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> )
Okay this are just my random ideas, I hope you can get something better structured out of this.
EDIT: Hell I'm stupid we have commanders in this game so encourage the strong players to lead and babysit the weaker players. I was so often confused by new maps as a marine when I started playing NS, but sometimes we had really awesome commanders that just babysitted me through the whole map and I finally got the feeling of doing something usefull for the game progress, so how about special achievements for commanders too, because they are the main source of coordination and it might be easier to implement them instead of my not really measurable suggestions I stated above. Those achievements should maybe just encourage better players to give some hints over chat or voicechat not only the "ingame" behaviour so you can turn some players into tutors for their novice mates.
So how about making this "matchmaking" an option for sorting teams so every team has strong players and gets some weaker ones too.
On the other hand with adding achievements, how about adding achievements that you can unlock after you achieved a certain rank in the game (or any other way to do so) and these achievements should make experienced players help newer ones. Like guarding the weaker player, when he builds RT, showing them some ambush points and ambush together.
I know most of them are quite hard to implement (or even impossible) but I guess there is a way to emphasize that experienced players help out new players that are lost in this new universe of NS.
At the same time there should be servers for the really really new ones to play against each other and some bot servers for command training and ofcourse combat for the basic movement, lifeforms and aiming stuff (dont start a discussion on combat plz)
Ofcourse you shouldn't force better players to teach newer ones the tricks of the trade, but it would be nice to support this behaviour, because you get a bigger, more polite and better playerbase.
Rank 1 Rooky, absolutly new to the game, maybe meassured in game time (so lets say under 4 hours) // is only allowed (or is redirected, or encouraged) to play on Rank 1 Servers
Rank 2 Private, survived the first 4 hours, after that the experience or ranking system should no longer measure the progress in time // can join any server
Rank 3 ...
Rank 4 ...
Rank 5 ... Pro player maybe with Clan // should get encouraged to help newer players<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A global ranking system for player skill will never work. The results from one game server do not neccesairly apply to another game server. Any sort of global skill based player ranking cannot work because of that fact.
This is why I recommended Reserve Slots with Server Labeling sometime ago. Label the server as either casual, competitive, open or locked, and then the player can choose which type of play they want to enjoy. Ranking players will create a false sense of balance and may teach newer players bad habbits because some high ranked players may have their rank unjustifiably.
also, warlordcs: everyone deserves bragging rights. don't you wanna show off to your friends?
I'm glad you said this. One of the main focuses of this thread to to make design acheivements such that even if players are "achievement - whoring" that
A.) they're learning something,
AND/OR
B.) they're still helping the team.
Spider gorge FTW
I think milestone achievements work out better, for example kill X amount of aliens or marines and you get an award or unlock a helmet. I would not advise any achievement that rewarded play time to be put in, because as TF2 can show you, you will have tons of players idling just to unlock an item or achievement.
One of the best games to use Achievements is Dead Rising for the XBOX 360. It's a single player game and many of the achievements would not carry over to multiplayer, especially competitive MP, well at all.
Putting well thought out and fun achievements would definitely broaden the appeal of the game. They can be a lot of fun.
Commander had every Restower build and received at least one Cycle of Res from it and still lost the Game: R.I.P.ped