<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Acid is a 3rd hive ability. Aliens have zero useful <3 hive ranged attacks. This is why NS kicks ass. Having a weapon which beats aliens close range no matter what is kind of counter-constructive to the game play. Proto-tech should be only slightly stronger than 2 hive aliens, not completely dominant.
- Hey, lets make aliens purely melee and make marines mostly ranged, and then we will also give marines the ability to consistently beat aliens in melee too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, because that's exactly what I'm suggesting. An Onos should be able to defeat HA Plasmathrowers in CQC, but not by an overt margin of success. Secondly, I've little doubt that the aliens will be receiving additional ranged capabilities. Further, Fades should be able to defeat Plasmathrowers wielded by light marines with ease, especially if the Plasmathrower has any sort of start up time (a <b>small</b>, forget '3 to 5 seconds', start up time would also enable hit and run tactics for even skulks).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Suggest how a weapon can add to the game in the form of enhanced marine vs alien mechanics, not how awesome an onos killing heat seeking nuke is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This does enhance marine vs alien mechanics, in so far as it encourages tactical thinking for both sides. Headlong rushes with or against the Plasmathrower are obviously doomed as the weapon is weak to and synergizes with ambushing strategies, so more intelligent approaches are warranted. Try retorting with reasonable arguments rather than off-base hyperbole.
<!--quoteo(post=1690533:date=Oct 16 2008, 02:58 PM:name=Captain Skill)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Captain Skill @ Oct 16 2008, 02:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690533"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, because that's exactly what I'm suggesting. An Onos should be able to defeat HA Plasmathrowers in CQC, but not by an overt margin of success.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Headlong rushes with or against the Plasmathrower are obviously doomed as the weapon is weak to and synergizes with ambushing strategies, so more intelligent approaches are warranted. Try retorting with reasonable arguments rather than off-base hyperbole.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So let me get this straight. This weapon is powerful enough to bring an onos down to red, but will somehow give other alien lifeforms a chance to do ANYTHING? Also, ambushing against this weapon will net you nothing, because this weapon has an advantage <u>close range</u>, which is where ambushing gets you.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Secondly, I've little doubt that the aliens will be receiving additional ranged capabilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're wrong. This would make the two sides symmetrical. If this is what your argument is based on, your idea fails.
This gun is an equivalent of an anti-alien, quantum teleporting, dark matter, nuclear powered heat seeking missile with pointy spikes coming out of all sides.
Any, you're in the heat of the moment, calm down a bit, you too Cpt.
The Plasma thrower will be hard to swing around, and theres more, explanation and list? -It's heavy as ######, so it'll take time to swing it around to hit a target behind you. -It needs to activate the EM Funnel, The 3-6 seconds of vulnerability would be enough for a fade to focus swipe, which can be a hive 1 ability, and kill a marine if he doesn't have HA. -HA's are heavy to begin with, An HA with a plasmathrower is as good as a snail, the aliens could of killed the CC before he could clear half the distance to the hive. -It gussles fuel, It dumps ammo like a mofo, I wouldn't expect it to kill two onos' so easily, unless they were stupid enough to both go at the same time. -They are food, an onos can charge, devour, and charge again, effectivly wasting 80 res on a food for the aliens. -Stunnable, they can be stomped, forcing them to restart their 3-6 seconds to charge the EM field. -Rich bit**es, you need to have atleast 80-100 res per HA Plasma Trooper. -Short Ranged, he'll have even SHORTER range than the flamethrower, that say's alot, also, lerks should get the spike ability seen on certain servers. -Etc, etc etc etc.
So let me get this right, you think a 50,000 degree stream of Plasma that would instantly turn anything organic into ashes and anything metal into a slag heap isn't overpowered enough to need massive draw backs for using such a weapon? Instead you'd like to give it even more power without any draw backs? Think of balance... I think it is a bad idea, and shouldn't be added.
I am trying to get the point across that you could give it all the negative advantages to use one you wanted; <b>IT IS A 50,000 DEGREE STREAM OF SUPER CHARGED PLASMA</b> most anything you'd hit with it would be incinerated instantly if not turned into gas or plasma itself. To put that into comparison the photosphere (surface) of the Sun is between 7,600 - 10,300 degrees Fahrenheit. So think of something burning more than 5 times hotter, it is unrealistic to allow it in a "balanced" game as a weapon, the end.
Sigh, once again people want things which aren't really necessary but "look cool!!!!11one!!!"
<!--quoteo(post=1690524:date=Oct 16 2008, 08:38 AM:name=Captain Skill)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Captain Skill @ Oct 16 2008, 08:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690524"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not suggesting for a 'totally unneeded weapon'. The Plasmathrower has a viable tactical role currently unfilled; lategame close range support/capability. Acid/spit counters massed Plasmathrowers with ease (so does Xenocide, but it's best not to focus on 3 hive abilities in balance discussions), while offense towers can hold them off unless they have some means of sheltered approach. If the marines opt for Heavy armour in tandem, they're further slowed, and thus are even easier and more avoidable targets, besides this combination being ungodly expensive (meaning the aliens have even more resources to throw at them).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, you say that it would fulfil a close combat need for the marines, they have this in the form of the shotgun, it takes care of skulks, lerks and gorges, in teams of 2 or 3 it takes down fades easily, and coupled with jetpacks to get in quickly and get out to reload is quite effective mid to late game. HMG's are also quite effective mid to close range to a lesser extent. Let's see what the aliens could counter with...
<b>Skulks:</b> Wall Walking - This could be useful to an extent as pointed out before, coming up behind and chewing on Marine rump, but this assumes that there aren't other marines backing them up. If this thing is so expensive, it will definately have backup, possibly even a HA train and med spam, and easily countered.
Leap - See above, the person will be well protected.
Xenocide - Massed xenocide will work probably, but this is a 3 hive tactic, and leaves players waiting to respawn. Mass xenocide runs are acts of desperation.
<b>Gorges:</b> Spit - Useless late game, any commander worth his salt can and will medpack the guy faster than the gorge can do damage. Late game the chances of the gorge surviving vs jetpacks or anything else the marines can throw is minimal.
Web - This is one of the most effective ways of dealing with it I think, but again, its a 3rd hive ability, and if the welder neutralizes the webs, then I can't see a fusion powered cutter torch doing any less.
<b>Lerk: </b> Bite - Fly & bite vs a close combat weapon, plus shotguns and other nasties, no thanks the Lerk isn't built for that sort of role, its a hit and run support class.
Spores - Easily countered by HA or medpack spam
<b>Fade: </b> Blink & Swipe - Could work, especially in an open uncluttered area to maneuver in and assuming that focus is in play. If the marines have a PG and shotguns/HMG's however and can aim, this is in trouble due to support from the other marines.
Acid Rocket - 3rd hive ability. One fade will NOT be able to take down the marine, med spam heals faster. 2 or 3 fades with 3 hives, the aliens are dominating anyway, the marines shouldn't be using this and instead focusing on using shotguns and gl's with jetpacks to take the hive down.
<b>Onos: </b> Gore: If the plasma does a buttload of damage, and the person is escorted by half competent people, the onos might be able to kill him, but the onos WILL die, crippling the alien team of 80+ resources spent. Used with stomp there is a chance though if coordinated with other lifeforms.
Devour: This will be one effective way of doing it, although it depends on the Onos escaping. Which leads to the stomp and chomp run that takes place.
Charge - If fixed this should kill the marine(s), although it is a 3rd hive ability.
As for the Flamethrower taking "skill" and being disadvantaged by "Short range and slight speed penalty", look no further than Pyro's in TF2 and tell me that it takes skill...
At least in TF2 there are more open spaces than NS, which is quite often hallways with occassionally large rooms.
<!--quoteo(post=1690609:date=Oct 17 2008, 05:14 AM:name=ryknow69)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ryknow69 @ Oct 17 2008, 05:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690609"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The plasmathrower has a narrow cone of fire, even in a narrow hallway, it can't cover the entire hallway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but it doesn't need to, you seem to keep assuming that the marine with the plasma is a rambo, alone without either commander support or team support. Maybe on pub servers that may be the case, but in clan games, or random pub players that have some experience, it is going to be covered by other marines with at least shotguns, if not HMG's or Jetpacks/HA.
By the time the aliens get in to use their close range attacks, against what is essentially meant to dominate close range combat, they are going to be hurting. If it can deal with Onos and Fades easily by its self, imaginge the damage inflicted where it is well guarded and the marines move together as a team. If the other marines don't finish the aliens off first, the plasma will.
Once they die they don't have team resources to pool together and send them off with a nice shiny new shotgun, or HA, or anything like that. The aliens are individuals to an extent, once that 50 res for fade is gone, it is hard to get back unless they dominate the map resources. They start as skulks, hardly useful against a well guarded alien butt kicker.
<!--quoteo(post=1690603:date=Oct 17 2008, 05:53 AM:name=Rush_Of_Peons)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rush_Of_Peons @ Oct 17 2008, 05:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690603"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sigh, once again people want things which aren't really necessary but "look cool!!!!11one!!!"
As for the Flamethrower taking "skill" and being disadvantaged by "Short range and slight speed penalty", look no further than Pyro's in TF2 and tell me that it takes skill...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Quotes of truth. Take it from the aussie guy with an 03 registration date. (I've been around at least that long, I'm ancient <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />)
<!--quoteo(post=1690609:date=Oct 17 2008, 10:14 AM:name=ryknow69)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ryknow69 @ Oct 17 2008, 10:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690609"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The plasmathrower has a narrow cone of fire, even in a narrow hallway, it can't cover the entire hallway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So is this a laser or a flamethrower equivalent? The cone doesn't have to be too big in order for a marine to toast everything. Just go from no skill in aiming to very minimal skill in aiming. If it is a laser then nothx, starwars syndrome.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So let me get this straight. This weapon is powerful enough to bring an onos down to red, but will somehow give other alien lifeforms a chance to do ANYTHING? Also, ambushing against this weapon will net you nothing, because this weapon has an advantage close range, which is where ambushing gets you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ambushing gets you the free hits in needed to kill the marine wielding said weapon. Light marines get dropped easily. Versus HA Plasmathrowers, you break out the Onos. This is doubly true if the Plasmathrower has any sort of start-up time. The Onos can't really ambush, and has only a frontal approach available to it, which is why the Plasmathrower is more effective against it, and less effective against tactically thinking aliens.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're wrong. This would make the two sides symmetrical. If this is what your argument is based on, your idea fails.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ridiculous. So loose commonalities between the two sides suddenly render them symmetrical? Don't be silly. This argument falls flat when you consider all of the existing parallels between the aliens and the marines, while the two remain very distinct and different mechanically.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This gun is an equivalent of an anti-alien, quantum teleporting, dark matter, nuclear powered heat seeking missile with pointy spikes coming out of all sides.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure, because a short ranged weapon massed with prereqs that substantially slows its user has any semblance to that whatsoever.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sigh, once again people want things which aren't really necessary but "look cool!!!!11one!!!"
Ok, you say that it would fulfil a close combat need for the marines, they have this in the form of the shotgun, it takes care of skulks, lerks and gorges, in teams of 2 or 3 it takes down fades easily, and coupled with jetpacks to get in quickly and get out to reload is quite effective mid to late game. HMG's are also quite effective mid to close range to a lesser extent. Let's see what the aliens could counter with...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong. The Plasmathrower is lategame heavy CQC support weapon. The shotgun is not. It fills a needed niche.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for the Flamethrower taking "skill" and being disadvantaged by "Short range and slight speed penalty", look no further than Pyro's in TF2 and tell me that it takes skill...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually the Pyro has no speed disadvantages and is one of the faster classes in the game. He can chase. Plasma/Flamethrowers can't. The Plasmathrower clearly would take more skill to use effectively than the HMG which is an accepted part of the game.
Now peon, as for your list of potential counters, the ones you argue couldn't succeed due to 'marine backup' can actually do just that with an equal number of aliens in the fray, who have an equal number of resources available to them. Further, medspam cannot be consistently relied on as a crutch. Lastly, adding a short, 1-2 second delay/charge up time (see the Heavy's minigun) would cement the viability of guerrilla warfare and ambush tactics versus Plasmathrowers. Even with backup, the marines would be momentarily and decisively disadvantaged, (i.e. one of them is effectively out of the fight temporarily) giving the Kharaa time to deliver a crippling strike.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am trying to get the point across that you could give it all the negative advantages to use one you wanted; IT IS A 50,000 DEGREE STREAM OF SUPER CHARGED PLASMA most anything you'd hit with it would be incinerated instantly if not turned into gas or plasma itself. To put that into comparison the photosphere (surface) of the Sun is between 7,600 - 10,300 degrees Fahrenheit. So think of something burning more than 5 times hotter, it is unrealistic to allow it in a "balanced" game as a weapon, the end.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just like it's unrealistic to completely exclude friendly fire and recoil? Just like it's unrealistic to allow light armour marines to survive a single Onos Gore? Nanoarmour or not, their bones would be shattered, and the internal bleeding would be such that their body would be one continuous bruise, and that's assuming the hit doesn't outright eviscerate them. Significant liberties are taken with 'reality' in order to enhance gameplay. Deal.
You still don't get that you cannot have the 4th state of matter Plasma, past a certain temperature threshold. Once you go past there even in an "unrealistic" game you'd still have to consider that it'd melt the ship you are trying to save, or outpost you are trying to reclaim.
Also, ever shot any recoil dampening weapons we have now? You seem to always want to draw in on the fact that "we can do it now, so the TSA should be able to do it better" factor at every point. That is why there is no recoil, they did away with it.
<!--quoteo(post=1690626:date=Oct 17 2008, 01:46 PM:name=Captain Skill)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Captain Skill @ Oct 17 2008, 01:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690626"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ambushing gets you the free hits in needed to kill the marine wielding said weapon. Light marines get dropped easily. Versus HA Plasmathrowers, you break out the Onos. This is doubly true if the Plasmathrower has any sort of start-up time. The Onos can't really ambush, and has only a frontal approach available to it, which is why the Plasmathrower is more effective against it, and less effective against tactically thinking aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you can't fight an alien at skulk bite range then it really isn't a CQC weapon.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ridiculous. So loose commonalities between the two sides suddenly render them symmetrical?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think you understand the repercussions of giving aliens ranged weapons. This will destroy the balance of ranged attacks vs melee tactics all players in NS love. This thread has outlived its usefulness and I'm pretty sure the devs won't consider it at all.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure, because a short ranged weapon massed with prereqs that substantially slows its user has any semblance to that whatsoever.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <u>This is a skulk nullifying weapon. Remember all those firebat vs battlecruiser discussions we had? Well the skulk is a firebat and the plasmagun is the battlecruiser.</u> Heavy/hmg vs skulk and onos/2hive fade vs lmg marine is about as much difference in power as one should ever have in ns.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just like it's unrealistic to completely exclude friendly fire and recoil?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> tournamentmode 1 has friendly fire. NS1 weapons have recoil with the exception of the pistol. What do you think the mysterious fire cone spread on the LMG is?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just like it's unrealistic to allow light armour marines to survive a single Onos Gore? Nanoarmour or not, their bones would be shattered, and the internal bleeding would be such that their body would be one continuous bruise, and that's assuming the hit doesn't outright eviscerate them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Combat grade amphetamines. The marines just don't feel ###### and long term damage isn't worried about because one medpack will patch them right back up. It is assumed that 2 hits to an unprotected marine causes massive organ failure though.
Hmm, I got a tactic on easilly killing a plasma trooper with 0, again, 0 res loss, and this method is allready being used in NS now to get rid of those HA's with UA(Servers with Xmenu).
Onos runs up, doesn't even have to be charge, devours, skulks come in, the Escorting marines shoot onos with Lvl3 HMGs, skulks bite them, instictivly, they change targets to kill the skulk that's kicking their ass at their feet, by that time, the onos is long gone, and you only lost free skulks.
Skulks can easily take advantage of the 3-6 second charge up, and by then, 2-3 focus bites could have happened. The guns heavy, hard to bring to bere, meaning, if snuck up from behind, BOOM, he can rape him. Flanking, or simply going in circles, with his slow run speed, and turn speed, he can't keep up and is forced to suicide kill the skulk, (Shooting the ground). Ammo, The plasmathrower gussles ammo, it won't be able to have mass flame on forever, not even long, 30 seconds of constant plasma? He'd die as soon as he ran out. And when he gets an ammo pack, he has a long a** reload, a plasmathrowe is complex.
Recoil can NEVER be eliminated, unless you want to carry this massive a** gun full of springs, the cone of fire, fu** no, that ain't recoil, bullets do stray. I've seen the newest recoil guarded gun, it still shakes and nocks the aim off abit.
Any, this isn't a laser, it is a narrow funnel of plasma, need a pic?
<!--quoteo(post=1690660:date=Oct 17 2008, 08:48 PM:name=enigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(enigma @ Oct 17 2008, 08:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690660"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->because we all know that we need pyros in NS2<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You still don't get that you cannot have the 4th state of matter Plasma, past a certain temperature threshold. Once you go past there even in an "unrealistic" game you'd still have to consider that it'd melt the ship you are trying to save, or outpost you are trying to reclaim.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, if you're stupid enough to focus it on the bulkheads and/or hull for awhile, sure.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, ever shot any recoil dampening weapons we have now? You seem to always want to draw in on the fact that "we can do it now, so the TSA should be able to do it better" factor at every point. That is why there is no recoil, they did away with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are recoil dampened rifles, but HMGs? Forget it. Hell, that's not even a central point, so much as the absurd damage values that already exist for certain weapons/attacks, as well as the marine's lack of reaction to mortal injuries. Also, no, I'm not drawing on that idea 'at every point', it just stands to reason that something as relatively simplistic as a Plasmathrower is very doable when you've got teleportation and nanotech that allows for spontaneous materialization of complex objects and instantaneous healing.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you can't fight an alien at skulk bite range then it really isn't a CQC weapon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It can. The thing is skulks actually have a chance if they're smart about fighting a marine packing the Plasmathrower.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->tournamentmode 1 has friendly fire. NS1 weapons have recoil with the exception of the pistol. What do you think the mysterious fire cone spread on the LMG is?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's optional, it's not default, and there's even some ridiculous fluff specifically addressing why FF doesn't exist. Further, spread != to recoil; I don't see the weapons kicking about.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think you understand the repercussions of giving aliens ranged weapons. This will destroy the balance of ranged attacks vs melee tactics all players in NS love. This thread has outlived its usefulness and I'm pretty sure the devs won't consider it at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So because you disagree with the idea, and are frustrated by your inability to offer unanswerable objections, the devs won't consider it at all, and the thread has outlived its usefulness? I see. Well, contrary to what you apparently believe, adding ranged attacks to the Kharaa will not ruin the core dynamic of the game in so long as they remain <b>supplemental</b>. That's the idea behind rounding out the capabilities of each race; providing them with some measure of competence in another form of combat as a supplement to that which remains their core. This further increases depth and tactical options. Secondly, if the Plasmathrower is given a short start up time, melee remains extremely viable for lesser races in the form of guerrilla warfare.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is a skulk nullifying weapon. Remember all those firebat vs battlecruiser discussions we had? Well the skulk is a firebat and the plasmagun is the battlecruiser. Heavy/hmg vs skulk and onos/2hive fade vs lmg marine is about as much difference in power as one should ever have in ns.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What firebat vs battlecruiser discussions? Secondly, what is so bad about an expensive (more so than the HMG), top tech tier weapon being exceptional against a bottom tier alien, especially when it suffers from glaring weaknesses the HMG does not?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Combat grade amphetamines. The marines just don't feel ###### and long term damage isn't worried about because one medpack will patch them right back up. It is assumed that 2 hits to an unprotected marine causes massive organ failure though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have heard no fluff about Marines being doped on amphetamines, which brings to light another glaring inconsistency with reality; that they don't flinch at mortal injury. Secondly, drugs or not, an Onos gore in real life will kill you. Just one. You will die. I promise.
<!--quoteo(post=1690707:date=Oct 18 2008, 01:39 PM:name=Captain Skill)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Captain Skill @ Oct 18 2008, 01:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690707"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It can. The thing is skulks actually have a chance if they're smart about fighting a marine packing the Plasmathrower.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How? How can it have the DPS to be more useful than the HMG and still give skulks a chance to do anything?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's optional, it's not default, and there's even some ridiculous fluff specifically addressing why FF doesn't exist.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, have some more fluff: tounamentmode is the real thing, pub play is a simulation.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Further, spread != to recoil; I don't see the weapons kicking about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Show how much you know about firearms. So which one of the two is curved, the bullet or the barrel? The no recoil nonsense is further amplified by the fact that the apparently curved bullets don't have parabolic trajectories. I believe the LMG animation just never got upgraded from the 1.04 one when the lmg was pin-point accurate, which is why you don't get visual recoil. (more or less a "bug" instead of an inconsistency)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So because you disagree with the idea, and are frustrated by your inability to offer unanswerable objections, the devs won't consider it at all, and the thread has outlived its usefulness? I see.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Unanswerable objection =!= the drivel you posted. Drivel must be ignored unless the person arguing against is willing to stoop down to the level of the drivel itself.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, contrary to what you apparently believe, adding ranged attacks to the Kharaa will not ruin the core dynamic of the game in so long as they remain <b>supplemental</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What is your idea of a supplemental ranged attack? Gorge spit? Couldn't really stop any marine unless you have minstrel like skill. Plus give fades gorge spit and now you have a ranged alien team which makes counter strike in space. I'm sorry, this just isn't NS.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's the idea behind rounding out the capabilities of each race; providing them with some measure of competence in another form of combat as a supplement to that which remains their core. This further increases depth and tactical options. Secondly, if the Plasmathrower is given a short start up time, melee remains extremely viable for lesser races in the form of guerrilla warfare.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Slow startup time can easily be counteracted by firing it up X seconds before reaching a doorway.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What firebat vs battlecruiser discussions?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I can't find the original thread, <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=104855&st=20&start=20" target="_blank">but have a recent one where it is mentioned.</a>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Secondly, what is so bad about an expensive (more so than the HMG), top tech tier weapon being exceptional against a bottom tier alien, especially when it suffers from glaring weaknesses the HMG does not?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because this = lower tier alien frustration = player quitting NS. It would be alright in a strategy game
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have heard no fluff about Marines being doped on amphetamines, which brings to light another glaring inconsistency with reality; that they don't flinch at mortal injury.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You don't have to hear about it in order for it to be assumed. Also, the injuries they normally sustain and "survive through" with the aid of medpacks may very well be mortal injuries, they just don't have quite the power to completely put the marine out though.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Secondly, drugs or not, an Onos gore in real life will kill you. Just one. You will die. I promise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Prove it.
<!--quoteo(post=1690711:date=Oct 18 2008, 09:18 AM:name=aNytiMe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aNytiMe @ Oct 18 2008, 09:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690711"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Slow startup time can easily be counteracted by firing it up X seconds before reaching a doorway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And waste 15 seconds of 30 seconds of fuel? You only carry one clip, which is in the gun, and it has a long reload when you pick up the second one, not too long, but good enough, meaning short controled plasma bursts. Even if u stoped before it fired, you go 40% normal running speed(50% for normal flamethrower) and when you fire, you only go 5-10% running speed? 10% of total plasmatrooper running speed, you'd just slow the game down, and make it boring, and make people leave to go to another server. Also, gives aliens better chance to get an assault ready.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Prove it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmmmmmmmm, a 3 foot reinforced carapace spi...horn ramming through the chest cavity or adominal area, breaking and snapping every bone in the location, probably ramming them into vital organs, if the vital organs aren't already crushed and/or punctured, then add the force of the horn to the equation and you have major internal bleeding in other locations, if even they can get the blood from a punctured and/or crushed heart and arterys. Yea, you'd totally survive that, emm hmm, Yea....talked to my sister, who's a nurse, i dont think anyone would survive 2 seconds after the hit.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How? How can it have the DPS to be more useful than the HMG and still give skulks a chance to do anything?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmmmmmm, slow turning speed with a skulk at your feet going in circles, how will the rine keep up, oh wait, he cant, so now the rine has to die to a simple skulk who could circle him faster than he could turn.
Ok, seeing that there are glaring inconsistencies between different pro-plasma thrower posters, lets stop the flame war and do something constructive. Drop what has been said so far, let's agree on some attributes first, then we can talk about balance and wether it will be overpowered, fill the desired niche, or be useless.
From what I have gathered, and feel free to add anything or correct me if I am wrong
- Large constant Damage Per Second <!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->(How long are we talking to kill a vanilla Fade/Onos here boys?)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
- Fills a supposedly needed niche, aka Close Quarters Combat, that the Shotgun and Jetpack combo supposedly doesn't cover.
- Marine's running speed dropped, for now lets say down to 75% of the original value. Drops to 65% when firing?
- Marine's turning speed dropped, let's say also still down to 75% of the original value <!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->(Don't know how this would work with people changing their mouse sensitivity, scripts could be made if they are still allowed on the server, but I can see how you are trying to balance it for the smaller alien classes)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
- Delayed firing time like how you have to wait to 'prime' a hand granade <!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->(Please let me know what amount, ive heard anything from 1 second to 6 seconds, I think 2-3 seconds should cut it )<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
- Limited ammo (1 clip/magazine) and takes a "while" to reload <!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->(A specific time for the reload sequence?)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
- Large resource cost, both to research and create <!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->(What amount are we talking here?)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
- Large constant Damage Per Second <!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->(How long are we talking to kill a vanilla Fade/Onos here boys?)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Answer: Kill nilla fade, almost - kill one onos.
- Fills a supposedly needed niche, aka Close Quarters Combat, that the Shotgun and Jetpack combo supposedly doesn't cover.
- Effective against <b>Large Targets</b> Answer: Yes, the plasma thrower is an UPGRADE, repeat, UPGRADE to the flamethrower to deal with larger targets, as said, chambers, fades, and onos'.
- Marine's running speed dropped, for now lets say down to <b>40</b>% of the original value. Drops to <b>5-10</b>% when firing.
- Marine's turning speed dropped, let's say also still down to <b>60</b>% of the original value <!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->(Don't know how this would work with people changing their mouse sensitivity, scripts could be made if they are still allowed on the server, but I can see how you are trying to balance it for the smaller alien classes)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Answer: Droped to proportion of turning sensitivity. Flamethrower has 80% of original turning speed, 20% more than plasmathrower.
- Delayed firing time like how you have to wait to 'prime' a hand granade <!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->(Please let me know what amount, ive heard anything from 1 second to 6 seconds, I think 2-3 seconds should cut it )<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Answer: 4-6 Seconds shall give lower xenoforms a chance at taking this target down.
- Limited ammo (1 clip/magazine) and takes a "while" to reload <!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->(A specific time for the reload sequence?)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Answer: Lets say the HMG takes 10 seconds, double that. It also only carries one clip in the gun, and is only about 30 seconds of constant fire. After depleted, he may pick up an ammo pack or go to armory.
- Large resource cost, both to research and create <!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->(What amount are we talking here?)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Answer: Flamethrower is around 40-50 res, this is about 65-75 res, plus HA, since you can't fly with JP due to weight, that'd equel more than 100 res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You'll find corrections Bolded and 'Answer:' below some.
<!--quoteo(post=1690707:date=Oct 18 2008, 06:39 AM:name=Captain Skill)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Captain Skill @ Oct 18 2008, 06:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690707"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are recoil dampened rifles, but HMGs?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nah you are thinking of recoil absorbing stocks/butts. I am talking about recoil dampening mechanical systems inside the gun firing mechanism or recoil diverting system. Such as the link below.
<!--quoteo(post=1690707:date=Oct 18 2008, 06:39 AM:name=Captain Skill)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Captain Skill @ Oct 18 2008, 06:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690707"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Forget it. Hell, that's not even a central point, so much as the absurd damage values that already exist for certain weapons/attacks, as well as the marine's lack of reaction to mortal injuries. Also, no, I'm not drawing on that idea 'at every point', it just stands to reason that something as relatively simplistic as a Plasmathrower is very doable when you've got teleportation and nanotech that allows for spontaneous materialization of complex objects and instantaneous healing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mortal injuries aside, because they do happen almost every time Marines get attacked by a higher lifeforms. Thing the Flame Thrower is needed in the game is purely for support. A Plasma Thrower would take that support only weapon to a close quarters life form and structure annihilator... Damage wise it'd be like a Focus Onos Gore attack every second it is on the target, not needed. Keep it at a Flame Thrower. If you are going to make a Plasma Thrower, make it a single burst of Plasma type weapon not a constant stream or maybe make a weaker stream as a secondary.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How? How can it have the DPS to be more useful than the HMG and still give skulks a chance to do anything?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You attack from behind/from unexpected angles. This may allow you to get enough bites in to kill, or at least do damage; either way, for a bottom tier alien messing with someone who has top tier weaponry, that's a pretty good result. Obviously you can't do this successfully versus marines in HA, but that's perfectly expected.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, have some more fluff: tounamentmode is the real thing, pub play is a simulation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So the whole 'friendly fire ' nanomagic system isn't canon? Don't think so. Either way the game is plagued with unreality.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Show how much you know about firearms. So which one of the two is curved, the bullet or the barrel? The no recoil nonsense is further amplified by the fact that the apparently curved bullets don't have parabolic trajectories. I believe the LMG animation just never got upgraded from the 1.04 one when the lmg was pin-point accurate, which is why you don't get visual recoil. (more or less a "bug" instead of an inconsistency)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Recoil is one factor (a large one granted) amongst many, which includes the environment, breathing, body twitching and pulsing (this exists even without recoil present, or amplifies the effects of small recoil), and gravity; shows how much I know indeed. As for the animation, that's simply your take. 'Prove it'. At worst, even assuming I'm wrong, it is a very minor point. Get a new argument.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Unanswerable objection =!= the drivel you posted. Drivel must be ignored unless the person arguing against is willing to stoop down to the level of the drivel itself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're right. In your case it's > than, and I entirely agree, although failing to debate with you might result in people getting the wrong idea unfortunately.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What is your idea of a supplemental ranged attack? Gorge spit? Couldn't really stop any marine unless you have minstrel like skill. Plus give fades gorge spit and now you have a ranged alien team which makes counter strike in space. I'm sorry, this just isn't NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, my idea of a supplemental ranged attack is something that's consistently useful. Further, one (1) solid non-hitscan (knowing the aliens) attack is not going to turn NS into 'Counterstrike in space'. Get real. Their core dynamic will still be melee; it is what they continue to excel and be best at.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because this = lower tier alien frustration = player quitting NS. It would be alright in a strategy game<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What's preventing said player from opting for a more effective lifeform?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You don't have to hear about it in order for it to be assumed. Also, the injuries they normally sustain and "survive through" with the aid of medpacks may very well be mortal injuries, they just don't have quite the power to completely put the marine out though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A central point like this would be definitely mentioned in the fluff if it were true at all; professional TSA Marines, the best of the best, the elite, doped up for a tactical response to the Kharaa? Please. Secondly, you get hit with an Onos gore, and you will have just about every bone in your body shattered in the extremely unlikely event you survive. Even with amphetamines, you will not be physically capable of moving, or even using the medpacks the commander drops.
Ryknow addresses this nicely. Getting gored by a rhino is usually instantaneously lethal. Getting gored by something many times as big, strong, heavy and mean definitely is.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nah you are thinking of recoil absorbing stocks/butts. I am talking about recoil dampening mechanical systems inside the gun firing mechanism or recoil diverting system. Such as the link below.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is what I'm speaking of.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Mortal injuries aside, because they do happen almost every time Marines get attacked by a higher lifeforms. Thing the Flame Thrower is needed in the game is purely for support. A Plasma Thrower would take that support only weapon to a close quarters life form and structure annihilator... Damage wise it'd be like a Focus Onos Gore attack every second it is on the target, not needed. Keep it at a Flame Thrower. If you are going to make a Plasma Thrower, make it a single burst of Plasma type weapon not a constant stream or maybe make a weaker stream as a secondary.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Plasmathrower is still a support weapon (this is not something you use as a primary/standard issue due to its limitations), albeit more orientated for the late game. Secondly, the game is awash in deviations from real life for the purposes of gameplay. Lowering the Plasmathrower's damage output from realistic levels, to ones that are more acceptable for gameplay is not beneath or beyond NS as far as taking creative license with reality is concerned. Marines feel no pain; they're not staggered by grievous boneshattering, life ending injuries, they can take and apply medikits instantly, even while bhopping around, guns blazing, to fully and completely recover from said injuries with equal rapidity. Hell, the whole premise of sending marines, rather than a neutron weapon to clear out the aliens is a gross offense against reality. Forget about it. Diminishing the Plasmathrower's damage is the least of these sorts of deviations.
Hmm, it's been rather a while since I logged on here.
Without meaning to go too far off of the rants everyone is having on certain types of plasma etc, I'd like to raise a couple of ideas (almost certainly on here a few times somewhere but I've not read anything in on this forum for a couple of years really).
1- The flamethrower should be made vaguely gassy, so that in confined areas (such as vents) it has a purpose, but it'd be useless over much range and generally in the open. Also, when being fired, there would be lots of flame and the person shooting (plus any allies) may therefore not be able to see. Plus sides of the weapon would be that it burns web, it's reasonably effective at killing skulks in vents, it's pretty, it's ok at pushing back DI.
2 - The flamethrower should be a napalm type weapon, a nice jet of liquid burning that stays about for a second or two. The fire should put up lots of smoke, preferably being easier for Kharaa to see through than marines. The weapon should also do damage based on the amount of an alien covered in the burningness / standing on or in fire - preferably to give a skulk plenty of time to kill the chap holding it it he hasn't support (but probably so that the skulk would die afterwards) This could let the weapon be not entirely useless against huge targets (onos and structures) as you can coat them in burning, whilst not destroying small things. Plus sides of the weapon would be mainly it's ability against large and static targets and DI - It may be no better than grenades though which would make it a pointless addition. Might be reasonable at area denial for a short while and could also look pretty.
Anything you can squirt around indiscriminately and kill skulks without them getting a chance wouldn't be too fun. HMGs always used to take a reasonable amount of skill to take full advantage of the power, I assume it's still sort of the same now. But if you can have a pretty weapon that means you've got burning skulks attacking you and smoke everywhere, that sounds interesting.
I've yet to catch up on how DI will work, but I'd assume that pushing it backwards could be a main role of a flamethrower - which surely means it doesn't have to be a hugely brilliant weapon? Whatever happens, atmosphere should be key. Having a moment where a marine or two is spraying fire into a corridor to counter alien weird growth, knowing they're vulnerable to counter attack, when suddenly a skulk leaps through the smoke and flame at them could be fun.
I have to say I disagree with most here. =[ But happily, a few people have made the same points as me, like noting how flamethrowers should be more effective on vents.
The flamethrower shouldn't be your typical spray of particles like hair-spray in front of you. :\ Most games do flamethrowers so badly.
They do them so badly because it doesn't have any sort of role. The flamethrower should be a support and terror weapon, not a glowy glorified melee weapon.
A class range killer? Shotgun does that. High DPS? HMG does that. You just have to aim better. What, you want to just land flames on someone and do some damage over time to make things easy? :\ Area effect? Grenades. I mean, really, flamethrower shouldn't spread much..
What I'd like to see is more akin to left 4 dead in some ways. You light zombies on fire, they go crazy. This makes fire something supportive. Of course, you aren't going to have a direct correlation of this into NS2, haivng people lit on fire then run around. But, if you're on fire, shouldn't it be harder to attack as well? Being on fire should slow people down and maybe obscure their vision.
The damage of the flamethrower I think should only be better than the pistol EXCEPT on vents. In an enclosed area the heat of a fire can't rise up and disapate, it'd spread through the vent. So something like doing double or tripple damage and bouncing off the walls so it can reach in deep easily. This gives the flamethrower another specific purpose. And better at damaging buildings, that should be a given.
I want a real flamethrower. A liquid propellant one, shooting a line of fire. Falmethrowers are always done so bad.
So, to recap: -Anti-skulk ambushes, doing more damage and easier to hit when shooting into vents. An invisible modifier, but a very intuitive one. Flamethrowers were used in WW2 for clearing pillboxes and caves. When heat can'tspread up, it spreads out. -Anti-building, buildings stay on fire much longer than players. Maybe a damage modifier to them too.. but then again, that's an invisible modifier(though a very intuitive one!) -Minimal damage in open areas, more for hindering the enemy so it's easier for allies to kill them. -Stream of fire, not a cone spray. -Ammo should be limited, light all you can up briefly with well placed shots.
I think this would make it where you want one person in a squad packing a flamethrower to snare aliens and flush out vents, not a train of them spamming it.
Comments
- Hey, lets make aliens purely melee and make marines mostly ranged, and then we will also give marines the ability to consistently beat aliens in melee too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, because that's exactly what I'm suggesting. An Onos should be able to defeat HA Plasmathrowers in CQC, but not by an overt margin of success. Secondly, I've little doubt that the aliens will be receiving additional ranged capabilities. Further, Fades should be able to defeat Plasmathrowers wielded by light marines with ease, especially if the Plasmathrower has any sort of start up time (a <b>small</b>, forget '3 to 5 seconds', start up time would also enable hit and run tactics for even skulks).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Suggest how a weapon can add to the game in the form of enhanced marine vs alien mechanics, not how awesome an onos killing heat seeking nuke is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This does enhance marine vs alien mechanics, in so far as it encourages tactical thinking for both sides. Headlong rushes with or against the Plasmathrower are obviously doomed as the weapon is weak to and synergizes with ambushing strategies, so more intelligent approaches are warranted. Try retorting with reasonable arguments rather than off-base hyperbole.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Headlong rushes with or against the Plasmathrower are obviously doomed as the weapon is weak to and synergizes with ambushing strategies, so more intelligent approaches are warranted. Try retorting with reasonable arguments rather than off-base hyperbole.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So let me get this straight. This weapon is powerful enough to bring an onos down to red, but will somehow give other alien lifeforms a chance to do ANYTHING? Also, ambushing against this weapon will net you nothing, because this weapon has an advantage <u>close range</u>, which is where ambushing gets you.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Secondly, I've little doubt that the aliens will be receiving additional ranged capabilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're wrong. This would make the two sides symmetrical. If this is what your argument is based on, your idea fails.
This gun is an equivalent of an anti-alien, quantum teleporting, dark matter, nuclear powered heat seeking missile with pointy spikes coming out of all sides.
The Plasma thrower will be hard to swing around, and theres more, explanation and list?
-It's heavy as ######, so it'll take time to swing it around to hit a target behind you.
-It needs to activate the EM Funnel, The 3-6 seconds of vulnerability would be enough for a fade to focus swipe, which can be a hive 1 ability, and kill a marine if he doesn't have HA.
-HA's are heavy to begin with, An HA with a plasmathrower is as good as a snail, the aliens could of killed the CC before he could clear half the distance to the hive.
-It gussles fuel, It dumps ammo like a mofo, I wouldn't expect it to kill two onos' so easily, unless they were stupid enough to both go at the same time.
-They are food, an onos can charge, devour, and charge again, effectivly wasting 80 res on a food for the aliens.
-Stunnable, they can be stomped, forcing them to restart their 3-6 seconds to charge the EM field.
-Rich bit**es, you need to have atleast 80-100 res per HA Plasma Trooper.
-Short Ranged, he'll have even SHORTER range than the flamethrower, that say's alot, also, lerks should get the spike ability seen on certain servers.
-Etc, etc etc etc.
Sigh, once again people want things which aren't really necessary but "look cool!!!!11one!!!"
<!--quoteo(post=1690524:date=Oct 16 2008, 08:38 AM:name=Captain Skill)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Captain Skill @ Oct 16 2008, 08:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690524"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not suggesting for a 'totally unneeded weapon'. The Plasmathrower has a viable tactical role currently unfilled; lategame close range support/capability. Acid/spit counters massed Plasmathrowers with ease (so does Xenocide, but it's best not to focus on 3 hive abilities in balance discussions), while offense towers can hold them off unless they have some means of sheltered approach. If the marines opt for Heavy armour in tandem, they're further slowed, and thus are even easier and more avoidable targets, besides this combination being ungodly expensive (meaning the aliens have even more resources to throw at them).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, you say that it would fulfil a close combat need for the marines, they have this in the form of the shotgun, it takes care of skulks, lerks and gorges, in teams of 2 or 3 it takes down fades easily, and coupled with jetpacks to get in quickly and get out to reload is quite effective mid to late game. HMG's are also quite effective mid to close range to a lesser extent. Let's see what the aliens could counter with...
<b>Skulks:</b>
Wall Walking - This could be useful to an extent as pointed out before, coming up behind and chewing on Marine rump, but this assumes that there aren't other marines backing them up. If this thing is so expensive, it will definately have backup, possibly even a HA train and med spam, and easily countered.
Leap - See above, the person will be well protected.
Xenocide - Massed xenocide will work probably, but this is a 3 hive tactic, and leaves players waiting to respawn. Mass xenocide runs are acts of desperation.
<b>Gorges:</b>
Spit - Useless late game, any commander worth his salt can and will medpack the guy faster than the gorge can do damage. Late game the chances of the gorge surviving vs jetpacks or anything else the marines can throw is minimal.
Web - This is one of the most effective ways of dealing with it I think, but again, its a 3rd hive ability, and if the welder neutralizes the webs, then I can't see a fusion powered cutter torch doing any less.
<b>Lerk: </b>
Bite - Fly & bite vs a close combat weapon, plus shotguns and other nasties, no thanks the Lerk isn't built for that sort of role, its a hit and run support class.
Spores - Easily countered by HA or medpack spam
<b>Fade: </b>
Blink & Swipe - Could work, especially in an open uncluttered area to maneuver in and assuming that focus is in play. If the marines have a PG and shotguns/HMG's however and can aim, this is in trouble due to support from the other marines.
Acid Rocket -
3rd hive ability. One fade will NOT be able to take down the marine, med spam heals faster. 2 or 3 fades with 3 hives, the aliens are dominating anyway, the marines shouldn't be using this and instead focusing on using shotguns and gl's with jetpacks to take the hive down.
<b>Onos: </b>
Gore: If the plasma does a buttload of damage, and the person is escorted by half competent people, the onos might be able to kill him, but the onos WILL die, crippling the alien team of 80+ resources spent. Used with stomp there is a chance though if coordinated with other lifeforms.
Devour: This will be one effective way of doing it, although it depends on the Onos escaping. Which leads to the stomp and chomp run that takes place.
Charge - If fixed this should kill the marine(s), although it is a 3rd hive ability.
As for the Flamethrower taking "skill" and being disadvantaged by "Short range and slight speed penalty", look no further than Pyro's in TF2 and tell me that it takes skill...
At least in TF2 there are more open spaces than NS, which is quite often hallways with occassionally large rooms.
Yes, but it doesn't need to, you seem to keep assuming that the marine with the plasma is a rambo, alone without either commander support or team support. Maybe on pub servers that may be the case, but in clan games, or random pub players that have some experience, it is going to be covered by other marines with at least shotguns, if not HMG's or Jetpacks/HA.
By the time the aliens get in to use their close range attacks, against what is essentially meant to dominate close range combat, they are going to be hurting. If it can deal with Onos and Fades easily by its self, imaginge the damage inflicted where it is well guarded and the marines move together as a team. If the other marines don't finish the aliens off first, the plasma will.
Once they die they don't have team resources to pool together and send them off with a nice shiny new shotgun, or HA, or anything like that. The aliens are individuals to an extent, once that 50 res for fade is gone, it is hard to get back unless they dominate the map resources. They start as skulks, hardly useful against a well guarded alien butt kicker.
As for the Flamethrower taking "skill" and being disadvantaged by "Short range and slight speed penalty", look no further than Pyro's in TF2 and tell me that it takes skill...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quotes of truth. Take it from the aussie guy with an 03 registration date. (I've been around at least that long, I'm ancient <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />)
<!--quoteo(post=1690609:date=Oct 17 2008, 10:14 AM:name=ryknow69)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ryknow69 @ Oct 17 2008, 10:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690609"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The plasmathrower has a narrow cone of fire, even in a narrow hallway, it can't cover the entire hallway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So is this a laser or a flamethrower equivalent? The cone doesn't have to be too big in order for a marine to toast everything. Just go from no skill in aiming to very minimal skill in aiming. If it is a laser then nothx, starwars syndrome.
Ambushing gets you the free hits in needed to kill the marine wielding said weapon. Light marines get dropped easily. Versus HA Plasmathrowers, you break out the Onos. This is doubly true if the Plasmathrower has any sort of start-up time. The Onos can't really ambush, and has only a frontal approach available to it, which is why the Plasmathrower is more effective against it, and less effective against tactically thinking aliens.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're wrong. This would make the two sides symmetrical. If this is what your argument is based on, your idea fails.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ridiculous. So loose commonalities between the two sides suddenly render them symmetrical? Don't be silly. This argument falls flat when you consider all of the existing parallels between the aliens and the marines, while the two remain very distinct and different mechanically.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This gun is an equivalent of an anti-alien, quantum teleporting, dark matter, nuclear powered heat seeking missile with pointy spikes coming out of all sides.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure, because a short ranged weapon massed with prereqs that substantially slows its user has any semblance to that whatsoever.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sigh, once again people want things which aren't really necessary but "look cool!!!!11one!!!"
Ok, you say that it would fulfil a close combat need for the marines, they have this in the form of the shotgun, it takes care of skulks, lerks and gorges, in teams of 2 or 3 it takes down fades easily, and coupled with jetpacks to get in quickly and get out to reload is quite effective mid to late game. HMG's are also quite effective mid to close range to a lesser extent. Let's see what the aliens could counter with...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong. The Plasmathrower is lategame heavy CQC support weapon. The shotgun is not. It fills a needed niche.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for the Flamethrower taking "skill" and being disadvantaged by "Short range and slight speed penalty", look no further than Pyro's in TF2 and tell me that it takes skill...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually the Pyro has no speed disadvantages and is one of the faster classes in the game. He can chase. Plasma/Flamethrowers can't. The Plasmathrower clearly would take more skill to use effectively than the HMG which is an accepted part of the game.
Now peon, as for your list of potential counters, the ones you argue couldn't succeed due to 'marine backup' can actually do just that with an equal number of aliens in the fray, who have an equal number of resources available to them. Further, medspam cannot be consistently relied on as a crutch. Lastly, adding a short, 1-2 second delay/charge up time (see the Heavy's minigun) would cement the viability of guerrilla warfare and ambush tactics versus Plasmathrowers. Even with backup, the marines would be momentarily and decisively disadvantaged, (i.e. one of them is effectively out of the fight temporarily) giving the Kharaa time to deliver a crippling strike.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am trying to get the point across that you could give it all the negative advantages to use one you wanted; IT IS A 50,000 DEGREE STREAM OF SUPER CHARGED PLASMA most anything you'd hit with it would be incinerated instantly if not turned into gas or plasma itself. To put that into comparison the photosphere (surface) of the Sun is between 7,600 - 10,300 degrees Fahrenheit. So think of something burning more than 5 times hotter, it is unrealistic to allow it in a "balanced" game as a weapon, the end.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just like it's unrealistic to completely exclude friendly fire and recoil? Just like it's unrealistic to allow light armour marines to survive a single Onos Gore? Nanoarmour or not, their bones would be shattered, and the internal bleeding would be such that their body would be one continuous bruise, and that's assuming the hit doesn't outright eviscerate them. Significant liberties are taken with 'reality' in order to enhance gameplay. Deal.
Also, ever shot any recoil dampening weapons we have now? You seem to always want to draw in on the fact that "we can do it now, so the TSA should be able to do it better" factor at every point. That is why there is no recoil, they did away with it.
If you can't fight an alien at skulk bite range then it really isn't a CQC weapon.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ridiculous. So loose commonalities between the two sides suddenly render them symmetrical?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think you understand the repercussions of giving aliens ranged weapons. This will destroy the balance of ranged attacks vs melee tactics all players in NS love. This thread has outlived its usefulness and I'm pretty sure the devs won't consider it at all.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure, because a short ranged weapon massed with prereqs that substantially slows its user has any semblance to that whatsoever.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<u>This is a skulk nullifying weapon. Remember all those firebat vs battlecruiser discussions we had? Well the skulk is a firebat and the plasmagun is the battlecruiser.</u> Heavy/hmg vs skulk and onos/2hive fade vs lmg marine is about as much difference in power as one should ever have in ns.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just like it's unrealistic to completely exclude friendly fire and recoil?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
tournamentmode 1 has friendly fire. NS1 weapons have recoil with the exception of the pistol. What do you think the mysterious fire cone spread on the LMG is?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just like it's unrealistic to allow light armour marines to survive a single Onos Gore? Nanoarmour or not, their bones would be shattered, and the internal bleeding would be such that their body would be one continuous bruise, and that's assuming the hit doesn't outright eviscerate them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Combat grade amphetamines. The marines just don't feel ###### and long term damage isn't worried about because one medpack will patch them right back up. It is assumed that 2 hits to an unprotected marine causes massive organ failure though.
Onos runs up, doesn't even have to be charge, devours, skulks come in, the Escorting marines shoot onos with Lvl3 HMGs, skulks bite them, instictivly, they change targets to kill the skulk that's kicking their ass at their feet, by that time, the onos is long gone, and you only lost free skulks.
Skulks can easily take advantage of the 3-6 second charge up, and by then, 2-3 focus bites could have happened. The guns heavy, hard to bring to bere, meaning, if snuck up from behind, BOOM, he can rape him. Flanking, or simply going in circles, with his slow run speed, and turn speed, he can't keep up and is forced to suicide kill the skulk, (Shooting the ground). Ammo, The plasmathrower gussles ammo, it won't be able to have mass flame on forever, not even long, 30 seconds of constant plasma? He'd die as soon as he ran out. And when he gets an ammo pack, he has a long a** reload, a plasmathrowe is complex.
Recoil can NEVER be eliminated, unless you want to carry this massive a** gun full of springs, the cone of fire, fu** no, that ain't recoil, bullets do stray. I've seen the newest recoil guarded gun, it still shakes and nocks the aim off abit.
Any, this isn't a laser, it is a narrow funnel of plasma, need a pic?
you're all idiots
well, pyros WILL be in NS2, maybe not so TF2 pyroish, but flamethrowes are going in.
But please, when all you, everyone, any, cpt, enig, kono, don't call each other sh** names, for example, idiots and peons
Either way, we'll get a flamethrower, and it's only smart to think of upgrades for it.
Yes, if you're stupid enough to focus it on the bulkheads and/or hull for awhile, sure.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, ever shot any recoil dampening weapons we have now? You seem to always want to draw in on the fact that "we can do it now, so the TSA should be able to do it better" factor at every point. That is why there is no recoil, they did away with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are recoil dampened rifles, but HMGs? Forget it. Hell, that's not even a central point, so much as the absurd damage values that already exist for certain weapons/attacks, as well as the marine's lack of reaction to mortal injuries. Also, no, I'm not drawing on that idea 'at every point', it just stands to reason that something as relatively simplistic as a Plasmathrower is very doable when you've got teleportation and nanotech that allows for spontaneous materialization of complex objects and instantaneous healing.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you can't fight an alien at skulk bite range then it really isn't a CQC weapon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It can. The thing is skulks actually have a chance if they're smart about fighting a marine packing the Plasmathrower.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->tournamentmode 1 has friendly fire. NS1 weapons have recoil with the exception of the pistol. What do you think the mysterious fire cone spread on the LMG is?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's optional, it's not default, and there's even some ridiculous fluff specifically addressing why FF doesn't exist. Further, spread != to recoil; I don't see the weapons kicking about.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think you understand the repercussions of giving aliens ranged weapons. This will destroy the balance of ranged attacks vs melee tactics all players in NS love. This thread has outlived its usefulness and I'm pretty sure the devs won't consider it at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So because you disagree with the idea, and are frustrated by your inability to offer unanswerable objections, the devs won't consider it at all, and the thread has outlived its usefulness? I see. Well, contrary to what you apparently believe, adding ranged attacks to the Kharaa will not ruin the core dynamic of the game in so long as they remain <b>supplemental</b>. That's the idea behind rounding out the capabilities of each race; providing them with some measure of competence in another form of combat as a supplement to that which remains their core. This further increases depth and tactical options. Secondly, if the Plasmathrower is given a short start up time, melee remains extremely viable for lesser races in the form of guerrilla warfare.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is a skulk nullifying weapon. Remember all those firebat vs battlecruiser discussions we had? Well the skulk is a firebat and the plasmagun is the battlecruiser. Heavy/hmg vs skulk and onos/2hive fade vs lmg marine is about as much difference in power as one should ever have in ns.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What firebat vs battlecruiser discussions? Secondly, what is so bad about an expensive (more so than the HMG), top tech tier weapon being exceptional against a bottom tier alien, especially when it suffers from glaring weaknesses the HMG does not?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Combat grade amphetamines. The marines just don't feel ###### and long term damage isn't worried about because one medpack will patch them right back up. It is assumed that 2 hits to an unprotected marine causes massive organ failure though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have heard no fluff about Marines being doped on amphetamines, which brings to light another glaring inconsistency with reality; that they don't flinch at mortal injury. Secondly, drugs or not, an Onos gore in real life will kill you. Just one. You will die. I promise.
How? How can it have the DPS to be more useful than the HMG and still give skulks a chance to do anything?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's optional, it's not default, and there's even some ridiculous fluff specifically addressing why FF doesn't exist.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, have some more fluff: tounamentmode is the real thing, pub play is a simulation.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Further, spread != to recoil; I don't see the weapons kicking about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Show how much you know about firearms. So which one of the two is curved, the bullet or the barrel? The no recoil nonsense is further amplified by the fact that the apparently curved bullets don't have parabolic trajectories. I believe the LMG animation just never got upgraded from the 1.04 one when the lmg was pin-point accurate, which is why you don't get visual recoil. (more or less a "bug" instead of an inconsistency)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So because you disagree with the idea, and are frustrated by your inability to offer unanswerable objections, the devs won't consider it at all, and the thread has outlived its usefulness? I see.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unanswerable objection =!= the drivel you posted. Drivel must be ignored unless the person arguing against is willing to stoop down to the level of the drivel itself.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, contrary to what you apparently believe, adding ranged attacks to the Kharaa will not ruin the core dynamic of the game in so long as they remain <b>supplemental</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is your idea of a supplemental ranged attack? Gorge spit? Couldn't really stop any marine unless you have minstrel like skill. Plus give fades gorge spit and now you have a ranged alien team which makes counter strike in space. I'm sorry, this just isn't NS.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's the idea behind rounding out the capabilities of each race; providing them with some measure of competence in another form of combat as a supplement to that which remains their core. This further increases depth and tactical options. Secondly, if the Plasmathrower is given a short start up time, melee remains extremely viable for lesser races in the form of guerrilla warfare.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Slow startup time can easily be counteracted by firing it up X seconds before reaching a doorway.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What firebat vs battlecruiser discussions?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't find the original thread, <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=104855&st=20&start=20" target="_blank">but have a recent one where it is mentioned.</a>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Secondly, what is so bad about an expensive (more so than the HMG), top tech tier weapon being exceptional against a bottom tier alien, especially when it suffers from glaring weaknesses the HMG does not?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because this = lower tier alien frustration = player quitting NS. It would be alright in a strategy game
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have heard no fluff about Marines being doped on amphetamines, which brings to light another glaring inconsistency with reality; that they don't flinch at mortal injury.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't have to hear about it in order for it to be assumed. Also, the injuries they normally sustain and "survive through" with the aid of medpacks may very well be mortal injuries, they just don't have quite the power to completely put the marine out though.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Secondly, drugs or not, an Onos gore in real life will kill you. Just one. You will die. I promise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Prove it.
And waste 15 seconds of 30 seconds of fuel? You only carry one clip, which is in the gun, and it has a long reload when you pick up the second one, not too long, but good enough, meaning short controled plasma bursts. Even if u stoped before it fired, you go 40% normal running speed(50% for normal flamethrower) and when you fire, you only go 5-10% running speed? 10% of total plasmatrooper running speed, you'd just slow the game down, and make it boring, and make people leave to go to another server. Also, gives aliens better chance to get an assault ready.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Prove it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmmmmmmmm, a 3 foot reinforced carapace spi...horn ramming through the chest cavity or adominal area, breaking and snapping every bone in the location, probably ramming them into vital organs, if the vital organs aren't already crushed and/or punctured, then add the force of the horn to the equation and you have major internal bleeding in other locations, if even they can get the blood from a punctured and/or crushed heart and arterys. Yea, you'd totally survive that, emm hmm, Yea....talked to my sister, who's a nurse, i dont think anyone would survive 2 seconds after the hit.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How? How can it have the DPS to be more useful than the HMG and still give skulks a chance to do anything?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmmmmmm, slow turning speed with a skulk at your feet going in circles, how will the rine keep up, oh wait, he cant, so now the rine has to die to a simple skulk who could circle him faster than he could turn.
From what I have gathered, and feel free to add anything or correct me if I am wrong
<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->Advantages<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
- Large constant Damage Per Second
<!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->(How long are we talking to kill a vanilla Fade/Onos here boys?)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
- Fills a supposedly needed niche, aka Close Quarters Combat, that the Shotgun and Jetpack combo supposedly doesn't cover.
- Effective against structures
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Disadvantages<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
- Marine's running speed dropped, for now lets say down to 75% of the original value. Drops to 65% when firing?
- Marine's turning speed dropped, let's say also still down to 75% of the original value
<!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->(Don't know how this would work with people changing their mouse sensitivity, scripts could be made if they are still allowed on the server, but I can see how you are trying to balance it for the smaller alien classes)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
- Delayed firing time like how you have to wait to 'prime' a hand granade
<!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->(Please let me know what amount, ive heard anything from 1 second to 6 seconds, I think 2-3 seconds should cut it )<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
- Limited ammo (1 clip/magazine) and takes a "while" to reload
<!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->(A specific time for the reload sequence?)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
- Large resource cost, both to research and create
<!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->(What amount are we talking here?)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
- Large constant Damage Per Second
<!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->(How long are we talking to kill a vanilla Fade/Onos here boys?)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Answer: Kill nilla fade, almost - kill one onos.
- Fills a supposedly needed niche, aka Close Quarters Combat, that the Shotgun and Jetpack combo supposedly doesn't cover.
- Effective against <b>Large Targets</b>
Answer: Yes, the plasma thrower is an UPGRADE, repeat, UPGRADE to the flamethrower to deal with larger targets, as said, chambers, fades, and onos'.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Disadvantages<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
- Marine's running speed dropped, for now lets say down to <b>40</b>% of the original value. Drops to <b>5-10</b>% when firing.
- Marine's turning speed dropped, let's say also still down to <b>60</b>% of the original value
<!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->(Don't know how this would work with people changing their mouse sensitivity, scripts could be made if they are still allowed on the server, but I can see how you are trying to balance it for the smaller alien classes)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Answer: Droped to proportion of turning sensitivity. Flamethrower has 80% of original turning speed, 20% more than plasmathrower.
- Delayed firing time like how you have to wait to 'prime' a hand granade
<!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->(Please let me know what amount, ive heard anything from 1 second to 6 seconds, I think 2-3 seconds should cut it )<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Answer: 4-6 Seconds shall give lower xenoforms a chance at taking this target down.
- Limited ammo (1 clip/magazine) and takes a "while" to reload
<!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->(A specific time for the reload sequence?)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Answer: Lets say the HMG takes 10 seconds, double that. It also only carries one clip in the gun, and is only about 30 seconds of constant fire. After depleted, he may pick up an ammo pack or go to armory.
- Large resource cost, both to research and create
<!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->(What amount are we talking here?)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Answer: Flamethrower is around 40-50 res, this is about 65-75 res, plus HA, since you can't fly with JP due to weight, that'd equel more than 100 res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You'll find corrections Bolded and 'Answer:' below some.
Nah you are thinking of recoil absorbing stocks/butts. I am talking about recoil dampening mechanical systems inside the gun firing mechanism or recoil diverting system. Such as the link below.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEex2UChBtw" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEex2UChBtw</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1690707:date=Oct 18 2008, 06:39 AM:name=Captain Skill)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Captain Skill @ Oct 18 2008, 06:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690707"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Forget it. Hell, that's not even a central point, so much as the absurd damage values that already exist for certain weapons/attacks, as well as the marine's lack of reaction to mortal injuries. Also, no, I'm not drawing on that idea 'at every point', it just stands to reason that something as relatively simplistic as a Plasmathrower is very doable when you've got teleportation and nanotech that allows for spontaneous materialization of complex objects and instantaneous healing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mortal injuries aside, because they do happen almost every time Marines get attacked by a higher lifeforms. Thing the Flame Thrower is needed in the game is purely for support. A Plasma Thrower would take that support only weapon to a close quarters life form and structure annihilator... Damage wise it'd be like a Focus Onos Gore attack every second it is on the target, not needed. Keep it at a Flame Thrower. If you are going to make a Plasma Thrower, make it a single burst of Plasma type weapon not a constant stream or maybe make a weaker stream as a secondary.
Also, the plasma can only can stream for 20-30 seconds, before you are out of ammo, so you're basicly forced to do burst fire.
You attack from behind/from unexpected angles. This may allow you to get enough bites in to kill, or at least do damage; either way, for a bottom tier alien messing with someone who has top tier weaponry, that's a pretty good result. Obviously you can't do this successfully versus marines in HA, but that's perfectly expected.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, have some more fluff: tounamentmode is the real thing, pub play is a simulation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So the whole 'friendly fire ' nanomagic system isn't canon? Don't think so. Either way the game is plagued with unreality.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Show how much you know about firearms. So which one of the two is curved, the bullet or the barrel? The no recoil nonsense is further amplified by the fact that the apparently curved bullets don't have parabolic trajectories. I believe the LMG animation just never got upgraded from the 1.04 one when the lmg was pin-point accurate, which is why you don't get visual recoil. (more or less a "bug" instead of an inconsistency)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Recoil is one factor (a large one granted) amongst many, which includes the environment, breathing, body twitching and pulsing (this exists even without recoil present, or amplifies the effects of small recoil), and gravity; shows how much I know indeed. As for the animation, that's simply your take. 'Prove it'. At worst, even assuming I'm wrong, it is a very minor point. Get a new argument.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Unanswerable objection =!= the drivel you posted. Drivel must be ignored unless the person arguing against is willing to stoop down to the level of the drivel itself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're right. In your case it's > than, and I entirely agree, although failing to debate with you might result in people getting the wrong idea unfortunately.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What is your idea of a supplemental ranged attack? Gorge spit? Couldn't really stop any marine unless you have minstrel like skill. Plus give fades gorge spit and now you have a ranged alien team which makes counter strike in space. I'm sorry, this just isn't NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, my idea of a supplemental ranged attack is something that's consistently useful. Further, one (1) solid non-hitscan (knowing the aliens) attack is not going to turn NS into 'Counterstrike in space'. Get real. Their core dynamic will still be melee; it is what they continue to excel and be best at.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because this = lower tier alien frustration = player quitting NS. It would be alright in a strategy game<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What's preventing said player from opting for a more effective lifeform?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You don't have to hear about it in order for it to be assumed. Also, the injuries they normally sustain and "survive through" with the aid of medpacks may very well be mortal injuries, they just don't have quite the power to completely put the marine out though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A central point like this would be definitely mentioned in the fluff if it were true at all; professional TSA Marines, the best of the best, the elite, doped up for a tactical response to the Kharaa? Please. Secondly, you get hit with an Onos gore, and you will have just about every bone in your body shattered in the extremely unlikely event you survive. Even with amphetamines, you will not be physically capable of moving, or even using the medpacks the commander drops.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Prove it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ryknow addresses this nicely. Getting gored by a rhino is usually instantaneously lethal. Getting gored by something many times as big, strong, heavy and mean definitely is.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nah you are thinking of recoil absorbing stocks/butts. I am talking about recoil dampening mechanical systems inside the gun firing mechanism or recoil diverting system. Such as the link below.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is what I'm speaking of.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Mortal injuries aside, because they do happen almost every time Marines get attacked by a higher lifeforms. Thing the Flame Thrower is needed in the game is purely for support. A Plasma Thrower would take that support only weapon to a close quarters life form and structure annihilator... Damage wise it'd be like a Focus Onos Gore attack every second it is on the target, not needed. Keep it at a Flame Thrower. If you are going to make a Plasma Thrower, make it a single burst of Plasma type weapon not a constant stream or maybe make a weaker stream as a secondary.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Plasmathrower is still a support weapon (this is not something you use as a primary/standard issue due to its limitations), albeit more orientated for the late game. Secondly, the game is awash in deviations from real life for the purposes of gameplay. Lowering the Plasmathrower's damage output from realistic levels, to ones that are more acceptable for gameplay is not beneath or beyond NS as far as taking creative license with reality is concerned. Marines feel no pain; they're not staggered by grievous boneshattering, life ending injuries, they can take and apply medikits instantly, even while bhopping around, guns blazing, to fully and completely recover from said injuries with equal rapidity. Hell, the whole premise of sending marines, rather than a neutron weapon to clear out the aliens is a gross offense against reality. Forget about it. Diminishing the Plasmathrower's damage is the least of these sorts of deviations.
Without meaning to go too far off of the rants everyone is having on certain types of plasma etc, I'd like to raise a couple of ideas (almost certainly on here a few times somewhere but I've not read anything in on this forum for a couple of years really).
1- The flamethrower should be made vaguely gassy, so that in confined areas (such as vents) it has a purpose, but it'd be useless over much range and generally in the open. Also, when being fired, there would be lots of flame and the person shooting (plus any allies) may therefore not be able to see. Plus sides of the weapon would be that it burns web, it's reasonably effective at killing skulks in vents, it's pretty, it's ok at pushing back DI.
2 - The flamethrower should be a napalm type weapon, a nice jet of liquid burning that stays about for a second or two. The fire should put up lots of smoke, preferably being easier for Kharaa to see through than marines. The weapon should also do damage based on the amount of an alien covered in the burningness / standing on or in fire - preferably to give a skulk plenty of time to kill the chap holding it it he hasn't support (but probably so that the skulk would die afterwards)
This could let the weapon be not entirely useless against huge targets (onos and structures) as you can coat them in burning, whilst not destroying small things.
Plus sides of the weapon would be mainly it's ability against large and static targets and DI - It may be no better than grenades though which would make it a pointless addition. Might be reasonable at area denial for a short while and could also look pretty.
Anything you can squirt around indiscriminately and kill skulks without them getting a chance wouldn't be too fun. HMGs always used to take a reasonable amount of skill to take full advantage of the power, I assume it's still sort of the same now. But if you can have a pretty weapon that means you've got burning skulks attacking you and smoke everywhere, that sounds interesting.
I've yet to catch up on how DI will work, but I'd assume that pushing it backwards could be a main role of a flamethrower - which surely means it doesn't have to be a hugely brilliant weapon? Whatever happens, atmosphere should be key. Having a moment where a marine or two is spraying fire into a corridor to counter alien weird growth, knowing they're vulnerable to counter attack, when suddenly a skulk leaps through the smoke and flame at them could be fun.
I have to say I disagree with most here. =[ But happily, a few people have made the same points as me, like noting how flamethrowers should be more effective on vents.
The flamethrower shouldn't be your typical spray of particles like hair-spray in front of you. :\
Most games do flamethrowers so badly.
They do them so badly because it doesn't have any sort of role.
The flamethrower should be a support and terror weapon, not a glowy glorified melee weapon.
A class range killer? Shotgun does that.
High DPS? HMG does that. You just have to aim better. What, you want to just land flames on someone and do some damage over time to make things easy? :\
Area effect? Grenades. I mean, really, flamethrower shouldn't spread much..
What I'd like to see is more akin to left 4 dead in some ways. You light zombies on fire, they go crazy. This makes fire something supportive. Of course, you aren't going to have a direct correlation of this into NS2, haivng people lit on fire then run around. But, if you're on fire, shouldn't it be harder to attack as well? Being on fire should slow people down and maybe obscure their vision.
The damage of the flamethrower I think should only be better than the pistol EXCEPT on vents. In an enclosed area the heat of a fire can't rise up and disapate, it'd spread through the vent. So something like doing double or tripple damage and bouncing off the walls so it can reach in deep easily. This gives the flamethrower another specific purpose.
And better at damaging buildings, that should be a given.
I want a real flamethrower. A liquid propellant one, shooting a line of fire.
Falmethrowers are always done so bad.
So, to recap:
-Anti-skulk ambushes, doing more damage and easier to hit when shooting into vents. An invisible modifier, but a very intuitive one. Flamethrowers were used in WW2 for clearing pillboxes and caves. When heat can'tspread up, it spreads out.
-Anti-building, buildings stay on fire much longer than players. Maybe a damage modifier to them too.. but then again, that's an invisible modifier(though a very intuitive one!)
-Minimal damage in open areas, more for hindering the enemy so it's easier for allies to kill them.
-Stream of fire, not a cone spray.
-Ammo should be limited, light all you can up briefly with well placed shots.
I think this would make it where you want one person in a squad packing a flamethrower to snare aliens and flush out vents, not a train of them spamming it.