Create a product that I can buy.
AGrayOne
Join Date: 2008-08-01 Member: 64742Members
Join Date: 2008-08-01 Member: 64742Members
I hate video game companies, especially small "indie" companies like Unknown Worlds. I hate them because they make a product I want, a product I use several hours a day - video games - but they ###### around, tease, lie, and generally seem like they are run by incompetent morons.
When the Source engine was released and Valve provided Half Life: Source as an example of how easy it is to port mods to Source, I assumed that all my favorite mods NS, Sven, ZP, Science and Industry, etc... would all quickly make the jump to the new engine. I know they all use custom code so I was expecting an effort that would take several months, but as months became years it became apparent that no one was content to just port a game they all wanted to completely remake them. Why?
Natural Selection 2 should of been a straight port of NS to Source with enhanced textures, some new weapons and classes, and gigantic maps. They should of charged $10 for it (think Garry's Mod) and it should of been released a year and a half ago.
Instead they decided to just meander around doing nothing. If Duke Nukem Forever developers had a podcast, I bet it would sound just like the Unknown Worlds developer's podcast.
Here are some of the most recent podcast topics:<ul><li>New office!!!</li><li>Let's talk about a single piece of concept art for 25 minutes.</li><li>Features that are too complicated for us to pull off.</li><li>We visit a submarine for inspiration.</li><li>Engine switch <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> <3 !!!</li></ul>Unknown Worlds: stop adding features, stop talking about your office space, don't switch engines, just port NS to Source.
If you don't release something soon, there won't be an audience to buy your game. There has already been a precipitous drop in NS servers over the last year.
Edit:
I just noticed that I made the title of this post "Create a product the I can buy." I meant "Create a product that I can buy." I am going to get out my dunce cap.
When the Source engine was released and Valve provided Half Life: Source as an example of how easy it is to port mods to Source, I assumed that all my favorite mods NS, Sven, ZP, Science and Industry, etc... would all quickly make the jump to the new engine. I know they all use custom code so I was expecting an effort that would take several months, but as months became years it became apparent that no one was content to just port a game they all wanted to completely remake them. Why?
Natural Selection 2 should of been a straight port of NS to Source with enhanced textures, some new weapons and classes, and gigantic maps. They should of charged $10 for it (think Garry's Mod) and it should of been released a year and a half ago.
Instead they decided to just meander around doing nothing. If Duke Nukem Forever developers had a podcast, I bet it would sound just like the Unknown Worlds developer's podcast.
Here are some of the most recent podcast topics:<ul><li>New office!!!</li><li>Let's talk about a single piece of concept art for 25 minutes.</li><li>Features that are too complicated for us to pull off.</li><li>We visit a submarine for inspiration.</li><li>Engine switch <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> <3 !!!</li></ul>Unknown Worlds: stop adding features, stop talking about your office space, don't switch engines, just port NS to Source.
If you don't release something soon, there won't be an audience to buy your game. There has already been a precipitous drop in NS servers over the last year.
Edit:
I just noticed that I made the title of this post "Create a product the I can buy." I meant "Create a product that I can buy." I am going to get out my dunce cap.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
While there are many inaccuracies in your post, this is the most glaring. NS1's current player numbers in no way reflect the numbers for NS2. A much better predictor is the number of Steam users.
Btw, to sum up this guys post for anyone who thinks it's too long and not worth reading:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am going to get out my dunce cap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On top of that, the source engine & hammer editor are on a level of complexity that requires exponentially more skill and time to manipulate. That is why there really hasn't really been anything all that new or exciting outside of Valve's pet projects: Source modding is just too damn hard. While Valve succeeded in creating an awesomely modifiable engine, they raised the barrier to entry significantly, and that may well be the real reason as to why hardly any mod teams survived the transition.
That being said, while I really don't like the original poster's tone, I do think he has a fair complaint against the state of Source modding. I however place the blame on Valve's shoulders, not on the individual dev teams.
What Valve has said is the absolute TRUETH and in no way shape or form are they stretching it.
HAHHAHAHHAHA
Im such a nerd
the team laid out the issues, described that huge parts of ns were hacks of the goldsource engine, and to port ns to source would require a lot more work than porting something such as halflife. I personally have looked at the source code for halflife 2, and it is quite a huge collection of code, and can be quite difficult to understand at first. the reason it took halflife such a short amount of time to port was because the people porting halflife were already knowledgeable about the sourcecode in the source engine, but more importantly the fact that halflife is a much MUCH simpler game in terms of code than natural selection.
because of these issues the community actually took a vote and voted on NS2, which would be a completely new game, on a new engine. Most people were hoping at the time for the new engine to be Source since it was quite a big deal at the time, but everyone knew regardless of what engine was chosen that this would be no short term endeavor.
Also, on the subject of people claiming that the new engine is a huge setback:
being a software developer myself I know how much easier it is to work with code I have written as opposed to code that someone else has written. In my job I personally have rewritten code that was readily available from someone else, just because I could work faster with my code than with someone elses. This gets more true exponentially with how difficult the code is that is being written.
The source engine is incredibly complex, and to actually create a new game on it would probably require the programmers to spend probably 95% of their time researching how the Source engine's code actually works, and only 5% of the time implementing their own features.
If they were to write their own engine, this would be almost reversed. The downside is that it takes time to write the engine, but once the engine is written their progress increases at the very least 10-fold.
It might be a little longer before we see something like ingame screenshots than if they were using the Source engine, but now that they are making their own engine the finished product will most likely be out a lot sooner.
I really think you could have re-worded that entire post and left it open for discussion. However, you've worded in such a way that it is just flame bait, and you are going to get shot down, being on a Natural Selection 2 forum.
Clearly, he got the technical aspect of this argument down well [/sarcasm]
Ok yes there are less ppl playing NS, however if you release it on steam ppl are going to see it and buy.
saying that no one will buy if it dosen't come out soon, look at my topic about (If ns2 comes out in 2 years will any one play it?) ppl have put there answers and have agreed if the game is good there are going to buy it. You really should have put on a "flame proof vest" on <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
There is no way other way to put it, you are a fool. Do you really think that Unknown Worlds actually tries to go slow and mess with people just because it gives them kicks? Max and Charlie are pretty much rellying on NS2 for their income, they are banking everything on it being a success. There is no logical reason why they would not put close to 100% of their efforts into it to make the best game possible. If it was as easy as <b>YOU</b> think it is to make a completely working balanced bug free game that they could sell, they would have realeased in a hearbeat.
Unfortunantly for us, creating games isnt as easy as porting code. And I think you seem to be forgetting the fact they want to make some massive changes to the gameplay and game mechanics.
If you dont want to wait, go make your own game.
Sums up the thread. As a counterexample to the 'losing interest' point, team fortress 2.
2. Making <u>games</u> is a difficult business. They don't aim to port the HL1 mod to Source, they aim to make a new experience. If it were so easy to 'port code' then why haven't you done it yourself? In fact, how many developers do you see actually wanting to just re-create their game on a different engine? Exactly the same.
I know he posted this and probably left, but the degree of stupidity and thoughtless, ignorant impudence in his post is outright retarded.
I really think you could have re-worded that entire post and left it open for discussion. However, you've worded in such a way that it is just flame bait, and you are going to get shot down, being on a Natural Selection 2 forum.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most of you are right. I haven't personally looked at Source and the closest I have gotten to modding Gldsrc was map making.
I assumed that because Valve said modding was easy and because it is in their best interest to have a thriving mod community - that they would make it easy.
As to me inferring that Charlie, Max and other devs are morons. They're not morons. They just seem to be doing a lot of research and not a lot of development.
About how long the dev cycle is taking: Pogo your mod is free and made by guys doing it for fun. Unknown Worlds is a software company trying to create a product. A company with dedicated full time staff should be able to create a mod much faster than hobbyists.
Garry's mod was developed by one person, Garry Newman, on his own time for fun. It's been in ongoing development for over 3 years, and was free for the first year and a half after its release. This just proves if you make a good product people will buy it, which is why it has been on the Top Sellers list since it has been released. NS was one of the the better mods for HL1, and is still being played 6 years after its first release, which MANY HL1 mods can't say they have done the same. NS2 has a huge fan base, whether the amount of people playing NS now shows it or not. I myself haven't played NS in a couple of years, but I know that I will buy NS2 because I believe Unknown Worlds will be able to create an exceptional game.
And honestly, you have to give Max and Charlie some credit. They started this company from nothing but donations, and I'm sure a huge amount of their own income. Considering the almost monopoly-like producers like EA, they are lucky to even be where they are now. Having a proprietary engine and being a start up company is a huge deal. And the fact that they have one man creating the engine from the ground up is just remarkable.
And if they did just 'port' NS over to the Source engine and call it NS2, well, what's the point? Look at TF2, they rebuilt it from the ground up, and it took them 6 years to do it. Yea, I might not be an active member of this community, but I follow Unknown Worlds progress and I read this forums and this post gave me the urge to say something. That is all. And a ba'day to you.
Honestly sounds like your everyday 12 year old gamer kid. The type that thinks cause he can use a GUI map maker he is the sole authority on game making. Because the internet is a series of tubes made my Al Gore......... Being a networker i have first hand experience with how complex every little simple looking thing in computers is when you get down to the nuts and bolts. Its the same for networking as it is for programming and game making. It may LOOK simple to the untrained eye or LOOK like it takes little amounts of time but when you really get stuck into it the complexity, difficulty and high skill/talent requirements hit you in the face like a sack o bricks. Don't mistake this for flaming cause i really couldn't care all i want to do is tell how freaking hard this stuff is to do and how most people who get the end product (weather its internet access to your favorite site, a program you like or a game you just bought) seem to take this stuff for granite. I truly believe his problem to be entirely pebkac. Have some respect for people.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
see even I(who knows very little about modding and code making) knows that it takes a long time to make something just "WORK", let alone playable.
Funny you should mention them...
When they hired Cagey, both the B.U.S. & his work on a brand new map compiler optimised for NS vanished. Even here, they've left their mark.
yeah he does. i can understand that programming a new stand alone game engine would be quite a set back for those involved in the programming of ns2 but where the hell are the models/maps? how many years has it been? and still, all they do is more concept art, you have enough, start turning these into actual game assets. i can never get back the time i wasted listening to those pod casts but u can at least put the bloody wacom away and show us something new next time.
now, bring on the defensive fanboys.
U NOE NUTHING IT TAEKS SOOO LONG TO CODE
That may be, but where are models and maps, like the above poster said?
Now I may not have followed the development too closely but I remember when NS2 was first announced I was stoked. From then on I have checked every few months or so and I'm continually disappointed with the lack of models, maps and sounds.
I understand that there are only a small amount of developers but after these years you would expect to see at least some stuff that would make it into the game, no matter how pressed for time they are, they still get quite a lot of donations and if they spent half as much time as they did on models then they do on concept art podcasts then I would expect there would be some eye candy to keep people interested.
In short, instead of jumping on original poster's back and blindly insulting him with cries of "you don't know anything, I used to do XXX (where XXX is something barely even REMOTELY related to generic computer stuff), it takes ages", think, what about models and maps? They're pretty quick, and yet there are none.
You see that's the problem, there are so many people that are content to throw money at them and get concept art back every couple weeks.
If that's all the people expect, that's all the developers are gonna give.
Development takes time, sure, but what development? I'm not seeing any.
and wouldn't you say they've had a fair bit of time by now?
sure they don't, but in considering their position in a business sense, they are not doing themselves any favors in letting interest and awareness of their product die down, especially since they now apparently have an office which isn't going to be paying for itself. If i was someone who had donated to the future development of NS then i think i would feel the dev's do owe something a little better than a cool blue icon for all this time.
I'm not posting here demanding they make this game just because i hate the dev team, before you get all defensive in the hope of getting a beta key or a big hug, think about why i would speak out. I post because of how much i enjoyed the original NS and i don't want to see it die. if this dev team is not going to carry on the legacy, if the fans are willing to work harder than the creators, then there is a problem here and the torch should be passed on to someone who is actually motivated to see this thing live.
<!--quoteo(post=1685602:date=Aug 10 2008, 10:01 PM:name=zimzum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(zimzum @ Aug 10 2008, 10:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1685602"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if you're not content to wait...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
last time i checked, waiting 4'ish years for anything is a pretty good effort before i start b####ing.