<!--quoteo(post=1678247:date=May 10 2008, 05:50 AM:name=Lt_Hendrickson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lt_Hendrickson @ May 10 2008, 05:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678247"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All scripts do if seperate casual gamers from hardcore gamers who sit on forums all day learning how to tweak settings and every little exploit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You are clueless.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Simply put, NO PLAYER good or bad should have to have any knowlege of gaming outside of the game they are playing such as scripting and exploits to compete.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What you mentioned is not "outside of the game knowledge". I'm pretty sure that you have to play the game in order to learn to bunnyhop, which is a learned skill - much like pointing your mouse at an object.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Players shouldnt gain a speed advantage just because they know how to exploit an engine better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This =
Players shouldn't gain a damage advantage just because they know how to "exploit" an engine better.
Only when you define exploit will you be able to note a difference between bunnyhopping and any other skill.
Arguing with somone who refuses to acknoledge bhopping is an unintended engine exploit is like arguing with withsome who insists the sky isn't blue.
Where in the game is it made clearly stated or viewed that you can gain double speed by strafe jumping back and forth to use the hidden engine use of air acceleration in a jumping pattern that negates deceleration to gain abnormal speeds and unatural movment? Aiming and shooting is obvious. Knowing about acceleration speeds and how to avoid deceleration is not.
Yes it takes skill to perform, but no matter how you look at it, it is an exploit and requires inside knowledge to perform.
<a href="http://youtube.com/watch?v=cSpi3DnQctI" target="_blank">http://youtube.com/watch?v=cSpi3DnQctI</a> Do honestly believe this is intende gameplay a new person would know how to do?
"In the realm of online games, an exploit is usually a software bug, hack or bot that contributes to the user's prosperity in a manner not intended by the developers."
"I'm pretty sure that you have to play the game in order to learn to bunnyhop, which is a learned skill" No you don't. All you have to do is play any quake engine based game and know about the the air acceleration flaw which is not common knowledge or intended knowledge, nor an easily observable movment for a new player.
<!--quoteo(post=1678331:date=May 10 2008, 07:09 PM:name=Lt_Hendrickson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lt_Hendrickson @ May 10 2008, 07:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678331"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Arguing with somone who refuses to acknoledge bhopping is an unintended engine exploit is like arguing with withsome who insists the sky isn't blue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then again arguing with someone who doesnt realize that the developers intentionally kept BH as part of the game and was balanced with it.....well you get the point
<!--quoteo(post=1678431:date=May 12 2008, 06:50 AM:name=Emanon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Emanon @ May 12 2008, 06:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678431"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then again arguing with someone who doesnt realize that the developers intentionally kept BH as part of the game and was balanced with it.....well you get the point<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Knowing that they did remove bunny hopping for marines and the only reason they didn't for aliens was because the solution crippled their movment but they still capped air speed at 120%(?), a minimum working value...well you get the point.
<!--quoteo(post=1678331:date=May 10 2008, 07:09 PM:name=Lt_Hendrickson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lt_Hendrickson @ May 10 2008, 07:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678331"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Arguing with somone who refuses to acknoledge bhopping is an unintended engine exploit is like arguing with withsome who insists the sky isn't blue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1678489:date=May 12 2008, 04:58 PM:name=Lt_Hendrickson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lt_Hendrickson @ May 12 2008, 04:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678489"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Knowing that they did remove bunny hopping for marines and the only reason they didn't for aliens was because the solution crippled their movment but they still capped air speed at 120%(?), a minimum working value...well you get the point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1679565:date=May 27 2008, 12:31 PM:name=GaussWaffle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GaussWaffle @ May 27 2008, 12:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679565"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->does anyone happen to know what the hack is called when a marine can shoot down an onos in about 15-20 shots? (the 200 dmg bullet one)
unfortunately i experienced this whilst playing a good game of ns_lucid, and it put a real damper on the game as a whole<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Never heard of it. I'm pretty sure weapon damages are set server side so I don't know how this would happen unless the person is a server admin. It could be a speed hack where he fired a lot more bullets than you thought.
How did this topic get sidetracked into bhop and then cheating? This is about scripts. If you want to discuss bhop being an exploit or not start a different thread. Although honestly you don't need to do that either since there have been a million of threads about that.
Bhop is an engine exploit in most HL1 games and has been removed, but in NS1 it's a skill move. To call it an exploit in NS1 is like calling rocket/grenade jumping in TF exploiting.
Whatever your opinion on bhop I think this is still true: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All scripts do if seperate casual gamers from hardcore gamers who sit on forums all day learning how to tweak settings<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1679570:date=May 27 2008, 10:24 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ May 27 2008, 10:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679570"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Never heard of it. I'm pretty sure weapon damages are set server side so I don't know how this would happen unless the person is a server admin. It could be a speed hack where he fired a lot more bullets than you thought.
How did this topic get sidetracked into bhop and then cheating? This is about scripts. If you want to discuss bhop being an exploit or not start a different thread. Although honestly you don't need to do that either since there have been a million of threads about that.
Bhop is an engine exploit in most HL1 games and has been removed, but in NS1 it's a skill move. To call it an exploit in NS1 is like calling rocket/grenade jumping in TF exploiting.
Whatever your opinion on bhop I think this is still true:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dunno how it got off topic...but really isn't this a "defeating hackers w/o hacks" thread?
anyhow, you're right, it was a speed hack because he was moving uncommonly fast and laggy-like, very frustrating when you're in the thick of a good game as a fade or onos
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Scripts are no magic pill to make a bad player into a good one. There are simply better players out there that are able to aim/strategise/steal cookies better then other players... Accepting it is step one, getting your own skills up to par is a second step...
<!--quoteo(post=1679570:date=May 27 2008, 12:24 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ May 27 2008, 12:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679570"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How did this topic get sidetracked into bhop and then cheating? This is about scripts. If you want to discuss bhop being an exploit or not start a different thread. Although honestly you don't need to do that either since there have been a million of threads about that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Granted for BH as the dev let it like that and balanced the game upon it for Kharras. In the mean time there is no IN-game tutorial about Buny hoping. So unless someone tells you... It's a long way to go.
Cheat and exploits are a part of this topic. Just browse the table i put which is non-exhaustive. The question isn't how we define cheat or exploits precisely. But what will be implemented to get rid of it. Will it be efficient <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
As you know, the success of this kind of game will rely on the community and probably on the competition that can be organized (competition means showcase) around it. Especially because NS won't have a singleplayer part.
One of the cometition big problems is cheat/exploit etc... If there is a doubt about players in a competition, <b>it's gonna die one way or another and so the game with it. </b>
The question is still adressed to the dev. I don't want details about the game itself (no spoiler). But is this kind of issue will be adressed (client side check etc...) ?
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1681294:date=Jun 17 2008, 05:07 AM:name=UncleCrunch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(UncleCrunch @ Jun 17 2008, 05:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1681294"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cheat and exploits are a part of this topic. Just browse the table i put which is non-exhaustive. The question isn't how we define cheat or exploits precisely. But what will be implemented to get rid of it. Will it be efficient <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Mea culpa; I forgot what the heck this topic was about. <!--quoteo(post=1681294:date=Jun 17 2008, 05:07 AM:name=UncleCrunch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(UncleCrunch @ Jun 17 2008, 05:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1681294"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One of the competition big problems is cheat/exploit etc... If there is a doubt about players in a competition, <b>it's gonna die one way or another and so the game with it. </b> The question is still adressed to the dev. I don't want details about the game itself (no spoiler). But is this kind of issue will be addressed (client side check etc...) ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know if devs are planning to implement client side checks, but honestly I hope not. Any type of arms race in that area seems like a waste of effort since it would be duplicating Valve's work. I'm pretty sure the dev's said NS2 is going to use VAC(Valve Anti-Cheat).
I think scripting of any sort should be like driving an automatic vehicle. It allows for smoother driving, but once you reach a certain point in skill it actually becomes limiting, and you'll be able to drive better and have more control if you go manual/stick.
<!--quoteo(post=1681625:date=Jun 20 2008, 12:22 PM:name=NovusAnimus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NovusAnimus @ Jun 20 2008, 12:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1681625"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think scripting of any sort should be like driving an automatic vehicle. It allows for smoother driving, but once you reach a certain point in skill it actually becomes limiting, and you'll be able to drive better and have more control if you go manual/stick.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
You are clueless.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Simply put, NO PLAYER good or bad should have to have any knowlege of gaming outside of the game they are playing such as scripting and exploits to compete.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What you mentioned is not "outside of the game knowledge". I'm pretty sure that you have to play the game in order to learn to bunnyhop, which is a learned skill - much like pointing your mouse at an object.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Players shouldnt gain a speed advantage just because they know how to exploit an engine better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This =
Players shouldn't gain a damage advantage just because they know how to "exploit" an engine better.
Only when you define exploit will you be able to note a difference between bunnyhopping and any other skill.
Where in the game is it made clearly stated or viewed that you can gain double speed by strafe jumping back and forth to use the hidden engine use of air acceleration in a jumping pattern that negates deceleration to gain abnormal speeds and unatural movment? Aiming and shooting is obvious. Knowing about acceleration speeds and how to avoid deceleration is not.
Yes it takes skill to perform, but no matter how you look at it, it is an exploit and requires inside knowledge to perform.
<a href="http://youtube.com/watch?v=cSpi3DnQctI" target="_blank">http://youtube.com/watch?v=cSpi3DnQctI</a>
Do honestly believe this is intende gameplay a new person would know how to do?
"In the realm of online games, an exploit is usually a software bug, hack or bot that contributes to the user's prosperity in a manner not intended by the developers."
"I'm pretty sure that you have to play the game in order to learn to bunnyhop, which is a learned skill"
No you don't. All you have to do is play any quake engine based game and know about the the air acceleration flaw which is not common knowledge or intended knowledge, nor an easily observable movment for a new player.
Then again arguing with someone who doesnt realize that the developers intentionally kept BH as part of the game and was balanced with it.....well you get the point
Knowing that they did remove bunny hopping for marines and the only reason they didn't for aliens was because the solution crippled their movment but they still capped air speed at 120%(?), a minimum working value...well you get the point.
<!--quoteo(post=1678489:date=May 12 2008, 04:58 PM:name=Lt_Hendrickson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lt_Hendrickson @ May 12 2008, 04:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678489"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Knowing that they did remove bunny hopping for marines and the only reason they didn't for aliens was because the solution crippled their movment but they still capped air speed at 120%(?), a minimum working value...well you get the point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
??
They left it in for people to use it, not to make excuses behind it.
unfortunately i experienced this whilst playing a good game of ns_lucid, and it put a real damper on the game as a whole
unfortunately i experienced this whilst playing a good game of ns_lucid, and it put a real damper on the game as a whole<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Never heard of it. I'm pretty sure weapon damages are set server side so I don't know how this would happen unless the person is a server admin. It could be a speed hack where he fired a lot more bullets than you thought.
How did this topic get sidetracked into bhop and then cheating? This is about scripts. If you want to discuss bhop being an exploit or not start a different thread. Although honestly you don't need to do that either since there have been a million of threads about that.
Bhop is an engine exploit in most HL1 games and has been removed, but in NS1 it's a skill move. To call it an exploit in NS1 is like calling rocket/grenade jumping in TF exploiting.
Whatever your opinion on bhop I think this is still true:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All scripts do if seperate casual gamers from hardcore gamers who sit on forums all day learning how to tweak settings<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How did this topic get sidetracked into bhop and then cheating? This is about scripts. If you want to discuss bhop being an exploit or not start a different thread. Although honestly you don't need to do that either since there have been a million of threads about that.
Bhop is an engine exploit in most HL1 games and has been removed, but in NS1 it's a skill move. To call it an exploit in NS1 is like calling rocket/grenade jumping in TF exploiting.
Whatever your opinion on bhop I think this is still true:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dunno how it got off topic...but really isn't this a "defeating hackers w/o hacks" thread?
anyhow, you're right, it was a speed hack because he was moving uncommonly fast and laggy-like, very frustrating when you're in the thick of a good game as a fade or onos
Granted for BH as the dev let it like that and balanced the game upon it for Kharras. In the mean time there is no IN-game tutorial about Buny hoping. So unless someone tells you... It's a long way to go.
Cheat and exploits are a part of this topic. Just browse the table i put which is non-exhaustive. The question isn't how we define cheat or exploits precisely. But what will be implemented to get rid of it. Will it be efficient <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
As you know, the success of this kind of game will rely on the community and probably on the competition that can be organized (competition means showcase) around it. Especially because NS won't have a singleplayer part.
One of the cometition big problems is cheat/exploit etc... If there is a doubt about players in a competition, <b>it's gonna die one way or another and so the game with it. </b>
The question is still adressed to the dev.
I don't want details about the game itself (no spoiler). But is this kind of issue will be adressed (client side check etc...) ?
Pretty please.
Mea culpa; I forgot what the heck this topic was about.
<!--quoteo(post=1681294:date=Jun 17 2008, 05:07 AM:name=UncleCrunch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(UncleCrunch @ Jun 17 2008, 05:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1681294"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One of the competition big problems is cheat/exploit etc... If there is a doubt about players in a competition, <b>it's gonna die one way or another and so the game with it. </b>
The question is still adressed to the dev.
I don't want details about the game itself (no spoiler). But is this kind of issue will be addressed (client side check etc...) ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know if devs are planning to implement client side checks, but honestly I hope not. Any type of arms race in that area seems like a waste of effort since it would be duplicating Valve's work. I'm pretty sure the dev's said NS2 is going to use VAC(Valve Anti-Cheat).
Whatch this : <a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/cluster/videogames/featured/video/x5qppi_halflife-speedrun_videogames" target="_blank">Speedrun</a>
Flying with a nooddle box (or any other object) may be an issue in NS2 as it is based on HL²... ...
It's one of the examples i believe to be imoprtant.
Great analogy. Give this person a cookie.