<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the SMG has a larger cone than the LMG, that makes it a downscale HMG clone, and that isn't an original weapon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So by this logic the shotgun isn't an 'original weapon' because it has a larger spread cone than the LMG?
Im all for new secondary weapons that can be droped like primarys, but the SMG idea u have isnt what i'd go for, too cloneish, not enough diversity from the other weapons.
<!--quoteo(post=1690094:date=Oct 12 2008, 07:19 PM:name=Captain Skill)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Captain Skill @ Oct 12 2008, 07:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690094"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And a smaller clip size, and lower DPS; all points on which the HMG differs from the LMG.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You've got hmg and lmg with very similar aiming routines. LMG is a mobile all around gun, HMG is a less mobile anti-lifeform gun. Now, SMG has a very similar aiming routine too and it resembles LMG in every aspect except that its a sidearm. I don't think the variability from LMG and HMG is the best argument there is. I'd say newbie friendliness and pistol's spam dependency are the things worth consdering.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->no, it does more dmg per pellet
Im all for new secondary weapons that can be droped like primarys, but the SMG idea u have isnt what i'd go for, too cloneish, not enough diversity from the other weapons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Similar to how the SMG has a lower DPS?
Again, if you're going to call out the SMG for being a 'clone', which it clearly isn't, be prepared to take your 'logic' to its ultimate conclusion and level that accusation at HMGs.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You've got hmg and lmg with very similar aiming routines. LMG is a mobile all around gun, HMG is a less mobile anti-lifeform gun. Now, SMG has a very similar aiming routine too and it resembles LMG in every aspect except that its a sidearm. I don't think the variability from LMG and HMG is the best argument there is. I'd say newbie friendliness and pistol's spam dependency are the things worth consdering.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually it doesn't. Differing DPS, spread, and ammo clip/reserve sizes are all considerable, meaningful differences between the LMG and SMG; if you would argue that discrepancies here are not meaningful, you are plainly wrong. Secondly, I agree that the SMG's differences with the LMG are not the most compelling reasons for it's implementation; these were stated in specific defense to silly objections. As stated before, the main argument for their inclusion is to provide marines with specialist primaries a solid, versatile and reliable back up weapon.
Well, I'll argue any logic a person puts in front of me, so ask me a logic question and you'll get a pretty answer.
Well, you can already see the SMG isn't getting any support, why not drop your position for it, and rather push for the more wider idea people agree on, which is part of your initial argument, new secondary guns that can be dropped like the primaries.
Ryknow, whether or not his idea is popular or not is irrelevant, plus I sort of agree with it, however not as he envisions it in the game at all.
I can't picture a weapon which is going to be weaker than the LMG as terribly useful to a player. Make up a lot more other factors this gun is going to influence besides the sole balancing fire rate vs spread vs clip size vs damage. I propose speed + jump power as a MAJOR consideration.
Personally, I think the only meaningful barrier the SMG suffers is the fact that the LMG is apparently inferior to the pistol. This is retarded, and a clear balance/realism issue. I don't care what sophistry is used to justify the position that the pistol needs to be superior; it doesn't, and shouldn't. One is a semi-automatic sidearm, the other is a fully automatic machine gun; there should be no question as to which weapon is more lethal and effective. When the LMG is made superior to the pistol as it must be, the SMG suddenly becomes perfectly viable as a secondary substitute.
The pistol should not be a superior weapon overall, and according to some, its DPS is also superior (again I am assuming scripted firing). End of story. Even if it's more accurate, this doesn't make an iota of sense; machine guns/rifles have far greater effective ranges, and are often more accurate on semi-auto fire.
I'm a big fan of SMGs in games and think an SMG would be a good addition to the arsenal. However, I think as a dropable secondary this could be an issue since it also doesn't prevent someone from toting a LMG and a SMG (which seems to defeat the purpose of running out of ammo and panicing which I find an important part of NS <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />). One of the major pros of NS is how specialization works. Shotguns are designed to get in close while GLs are designed to do maximum damage. You can't expect to snipe with a shot gun, and you probably are going to die if you get overran by a pack of skulks while holding a GL. I think that SMGs would have to play as a support role to such specializations. This probably should be in a new post as I am presenting a new topic, but it is aimed to support the SMG:
What about a kit system? In NS1, really only primary weapons were ever replaced. If we are to talk about replacing the secondary weapon, we should think that there may be more than just one way to do it (instead of a secondary weapon drop). What if, to keep the balance, the primary and secondary weapons were part of a kit dropped by the commander. Roughly, kits would work like this: LMG+Pistol, Shotgun+Pistol, HMG+Pistol, GL+SMG, Flamer+SMG with SMG stats as follows:
DPS: comparable or equivelent to LMG Rate: comparable or equivelent to LMG Mag Size: 30 rounds Max Ammo: 90 rounds (3 magazines) Cone: comparable or equivelent to HMG
The point here is to make the SMG a downgraded version of the LMG which might be more preferable over the pistol in certain situations - specifically when the primary weapon functions for a highly specific task, yet would not detract from that player's role in the game as, though more effective than a pistol versus a pack of aliens, is still less effective than an LMG. This forces players to still focus on properly using their primary weapons, but can give them a quick out in case of being overrun or having to quickly adjust to a new situation. Thoughts?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm a big fan of SMGs in games and think an SMG would be a good addition to the arsenal. However, I think as a dropable secondary this could be an issue since it also doesn't prevent someone from toting a LMG and a SMG (which seems to defeat the purpose of running out of ammo and panicing which I find an important part of NS wink-fix.gif)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see much of a problem with this given that it is an advantage that must be paid for, and isn't particularly overpowering.
<!--quoteo(post=1690708:date=Oct 18 2008, 01:40 PM:name=Captain Skill)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Captain Skill @ Oct 18 2008, 01:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690708"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why would I slap exacting numbers on something I can't personally playtest?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Then you have insufficient NS1 experience and shouldn't be suggesting weapon ideas. I can perfectly visualize how any weapon can fit into the NS world and how to make it perfectly balanced from the start.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then you have insufficient NS1 experience and shouldn't be suggesting weapon ideas. I can perfectly visualize how any weapon can fit into the NS world and how to make it perfectly balanced from the start.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No you can't. That's utter hubris. You are not a machine or prodigy capable of instantaneously arriving at a conclusion that developers, the people who professionally design games, pay playtesters many months to imperfectly work out, nor are you Ryknow, *especially* in the context of a game with largely unknown content. Don't kid yourselves.
Dude, you don't even know the specifics of the weapon, and again, those of the game it will be used in. There is no way the weapon, and its balance/viability can be 'perfectly' visualized therefore.
<!--quoteo(post=1690848:date=Oct 20 2008, 01:33 PM:name=Captain Skill)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Captain Skill @ Oct 20 2008, 01:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690848"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dude, you don't even know the specifics of the weapon, and again, those of the game it will be used in. There is no way the weapon, and its balance/viability can be 'perfectly' visualized therefore.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Here is an example: Take the LMG, make it shoot 2x faster. It now does 200dps. The gameplay effect is that skulks die exactly 2x faster. Take a shotgun, keep the damage and make it shoot 2x faster with an automatic fire mode. Alien team gets shredded with no remorse. You <u>know</u> you said the wrong thing when you said you can't visualize weapon changes.
I think alot of people are expecting the pistol to be a sniper again, I doubt it will be. it is an interesting idea
edit: sorry to say but alot of you "pros" need to get off your high horse. comments like "I can perfectly visualize how any weapon can fit into the NS world and how to make it perfectly balanced from the start." and "I, most 'Pros' can just feel how it will affect gameplay when they go into NS." stop being so condescending, comments like that make you look like such a ######
No one even mentions that there is an other weapon, probably because its so damn weak. I have never seen any one pull it out unless they are out of all ammo(in store and in the gun) for all weapons and theres a gorge running at them. and they have no other hope of escape or teammates to save them. and they have no mic and the com is afk...
I think that the pistol and LMG are balanced and there is no need to add another full automatic gun. Really, in a video game whats the difference between an machine pistol, a sub machine gun and a machine gun.
Some one please make a better knife. I don't want a light saber of instant death, I want a moderate knife that can occasionally kill an almost dead sulk.
PS with marine damage percent set to 100 and alien set to 150 (defult) LMG 10 dps 50 in a clip and a steady stream of bullets Pistol 20 dps 10 in a cip and semi auto knife 30 dps no range sulk bite 75 dps no range sulk 80 life
Theres no way a half decent player could empty all (60) of his rounds and not have killed a sulk or died. But for a the noob who lets a sulk get near, he has about two seconds (two shots for both the knife and the sulk) to pull out a knife and kill it or be killed.
PPS the only thing this does is make everyone stick together more, making it harder on the lower life forms.
Comments
So by this logic the shotgun isn't an 'original weapon' because it has a larger spread cone than the LMG?
Im all for new secondary weapons that can be droped like primarys, but the SMG idea u have isnt what i'd go for, too cloneish, not enough diversity from the other weapons.
You've got hmg and lmg with very similar aiming routines. LMG is a mobile all around gun, HMG is a less mobile anti-lifeform gun. Now, SMG has a very similar aiming routine too and it resembles LMG in every aspect except that its a sidearm. I don't think the variability from LMG and HMG is the best argument there is. I'd say newbie friendliness and pistol's spam dependency are the things worth consdering.
Im all for new secondary weapons that can be droped like primarys, but the SMG idea u have isnt what i'd go for, too cloneish, not enough diversity from the other weapons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Similar to how the SMG has a lower DPS?
Again, if you're going to call out the SMG for being a 'clone', which it clearly isn't, be prepared to take your 'logic' to its ultimate conclusion and level that accusation at HMGs.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You've got hmg and lmg with very similar aiming routines. LMG is a mobile all around gun, HMG is a less mobile anti-lifeform gun. Now, SMG has a very similar aiming routine too and it resembles LMG in every aspect except that its a sidearm. I don't think the variability from LMG and HMG is the best argument there is. I'd say newbie friendliness and pistol's spam dependency are the things worth consdering.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually it doesn't. Differing DPS, spread, and ammo clip/reserve sizes are all considerable, meaningful differences between the LMG and SMG; if you would argue that discrepancies here are not meaningful, you are plainly wrong. Secondly, I agree that the SMG's differences with the LMG are not the most compelling reasons for it's implementation; these were stated in specific defense to silly objections. As stated before, the main argument for their inclusion is to provide marines with specialist primaries a solid, versatile and reliable back up weapon.
Well, you can already see the SMG isn't getting any support, why not drop your position for it, and rather push for the more wider idea people agree on, which is part of your initial argument, new secondary guns that can be dropped like the primaries.
I can't picture a weapon which is going to be weaker than the LMG as terribly useful to a player. Make up a lot more other factors this gun is going to influence besides the sole balancing fire rate vs spread vs clip size vs damage. I propose speed + jump power as a MAJOR consideration.
What about a kit system? In NS1, really only primary weapons were ever replaced. If we are to talk about replacing the secondary weapon, we should think that there may be more than just one way to do it (instead of a secondary weapon drop). What if, to keep the balance, the primary and secondary weapons were part of a kit dropped by the commander. Roughly, kits would work like this: LMG+Pistol, Shotgun+Pistol, HMG+Pistol, GL+SMG, Flamer+SMG with SMG stats as follows:
DPS: comparable or equivelent to LMG
Rate: comparable or equivelent to LMG
Mag Size: 30 rounds
Max Ammo: 90 rounds (3 magazines)
Cone: comparable or equivelent to HMG
The point here is to make the SMG a downgraded version of the LMG which might be more preferable over the pistol in certain situations - specifically when the primary weapon functions for a highly specific task, yet would not detract from that player's role in the game as, though more effective than a pistol versus a pack of aliens, is still less effective than an LMG. This forces players to still focus on properly using their primary weapons, but can give them a quick out in case of being overrun or having to quickly adjust to a new situation. Thoughts?
I don't see much of a problem with this given that it is an advantage that must be paid for, and isn't particularly overpowering.
Then you have insufficient NS1 experience and shouldn't be suggesting weapon ideas. I can perfectly visualize how any weapon can fit into the NS world and how to make it perfectly balanced from the start.
No you can't. That's utter hubris. You are not a machine or prodigy capable of instantaneously arriving at a conclusion that developers, the people who professionally design games, pay playtesters many months to imperfectly work out, nor are you Ryknow, *especially* in the context of a game with largely unknown content. Don't kid yourselves.
Here is an example: Take the LMG, make it shoot 2x faster. It now does 200dps. The gameplay effect is that skulks die exactly 2x faster. Take a shotgun, keep the damage and make it shoot 2x faster with an automatic fire mode. Alien team gets shredded with no remorse. You <u>know</u> you said the wrong thing when you said you can't visualize weapon changes.
edit: sorry to say but alot of you "pros" need to get off your high horse. comments like "I can perfectly visualize how any weapon can fit into the NS world and how to make it perfectly balanced from the start." and "I, most 'Pros' can just feel how it will affect gameplay when they go into NS." stop being so condescending, comments like that make you look like such a ######
No one even mentions that there is an other weapon, probably because its so damn weak. I have never seen any one pull it out unless they are out of all ammo(in store and in the gun) for all weapons and theres a gorge running at them. and they have no other hope of escape or teammates to save them. and they have no mic and the com is afk...
I think that the pistol and LMG are balanced and there is no need to add another full automatic gun. Really, in a video game whats the difference between an machine pistol, a sub machine gun and a machine gun.
Some one please make a better knife. I don't want a light saber of instant death, I want a moderate knife that can occasionally kill an almost dead sulk.
PS
with marine damage percent set to 100 and alien set to 150 (defult)
LMG 10 dps 50 in a clip and a steady stream of bullets
Pistol 20 dps 10 in a cip and semi auto
knife 30 dps no range
sulk bite 75 dps no range
sulk 80 life
Theres no way a half decent player could empty all (60) of his rounds and not have killed a sulk or died.
But for a the noob who lets a sulk get near, he has about two seconds (two shots for both the knife and the sulk) to pull out a knife and kill it or be killed.
PPS the only thing this does is make everyone stick together more, making it harder on the lower life forms.