yet another why NS is dead and what can we do about it topic,
Voodo_HUN
Join Date: 2006-11-29 Member: 58773Members
Join Date: 2006-11-29 Member: 58773Members
combat killed ns.
when the site went down it killed ns.
it kills NS that the developers of NS2 is just posting ideas, nothing concrete, not a map, not a model.
and idiots kills ns, who shout off other peoples head because they are better.
it kills NS that people are lazy to learn so they play combat and call classic NS ######.
it kills Ns that there are only a few GOOD server (where the hitbox isnt behind the modell with at least 2 kilometers).
its killing NS that even the few NS server's admins are idiots, they ban, kick because they can.
it kills NS that the communities ARE NOT working together.
and last, it kills NS that everyone just talks about its dieing, but no one does a ######in thing about it.
so how could we do?
for player side:
tell your friends about this game, try invite players for 1-2 round from other games (forget CS, they are idiots, try DOD, etc)
be more supportive towards new players
######in stop stacking on public
on DEVELOPER side:
ADVERTISE THE GAME, how do you want more players if no one even knows this game exists?<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />??
host SERVERS with GOOD HITBOXES.
i know you are all busy with NS2, but i dont really see, what exactly are you doing, coz only thing i saw was IDEAS, and a few LUA script code (what i understand, you have to be done with the base of the game first, but damn, 2 years now!)
make a leaning mod for NS to help new players to get started (cl_autohelp is worthless).
STOP BALANCING FOR COMBAT IN FUTURE VERSIONS, ns is Classic NS, not combat. Combat is good for aim practise, but nothing more.
could implant something LIKE the Veteran system was, except not like that. Every winner of community(ENSL, ANSL, YO Cup, Alpha gaming Cup, et cetera) league would gets an icon next to his/her name on the score board.(makes player to go competitive from pub nubing)
1 word worth 100, stop whining, and do something.
links:
ensl.zanith.nl
www.ansl.us
www.alphagaming.net
www.yoclan.com
PS: sry for my bad language.
edit: every new player (ID -ed by Steam ID) would get a TEMPORARLY icon next to his name that he is new to the game.
when the site went down it killed ns.
it kills NS that the developers of NS2 is just posting ideas, nothing concrete, not a map, not a model.
and idiots kills ns, who shout off other peoples head because they are better.
it kills NS that people are lazy to learn so they play combat and call classic NS ######.
it kills Ns that there are only a few GOOD server (where the hitbox isnt behind the modell with at least 2 kilometers).
its killing NS that even the few NS server's admins are idiots, they ban, kick because they can.
it kills NS that the communities ARE NOT working together.
and last, it kills NS that everyone just talks about its dieing, but no one does a ######in thing about it.
so how could we do?
for player side:
tell your friends about this game, try invite players for 1-2 round from other games (forget CS, they are idiots, try DOD, etc)
be more supportive towards new players
######in stop stacking on public
on DEVELOPER side:
ADVERTISE THE GAME, how do you want more players if no one even knows this game exists?<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />??
host SERVERS with GOOD HITBOXES.
i know you are all busy with NS2, but i dont really see, what exactly are you doing, coz only thing i saw was IDEAS, and a few LUA script code (what i understand, you have to be done with the base of the game first, but damn, 2 years now!)
make a leaning mod for NS to help new players to get started (cl_autohelp is worthless).
STOP BALANCING FOR COMBAT IN FUTURE VERSIONS, ns is Classic NS, not combat. Combat is good for aim practise, but nothing more.
could implant something LIKE the Veteran system was, except not like that. Every winner of community(ENSL, ANSL, YO Cup, Alpha gaming Cup, et cetera) league would gets an icon next to his/her name on the score board.(makes player to go competitive from pub nubing)
1 word worth 100, stop whining, and do something.
links:
ensl.zanith.nl
www.ansl.us
www.alphagaming.net
www.yoclan.com
PS: sry for my bad language.
edit: every new player (ID -ed by Steam ID) would get a TEMPORARLY icon next to his name that he is new to the game.
Comments
Didn't you heard that they've got an investor? Didn't you see their new office? Didn't you see that their team has increased?
They can't just show off every little thing they have. Its no indie job anymore, now they have rules and contracts they have to stick to, I'm sure that their investors wouldn't like to see every little bit of the game made public. Someone can steal their ideas for ****'s sake. Anyway, you probably have seen what's happening on the forum each time where a little bit of information is given away - it changes to a battlefield. Personally I don't want to hear nor see anything until they stamp everything with a big red label saying "APPROVED".
combat killed ns.
when the site went down it killed ns.
it kills NS that the developers of NS2 is just posting ideas, nothing concrete, not a map, not a model.
and idiots kills ns, who shout off other peoples head because they are better.
it kills NS that people are lazy to learn so they play combat and call classic NS ######.
it kills Ns that there are only a few GOOD server (where the hitbox isnt behind the modell with at least 2 kilometers).
its killing NS that even the few NS server's admins are idiots, they ban, kick because they can.
it kills NS that the communities ARE NOT working together.
and last, it kills NS that everyone just talks about its dieing, but no one does a ######in thing about it.
so how could we do?
for player side:
tell your friends about this game, try invite players for 1-2 round from other games (forget CS, they are idiots, try DOD, etc)
be more supportive towards new players######in stop stacking on public
on DEVELOPER side:
ADVERTISE THE GAME, how do you want more players if no one even knows this game exists?<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />??
host SERVERS with GOOD HITBOXES.
i know you are all busy with NS2, but i dont really see, what exactly are you doing, coz only thing i saw was IDEAS, and a few LUA script code (what i understand, you have to be done with the base of the game first, but damn, 2 years now!)
make a leaning mod for NS to help new players to get started (cl_autohelp is worthless).
STOP BALANCING FOR COMBAT IN FUTURE VERSIONS, ns is Classic NS, not combat. Combat is good for aim practise, but nothing more.
could implant something LIKE the Veteran system was, except not like that. Every winner of community(ENSL, ANSL, YO Cup, Alpha gaming Cup, et cetera) league would gets an icon next to his/her name on the score board.(makes player to go competitive from pub nubing)
1 word worth 100, stop whining, and do something.
links:
ensl.zanith.nl
www.ansl.us
www.alphagaming.net
www.yoclan.com
PS: sry for my bad language.
edit: every new player (ID -ed by Steam ID) would get a TEMPORARLY icon next to his name that he is new to the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
agreed
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->QUOTE(Voodo_HUN @ Apr 29 2008, 08:50 PM) *
forgive me , if i dont see NS2 coming (or if it will come it will be another 2-2.5 years), i havent seen anything concrete, only concept arts, only ideas. the only thing i actually saw from NS2 is probably the dynamic infestation ages ago, so forgive me if im beeing pessimistic
Didn't you heard that they've got an investor? Didn't you see their new office? Didn't you see that their team has increased?
They can't just show off every little thing they have. Its no indie job anymore, now they have rules and contracts they have to stick to, I'm sure that their investors wouldn't like to see every little bit of the game made public. Someone can steal their ideas for ****'s sake. Anyway, you probably have seen what's happening on the forum each time where a little bit of information is given away - it changes to a battlefield. Personally I don't want to hear nor see anything until they stamp everything with a big red label saying "APPROVED".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its not hard and i dont think you need to go through an investor just to post a pic of a map thats WIP or a model dude. Every other mod/game i know of has done this.
TAL'D
That wasn't even done on the Source engine. If, when HL2 came out, you made a joke about NS2 being at the concept art stage in Summer 2008 you'd get shouted at for implying it'd take so long to make a sequel.
Based on past progress, I don't see how NS2 could be at a playable level in the next 12 months.
NS is an old game on an even older engine. With that in mind, it's still pulling rather amazing player numbers. It's #4 for most players on an HL1 / Source mod. It's beating every source mod out there (Insurgency, Zombie Panic, Dystopia) and it's beating just about every other free / non-professional mod as well. It's really impressive. NS was clearly built with a solid foundation if it can still pull those kinds of numbers in 2008, especially when you consider the amount of Half-Life based games / mods and newer popular multiplayer games that could 'steal' players away from NS (CoD4, WoW, etc).
Your big list of 'what killed NS' has some truths. Obviously, the web site being down isn't something that helped and I think you're right when you say Combat and Classic should be balanced differently, but I don't see too many valid points beside those. Saying "Combat killed NS" could only really be true if the balance changes made were for Combat, yet had negative repercussions on Classic. I don't think that was ever the case, and I think Combat was another way to play NS thereby opening up NS to different types of players.
As for the other points, I won't pretend to know what business stage Unknown Worlds is in. They could still be trying to find financing, they could be trying to hire developers, or they could want to iron out all of their ideas before starting actual production. One thing is for sure though, anything they do for NS2 (such as posting ideas for their new game) is only helping NS, not hurting it. I'm also not sure how taking resources off NS2 and putting them back on NS would help.
The fact is that NS's time is just up. It had a great run and it's still going. I doubt NS will ever see the 1,000+ players it use to get, but for a game that's 5 years old it's holding its ground.
With that said I think the reply SentrySteve hit the nail on the head.
<!--quoteo(post=1679027:date=May 20 2008, 01:03 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SentrySteve @ May 20 2008, 01:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679027"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Call me crazy, but NS isn't dead.
NS is an old game on an even older engine. With that in mind, it's still pulling rather amazing player numbers. [...] It had a great run and it's still going. I doubt NS will ever see the 1,000+ players it use to get, but for a game that's 5 years old it's holding its ground.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was kind of basis behind my reaction to <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=104109" target="_blank">this thread</a>. (I'd suggest all people reading this thread to reply in it) It actually doesn't matter how old the multiplayer game is as long as it's fun to play and people to play it with.
when the site went down it killed ns.
it kills NS that the developers of NS2 is just posting ideas, nothing concrete, not a map, not a model.
and idiots kills ns, who shout off other peoples head because they are better.
it kills NS that people are lazy to learn so they play combat and call classic NS ######.
it kills Ns that there are only a few GOOD server (where the hitbox isnt behind the modell with at least 2 kilometers).
its killing NS that even the few NS server's admins are idiots, they ban, kick because they can.
it kills NS that the communities ARE NOT working together.
and last, it kills NS that everyone just talks about its dieing, but no one does a ######in thing about it.
so how could we do?
for player side:
tell your friends about this game, try invite players for 1-2 round from other games (forget CS, they are idiots, try DOD, etc)
be more supportive towards new players
######in stop stacking on public
on DEVELOPER side:
ADVERTISE THE GAME, how do you want more players if no one even knows this game exists?<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />??
host SERVERS with GOOD HITBOXES.
i know you are all busy with NS2, but i dont really see, what exactly are you doing, coz only thing i saw was IDEAS, and a few LUA script code (what i understand, you have to be done with the base of the game first, but damn, 2 years now!)
make a leaning mod for NS to help new players to get started (cl_autohelp is worthless).
STOP BALANCING FOR COMBAT IN FUTURE VERSIONS, ns is Classic NS, not combat. Combat is good for aim practise, but nothing more.
could implant something LIKE the Veteran system was, except not like that. Every winner of community(ENSL, ANSL, YO Cup, Alpha gaming Cup, et cetera) league would gets an icon next to his/her name on the score board.(makes player to go competitive from pub nubing)
1 word worth 100, stop whining, and do something.
links:
ensl.zanith.nl
www.ansl.us
www.alphagaming.net
www.yoclan.com
PS: sry for my bad language.
edit: every new player (ID -ed by Steam ID) would get a TEMPORARLY icon next to his name that he is new to the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol takes time buddy. maybe the actual MAKING of the game doesn't but Chuck and co. are STARTING a company from scratch, it won't happen anytime soon haha (unless you want to pay their bills?)
when the site went down it killed ns.
it kills NS that the developers of NS2 is just posting ideas, nothing concrete, not a map, not a model.
and idiots kills ns, who shout off other peoples head because they are better.
it kills NS that people are lazy to learn so they play combat and call classic NS ######.
it kills Ns that there are only a few GOOD server (where the hitbox isnt behind the modell with at least 2 kilometers).
its killing NS that even the few NS server's admins are idiots, they ban, kick because they can.
it kills NS that the communities ARE NOT working together.
and last, it kills NS that everyone just talks about its dieing, but no one does a ######in thing about it.
so how could we do?
for player side:
tell your friends about this game, try invite players for 1-2 round from other games (forget CS, they are idiots, try DOD, etc)
be more supportive towards new players
######in stop stacking on public
on DEVELOPER side:
ADVERTISE THE GAME, how do you want more players if no one even knows this game exists?<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />??
host SERVERS with GOOD HITBOXES.
i know you are all busy with NS2, but i dont really see, what exactly are you doing, coz only thing i saw was IDEAS, and a few LUA script code (what i understand, you have to be done with the base of the game first, but damn, 2 years now!)
make a leaning mod for NS to help new players to get started (cl_autohelp is worthless).
STOP BALANCING FOR COMBAT IN FUTURE VERSIONS, ns is Classic NS, not combat. Combat is good for aim practise, but nothing more.
could implant something LIKE the Veteran system was, except not like that. Every winner of community(ENSL, ANSL, YO Cup, Alpha gaming Cup, et cetera) league would gets an icon next to his/her name on the score board.(makes player to go competitive from pub nubing)
1 word worth 100, stop whining, and do something.
links:
ensl.zanith.nl
www.ansl.us
www.alphagaming.net
www.yoclan.com
PS: sry for my bad language.
edit: every new player (ID -ed by Steam ID) would get a TEMPORARLY icon next to his name that he is new to the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh the irony
64.94.238.43:27015
<BAD> Clan Server (NS ONLY)
We are not in BAD clan we just got permission to use the name for the BAD clan name might draw some gamers into the great server.
I can see many parallels and think that many players left the natural selection community because of anti-social behaviour and new players get discourage by the behaviour of the community.
Elitism and arrogance, egoism, fake nicks, stacking and the usual flaming are things that come to mind.
The lack of updates and that the website was offline for 1 year is surly another factor – but surly not the main reason
The invention of Combat was a chance for the community to attract new players but the community failed miserable.
Especially casual gamers left natural selection and they’re one backbone of the community. Yes the “Average Joe†public player is the backbone – not the competitive players. As the casual players left many server died especially those attractive to casual players.
Not external factors are responsible – we are responsible – the natural selection community.
@topic
I don’t think we’re able to do anything. I never heard of a community able to recovery from such a dramatic loss of users.
Nope. If people like to play a game enough, they'll learn how to use the mute function. These things exist in the CS community on a much larger scale, but I don't see that game dead.
<!--quoteo(post=1679622:date=May 28 2008, 11:56 AM:name=Scylla)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Scylla @ May 28 2008, 11:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679622"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The lack of updates and that the website was offline for 1 year is surly another factor – but surly not the main reason<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, but perhaps a larger reason that you think. The sites downtime had massive ramifications.
<!--quoteo(post=1679622:date=May 28 2008, 11:56 AM:name=Scylla)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Scylla @ May 28 2008, 11:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679622"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The invention of Combat was a chance for the community to attract new players but the community failed miserable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Excuse me? It's the community's fault that combat failed? How about the fact that it was horribly balanced and every single pub server furthered that unbalance with the infamous xmenu? Combat failed the NS community, not the other way around.
<!--quoteo(post=1679622:date=May 28 2008, 11:56 AM:name=Scylla)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Scylla @ May 28 2008, 11:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679622"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Especially casual gamers left natural selection and they’re one backbone of the community. Yes the “Average Joe†public player is the backbone – not the competitive players. As the casual players left many server died especially those attractive to casual players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bull. The casual gamers arent the ones playtesting and pushing the game to its limits in order to find improvements. People left in general because the game has turned to a big xmenu spamfest.
Mute is the counter for voice spam but not other anti-social behaviours. You have to consider that Natural Selection is social software and most people want to interact with other players. It’s a major reason why they play the game.
It’s difficult to compare Counter Strike with Natural Selection because the factors described in the article apply much more to Natural Selection than Counter Strike.
<!--quoteo(post=1679650:date=May 28 2008, 03:43 PM:name=Milo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Milo @ May 28 2008, 03:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679650"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->True, but perhaps a larger reason that you think. The sites downtime had massive ramifications.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can quantify the effect. But I can say that at the time the website went offline the player base of the Weasel’s Reborn-Server dropped by 20-30% within a month.
<!--quoteo(post=1679650:date=May 28 2008, 03:43 PM:name=Milo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Milo @ May 28 2008, 03:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679650"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Excuse me? It's the community's fault that combat failed? How about the fact that it was horribly balanced and every single pub server furthered that unbalance with the infamous xmenu? Combat failed the NS community, not the other way around.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I fully aware that combat is unbalanced and most xmenu-installations are unbalanced too. For me as server owner xmenu was the possibility to balance natural selection combat. It took 3-4 months to archive a ~50:50 win/loss ratio with a modified xmenu-plugin. But it was balanced for Weasel’s Retaliation Server and it’s a shame I did not had the time to create a fork usable for more servers out there.
And as I see combat and xmenu is NOT infamous. It’s the game mode the majority of the players play these days. Only because you don’t like it - or a group within the community -does not mean that’s infamous.
<!--quoteo(post=1679650:date=May 28 2008, 03:43 PM:name=Milo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Milo @ May 28 2008, 03:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679650"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bull. The casual gamers arent the ones playtesting and pushing the game to its limits in order to find improvements. People left in general because the game has turned to a big xmenu spamfest.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don’t know how a competitive scene can be established without the player base of casual gamers. They are the recruitment base for the competitive scene.
Well, you’re free to blame it all on combat. But that’s the same weak argumentation as “violent media lead to real violence†or “pornography lead to rapesâ€.
It seams to fit into the current times to blame everybody else than to think about the real reasons and what we have done wrong.
All credibility lost with this 1 sentence.
50:50 win/loss in public play doesnt mean its balanced.
All credibility lost with this 1 sentence.
50:50 win/loss in public play doesnt mean its balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never said that. I balanced it for my server – for my player base.
<!--quoteo(post=1679673:date=May 29 2008, 12:46 AM:name=Scylla)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Scylla @ May 29 2008, 12:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679673"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->.... But it was only balanced for my server (Weasel’s Retaliation Server) and it’s a shame I did not had the time to create a fork usable for more servers out there. *<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
* Quote edited to be more clear.
If I loose ALL credibility for misleading text, typos or stating that Natural Selection combat isn’t the major problem… well you should think about it.
I was able to balance it for my server based on a highly modified xmenu-plugin – the so-called backbone of the Natural Selection community of competitive player were not.
I don’t think this discussion lead to any conclusion. It seems to me that majority of users here is happy to blame it on the combat game mode without thinking any further about it.
- Malcolm Forbes<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well the “community†just refuses to discuss about it and stays on their position and blame combat, xmenu, the developers, the cat of the developers, and so on. Nobody thinks about the mistakes the community made – and what impact these mistakes had.
I just can suggest giving the article I posted a read. It’s really worth it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Some people say, "How can you live without knowing?" I do not know what they mean. I always live without knowing. That is easy. How you get to know is what I want to know.
- Richard Phillips Feynman<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only reason I still play this game is because I'm a pathetic clinger.
If Custom Titles on the forums were still assigned, I would just assigned you "Pathetically Clingy" <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/marine.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::marine::" border="0" alt="marine.gif" />
<img src="http://rtfo.org/~minddripper/Klinger7.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
That and many of the people that were apart of this community back in the beginning were in high school, much has changed. I only get on late at night when i get off work, conveniently when the server goes under maintenance.
I've always missed 1.04, the servers were unbeatable. I miss playing with the same 10-20 people every night on the same servers.