On Learning Curves
Sirot
Join Date: 2006-12-03 Member: 58851Members
Join Date: 2006-12-03 Member: 58851Members
<div class="IPBDescription">A issue of communication and transperency.</div>It's been a while since I checked up on NS2 and even longer since I played NS1. I was catching up on the new developments and one thing caught my attention. Natural Selection 2 is very much like its predecessor. While that is a very good thing, but it has a bad side. Natural Selection was notoriously difficult to pick up and play because of its depth and a lack of elegance guiding players to offset that learning curve. Mostly this is an issue of <b><i>communication </i></b>and <b><i>transparency</i></b>.
When a player joins the round, he or she is heavily dependent on the team to explain what is happening. This takes up the time of players who already playing and more importantly, gives a barrier of entry to the joining player. If the player is new, this issue is even more severe. The objectives must be clear so that a player can jump in and immediately become effective. This is the issue of communication. A method must be designed to give the important information to players without having it becoming too complicated with a screen full of icons.
The second issue has more to do with the existing player base, not to put everyone in one category. To put it more bluntly: bunny hopping. Anything a player can't learn with trial and error given a reasonable amount of time is a problem. If a player sees something that they can't replicate themselves, that player might feel cheated or confused. Simply put, the game has to be logical in that sense that everything is transparent.
Not sure if this is anything worth discussing, but I want to get it out there. Sorry if I came off sounding harsh.
When a player joins the round, he or she is heavily dependent on the team to explain what is happening. This takes up the time of players who already playing and more importantly, gives a barrier of entry to the joining player. If the player is new, this issue is even more severe. The objectives must be clear so that a player can jump in and immediately become effective. This is the issue of communication. A method must be designed to give the important information to players without having it becoming too complicated with a screen full of icons.
The second issue has more to do with the existing player base, not to put everyone in one category. To put it more bluntly: bunny hopping. Anything a player can't learn with trial and error given a reasonable amount of time is a problem. If a player sees something that they can't replicate themselves, that player might feel cheated or confused. Simply put, the game has to be logical in that sense that everything is transparent.
Not sure if this is anything worth discussing, but I want to get it out there. Sorry if I came off sounding harsh.
Comments
The way to make NS1 easier for new players to get into is to add good in-game tutorials.
The basic issue you're bringing up is good - the game is unintuitive, but that's for completely different reasons.
Consider:
<i>The most obvious play is stealing resources (and the resulting win) away from the rest of your team, to change your gameplay style so radically that you can't possibly realize how to play it effectively, and then raging out of the game.</i>
Consider:
<i>DCs have synergy with OCs. The most intuitive choice when new is to drop OCs. Therefore, the most intuitive choice when new is to drop DCs, thereby inadvertently corrupting the global upgrades for the rest of your team.</i>
Consider:
<i>In every other game you attack whatever moves and doesn't look like you. In this game there is no way to avert getting shot, so even if you're good at dodging, you will still die by doing the most obvious thing. The answer is camping, which is generally discouraged in virtually every other game that exists.</i>
Consider:
<i>Aiming at leaping skulks is hard.</i>
Consider:
<i>Some people will refuse to learn no matter how intuitive you make a game.</i>
Blizzard has worked with that in mind since.. ever.. and it has obviously worked pretty well :-)
Even though I find myself a pretty decent gamer I still find NS hard. I always avoid going fade because it is too hard to master.
The fade seems to have been balanced best for hardcore players which can figure out to rush in, kill someone and then fly/blink out again at the blink of an eye.
It is a pretty nice tactic but it is very hard for many people to do that. Fades don't have that much HP so you can't avoid dying the first many times and dying as fade without killing anyone is 50res down the drain. It makes many people keep playing skulk the entire game.
And those are just the three he's created in this forum. There are more in the I&S forum and further back in this forum.
Sirot, your argument is a common one, so please trust that the devs(and the majority of this forum) are aware of all aspects of bunny hop by now.
Fixed.
And fading for kills isn't hard - Agamemnon can do it FFS. Just don't go in if there are 5 shotguns looking at you.
Now turning the tide of a game with a fade who's good at strategy is another thing.
A lot of the things that NS does is very conflicting to what most people expect from a FPS. This in turn can make it extremely frustrating for a new player. To use the humans as an example, I will list the three major things.
1 - You acquire weapons and items from a commander and there is no other way of getting them.
2 - There is a commander in the first place and there are RTS elements injected.
3 - The objectives are dynamic, resource points are contested and hives need to be exterminated.
These three things make NS very enjoyable to play but at the same time can give a high barrier of entry for a new player. This is on top of the strategy they have to learn and adapt to while playing the game. The latter two points can be easily fixed by creating a good HUD which gives marines information in a intuitive way. Weapon distribution is an issue that I have no good idea way of fixing without affecting the game too radically. What I want is to have game information easily accessible while in-game and things that aren't truly needed removed because that saves production time and makes for a more polished experience.
While this another discussion altogether, somehow I feel that a player having to sacrifice their own resources for the good of the alien team to build structures is a example of bad design and is an example of the things that would detract from a new player's experience.
Sacrificing your resoucres for the team isn't that bad as long as the lower lifeforms are as enjoyable as they are right now. With optimized skulk learning curve (which hopefully doesn't wreck the amazing enjoyment of the present lifeform) and improved gorge role the 'sacrifice' shouldn't be that bad. Even now many people seem to be using their res for buildings voluntarily.
You could even throttle the number of a given structure that could be dropped by a given player (say, I don't know... 3 of a chamber). But that seems like something you would do with a plugin.
This. You were making an important point about in-game communication that I often try to make, then at the end you delude it with the ever-explosive and derailing bit about bunnyhopping. They're two separate issues; make two separate threads about them. (Btw, the thread you would make about bunnyhopping would have endless "use the search function" replies.)
Hopefully everyone can stay on the topic of communication. I've said before that I think NS1's greatest flaw was how it relied on players to communicate. This is from the "The RTS Part" thread:
<!--quoteo(post=1689027:date=Sep 28 2008, 09:06 AM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SentrySteve @ Sep 28 2008, 09:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1689027"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS1's biggest flaw was how the RTS and FPS aspects of the game came together. Practically all communication was handled through the players, and I think that's a bad idea. A player who joins the marine team, and wants to be a team player, should be able to spawn and within about 10/15 seconds know exactly what the marines are trying to do and where he needs to go in order to help -- all without the aid of text or voice communication. If this was possible, teamwork (and the game itself) would flow much more naturally while freeing up voice communication for other details. I'd love to see a marine's hud show some kind of indicators that the commander can set letting the whole team know where to go. Something like "Current Node Target(s): Triad. Current Hive Target: Maintenance. Build Node(s): Horseshoe, PSJ."
If a team can communicate through features in the game, the RTS and FPS parts will blend together much better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who knows -- maybe hitting "O" can bring up the "Objectives" menu where the commander can set objectives on the fly. A small icon in a corner of the screen could flash every time the commander updates objectives, alerting marines of the new targets.
I'd even love to see empty text fields and drop down menus. That way the comm can type in "Target all gorges." or "Everyone with JP's head through X hive's vents." The drop down menus would work well on something like "Defend room: Triad" or "Attack Node: PSJ" where every room/node would be in the drop down box. How great would it be when a player clicked something like "Triad" or "PSJ" a waypoint was automatically created showing that person where to go?
On a scale of 1 to great, that would be about a 'great.'
anyway, I do agree that experienced players shouldn't have the advantage that they've worked for taken away, but it is overall harmful to the game to leave no room for new blood.
I don't really have any specifics, but TF2 has no depth or skill at all.
Sorry to disagree with you there, but there is a large difference between an experienced player and a new player in TF2. Now I did admit there is much more depth to NS, and certain skills like bunny hopping give experienced players an advantage, but that doesn't discount the fact that there are many things to TF2 beyond "shoot that guy over there". intelligent sentry placement, the whole spy class, effective use of scout double jump, I could go on but you get the idea. Anyway, the issue isn't about our opinions of TF2, It's about the learning curve in NS, which is incredibly sharp, and could be made smoother with a few tweaks. If you'd just like to put people down all day, continue to do so, but if you want to contribute, come up with some ideas on how to make it easier on the new player, or why you think it shouldn't be easier if you don't agree.
True, but there isn't a large difference between an experienced player and an experienced player. Crits and other luck factors play the game for you.
Bottom line: If xensity can be a top3 team in a popular game, game doesn't take/have a lot of skill. I've learned everything there is to learn about the soldier class in about a month and gained perfect proficiency in 3 months. This isn't my idea of a game that has a high skill ceiling. To put that in perspective, I've been playing SC for about 8 years and I still occasionally get so balled by some Korean that it makes me want to cry.
Pretty true, or at least the difference in game skill doesn't make you that much better.
<!--quoteo(post=1690850:date=Oct 20 2008, 09:57 AM:name=aNytiMe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aNytiMe @ Oct 20 2008, 09:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690850"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Crits and other luck factors play the game for you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a gross exaggeration. I don't like the crit system personally and think TF2 lacks depth, but for slightly <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=104779&view=findpost&p=1688632" target="_blank">different reasons</a>. Crits don't play the game for you and they are (halfheartedly) tied to skill. You still have to make the right shot at the right time and survive long enough for the crit chance.
I put "other luck factors" there for a reason. Another overwhelming gameplay hole in TF2 is the factor of being the right class at the right time, or having a rocket/sticky/sniper crosshairs in the right place. Getting a scout to fluke out and flank the enemy medic also plays a role. In 2fort, having one soldier and a demo rocket up to the battlements at the right time wins the game, and at other time forces the attackers to regroup based on <u>when</u> exactly the attacking team got their kills.
You won't believe how many scrims I won by spamming rockets down a hallway/corridor and getting 50 instant crit kills. TF2 is the only game where throwing yourself at the enemy and hoping for a lucky critical is a valid winning tactic.
I don't consider knowing where to aim a rocket/sniper rifle, choosing the right class for a job, knowing when to take and hold the high ground, and knowing when to press an attack "luck" so much as "knowing how to play the game".
<!--quoteo(post=1690862:date=Oct 20 2008, 11:47 AM:name=aNytiMe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aNytiMe @ Oct 20 2008, 11:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690862"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You won't believe how many scrims I won by spamming rockets down a hallway/corridor and getting 50 instant crit kills. TF2 is the only game where throwing yourself at the enemy and hoping for a lucky critical is a valid winning tactic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not how I play it, and any team that does that gets killed hard in scrims. Most of the scrims I play are crits off anyway, and when that's gone, there's no more "luck". The game also gets more boring though.
I played against a couple xen players a few months ago (on a bad pc, dueling scouts) and held up fine. I wasn't dominating or getting domm'd. I think they had a few more kills just because they play more, but with the amount that they play, and the fact that I don't play the game -at all- they should have wiped the floor with me.
The only thing that is up to the player's control is positioning of players relative to teammates and enemies. However, these positions can be advantageous or death traps depending on divine intervention. It really is a coin toss. Knowing where to send rockets/stickies/crosshairs takes no more than a month to learn, after that it is mostly luck.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's not how I play it, and any team that does that gets killed hard in scrims. Most of the scrims I play are crits off anyway, and when that's gone, there's no more "luck". The game also gets more boring though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We had two soldiers and a demo and we took turns "xenociding" into center of enemy mass. Needless to say, crits won many games against the best teams at the time of shotgun shootout. Also, heavy crits are lawn mowers.
Turning crits off makes the game run by scouts.
Well that and you're actively trying to flank the enemy. It's not "oh look I was magically teleported behind the enemy", but "the enemy is engaged over there so I'm going to use this alternate path to get behind them". The enemy now has the choice to devote resources to cover his flank, or press the attack and risk incurring loses. Of course this is at the expense of your own resources. Calling it divine intervention is like saying "that Terran player got lucky because sieged his tanks on the cliff."
Whereas in counterstrike- despite how boring I find the game personally, you do have to pay attention as the state of the game is constantly in flux, while behaving according to predictable rulesets such as "if I'm a long way away from an awp, and out in the open, I will die".
That.
You're basically making a coin toss in TF2 - heads or tails. Heads you throw your invul too early. Tails you throw your invul at the right time and nullify the demo stickies. This exists in SC also. If you're in a tvp and you are feeling ballsy, you're going to do a 3fac all-in. Heads, toss goes dt and rolls you, tails toss goes dumb unit and you roll him.
Sure, that's the case the first round/match, but it isn't luck the next few rounds. Again this is no different from any other game.
Most likely the metagame revolves a lot more on the team synergy and such than 1on1 scout mirror.
Nevertheless they should be dominating you on ns logic IMHO. Individual potential is an essential part of the NS as long as it doesn't take too much away from some decisionmaking and teamwork.
I fully recognize that NS1 was extremely difficult to pick up and enjoy and we are addressing this big time for NS2. I think it will be much more accessible and with at least as much depth. Here are some specifics on how we're doing this:
- Waypoints show players how to get to their destination, not just what their destination is. It will draw arrows showing you which door/vent to go through next to get to your final destination (using AI pathfinding).
- The Commander and non-Comms are more decoupled so they can each be more effective on their own. Of course the best teams will have everyone working together, but Commanders will be able to be effective with braindead non-Comms (through the use of AI builder bots/nymphs and spell-like abilities) and the ability for marines to buy their own weapons/equipment from armories.
- The maps are much smaller, denser and more logically laid out. Instead of a sprawling network of halls and non-rooms, maps are made up of 6-10 rooms, each with a "landmark" (lighting, custom props, theme) to help players characterize it easily. This should also make the maps simple enough to navigate that we can get rid of the minimap, ala TF2.
- All weapons and alien abilities especially have an obvious function when you use them and should be learnable without reading anything or asking anyone anything.
- Lots more.
"The maps are much smaller, denser and more logically laid out." = 10 years old dummies who play WOW all day long. damn, make people use their intelligence.
listen to competitive players a bit more, not pubstars, please
Please make the waypointing so that i can turn it off if I don't need it as the waypoints just take space on the screen and no one even uses them in competitive play.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- The Commander and non-Comms are more decoupled so they can each be more effective on their own. Of course the best teams will have everyone working together, but Commanders will be able to be effective with braindead non-Comms (through the use of AI builder bots/nymphs and spell-like abilities) and the ability for marines to buy their own weapons/equipment from armories.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have nothing smart to say about this atm. With the guys on the field buying their own weapons we could probably see stupid combinations with 50% of the team blasting their way with grenade launchers, this would also just leave even less stuff for the commander to do with AI builders and all.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- The maps are much smaller, denser and more logically laid out. Instead of a sprawling network of halls and non-rooms, maps are made up of 6-10 rooms, each with a "landmark" (lighting, custom props, theme) to help players characterize it easily. This should also make the maps simple enough to navigate that we can get rid of the minimap, ala TF2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have to disagree with this one. The maps in NS1 are just perfect in size and complexity. Probably every person who is playing the game or ever played the game knows the maps and if not, can use the minimap to see where the commander is asking him to go.
Will there still be names for places in maps? With the removal of the minimap you would have to come up with weird names for places on your own to guide the players and to inform your team about what is happening on the map.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- All weapons and alien abilities especially have an obvious function when you use them and should be learnable without reading anything or asking anyone anything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some people have trouble understanding that the bilebomb infact does not kill marines but that is probably the only problem in this area.
*Ninjaedit*
How am i supposed to know where all my teammates are at if i have no minimap?