But the lock down feature could get abused easily couldn't it? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1676431:date=Apr 21 2008, 01:51 PM:name=Sarisel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sarisel @ Apr 21 2008, 01:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676431"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The point about the resources has to do with locallyunscene's powerbar suggestion of implementing powerbars on armories - the idea doesn't prevent armory humping and has the potential of causing problems with resource consumption from armory humping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Apparently what I was saying about the powerbar wasn't clear. Marines don't "regenerate" ammo I don't think anyone has suggested that yet, <b>Scribbles</b> mentioned regen in the form TF2 has, where you don't have to hit use on the armory just stand near it.
The implementation I'm trying to get across is marines getting ammo from the armory has <u>NO</u> effect on the powerbar, that part works the same. The powerbar is only for dropping ammopacks. The ammopacks dropped while the powerpar has enough energy are free. Instead of preventing players from humping the armory I'm taking the route of encouranging commanders to drop more ammopacks, thus eliminating the root cause of humping. If the marines think they can rely on their comm for ammo they won't bother with the armory.
<!--quoteo(post=1676433:date=Apr 21 2008, 02:12 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Apr 21 2008, 02:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676433"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Apparently what I was saying about the powerbar wasn't clear. Marines don't "regenerate" ammo I don't think anyone has suggested that yet, <b>Scribbles</b> mentioned regen in the form TF2 has, where you don't have to hit use on the armory just stand near it.
The implementation I'm trying to get across is marines getting ammo from the armory has <u>NO</u> effect on the powerbar, that part works the same. The powerbar is only for dropping ammopacks. The ammopacks dropped while the powerpar has enough energy are free. Instead of preventing players from humping the armory I'm taking the route of encouranging commanders to drop more ammopacks, thus eliminating the root cause of humping. If the marines think they can rely on their comm for ammo they won't bother with the armory.
Is that clearer?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ah yes it is. Thanks. And yes I know you weren't suggesting ammo regen Sarisel, I just wanted to make it publicly clear to everyone here that idea is scrubbed before is even suggested outright.
This is turning into a good discussion; thanks & keep it up! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
edited April 2008
<!--quoteo(post=1676432:date=Apr 21 2008, 01:54 PM:name=the_x5)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the_x5 @ Apr 21 2008, 01:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676432"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But the lock down feature could get abused easily couldn't it? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It could be - but that's why there's an eject option, right? This is an off-topic note: it would help if the eject-vote initiator got to type a reason for why the vote is being called.
<!--quoteo(post=1676433:date=Apr 21 2008, 02:12 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Apr 21 2008, 02:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676433"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The implementation I'm trying to get across is marines getting ammo from the armory has <u>NO</u> effect on the powerbar, that part works the same. The powerbar is only for dropping ammopacks. The ammopacks dropped while the powerpar has enough energy are free. Instead of preventing players from humping the armory I'm taking the route of encouranging commanders to drop more ammopacks, thus eliminating the root cause of humping. If the marines think they can rely on their comm for ammo they won't bother with the armory.
Is that clearer?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Clearer doesn't cut it - it sounds like a completely different idea altogether that I wouldn't have been arguing against.
Edit: regenerating ammo was suggested by invader Zim, hence my response to it
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1676453:date=Apr 21 2008, 04:28 PM:name=Sarisel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sarisel @ Apr 21 2008, 04:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676453"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It could be - but that's why there's an eject option, right? This is an off-topic note: it would help if the eject-vote initiator got to type a reason for why the vote is being called. Clearer doesn't cut it - it sounds like a completely different idea altogether that I wouldn't have been arguing against.
Edit: regenerating ammo was suggested by invader Zim, hence my response to it<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> HAHA, if you want you can go back and read my orig post with that new understanding, I haven't edited it. Your criticisms make a lot more sense now.
<!--quoteo(post=1676372:date=Apr 21 2008, 07:29 AM:name=GaussWaffle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GaussWaffle @ Apr 21 2008, 07:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676372"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->keep the ammo dispensing armory function in, but make it so that a player receives full ammo at the cost of 1 res (the PLAYERS choice)
My idea is this, all players "spawn" with the obligatory 3 clips (1 loaded, 2 reserved)
as an upgrade at the armory for the commander to determine to do, he can choose to UPGRADE a players spawning ammo reservoir. Lets say 10 res to spawn with 25 more bullets every upgrade
therefore you can upgrade theoretically (assuming the amount of ammo from NS1 carries over into NS2) 6 times so that every player spawns with full ammo, that way players have no need for armory humping unless they run out and manage to find themselves back at base. Bam, spend 1 res and you have 250 more bullets available.
comms would still be able to drop ammo packs as needed<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->This brings up a few bad scenarios.
When you are being attacked in your spawn and your Comm is desperately trying to save for a beacon, just one or two guys resupplying from zero (costing 1-2 res) can delay this and potentially lose the game because an important structure goes down.
---
But my main gripe with this is that experienced Commanders just won't get these upgrades, they will use the resources on more important things and spend resources on players who won't waste the ammo. The only way this ammo upgrade would work is if Comm ammo-drops were removed from the game (which is something I'd love to see, incidentally).
It's been said before, but really the absolute best way to solve this problem is not with convoluted upgrade systems, or power bars, but with player healing and resupply items that, if dropped, can be picked up by anyone else and be administered to anyone by anyone. This would remove all of the unneccessary twitch medpacking that makes learning the Commander so hard to begin with, and allow the Comm to focus on commanding instead of babysitting.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1676531:date=Apr 22 2008, 05:49 AM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Apr 22 2008, 05:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676531"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But my main gripe with this is that experienced Commanders just won't get these upgrades, they will use the resources on more important things and spend resources on players who won't waste the ammo. The only way this ammo upgrade would work is if Comm ammo-drops were removed from the game (which is something I'd love to see, incidentally).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think if ammo packs were removed we'd have a lot of frustrated players without ammo. Especially at hives far away from base. <!--quoteo(post=1676531:date=Apr 22 2008, 05:49 AM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Apr 22 2008, 05:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676531"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's been said before, but really the absolute best way to solve this problem is not with convoluted upgrade systems, or power bars, but with player healing and resupply items that, if dropped, can be picked up by anyone else and be administered to anyone by anyone. This would remove all of the unneccessary twitch medpacking that makes learning the Commander so hard to begin with, and allow the Comm to focus on commanding instead of babysitting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The simplest, and possibly best, way to solve this problem is to have marines spawn with full ammo. That addresses the problem directly. The reason I suggested an ammopack(and that is "ammopack" which is dropped by the commander, as distinguished from simply "ammo" which you get from the armory) powerbar was to take the fix beyond the purview of only armory humping.
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
How many people do this right? In my experience, too many people do everything wrong. Might as well give players a hand so that they can be a little bit less annoying.
<!--quoteo(post=1676538:date=Apr 22 2008, 09:28 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Apr 22 2008, 09:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676538"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think if ammo packs were removed we'd have a lot of frustrated players without ammo. Especially at hives far away from base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Indeed.
<!--quoteo(post=1676538:date=Apr 22 2008, 09:28 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Apr 22 2008, 09:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676538"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The simplest, and possibly best, way to solve this problem is to have marines spawn with full ammo. That addresses the problem directly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> --and creates a new one, no? As I tried explaining earlier in this thread (previous page at bottom), since the marines fire ranged weapons with finite quantities of ammunition, it means they are carrying more damage. Could this be balanced? If you gave structures and players armor classes with different values for damage reduction (i.e.: Warcraft III and Starcraft II for example, some armor is better at resisting one type of damage but have vulnerabilities to other type)
<!--quoteo(post=1676557:date=Apr 22 2008, 02:56 PM:name=Sarisel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sarisel @ Apr 22 2008, 02:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676557"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How many people do this right? In my experience, too many people do everything wrong. Might as well give players a hand so that they can be a little bit less annoying.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly! Well said Sarisel.
Why not give the commander the ability to De-activate an armory, and when players try to engage the armory it will replay the commander's message, "There is no time, move to your waypoint soldier".
Then there would be no armory humping when the commander didn't want it.
If the armory is shutdown, there could be a "warmup" process before it's turned on again. this is to prevent flicking the armory on/off.
I didnt read all the posts but couldnt you give the commander the ability to shutdown the armory during a hive rush? This would also give the players another reason to critique commanding skills and be a cause havoc. Which in my opinion is the greatest attribute of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1679104:date=May 21 2008, 07:39 PM:name=TheGivingTree)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TheGivingTree @ May 21 2008, 07:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679104"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's extremely simple, just double the amount of ammo it gives now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea, it seems simply.. but when I think about it more.. I come to this conclusion..
If marines were able to get ammo faster, by average..they'd live longer because of the extra ammunition. Giving the marines a huge advtange early in the game..
I think for NS 2 the team should find a sweet spot for how fast/much ammo the armory gives out, then give the comm the ability to shut down the armory to keep the balance..
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why not give the commander the ability to De-activate an armory, and when players try to engage the armory it will replay the commander's message, "There is no time, move to your waypoint soldier".
Then there would be no armory humping when the commander didn't want it.
If the armory is shutdown, there could be a "warmup" process before it's turned on again. this is to prevent flicking the armory on/off.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1679164:date=May 22 2008, 08:01 AM:name=jjr.heartfelt@hotmail.com)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jjr.heartfelt@hotmail.com @ May 22 2008, 08:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679164"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yea, it seems simply.. but when I think about it more.. I come to this conclusion.. If marines were able to get ammo faster, by average..they'd live longer because of the extra ammunition. Giving the marines a huge advtange early in the game..
I think for NS 2 the team should find a sweet spot for how fast/much ammo the armory gives out, then give the comm the ability to shut down the armory to keep the balance..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't necessarily think it will make marines live longer, if I want full ammo reserve clips then I will wait until it's full, be it if that takes 10 seconds or 5. If anything it wouldn't make them live longer but be able to leave the base faster which, in comparison to the huge speed advantage aliens have already wouldn't make all to much of a difference. And there has been plenty of times when I had full ammo and got killed relatively fast so all that extra ammo didn't help me live longer at all, if anything just had me waste more time getting all of it.
<!--quoteo(post=1679164:date=May 22 2008, 01:01 PM:name=jjr.heartfelt@hotmail.com)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jjr.heartfelt@hotmail.com @ May 22 2008, 01:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679164"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yea, it seems simply.. but when I think about it more.. I come to this conclusion.. If marines were able to get ammo faster, by average..they'd live longer because of the extra ammunition. Giving the marines a huge advtange early in the game..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is just dishonest.
If you take a look at competitive play, you'll realize that an extra second or two will let you get the jump on an alien and COMPLETELY change the course of the game. (If pressure team dies before killing a node, they can just disconnect) Also, take into consideration the time it takes to get the armory up. Out of the 5 marines on the ground, what usually happens is that the 2 on the capping team and the shotgunner build it while the pressure runs ahead to cap the first node. Also, ammo slows you down considerably and at the level when even a 1% increase in efficiency can win you the game, that counts.
Most posts are addressing the specific mechanics of getting ammo from the armory. However, the problem is not with the armory. The problem is with the players. Or is it?
Who humps the armory? Players who have not yet grasped the urgency of the game. In many other games you "load up" so you don't run out of ammo. They think time is not an issue, and ammo is free, so why not? But the solution is not in making it cost something, in time, ammo, or commander intervention. The solution is to help players realize that this game is about efficient teamwork, and the quicker you get out there in the field to fight with your teammates the better your chances of winning.
What about some type of audio reinforcement? I think the TF2 Heavy auto-say "I LOVE this Medic!" is genius. If a player is armory humping and there's another player nearby, there could be an auto-say like "Stop gettin ammo and shoot some aliens, son!" "Ammo won't help you in an onos' belly" etc. Of course this could be implemented throughout the game in other situations like with welding, etc.
If you just solve armory humping, you're not addressing the underlying issue: educating new players about how to play. You could fix armory humping and they would still be just as likely to run off into some random corner to camp or hang around base to guard it and wait for 'turrents'.
How about removing the free ammo purchase from the armory and have a limited number of automated free resupplies at each waypoint? Would this not discourage idling around the armory and encorage players to get moving and follow the commanders directions?
The only abuse I can see is a commander setting a series of close wayoints to get his team loaded up with ammo for free. I'm sure UWE could build the system to cope with that.
<!--quoteo(post=1679354:date=May 24 2008, 09:57 AM:name=ChromeAngel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ChromeAngel @ May 24 2008, 09:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679354"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about removing the free ammo purchase from the armory and have a limited number of automated free resupplies at each waypoint? Would this not discourage idling around the armory and encorage players to get moving and follow the commanders directions?
The only abuse I can see is a commander setting a series of close wayoints to get his team loaded up with ammo for free. I'm sure UWE could build the system to cope with that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've never liked the idea of using baits to get the marine to the waypoint. Obiviously it would be necessary nowadays, but hopefully ns 2 will be somewhat more newbie friendly. If they understood the game better they actually might stop humping the armory and start going to waypoints.
I really wasn't thinking of it as bait, more like supporting teamwork on the ground, which the commander should be doing anyway.
It's not like a huge bribe (suh as a bigger gun), to get the player to go out of their way and do something un-FPS like, such as "building" or using a menu.
Speaking of newbie friendliness you'd have to educate new players that waypoints=ammo, but that could be established in the same tutorial that introduces waypoints. I don't think any tutotials needs to cover the FPS basics (moving, crouching, jumping, shooting), but their should definitely be tutotials for NS unique features, such as command, teamwork and construction.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1679032:date=May 20 2008, 02:26 PM:name=the_x5)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the_x5 @ May 20 2008, 02:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679032"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Indeed. --and creates a new one, no? As I tried explaining earlier in this thread (previous page at bottom), since the marines fire ranged weapons with finite quantities of ammunition, it means they are carrying more damage. Could this be balanced? If you gave structures and players armor classes with different values for damage reduction (i.e.: Warcraft III and Starcraft II for example, some armor is better at resisting one type of damage but have vulnerabilities to other type)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think it could be balanced without resistances. I say it might be the best because it's the simplest, but I still prefer my original solution(of course). <!--quoteo(post=1676063:date=Apr 17 2008, 12:18 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Apr 17 2008, 12:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676063"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Right now using the armory is a tradeoff. Time invested vs. time spent. You'll want an extra pack if you're traveling far or might run in into an OC.
Even though this is solely a pub problem maybe the answer can add depth to the game.
The armory should have a "power bar" like the obs. The ammo packs dropped while the bar has enough energy are free. - commanders will be persuaded to drop more ammo packs, since they're "free" - good commanders can manage their resflow better - multiple amories, encouraging decoys, maybe opening up armories to have specific paths, ie one path for flamethrower, another for heavy weapons - marines don't worry about ammo so much because comms drop it and won't feel the need to hump<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Since there was some confusion earlier I just want to make sure that everyone knows when I say ammopack I specifically mean the ammopack that commanders drop, and not ammo that is received from the armory. The ammopack bar wouldn't have to be on the armory I just think that's the most logical place.
I'm a fan of players spawning with full ammo. If they run out, they can 'use' the armory and they're instantly refilled. Armory Humping was a good thing for Aliens due to the easiness of rampaging through the marine base and killing their entire team before anyone could get a shot off. However, I've always found it broke the gameplay up a little bit. If players got full ammo and their clips were instantly filled once they 'use' the armory, it would keep the game going for the players without slowing things down very much. An example of where this system works well is CS where players have to initially buy more primary ammo if they want to stay in the fight long enough.
If players get full ammo from barely using the armory, then people are just going to switch from humping it to camping it. It just trades one problem for another.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=104124&view=findpost&p=1679307" target="_blank">I thought Juice made a good point.</a>
To expand on Juice's idea, what if the armory had a viewscreen on it, showing the minimap with all the death/needs of the team. That would make it impossible to ignore for most people.
<!--quoteo(post=1679632:date=May 28 2008, 09:11 AM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ May 28 2008, 09:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679632"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To expand on Juice's idea, what if the armory had a viewscreen on it, showing the minimap with all the death/needs of the team. That would make it impossible to ignore for most people.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Could you either sketch that or elaborate? I'm not sure what you had in mind.
Since it looks very likely that in NS2 marines will be making purchases with personal resources.......
1. Make the ammount of ammo you get from the armory double what it currently is. 2. Make it so the marine has to spend his personal credits/resources on armory ammo. 1 res per armory use.
If every marine starts with 0 personal resources, armory humping will not be possible when a game first starts.
-This will teach marines to think about when they should buy more ammo to take with them. -This will teach marines to save personal resources for something better like weapons/upgrades.
Armory humpers will learn very quickly when there is a personal cost involved. Especially if there is an armory menu that shows the price of shottys, hmg's and other goodies they can buy when they save up their personal res.
Comments
Apparently what I was saying about the powerbar wasn't clear. Marines don't "regenerate" ammo I don't think anyone has suggested that yet, <b>Scribbles</b> mentioned regen in the form TF2 has, where you don't have to hit use on the armory just stand near it.
The implementation I'm trying to get across is marines getting ammo from the armory has <u>NO</u> effect on the powerbar, that part works the same. The powerbar is only for dropping ammopacks. The ammopacks dropped while the powerpar has enough energy are free. Instead of preventing players from humping the armory I'm taking the route of encouranging commanders to drop more ammopacks, thus eliminating the root cause of humping. If the marines think they can rely on their comm for ammo they won't bother with the armory.
Is that clearer?
The implementation I'm trying to get across is marines getting ammo from the armory has <u>NO</u> effect on the powerbar, that part works the same. The powerbar is only for dropping ammopacks. The ammopacks dropped while the powerpar has enough energy are free. Instead of preventing players from humping the armory I'm taking the route of encouranging commanders to drop more ammopacks, thus eliminating the root cause of humping. If the marines think they can rely on their comm for ammo they won't bother with the armory.
Is that clearer?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah yes it is. Thanks. And yes I know you weren't suggesting ammo regen Sarisel, I just wanted to make it publicly clear to everyone here that idea is scrubbed before is even suggested outright.
This is turning into a good discussion; thanks & keep it up! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
It could be - but that's why there's an eject option, right? This is an off-topic note: it would help if the eject-vote initiator got to type a reason for why the vote is being called.
<!--quoteo(post=1676433:date=Apr 21 2008, 02:12 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Apr 21 2008, 02:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676433"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The implementation I'm trying to get across is marines getting ammo from the armory has <u>NO</u> effect on the powerbar, that part works the same. The powerbar is only for dropping ammopacks. The ammopacks dropped while the powerpar has enough energy are free. Instead of preventing players from humping the armory I'm taking the route of encouranging commanders to drop more ammopacks, thus eliminating the root cause of humping. If the marines think they can rely on their comm for ammo they won't bother with the armory.
Is that clearer?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Clearer doesn't cut it - it sounds like a completely different idea altogether that I wouldn't have been arguing against.
Edit: regenerating ammo was suggested by invader Zim, hence my response to it
No prevention necessary.
Clearer doesn't cut it - it sounds like a completely different idea altogether that I wouldn't have been arguing against.
Edit: regenerating ammo was suggested by invader Zim, hence my response to it<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
HAHA, if you want you can go back and read my orig post with that new understanding, I haven't edited it. Your criticisms make a lot more sense now.
My idea is this, all players "spawn" with the obligatory 3 clips (1 loaded, 2 reserved)
as an upgrade at the armory for the commander to determine to do, he can choose to UPGRADE a players spawning ammo reservoir. Lets say 10 res to spawn with 25 more bullets every upgrade
therefore you can upgrade theoretically (assuming the amount of ammo from NS1 carries over into NS2) 6 times so that every player spawns with full ammo, that way players have no need for armory humping unless they run out and manage to find themselves back at base. Bam, spend 1 res and you have 250 more bullets available.
comms would still be able to drop ammo packs as needed<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->This brings up a few bad scenarios.
When you are being attacked in your spawn and your Comm is desperately trying to save for a beacon, just one or two guys resupplying from zero (costing 1-2 res) can delay this and potentially lose the game because an important structure goes down.
---
But my main gripe with this is that experienced Commanders just won't get these upgrades, they will use the resources on more important things and spend resources on players who won't waste the ammo. The only way this ammo upgrade would work is if Comm ammo-drops were removed from the game (which is something I'd love to see, incidentally).
It's been said before, but really the absolute best way to solve this problem is not with convoluted upgrade systems, or power bars, but with player healing and resupply items that, if dropped, can be picked up by anyone else and be administered to anyone by anyone. This would remove all of the unneccessary twitch medpacking that makes learning the Commander so hard to begin with, and allow the Comm to focus on commanding instead of babysitting.
I think if ammo packs were removed we'd have a lot of frustrated players without ammo. Especially at hives far away from base.
<!--quoteo(post=1676531:date=Apr 22 2008, 05:49 AM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Apr 22 2008, 05:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676531"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's been said before, but really the absolute best way to solve this problem is not with convoluted upgrade systems, or power bars, but with player healing and resupply items that, if dropped, can be picked up by anyone else and be administered to anyone by anyone. This would remove all of the unneccessary twitch medpacking that makes learning the Commander so hard to begin with, and allow the Comm to focus on commanding instead of babysitting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The simplest, and possibly best, way to solve this problem is to have marines spawn with full ammo. That addresses the problem directly. The reason I suggested an ammopack(and that is "ammopack" which is dropped by the commander, as distinguished from simply "ammo" which you get from the armory) powerbar was to take the fix beyond the purview of only armory humping.
theorcraftX
Indeed.
<!--quoteo(post=1676538:date=Apr 22 2008, 09:28 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Apr 22 2008, 09:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676538"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The simplest, and possibly best, way to solve this problem is to have marines spawn with full ammo. That addresses the problem directly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
--and creates a new one, no? As I tried explaining earlier in this thread (previous page at bottom), since the marines fire ranged weapons with finite quantities of ammunition, it means they are carrying more damage. Could this be balanced? If you gave structures and players armor classes with different values for damage reduction (i.e.: Warcraft III and Starcraft II for example, some armor is better at resisting one type of damage but have vulnerabilities to other type)
<!--quoteo(post=1676557:date=Apr 22 2008, 02:56 PM:name=Sarisel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sarisel @ Apr 22 2008, 02:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676557"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How many people do this right? In my experience, too many people do everything wrong. Might as well give players a hand so that they can be a little bit less annoying.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly! Well said Sarisel.
1.25x speed > 2 resources
Then there would be no armory humping when the commander didn't want it.
If the armory is shutdown, there could be a "warmup" process before it's turned on again. this is to prevent flicking the armory on/off.
Yea, it seems simply.. but when I think about it more.. I come to this conclusion..
If marines were able to get ammo faster, by average..they'd live longer because of the extra ammunition. Giving the marines a huge advtange early in the game..
I think for NS 2 the team should find a sweet spot for how fast/much ammo the armory gives out, then give the comm the ability to shut down the armory to keep the balance..
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why not give the commander the ability to De-activate an armory, and when players try to engage the armory it will replay the commander's message, "There is no time, move to your waypoint soldier".
Then there would be no armory humping when the commander didn't want it.
If the armory is shutdown, there could be a "warmup" process before it's turned on again. this is to prevent flicking the armory on/off.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If marines were able to get ammo faster, by average..they'd live longer because of the extra ammunition. Giving the marines a huge advtange early in the game..
I think for NS 2 the team should find a sweet spot for how fast/much ammo the armory gives out, then give the comm the ability to shut down the armory to keep the balance..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't necessarily think it will make marines live longer, if I want full ammo reserve clips then I will wait until it's full, be it if that takes 10 seconds or 5. If anything it wouldn't make them live longer but be able to leave the base faster which, in comparison to the huge speed advantage aliens have already wouldn't make all to much of a difference. And there has been plenty of times when I had full ammo and got killed relatively fast so all that extra ammo didn't help me live longer at all, if anything just had me waste more time getting all of it.
If marines were able to get ammo faster, by average..they'd live longer because of the extra ammunition. Giving the marines a huge advtange early in the game..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is just dishonest.
If you take a look at competitive play, you'll realize that an extra second or two will let you get the jump on an alien and COMPLETELY change the course of the game. (If pressure team dies before killing a node, they can just disconnect) Also, take into consideration the time it takes to get the armory up. Out of the 5 marines on the ground, what usually happens is that the 2 on the capping team and the shotgunner build it while the pressure runs ahead to cap the first node. Also, ammo slows you down considerably and at the level when even a 1% increase in efficiency can win you the game, that counts.
Most posts are addressing the specific mechanics of getting ammo from the armory. However, the problem is not with the armory. The problem is with the players. Or is it?
Who humps the armory? Players who have not yet grasped the urgency of the game. In many other games you "load up" so you don't run out of ammo. They think time is not an issue, and ammo is free, so why not? But the solution is not in making it cost something, in time, ammo, or commander intervention. The solution is to help players realize that this game is about efficient teamwork, and the quicker you get out there in the field to fight with your teammates the better your chances of winning.
What about some type of audio reinforcement? I think the TF2 Heavy auto-say "I LOVE this Medic!" is genius. If a player is armory humping and there's another player nearby, there could be an auto-say like "Stop gettin ammo and shoot some aliens, son!" "Ammo won't help you in an onos' belly" etc. Of course this could be implemented throughout the game in other situations like with welding, etc.
If you just solve armory humping, you're not addressing the underlying issue: educating new players about how to play. You could fix armory humping and they would still be just as likely to run off into some random corner to camp or hang around base to guard it and wait for 'turrents'.
The only abuse I can see is a commander setting a series of close wayoints to get his team loaded up with ammo for free. I'm sure UWE could build the system to cope with that.
The only abuse I can see is a commander setting a series of close wayoints to get his team loaded up with ammo for free. I'm sure UWE could build the system to cope with that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've never liked the idea of using baits to get the marine to the waypoint. Obiviously it would be necessary nowadays, but hopefully ns 2 will be somewhat more newbie friendly. If they understood the game better they actually might stop humping the armory and start going to waypoints.
It's not like a huge bribe (suh as a bigger gun), to get the player to go out of their way and do something un-FPS like, such as "building" or using a menu.
Speaking of newbie friendliness you'd have to educate new players that waypoints=ammo, but that could be established in the same tutorial that introduces waypoints. I don't think any tutotials needs to cover the FPS basics (moving, crouching, jumping, shooting), but their should definitely be tutotials for NS unique features, such as command, teamwork and construction.
--and creates a new one, no? As I tried explaining earlier in this thread (previous page at bottom), since the marines fire ranged weapons with finite quantities of ammunition, it means they are carrying more damage. Could this be balanced? If you gave structures and players armor classes with different values for damage reduction (i.e.: Warcraft III and Starcraft II for example, some armor is better at resisting one type of damage but have vulnerabilities to other type)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it could be balanced without resistances. I say it might be the best because it's the simplest, but I still prefer my original solution(of course).
<!--quoteo(post=1676063:date=Apr 17 2008, 12:18 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Apr 17 2008, 12:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676063"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Right now using the armory is a tradeoff. Time invested vs. time spent. You'll want an extra pack if you're traveling far or might run in into an OC.
Even though this is solely a pub problem maybe the answer can add depth to the game.
The armory should have a "power bar" like the obs. The ammo packs dropped while the bar has enough energy are free.
- commanders will be persuaded to drop more ammo packs, since they're "free"
- good commanders can manage their resflow better
- multiple amories, encouraging decoys, maybe opening up armories to have specific paths, ie one path for flamethrower, another for heavy weapons
- marines don't worry about ammo so much because comms drop it and won't feel the need to hump<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since there was some confusion earlier I just want to make sure that everyone knows when I say ammopack I specifically mean the ammopack that commanders drop, and not ammo that is received from the armory. The ammopack bar wouldn't have to be on the armory I just think that's the most logical place.
Armory Humping was a good thing for Aliens due to the easiness of rampaging through the marine base and killing their entire team before anyone could get a shot off.
However, I've always found it broke the gameplay up a little bit.
If players got full ammo and their clips were instantly filled once they 'use' the armory, it would keep the game going for the players without slowing things down very much.
An example of where this system works well is CS where players have to initially buy more primary ammo if they want to stay in the fight long enough.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=104124&view=findpost&p=1679307" target="_blank">I thought Juice made a good point.</a>
Could you either sketch that or elaborate? I'm not sure what you had in mind.
1. Make the ammount of ammo you get from the armory double what it currently is.
2. Make it so the marine has to spend his personal credits/resources on armory ammo. 1 res per armory use.
If every marine starts with 0 personal resources, armory humping will not be possible when a game first starts.
-This will teach marines to think about when they should buy more ammo to take with them.
-This will teach marines to save personal resources for something better like weapons/upgrades.
Armory humpers will learn very quickly when there is a personal cost involved. Especially if there is an armory menu that shows the price of shottys, hmg's and other goodies they can buy when they save up their personal res.