Intuition, Skill, and Alien Lifeforms
Radix
Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34654Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34654Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">A redirection of the bunny hop thread O.O</div><!--quoteo(post=1688502:date=Sep 20 2008, 12:16 PM:name=juice)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(juice @ Sep 20 2008, 12:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1688502"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Instead of stripping down the skulk (ooh sexeh? or not) by taking away movement skill, there are other solutions to your concern, steppin. For example, what about making the gorge the newb class? With the alien commander, the gorge could be given waypoints/buildpoints, the res would be spent well without a skill or strategy component, and the player would feel that he contributed to the team. Of course expert gorges could still exist alongside them. In addition, gorge is the best class to observe how the overall game plays out, and learn from it.
Then, a gorge tutorial where waypoints/buildpoints are given would be an excellent entry point into the game of NS. Learning curve disaster averted. Other classes, and bhop/airspeed, could be learned here and there along the way. In fact that's exactly my experience of NS cause I had a bad computer the first year I played it(think 14-25 fps). Eventually I got a real computer and learned to be a great fade and bhop with the big dogs.
Radix your point seemed interesting but I don't understand what you were saying with the atmospheric mystique thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the Gorge is the newb class, she needs some kind of gameplay system beyond "spit down hallway, get rushed, not know how to get away via bhop, get killed, rage, skulk-straightline, die, rage, repeat". There's TONS of things you could do to make gorges lives more interesting, and making them the default class may be a great way to intuitively teach new players about the alien side of the game before they go trying to dom meatpops.
About the mystique of res######s, it just means that things would be recognized for how they really are. If a bad player goes onos, they can often look good because it's REALLY HARD to ###### up using an onos unless marines have jetpacks or are exceedingly competent. What I'm saying is that, via the difficulty of the advanced lifeforms, you would subconsciously telegraph to new players "Yes, this is hard. Yes, he is good at it. Yes, you need to be a support role."
Rather than trying to assuage feelings of inferiority, I'm arguing that you should increase them, and allow players to play sides of the game <i>as they become ready for them</i> and no sooner. All the time I see terrible players pretending to be good and ignoring their teams - <b>this element of increasing skill will, paradoxically, simultaneously increase teamplay</b>.
Making powerful lifeforms easy is exactly like making heavy armors - they're not fun to play or play against because they're just really hard to kill with the exact same gameplay.
Then, a gorge tutorial where waypoints/buildpoints are given would be an excellent entry point into the game of NS. Learning curve disaster averted. Other classes, and bhop/airspeed, could be learned here and there along the way. In fact that's exactly my experience of NS cause I had a bad computer the first year I played it(think 14-25 fps). Eventually I got a real computer and learned to be a great fade and bhop with the big dogs.
Radix your point seemed interesting but I don't understand what you were saying with the atmospheric mystique thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the Gorge is the newb class, she needs some kind of gameplay system beyond "spit down hallway, get rushed, not know how to get away via bhop, get killed, rage, skulk-straightline, die, rage, repeat". There's TONS of things you could do to make gorges lives more interesting, and making them the default class may be a great way to intuitively teach new players about the alien side of the game before they go trying to dom meatpops.
About the mystique of res######s, it just means that things would be recognized for how they really are. If a bad player goes onos, they can often look good because it's REALLY HARD to ###### up using an onos unless marines have jetpacks or are exceedingly competent. What I'm saying is that, via the difficulty of the advanced lifeforms, you would subconsciously telegraph to new players "Yes, this is hard. Yes, he is good at it. Yes, you need to be a support role."
Rather than trying to assuage feelings of inferiority, I'm arguing that you should increase them, and allow players to play sides of the game <i>as they become ready for them</i> and no sooner. All the time I see terrible players pretending to be good and ignoring their teams - <b>this element of increasing skill will, paradoxically, simultaneously increase teamplay</b>.
Making powerful lifeforms easy is exactly like making heavy armors - they're not fun to play or play against because they're just really hard to kill with the exact same gameplay.
Comments
The risky downside to this is that the skill level of only a COUPLE PLAYERS might decide the fate of the ENTIRE MATCH. Another way of putting that is...MOST of the players on the team don't matter. This problem is solved by making the upper lifeforms less skill orientated than the lower lifeforms. Why?..because the extra power of the upper lifeforms already significantly increases the importance of that player's importance to the team. Therefore most teams STILL put their most skillful players in these rolls.
It is totally illogical to think making the most important classes the most skillful will increase team play, it will do the EXACT OPPOSITE. This translates to...only the skill level of 1-2 people matters. This does not increase teamplay, it makes it so ONE MAN IS THE TEAM.
As for pub play..where you suggest new players will just "not go fade", thats even more retarded. First of, it is totally arrogant to make the clame that new players should be on restriction from exploring the higher levels of the game. Second, it doesn't really matter how arrogant you are, new players are going to try upperlifeforms no matter what, totally ######ing their team even more than they would now.
Simply put, skill level progressing with lifeform progression is a bad idea.
As for the lower class being intuitive...this is obviously a good thing, but that question is in the form of "should we scrap the amazing game-making incredibly fun mechanic of bhopping just because it isn't totally intuitive?" You have to remember, both new players and experienced players spend most of their time playing skulk.
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It is totally illogical to think making the most important classes the most skillful will increase team play, it will do the EXACT OPPOSITE. This translates to...only the skill level of 1-2 people matters.
...
This does not increase teamplay, it makes it so ONE MAN IS THE TEAM.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What you've described is NS in its exact form at this time, so I don't understand whatever argument you're trying to make.
What you're missing is that when newbies realize they can't strongarm the game (I'm talking about public play - intuition is completely irrelevant to competitive) they will either quit or look for other options, and one great option is teamwork. If you test it, I'm fairly sure you'll get players automatically 1) using the intuition of the new early classes as a springboard for learning the game and 2) funneling the best players into the roles they find most frustrating so that they can enjoy the game more in the ways that they find rewarding.
As to arrogance, it doesn't negate the fact that if a player finds it more frustrating to fade than to skulk or gorge, they will stop doing it. This is not to say that they will make a conscious decision, only that they will react favorably to positive experiences. When you begin talking about intuition, you have to think about what the player doesn't realize consciously, because if they were playing consciously, they wouldn't need intuitive gameplay in the first place (although they would still benefit from it in the first few days of playing).
As far as bunnyhopping, I've posted at least as many arguments as anyone else in its favor, but that's not the purpose of this thread.
I can see how the idea works, but I don't know how far you can take it on ns styled gameplay without making the early game dull. I don't really know good your average gamer is at figuring things out either. If people realized the basic nature of the skulk, we wouldn't most likely be discussing this.
<b>Skill</b>
Yes, currently NS gets 'easier' as the classes get 'bigger'. The suggestion was that it should be the opposite, that the base class should be 'easy' and the upper lifeforms should be 'hard'. I disagree with this suggestion.
Although this suggestion might make the game slightly more entertaining for bad players their first 4 minutes, it would make skilled players dislike playing this base class. As stated...the game is already decided very much by the upper lifeforms, but not entirely, the skill level of the lower classes still matters. What is important to note is that MOST PLAYERS spend MOST of their time as skulk. What you are suggesting would literally make the skill level of MOST PLAYERS on a team not matter. Although skulks don't dominate, skilled players still enjoying playing as them. If you make it 'retarded', that will not be true.
The important point here is that in order for the game to remain a team game and an entertaining one, the skill level of everyone has to matter. If you make the lower lifeforms totally skillless (which is the lifeform most people play) the game will not be fun for those players.
<b>Intuition</b>
Everyone agrees that intuitive game play helps new players. Ideally the entire game is intuitive; its like suggesting not to make cookies that taste like dog crap. So the only important argument here is how important intuitive gameplay is in comparison to entertaining and skillful gameplay.
I agree that removing bunny hopping from the base class would make the class more intuitive to play and be better for new players. The problem is, as stated above, the base class needs to remain skillful. While the "ideal" solution would be to make a more intuitive mechanic that is equally skillful and entertaining... I just don't think the dev team will be able to come up with some revolutionary new mechanic that will be able to compete with the skill level and entertainment that bunny hopping encapsulates.
<b>Both</b>
Personally, I rank long term skill and entertainment WAY above short term intuitive gameplay. I do not think long term gameplay should be significantly sacrificed to sway new players. Far too often does this create a popular games, that a lot of people play, but no one actually enjoys playing. This is what I like to call the EA Games effect. This is not to say that both are 'impossible', just that both are often difficult to achieve (example, bunny hopping is basically the foundation for long term NS gameplay).
I know you're not exactly suggesting to put onos as the starting class and make skulks the 75 resource lifeform, but what would be your suggestion? I can't imagine making it *less* intuitive and more skill-based for higher level life forms without making it more difficult in general.
You have to remember that it is a double-edged sword. It works both ways. Those with higher skill who would normally 'dominate' the match without high lifeforms would not only cause other lower skilled players to do well as higher lifeforms (and thus making it not so 'skill-domination'), but it would also make it more difficult for those with higher skill to kill the opponent even with lesser skill but with Jetpacks or Heavy Armor.
In essence, lets say that playing well is definitely a plus, but it doesn't mean you can win it on your own. Having the newb who went onos and is drawing fire away from you, the fade, is already doing something useful for the team. In any other game (counterstrike comes to mind), either you would have dominated and nearly killed them all or you would have been one of those dominated. The newb wouldn't have done much more than make some worm's day when fresh food landed on his front doorstep.
I can see how the idea works, but I don't know how far you can take it on ns styled gameplay without making the early game dull. I don't really know good your average gamer is at figuring things out either. If people realized the basic nature of the skulk, we wouldn't most likely be discussing this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you guys are giving bunnyhop too much credit. The player that tears up public server isn't good because he knows how to bunnyhop, he's good because he's put so many hours in that he can consistently hit on the first/second/third bites/swipes, knows where to ambush and where players ambush from, can generally aim, and knows where to be to get the action(and also be in an advantageous situation when doing it), can move as a marine without bunnyhop and knows how other players move, etc. Changing bunnyhop will not greatly affect the skill gap. Making bhop accessible to lower level players is good and will help towards making the curve shallower, but there will be "one-man-bands" and really this is desirable. The whole point of discussing matchmaking systems early was not to dumb down the skill curve, but give players an easy way to find similarly skilled players.
edit: affect != effect
I didn't say that. Ok for example, a jetpack marine is harder to control overall, because at the point in the game where it's useful, you're generally required to put yourself in more dangerous situations than you would otherwise (for example, the second hive and at least one fade is usually up, or the game is over and it's a moot point). When you have to find a medium between movement and aim while you're jetting around, and have to interpret the game world while that damn noise is playing in the background, it gets much more complicated, and more difficult, <i>given the fact that the game has progressed to where you need to extend further to get the desired results</i>. I hope that disclaimer eliminates any counterargument that "jetpacks are objectively better than light marines so it's easier to play them".
The point I'm making is that once you pick up a jetpack and are put in that situation, you have to play better than you would as a light marine (you simply don't have the opportunity to exploit movement as a light that you do with a jet). This is why jetpacks are only given to good players (ideally). This addition of new skill doesn't negate how fun it is to dom galiens in the first few minutes of a game with a shotgun or an LMG - it makes the higher tech tree require more skill while leaving the early game intuitive <i>and skillful in its own right</i>.
<b><!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->In no way am I suggesting that you would give skulks guns, make bite autokill a marine, remove bunny hop <i>or</i> airspeed control (which are wholly different), or in any other way dumb down the early style of the game. I'm not even necessarily suggesting that you would change the early game mechanics at all. What I'm suggesting is that you should give new players an <i>intuitive</i> start to the game, and give advanced players an advantage when the game ramps up. This will cause an easily visible division between people who belong with jetpacks, and those that belong with a simple HMG, and will allow new players to clearly see that they are bad, rather than leading them on and pretending that they can play because they have UA 17.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>
Is that clear? Because I agree with virtually everything you said.
Get off your high horses. Bunnyhop was never an intended mechanic of the HL1 engine, in games such as TFC and CS it was fully or partially removed. People who couldn't devise thoughtful or clever approaches to overcoming the short-fallings of a melee class came to rely on this glitch to beat a marine with a decent aim and mind to move backwards.
Dumbing down the early classes and making it more difficult to play the later classes is doing one thing, and one thing only... making the learning curve ridiculously concave. Right now it's a decently straight slope and is how it should be.
If UWE would be stupid enough to follow your advise... as you actually stated yourself... half of their customers would stop playing the game right off the bat, half would apparently endure the frustration and just stay as skulks and gorges... and then you and your 'l337' pals can all go fade/onos and look like heros. yay. go you.
edit: affect != effect<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've actually been thinking this for a long while. I though the whole discussion was about creating a starting lifeform that doesn't require so much gaming sense and skill to play, not bhop. I think you're absolutely right about the bhop. As for the rest of the topic: I'm really worried about making games too inuitive to get started. I've seen so many games fumble because they're supposed to be easy to play. By all means, make it as easy as possible as long as it doesn't end up screwing the great game ns1 was.
If you would like to spend an egregious amount of your <b>team's</b> resource pool, you should be prepared to make their investment worth its opportunity cost, by being worth your salt.
Also, you've covered more than 100% of the potential players in your argument. Moreover, a concave learning curve would result in the player's ability arcing back on itself as they played more. In addition, the learning curve is not a straight slope now. Charlie has said himself that it's painful to watch new players learning the game - and he's right. It does need to be made more intuitive, but not at the cost of skill - this is after all, a game, and games without winners and losers are boring. Skill is what defines those winners and losers. Skill is what makes a game interesting at the end of the day.
As is, NS learning curve is decently straight... THAT'S BAD. You should be able to pick the game up quickly and easily, but learning the advanced concepts and getting the tough stuff down should take a long time.
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This way, it's easy to get into the game, but there's always potential to get better, and better, and better, and a person who's been playing a year won't be 50X better than someone who's been playing NS for a week (this is how it currently is). A straight slope is how it should be, you say? lawl.
Really? So sitting to the right/left on a wall or on a ceiling of a door somehow takes more strategic planning or skill than bunnyhopping into a marine while minimizing exposure to bullets?
I know that when I bunnyhop at marines, I do it as soon as the marine is about to turn the corner to catch him by surprise. (marines expect you to be camping behind the wall and not attacking until looool. Of course I sometimes just bunnyhop down hallways when I'm feeling ballsy/other team has awful aim, but this doesn't have anything to do with devising clever approaches to negate the range disadvantage. (there are only 4 approaches, ambush from up down left and right, don't lie to yourself)
You see I play the 3 dimensional version so I can also attack marines from behind, and from the front if someone's kind enough to bait for me. I also play the continuous version of NS as opposed to the discrete version so I can attack from different angles and not just up, down, left, right. You should try it I think you'd really like it.
Seriously though, I agree that knowing where to ambush from and being able to land bites is more important than being able to bhop. Bhop just helps you execute the above manoeuvres. I don't agree that being able to bhop is a "shortfall" of the players. That's just a ridiculous statement.
Most of the top fraggers have been playing the game for 3-5 years on competetive scene. That big experience gap destroys the balance in almost any fps game. The major problem is that the competetive scene isn't active enough and these players are more or less forced to play on public servers even more than before.
Nevertheless, the learning curve is far from optimal right now.
Unlike a typical RTS where players play alone and basically have no idea what to do and just end up losing over and over until finally they figure it out, an NSPlayer is only a single person on a larger team. This allows the new players to poke around and see how a relatively even game is played. If anything, this causes frustration for the experienced players, not the new ones.
Another key fact is that most people that pub NS are pretty horrible at gaming in general. Thus, if the new player is a competitive person they can quite easily surpass the average pub skill level in a short period of time.
Honestly, I'd say the opposite. In my experience the average NS player is better at gaming than the average TF2 or CS player.
Nevertheless, the learning curve is far from optimal right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but that's the whole point of a curved learning curve, to allow for both veterans to become better than noobs, but to stop the gap from increasing at a steady pace. If I play a game for... 5 months, and I fight someone who's been playing for 5 years. He should be able to kick my ass, no question, but not to the point where he can kill me 100-0 without breaking a sweat. NS as is, that's pretty much possible.
A player should keep getting better, but at a slower rate, so time invested pays off, but doesn't ruin the game. This is the learning curve ALL ONLINE COMPETITIVE GAMES TRY TO ACHIEVE, it's a basic behind game design; easy pick up, long road to mastery. NS has kinda hard pick up, and has a straight constant road to mastery that creates these huge skill gaps.
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I'm of the opinion that we should just say, ###### it. The developers made a good game out of NS1, and I'm sure they'll make as good a game out of NS2.
Unless..? you're not really trying to convince anyone of your argument, but just arguing for the sake of argument?
In that case, that's cool, forget what I said.
I lost most of my faith in game developing somewhere around 2002 <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />. After that the general direction has been more graphics, more unnecessary features, less complex metagame, less learning and far less core gameplay.
UWE has done a great job with NS though. I guess that's why I keep posting even though these forums are a total trollbait.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=Sep 20 2008, 12:16 PM:name=juice)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(juice @ Sep 20 2008, 12:16 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
In addition, gorge is the best class to observe how the overall game plays out, and learn from it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Currently Gorge is the worst class to see what's going on in the game. If she goes out and even manages to find a teammate, supporting a Gorge is quite hard and not really expected by the other players. She basically has to hang around OCs or face certain death. There are many ways to improve this, like making Gorge a better observer, e.g. with controllable missiles that allow the Gorge to see if an area is clear. Or to encourage Gorges to go out with teammates by freeing them up from defense. A current problem is there not being a viable defense for RTs. That is, something other than placing an OC near it that can be taken out by any marine who knows the trick of not letting it shoot you. e.g. with infestation below a RT that does damage to marines on it. Many many possible improvements.
<!--quoteo(post=1688633:date=Sep 22 2008, 07:53 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Sep 22 2008, 07:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1688633"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you would like to spend an egregious amount of your <b>team's</b> resource pool, you should be prepared to make their investment worth its opportunity cost, by being worth your salt.
Also, you've covered more than 100% of the potential players in your argument. Moreover, a concave learning curve would result in the player's ability arcing back on itself as they played more. In addition, the learning curve is not a straight slope now. Charlie has said himself that it's painful to watch new players learning the game - and he's right. It does need to be made more intuitive, but not at the cost of skill - this is after all, a game, and games without winners and losers are boring. Skill is what defines those winners and losers. Skill is what makes a game interesting at the end of the day.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bull###### Radix. Granted, I agree with this sense of 'justice': if you suck you better keep your ###### in the back and support; let the pros take care of business, scrub. It makes sense, I mean, that's how it is in the real world, right? However...
<b>Most players are lazy/casual/untalented</b>
<!--quoteo(post=1688667:date=Sep 23 2008, 08:30 AM:name=NovusAnimus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NovusAnimus @ Sep 23 2008, 08:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1688667"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->SKILL
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Pay attention to this graph!!! Getting kills should be easy initially! But there are some shots that only pros will get!
<!--quoteo(post=1688735:date=Sep 23 2008, 07:22 PM:name=NovusAnimus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NovusAnimus @ Sep 23 2008, 07:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1688735"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, but that's the whole point of a curved learning curve, to allow for both veterans to become better than noobs, but to stop the gap from increasing at a steady pace. If I play a game for... 5 months, and I fight someone who's been playing for 5 years. He should be able to kick my ass, no question,<b> but not to the point where he can kill me 100-0 without breaking a sweat. NS as is, that's pretty much possible.</b>
A player should keep getting better, but at a slower rate, so time invested pays off, but doesn't ruin the game. This is the learning curve ALL ONLINE COMPETITIVE GAMES TRY TO ACHIEVE, it's a basic behind game design; easy pick up, long road to mastery. NS has kinda hard pick up, and has a straight constant road to mastery that creates these huge skill gaps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NovusAnimus hit the nail on the head. If I'm a newb, I know I suck ass, that's expected. Please don't remind me of it. Please don't allow Mr. L33T to utterly dominate me. Let me get <b>LUCKY</b> and kill him before he kills me, at least 10% of the time. Just knowing that I beat Mr. L33T once will keep me playing, because I may get lucky again (or maybe I'm getting better?)!
Remember, the bottom line is whether <b>NS will make money</b>. Money is made from a game being <b>FUN</b>. If I play and I'm constantly reminded that I suck, regardless of whether it's true or not, the game loses this fun.
Think of ways to empower noobs, and ways for them to get lucky! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/asrifle.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::asrifle::" border="0" alt="asrifle.gif" />
did this guy really just ask for rockets crits, or mace-stun in ns2?
no-one likes dying to a crit-rocket or an unlucky mace-stun and it always feels like you've been cheated. Random number generator (computer game luck) deaths are a nightmare in competitive play and piss alot more people off in public than they "empower." The frustration of an unavoidable death far outweighs the satisfaction of "hey look the computer did a lucky roll and killed my opponent for me."
no-one likes dying to a crit-rocket or an unlucky mace-stun and it always feels like you've been cheated. Random number generator (computer game luck) deaths are a nightmare in competitive play and piss alot more people off in public than they "empower." The frustration of an unavoidable death far outweighs the satisfaction of "hey look the computer did a lucky roll and killed my opponent for me."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me elucidate...
We'll use Counterstrike!
I'm a noob, but I can still get kills (sometimes) in this game. Why? Because of this crazy as recoil system and the subsequent headshots! Granted, the better players will own me over and over, but I'll eventually get a kill at SOME point! And those chance moments will keep me playing.
Let's use Halo!
I'm a noob, but I can still get kills if my spawn works out for me and I happen to pick up a rocket! Sure I might kill myself with my opponent, but I still get a kill! Of course, if I get lucky enough with the sniper rifle, and because targets move so slowly, I might even get a headshot!
Let's use Gears of War!
I'm a noob, so I'm going to camp behind some wall so I can ambush someone with a chainsaw. If I do this enough times, and I'm playing in a pub server, I'm guaranteed to get somebody. Or better yet, if I shoot and pray with the shotgun, I might kill a player.
Each of these hardly requires any skill.
Because most people will miss this, I'll bold it:
<b>Do Not Implement A WOW-like calculator in a First-Person Shooter</b>
This is how noobs can be empowered. You don't need headshots or chainsaws.
<!--quoteo(post=1689033:date=Sep 28 2008, 09:51 AM:name=Hozart)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hozart @ Sep 28 2008, 09:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1689033"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let me elucidate...
Let's use <strike>Gears of War</strike> NS!
I'm a noob, so I'm going to camp behind some wall so I can ambush someone with a <strike>chainsaw</strike> skulk. If I do this enough times, and I'm playing in a pub server, I'm guaranteed to get somebody.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Luck is something thats always present in a game were players compete against other players and it cannot be avoided (at least in an FPS game), so why discuss it? You dont really believe that the devs would be as stupid and implement a random number generator that controls major parts in the game? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Luck is something thats always present in a game were players compete against other players and it cannot be avoided (at least in an FPS game), so why discuss it? You dont really believe that the devs would be as stupid and implement a random number generator that controls major parts in the game? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shotgun spread is almost the only random thing I can think of. Getting hit by a para and getting a bite frag are pure mathematics and gameplay factors already. Obiviously unconsistent circumstances like the network performance add some luck factors, but those are included no matter if you like it or not.