Large Teams and Res Starvation

DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver Posts: 4,381 Advanced user
The awful pain on big teams
As most might still remember NS is balanced for 7vs7, perhaps 8vs8 players. NOT 12vs12. But sad fact is 12vs12 happens quite often. So I am here typing this now as some sort of damage control. hoping ppl will pay attention.

Why is 12vs12 bad? Because the larger the team the BETTER marines do. However the larger the teams are, the WORSE kharaa do. They get starved of resources and die. First let me explain how this happens.

* large marine teams means they got the players to build AND scout AND go kill RTs within the first minute of the game. This means when a gorge is (done) egging there WILL be atleast 2 marines near him. a fatty will not survive 2 marines.
* Rines will always travel in squads on large teams. due to corridors, concentrated fire (due to the number of rines) a skulk will not get close
* marines res pool is shared thus each RFK goes into the pool, allowed faster ups which benefit THEM ALL.
* Since rines flock out into the map kharaa will have trouble getting RTs up (when most are gorge the RTs/gorges do not get protected and die off) thus at best (At BEST) you will have 4 RTs.

now each RT gives 1 res a tick. 12 ticks per minute means a RT has given 12 res in one minute. So a team of 12 gets ONE RES PER PLAYER per minute on ONE rt. 4 RTs means just 4 RES a player. on JUST RTs this means:

- 7.5 minutes for lerk
- 12.5 minutes for fade (or hive)
- 18,75 minutes for onos

But you WILL NOT have 4 rts in general because your gorges and RTs are getting raped the VERY FIRST MINUTE. Marines can have armor 1 up in under a minute. Kharaa have a problem.

- they either have to build AND protect the RTs thus not having any chambers whatsoever.
- they get chambers and get res starved even faster due to lack of rts. (1 RT for 12 kharaa means 1 res a minute. enjoy getting fade) Also rines WILL have upgrades.
- RFK means nothing unless you are skulk. (fades and lerk will accumilate res but it still takes long before they hit 100 res and it overflows. For a lerk to build a chamber it needs 50 res to be able to build it, then relerk. a Fade needs 70 res. Thats ALOT of res to RFK. They can not only build because you WILL need fades against the rines who are already winning when they spawned in.

Another point is that RFK for marines is great. the only way to have SOME kills as a skulk is to ambush and travel in groups. Marines will start using mines, nades and handnades which are AoE. If you dont travel in groups its even better (for rines). There RFK flow will be godly.


So WHAT can the kharaa do to win this uphill battle?

- do NOT all gorge at once. take turns
- AT ALL COSTS, ALL, protect gorges and RTs in large teams. ALL COSTS. (You can refade if you have 4 Rts+ RFK eventually. You wont ever fade without RTs. Only exception is the first hive. (read FIRST hive) Do this the entire game. I know lateron i say 2nd hive is important. RES IS EVEN MORE. 1 RT = 1 res a minute. Even RFK cant help you then.
- travel in groups (MIND THE NADES) and AMBUSH.
- lerks: gas, gas, gas, gas. Rines are also in groups. gas
- get a 2nd hive FAST. Some say you need a good fade well.. thats fade is not gona make it vs 12 shotguns on a 1 hive system. its a painfull battle but a 2nd hive is your only chance combined with RTs.
- have one skulk on CONTINUES RT killing. If you are res starved, starve the rines aswell. There can not be a single RT up outside there base. NOT ONE.
- when rushing in groups let higher lifeforms DAMAGE, not kill the rines. let skulks kill. SKULKS need res. Higher lifeforms DO NOT. The match is over by the time they max out to 100 res.
- SCOUT. NONSTOP SCOUTING. A large team means they will rush/ninja any hive at any time, aswell as RTs. so scout.
- Last but not least.. MAKE IT FAST. Each minute you are playing is a minute won by rines. They ALL get upgrades, kharaa get individual res, individual lifeforms and are staved in start. BE FAST.

Hope I atleast shed some light on the situation and remember.. If kharaa win they either did all of the above or were fighting a idiot comm/rine team. You will NOT MAKE IT if you play on standard strategy on 12 vs 12.

I rest my case
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Comments

  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Members Posts: 2,774 Advanced user
    The problem is that 12v12 server teams aren't working as a team.

    2-3 lerks, as many nodes as the map allows, some OCs at the most vulnerable nodes, early upgrades, 1 hivebuilder and the rest fading would probably win aliens 80% of the games as long as the lerks don't go down too early.

    Alien must maximise the starting res advantage they've got. Early lerks, upgrades and OCs allow you to rack up rfk and hold nodes and hive locations. That's everything they need 10 mins into the game.

    I've commed a few rounds on Tanith where a few aliens build OCs at chem/acidic and Central Access. It's a huge pain pushing those OCs down with the average 12v12 rines.

    It's not balanced, but there's quite a lot of room for improving before the balance really starts to limit the alien chances of winning.
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver Posts: 4,381 Advanced user
    only reason rushing a OC is cause then the rines suck.

    even a group of 3 will tear a OC apart in mere seconds on no ups at all.
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  • BacsuBacsu Join Date: 2007-02-28 Member: 60148Members Posts: 38 Advanced user
    QUOTE
    I've commed a few rounds on Tanith where a few aliens build OCs at chem/acidic and Central Access. It's a huge pain pushing those OCs down with the average 12v12 rines.

    Order a 3 or 4 cell group with upgraded handnades to get them down? Maybe med your soldiers? Maybe 1 sg and 2 welders to this cell?

    Aliens will loose this res. Its a waste of res in the beginning. drop RTs and scout them. AND HEAL THEM.






  • pSyk0mAnpSyk0mAn Nerdish by Nature Germany Join Date: 2003-08-07 Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 1,714 Advanced user
    edited June 2008
    QUOTE(DC_Darkling @ Jun 29 2008, 11:03 AM) »
    only reason rushing a OC is cause then the rines suck.

    even a group of 3 will tear a OC apart in mere seconds on no ups at all.

    BS!

    With 2 Gorges healing 2 ocs you can block a lot of marines. You just need a good location, decent skulks to pick of the marines and lerks to deal area damage.
    I can only agree with Bacillus about the starting res thingy and if I'm not mistaken I even played in that game on tanith he is talking about on nl-pub server.
    On Tanith, of course, it is a way easier for aliens to seal off certain res towers and hive parts from the marines than on maps like veil/eclipse.
    The only games on this nl pub with players skilled above average, where aliens won a round vs good marines, were decided by early gorges, ocs for key locations and a alien team taking advantage of them. In addition to good lerks and fades of course, which is kinda obvious, but doesn't effect the very early game.

    Most of your hints are a way to much biased to games with very good marines and poor aliens, which unfortunately happens too often on big, stacked publics.
    Especially hints like defending RTs at all costs, thus to die as fade, make me cry.
    If you presume marines to be good you have to do the same for aliens.
    This means at least one good skilled lerk racking up kills and saving for onos with his rfk.
    This means at least one good fade not dieing and thus overflowing his res to teammates.
    Granted, theese two only affects the mid/late-game, but good aliens already make a difference in early game and will need those listed advantages in the lategame, if marines kept up 1-2 phasegates and nearby res towers.
    Biting marine nodes asap with a team of skulks and sporing groups of marines makes the comm cry for res like a baby.


  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver Posts: 4,381 Advanced user
    2 gorges? vs what... 4, 5 rines? (if I want a OC spot I send in more then the standard 2). Aim for the gorges first. Jump. OCs can ony target one and will keep target on a specific target (unless that changed lately).

    I wont disagree OCs might be usefull but early game you simply cant spare the res. especially 12vsv12.
    And you seem to misunderstand a vital part. I say defend RTs at all costs yes. even as a fade yes. Why? because you wont even hit fade it you only have 1 rt to begin with. Sure a very very good skulk will rank up the RFK needed to fade but honestly, such a fade would not die defending RTs in the first place.
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  • FaskaliaFaskalia Wechsellichtzeichenanlage Join Date: 2004-09-12 Member: 31651Members, Constellation Posts: 2,405
    There are two ways to win a 12vs12 as khaara:

    1: rines blow it (which happens quite often, cause good players dont frequent 12vs12 that often, resulting in a good winning chance, if you join the game with 2 buddies)
    2: skulk rush! wait 20s, get 2 gorges, rush MS using a single route! Work once, maybe twice on the same server.
    QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Jul 30 2008, 03:51 PM) »
    The only similarity to Ground Control is that instead of arriving from a building, your dudes arrive from the sky. Why does that merit a meh?
    QUOTE(puzl @ Apr 20 2007, 04:38 PM) »
    You can mince it anyway you like, but if a government can take it a way then it doesn't really matter if it is a right or a privilege, does it?
  • pSyk0mAnpSyk0mAn Nerdish by Nature Germany Join Date: 2003-08-07 Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 1,714 Advanced user
    edited June 2008
    As I said, those 2 gorges + oc need a lerk and decent skulks, which means those 4-5 rines moving through spores and getting hit by ocs loosing their armor, while approaching and jumping above the ocs in order to hit self healing gorges just to get "one-bited" by non-focus skulks, because ocs and spores negate all the dropped medpacks.
    You can't just run through the map against decent aliens, because they know how to ambush in groups, even spitting gorges help.


  • FaskaliaFaskalia Wechsellichtzeichenanlage Join Date: 2004-09-12 Member: 31651Members, Constellation Posts: 2,405
    QUOTE(pSyk0mAn @ Jun 29 2008, 07:22 PM) »
    As I said, those 2 gorges + oc need a lerk and decent skulks, which means those 4-5 rines moving through spores and getting hit by ocs loosing their armor, while approaching and jumping above the ocs in order to hit self healing gorges just to get "one-bited" by non-focus skulks, because ocs and spores negate all the dropped medpacks.
    You can't just run through the map against decent aliens, because they know how to ambush in groups, even spitting gorges help.


    Ok, lets assume rines only manage to cap 2 RTs+MS.
    They still outtech khaara in a 12vs12 on any map.
    All they have to do is avoid dying massively to the same skulk!

    The problem with such large player numbers is that the active side (rines) can suddenly act passive, cause they massively outtech aliens.
    There is no pressure to rush the coming hive @ 3m, cause that hive will come around 7m. Hell, we all know what rines that are allowed to act passive leads to: MASSIVE RAPE.
    QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Jul 30 2008, 03:51 PM) »
    The only similarity to Ground Control is that instead of arriving from a building, your dudes arrive from the sky. Why does that merit a meh?
    QUOTE(puzl @ Apr 20 2007, 04:38 PM) »
    You can mince it anyway you like, but if a government can take it a way then it doesn't really matter if it is a right or a privilege, does it?
  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Members Posts: 2,774 Advanced user
    edited June 2008
    QUOTE(Bacsu @ Jun 29 2008, 04:38 PM) »
    Order a 3 or 4 cell group with upgraded handnades to get them down? Maybe med your soldiers? Maybe 1 sg and 2 welders to this cell?

    Aliens will loose this res. Its a waste of res in the beginning. drop RTs and scout them. AND HEAL THEM.

    Handnades probably work the best on those

    On the other moves you suggested

    1.) the rines won't move in in the groups of 4. 2 will chicken out and the remaining 2 won't hit skulks that are hiding near the OCs.
    2.) Sure I med them. Too bad they can't kill the skulks while being distracted by the OCs and the gorge.
    3.) I'd be amazed if I had a sg going to the waypoint. Even if he does that, he'll just miss the skulk because he's distracted by the OC. I would need a couple of shotgunners and 10 meds to get past that. Too bad that's 40 res and 2 minutes of time to get people there.

    Shouting on your microphone might help a lot on those. I'll try that sometime in the future.

    Maybe I've ended up playing on a bad time, but those 12 v 12 meat grinders demonstrate teamwork and decisive action quite rarely.

    QUOTE
    I wont disagree OCs might be usefull but early game you simply cant spare the res. especially 12vsv12.
    And you seem to misunderstand a vital part. I say defend RTs at all costs yes. even as a fade yes. Why? because you wont even hit fade it you only have 1 rt to begin with. Sure a very very good skulk will rank up the RFK needed to fade but honestly, such a fade would not die defending RTs in the first place.


    On the beginning aliens need to use the res. 5 guys at 45 res will do little good once the marines have got their game rolling. Of course in the perfect world everyone would scout and counter perfectly, but that's not the case. Delaying and making use of the starting res is the next best thing at that point. Most 12v12 are almost lost at the point when you get the fades up. No way you can push the 12 rines back once they've got the map and the nodes.

    What do you mean by saying that the aliens can't afford them on 12 v 12? The whole idea is that aliens have 12*25 res to start with. That's easily:

    1x RT MC, 1x 2 MC, 2-3x RT, 1x Hive, 2x Fade, 2x lerk, 2-3x 2 oc.

    Of course someone will save for onos and ect, since the team never plays that organized, but I think you can safely cap 4 nodes or something. After a while those 4x RTs can drop more OCs and so on.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver Posts: 4,381 Advanced user
    Well I completely agree on the part that time is of the utmost essence
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    Old/resigned Dutch Translation Lead. Give feedback about the translation, or help improve by clicking: Current NS2 Dutch translation project. Dutch players apply!
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