A good game versus |-| 4 |{ 5 0 r Z
UncleCrunch
Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos
Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos
Scripts / macro / aimbots / speedhacks / cheating skin / cheating sound / wallhack... pff The list is too long. As far as i know and doing some research in the forums ; no dev answered some questions about that matter.
I'm a NS player from the first hours and i played enough to be able to say that i saw many types of cheat / exploit users. They don't last long but there is always one. As you can easelly 'google' it, there will be always one. To my opinion you start to cheat at the moment you don't do all the things you have to do with your fingers / hands. Or using something that enable player to do things that wouldnt be possible normally (pistoleros-scripto-lol for example).
There is many ways to do things in HL/mods. But this is not where i want to go. And please don't take the bait <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
In order to avoid this nuisance :
* You have to make a game that seriously prevents from using cheats. I mean a game which is not too much bound by the aim ratio or performance factor (like marins wiggle walk). Something that makes players think they can have a fair fight. Beside balance problems.
Eventually : completly dark ambush places in maps. And if the marins kills you skulky. You have to ask yourself : am i skilled or not ? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />. ok you get the point. Darkplace for spoting the bas|ard
Eventually the game could have a configuration panel that allows to go further. For example "jump + duck" is what brings many people to the scripting land. It can be replaced with a checkbox on the configuration panel.
jump: 'choose key' [] (checkbox) make it jump and duck (or a selection menu).
You can make something for Jet-Pack too. I would call it contextual behavior. But i leave this to dev.
Basically : improve the game in different ways to prevent problems like these.
* And / or verify on the client machine that everything is ok.
From checksums on files (sounds / models) to specific third party program detection. Of course the choice to make security 'tight' is to leave to server admins. Casual servers aren't bound by the same needs than Competition server. Varible like no-skin = 1. whatever name for any case you can find (sound, models etc.).
We leave VAC there. VAC is just a joke. What i'm talking about is not only get rid of cheaters but also making cheat just not good enough to play the game.
So my question (here it) is:
As NS2 will be for sure a game that needs 2 teams / opponents wich are humans (or Kharra's; ok granted).
How devs will deal with that matter ? and how far are they willing to go about that matter ?
Thank you for your time.
I'm a NS player from the first hours and i played enough to be able to say that i saw many types of cheat / exploit users. They don't last long but there is always one. As you can easelly 'google' it, there will be always one. To my opinion you start to cheat at the moment you don't do all the things you have to do with your fingers / hands. Or using something that enable player to do things that wouldnt be possible normally (pistoleros-scripto-lol for example).
There is many ways to do things in HL/mods. But this is not where i want to go. And please don't take the bait <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
In order to avoid this nuisance :
* You have to make a game that seriously prevents from using cheats. I mean a game which is not too much bound by the aim ratio or performance factor (like marins wiggle walk). Something that makes players think they can have a fair fight. Beside balance problems.
Eventually : completly dark ambush places in maps. And if the marins kills you skulky. You have to ask yourself : am i skilled or not ? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />. ok you get the point. Darkplace for spoting the bas|ard
Eventually the game could have a configuration panel that allows to go further. For example "jump + duck" is what brings many people to the scripting land. It can be replaced with a checkbox on the configuration panel.
jump: 'choose key' [] (checkbox) make it jump and duck (or a selection menu).
You can make something for Jet-Pack too. I would call it contextual behavior. But i leave this to dev.
Basically : improve the game in different ways to prevent problems like these.
* And / or verify on the client machine that everything is ok.
From checksums on files (sounds / models) to specific third party program detection. Of course the choice to make security 'tight' is to leave to server admins. Casual servers aren't bound by the same needs than Competition server. Varible like no-skin = 1. whatever name for any case you can find (sound, models etc.).
We leave VAC there. VAC is just a joke. What i'm talking about is not only get rid of cheaters but also making cheat just not good enough to play the game.
So my question (here it) is:
As NS2 will be for sure a game that needs 2 teams / opponents wich are humans (or Kharra's; ok granted).
How devs will deal with that matter ? and how far are they willing to go about that matter ?
Thank you for your time.
Comments
Now as to scripts/macros, these are an important part of the game in many ways. One must be very careful not to hurt the users that just want to rebind thier controls, or switch between various key setups based on what type of alien they are. The pistal scripts of the past shouldnt IMO exist in NS2, not because scripts arent possible, but beacuse there should be a slight delay between the shots (so the human is as fast as the script).
There will always be features that will be exploited. If there is a particular quirk that gives even a slight advantage, you can be sure as hell any smart player will abuse it to no end. This is what differentiates good players from mediocre ones.
There is no way to stop cheating. Punkbuster is the best anti-cheat software out at this moment because it actually scans for inhuman movement. (snapping to specific locations, consistent screen jittering etc..)
Also, a new version of VDC is coming out, stay tuned.
Now as to scripts/macros, these are an important part of the game in many ways. One must be very careful not to hurt the users that just want to rebind thier controls, or switch between various key setups based on what type of alien they are.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally i use the 'commandmenu' stuff.
Create a file called "commandmenu.txt" in the NS directory. i looks like this ([...] content not shown)
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->"1" "Netgraph"
{
"1" "Activation - type"
{
"1" "Off" "net_graph 0"
[...]
"4" "On - mode graphique" "net_graph 3"
}
"2" "Position"
{
"1" "Bas droite" "net_graphpos 1"
[...]
"3" "Bas gauche" "net_graphpos 3"
}
"3" "Solid - Showdrop - showpacket"
{
"1" "Solid On" "net_graphsolid 1"
[...]
"6" "Showpacket Off" "net_showpackets 0"
}
}
"2" "config"
{
"1" "exec marins-bind.cfg"
"2" "exec aliens-bind.cfg"
[...]
}
3<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
You call it with a bind like : bind "F8" "+commandmenu" and that's it. Use the number on main keypad to select options. I do this to compensate the lack of a proper config panel. You can use it ingame but not like a pistol script. It just execute the commands you put in there. I can post complete working file if needed. Understand this can be achieved with a good config panel in NS2. Crysis is a good example (vehicule key config).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->enigma
There will always be features that will be exploited. If there is a particular quirk that gives even a slight advantage, you can be sure as hell any smart player will abuse it to no end. This is what differentiates good players from mediocre ones.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure of which one you're talking about... good players are exploiters ??... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
ok, what i mean is a lot of littles things can be done to just 'disinterest' people from using tons of exploits. Will stay only the bigger cheats that can be spoted more easily.
The one i love is me beside a pilar waiting for a fade. When he start to blink (trying to reach me), i strafe to get behind the pilar. And i see the poor fade hit the pilar... Pilar 1; fade 0...
What i learn from all these years (yeah now it's years) is you can win on any opponent with teamwork. At least not being defeated easily. Even in combat. When plug-ins are enabled: we use lerk lift for lifting gorges or onoses. We use chambers like SC. The sacrifice (in the score table) of one make the team win. I became a nightmare as gorge. I even enter the MS and bile bomb it. What a shame for a 13 players marins team...
I do it just to show these exploiters that whatever they use, they loose because they only invest in weapons (somtimes enhanced with aimbots) and not even a Scan area.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you suggesting to center thing game around movement? If so I'm all for it. Fades are the only counter to aimbotters btw.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why only movement? In fact all the thing that can make the game comfy like HL was in his time. HL was good because you could bind all the keys you needed from the interface. I threw away a lot of games just because of bad keybinding and config panels.
The keybinding is one of the thing , '+movement' is another one. I understand it take time to implement it compared to the visible part of the iceberg but these little things improve the game drastically.
If 'some' can be added to avoid the cheating temptation... No doubt, i'm for it.
Just leave net graph 3 on, if you're running at an acceptable resolution, it'll never bother you.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure of which one you're talking about... good players are exploiters ??... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not a single good player will mind exploits/tricks to improve performance, regardless of difficulty. While mediocre players will only worry about the basics.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ok, what i mean is a lot of littles things can be done to just 'disinterest' people from using tons of exploits. Will stay only the bigger cheats that can be spoted more easily.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is a line between scripting and hacking. Scripting uses in-game tools (scripts) for customization purposes, while hacking is the use of external programs to gain a clear advantage. What you have suggested thus far only related to scripting and not hacking. There is no script which will aim for you, therefore games which focus on aiming skill will still warrant aimbots. You can drift away from centering the game around aim, which will lessen the impact, but it'll still be there unless you're making Sim City or something.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The one i love is me beside a pilar waiting for a fade. When he start to blink (trying to reach me), i strafe to get behind the pilar. And i see the poor fade hit the pilar... Pilar 1; fade 0...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What i learn from all these years (yeah now it's years) is you can win on any opponent with teamwork. At least not being defeated easily. Even in combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol
Combat is horribly imbalanced towards focus carapace regen fades. The only way marines can win is if they clearly outskill and outkill the aliens early. While in classic, no amount of teamwork is going to make up for your marines getting killed as soon as they step outside of marine start. In order to cap the RTs and get the phase gates up, your marines need to kill skulks. Right?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The sacrifice (in the score table) of one make the team win.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its not a one player victory. Someone has to drop chambers, someone has to drop rts, someone has to drop a hive and most importantly, someone has to go fade. The player that goes fade has the biggest responsibility on the team and fades require the most skill to use properly. If its anyone that a win can be attributed to on the alien team its the fade. You know, the guy that goes 50-0 in your pubs.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I do it just to show these exploiters that whatever they use, they loose because they only invest in weapons (somtimes enhanced with aimbots) and not even a Scan area.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are a CPL champ.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The keybinding is one of the thing , '+movement' is another one. I understand it take time to implement it compared to the visible part of the iceberg but these little things improve the game drastically.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+movement didn't stop cheating or made it less attractive. It just made fading accessible to players that didn't know how to script out blink.
It's just an commandmenu example; The point isn't about netgraph. With this, i don't have to type "exec 'mybind1.cfg'" or "netgraph XX". I don't have to go to the console.
Imagine that kind of system on NS2. If i have a jump+duck in NS2 i won't have to script, to learn scripting and ultimatly to be exposed to the temptation of 'pistolscript'. And maybee more.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not a single good player will mind exploits/tricks to improve performance, regardless of difficulty. While mediocre players will only worry about the basics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
'Was a joke... You probably missed it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is a line between scripting and hacking. Scripting uses in-game tools (scripts) for customization purposes, while hacking is the use of external programs to gain a clear advantage. What you have suggested thus far only related to scripting and not hacking. There is no script which will aim for you, therefore games which focus on aiming skill will still warrant aimbots. You can drift away from centering the game around aim, which will lessen the impact, but it'll still be there unless you're making Sim City or something.
lol<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Combat is horribly imbalanced towards focus carapace regen fades. The only way marines can win is if they clearly outskill and outkill the aliens early. While in classic, no amount of teamwork is going to make up for your marines getting killed as soon as they step outside of marine start. In order to cap the RTs and get the phase gates up, your marines need to kill skulks. Right?
Its not a one player victory. Someone has to drop chambers, someone has to drop rts, someone has to drop a hive and most importantly, someone has to go fade. The player that goes fade has the biggest responsibility on the team and fades require the most skill to use properly. If its anyone that a win can be attributed to on the alien team its the fade. You know, the guy that goes 50-0 in your pubs.
You are a CPL champ.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Apparently you pick only details, just keep in mind the big picture.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->+movement didn't stop cheating or made it less attractive. It just made fading accessible to players that didn't know how to script out blink.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Before +movement, fade skills where bound to what player can do and what player knows about the game (scripting and/or more). A lot of scripted fades where calling what they did 'skill'. Well, typing a script is not a FPS skill to my opinion. The important thing isn't about scripting or not, but do all the new players will be able to use it (make it) to fit their own needs BECAUSE the game IS OFFICIALLY authorizing it.
As for (open)GL (another example) setting that remove any translucent texture. Where is the line? It's a ingame setting, but if you use it some maps becomes a real pain for aliens (can't remember that one agora? ayumi? where you could hide behind some infestation camoflage). BTW these maps were removed from the official set.
So, what devs think about that matter ? and do they intend to get things straight like: This you can!, this you can't, period. And when it was said "you can't" : forcing client settings to fit in the community. Remember ; it's an example among the possible things (technical). My question cover a far biger perimeter than scripting.
Sure, they can be annoying some times. The Blink/Focus Fade scripts drive me insane occasionally. However; One can only call themselves a 'skilled' player if they can learn to counter these types of scripts if they refuse to use them themselves. As far as the pistol script goes, I can use my trigger finger and the left click button on my mouse to do the exact same thing but often with more precision. IMO, pistol-scripters are at a disadvantage as if you can manage to dodge all their bullets (which can be quite easy if they don't know how to -aim- then you win.
What?
This thread illustrates why there needs to be a way to filter players into similar skill levels, not exactly the same, but only one or two steps away. NS2 will exacerbate this problem because of how much the developers seem to care about deep gameplay, and complex strategy.
Filtering is not the answer. People are enough awaken to see they got spanked. They'll just take the time to find servers that fit their level.
A question remains : What is skill ? ( we all have a different idea )
Having a config that includes strange (over/under)rates settings, openGL settings that remove translucent textures (BTW these setting were made for slow PC. No need to say, it's useless now), script, sprite replacement (skinning), player models with a big sign above the head (i'm here!), wallhax, and the third party program suite... is it skill ?
All these haxkiddies will say : "it's legal dude !" as long as no official forbid it and as long it's technically possible. "Legal"... for a game... it makes me laugh.
Can you achieve the learning curve of NS without any add-on ? (like install the game / configure keyboard and that's it).
Where is the line in the dev's mind ? and How they gonna limit/restrict or enhance the 'server' to apply what they decide ? Do NS² players will play the same game ? Playing a game means rules. With HL engine you can modify the engine behavior and finally bend the rules. And ultimatly : How dev's gonna make sure (and do they want) that the NS2 set of rules is enforced in both ways (way 1 , restrict. Way 2, make it accessible for new players, +docs, +tutorial etc...).
Please devs... thanks for your time.
I guess the argument about finding more servers was reasonable, but false - any good player (or griefer) will join servers full of low-skill players, and there's nothing you can do to stop that if you don't restrict access with a filtering system - not to force players to play only with their exact peers, but to stop serious gaps in skill from frustrating the good players, and frustrating the low-skill ones - albeit for completely different reasons.
This reminds me of the playtesting of the Vrs 2.0 which was not a total faillure but not a great succes either. All the top 10 teams had their own 'config' which was not representative of the community. That is the reason why dev's create the constellation program. But again ... long story.
Legal = "established by or founded upon law or official or accepted rules", ie (cause I know your not that smart), what the devs/leagues say about scripting - which is that its 'legal'.
Although the constellation program members have been invited to do beta testing in the past, this is not our primary function. I forget when I joined constellation exactly, but I've been through at least 2 two beta tests and we were not given common configs. I can't speak for the playtesters, but that group has been around much longer than the consties. They would be more likely to have "common config" rules because they get the betas so much earlier than the consties. When it gets to the constie level the devs are looking for people with different configs as a minor stress test kind of thing anyway.
I've played fairly heavily during each release and while I've seen cheaters, I've never seen the "epidemic" other people have. I have seen "scripting" confused with "playing well" and "cheating". It is very hard it distinguish an ESP hack from someone who knows the game and maps and has headphones. That's why a very few clanners were able to cheat for a while, their own skill hid the fact they were using a hack.
Sure, they can be annoying some times. The Blink/Focus Fade scripts drive me insane occasionally. However; One can only call themselves a 'skilled' player if they can learn to counter these types of scripts if they refuse to use them themselves. As far as the pistol script goes, I can use my trigger finger and the left click button on my mouse to do the exact same thing but often with more precision. IMO, pistol-scripters are at a disadvantage as if you can manage to dodge all their bullets (which can be quite easy if they don't know how to -aim- then you win.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You answered your own question. If they haven't made something "ergonomic" then thats what it is suppose to be, by design.
Ive not seen a single game that have benefited the actual game from having a script system. However i've seen games that have been effectively ruined by script systems to a point where i actually felt sad for people who tired to play the game without scripts (Savage: The Battle for Newerth). Anyone trying to play that game and try to be anywhere near as "competetive" as the ones who are running scripts is simply not possible. However, in the sequel this has been supposedly "fixed".
Looking at what people usually use scripts and macros for (in games) is quite obvious when you look at Autohotkey forums. What bothers me the most is why is there no other games in there? Looks like its just BF2 and seems to be the most popular topics (over 100+ posts) regarding any game and use of Autohotkey. I guess when every other game has some form of scripting built into them the use of Autohotkey seems pointless. Although most of the scripts there seem to be next to useless but there are some obvious things there like infamous "dolphin dive" or the usual "anti-recoil" crap.
Scripts benefit only those who know how use them. Expecting that average gamer is suppose to learn these systems to be able to play like the rest is absurd. Integrating script systems in the game suggests that is what people are suppose to do. The game developers should be the ones deciding how the game is played and not individual players.
Ive not seen a single game that have benefited the actual game from having a script system. However i've seen games that have been effectively ruined by script systems to a point where i actually felt sad for people who tired to play the game without scripts (Savage: The Battle for Newerth). Anyone trying to play that game and try to be anywhere near as "competetive" as the ones who are running scripts is simply not possible. However, in the sequel this has been supposedly "fixed".
Looking at what people usually use scripts and macros for (in games) is quite obvious when you look at Autohotkey forums. What bothers me the most is why is there no other games in there? Looks like its just BF2 and seems to be the most popular topics (over 100+ posts) regarding any game and use of Autohotkey. I guess when every other game has some form of scripting built into them the use of Autohotkey seems pointless. Although most of the scripts there seem to be next to useless but there are some obvious things there like infamous "dolphin dive" or the usual "anti-recoil" crap.
Scripts benefit only those who know how use them. Expecting that average gamer is suppose to learn these systems to be able to play like the rest is absurd. Integrating script systems in the game suggests that is what people are suppose to do. The game developers should be the ones deciding how the game is played and not individual players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You made an interesting point. I agree with some of what you've said, but unfortunately not the main point.
Firstly, yes he did answer his own question; it was a rethorical question. [/nitpicking]
Secondly and more importantly, I agree that it would be better to include a system of hotkeying to go that is easily accessible to new players, instead of relying on the knowledge of scripting to meander it's way to Per - the enthusiastic but overwhelmed newbie. On the other hand, I definitely do not agree with your last statement of the intentions of developers contra those of the players. In reality the players decide how the game is played while the game developers simply build the setting and then let go.
Developers can of course alter the way the game is played after the fact to tweak imbalances or set the players on the 'right path' towards the gameplay ideal they see. It would probably hurt the game in the long run to take too much control over the way a game is played as a developer however. The key to longevity and great competition - if you look at other succesful games throughout the late 90s and on - seem to be to release a game, see how it's played and then tweak it around the actual end-gameplay. Rather than the idealised version the developers themselves spawned while making pretty models and coming up with great settings pre release. Because in all honesty it was the game the players themselves set up that was successful, not the one imagined but not played.
THE CPL IS DEAD OH MY GOD ANGEL MUNOZ WHAT THE ###### ARE TO DO NOW OH MY GOD
<!--quoteo(post=1673054:date=Mar 12 2008, 03:18 PM:name=UncleCrunch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(UncleCrunch @ Mar 12 2008, 03:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673054"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All these haxkiddies will say : "it's legal dude !" as long as no official forbid it and as long it's technically possible. "Legal"... for a game... it makes me laugh.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
just because we support scripting doesn't mean we use scripts. it's the principle of customization that's important to us. all I hear from you is a ton of QQing, blaming your terribleness on useless scripts that no one even uses. suck it up, get better, and realize that there are players that are <i>that</i> damn good (such as myself).
TF2 CHAMP
Team Enigma
QFT
All scripting does is allow customization. I use scripts because I'm uncomfortable using mwheel for jumping and pistoling. And I've yet to hear a good player seriously complain about scripts.
All scripting does is allow customization. I use scripts because I'm uncomfortable using mwheel for jumping and pistoling. And I've yet to hear a good player seriously complain about scripts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have a problem if you have a script which you press a trigger key and it empties the pistol clip as fast as possible (cyclic)
I understand scripting for bunny hopping is almost necessary, however my problem if the fact that bunny hopping is in at all, but that's an oversight of the engine physics when it was made, so arguing about that for NS1 doesn't mean much
I understand scripting for bunny hopping is almost necessary, however my problem if the fact that bunny hopping is in at all, but that's an oversight of the engine physics when it was made, so arguing about that for NS1 doesn't mean much<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All scripting does for bunny hopping is make it so people who have no played the game forever can bunnyhop. I can bunnyhop using my shift key perfectly fine, heck, even after not playing NS1 for a few years I have muscle memory of bunnyhopping. This provides an example of what scripts should do: they should help bridge the new -> intermediate player gap, these don't impact gameplay so much as create a convenient environment. The problems with script is that it can have unintended consequences. I remember using _special scripts a lot when they were still in the game, they improved any players ability to play the game significantly and that is why they were a problem.
All these haxkiddies will say : "it's legal dude !" as long as no official forbid it and as long it's technically possible. "Legal"... for a game... it makes me laugh.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you might have some misconceptions about what is considered legal and what isn't.
"strange (over/under)rates settings"-I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to, but most competitive matches have a server plugin that forbids certain rate settings and won't let you change them in game.
"sprite replacement (skinning)"-Sprite replacement and skinning are two completely different things. Sprite replacement is stuff like your crosshair(legal), and the icons on the screen(also legal). Skinning is changing the skins on the player models(ie, pink skulks), and is blocked by mp_consistency 1
"player models with a big sign above the head (i'm here!)"-These are also blocked by mp_consistency 1
"wallhax"-Hacks are illegal and supposedly blocked by VAC.
"third party program suite"-Hacks are illegal. You might also be thinking of macros. Those aren't allowed either.
"script"-3jump script(which really should just be made part of the game) and pistol script. Legal unless you play on an mp_blockscripts 1 server(which, unfortunately, most pubs are nowdays) See rest of thread for discussion on that
"All these haxkiddies will say : "it's legal dude !" as long as no official forbid it and as long it's technically possible. "Legal"... for a game... it makes me laugh."
-I haven't seen any haxkiddies saying "it's legal dude !", probably because most of this stuff isn't.
Not sure why this topic got necro'd, but I think scripts do the opposite of bridge the new->intermediate gap. Most gamers don't want to have to set up series of scripts to be able to play on a server. It's okay at high levels where people want to use every advantage, but scripting isn't really intuitive until you all ready know the game some, and that's assuming you know scripting. I agree with the rest of your post.
Ok you re good, i'm good, everybody is good... nt! erase that, "so fraking damn good at the game".
<img src="http://faust.club.fr/post_forums/ns/score.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
What i want say is : Ok we're damn good at the game. But think about other players who are not and / Or just got the game out of the box.
They log; they see the bloodshed, they logout and "let it go". what did they see ? Guys who are doing the job well without any help exept from their hands ? Or did they see something else that they don't understand yet ?
Ok at some point a player gets better but they will ask themselves : "How did he do that ?"
Will they be tempted to install things (because the game allows it) or to progress in "hand and eye coordination" ? I think that they most likely choose the fist option because everybody know that HL1 and HL²(S) is too much opened... i would say "WIDE". And it won't be difficult for them to get information. At least for the simple things.
<b>BUT!!!!</b> if the game was not so bound to frag count, and 'macho' way of thinking; would it be better or not? I mean; if you don't need it why using it ? I never seen a solo-frag-you-in-the-air action outrank a teamwork action. No doubt, (NS) teamwork is everything.
In order to get rid of this kind of behavior:
-You can make a good game that will not be bound to the frag count only. The more the game has goals other than shooting at enemy the better it is.
-You can make a crap game like any game we see nowdays.
I guess the second option isn't what the devs want. But for know they didn't answer that question.
What i wish for is
-a game that allows player to have a good experience from redifining keys to graphics, action blah blah.
-a game that is interesting in a way you don't need cheats.
-a little bit of a "check client machine" stuff in order to discourage things like that.
In order to be precise and as it is not a scripting related thread only.
Here's what i think about different kind of 'things':
Couldn't include this in the post so <a href="http://faust.club.fr/post_forums/ns/ns_table.htm" target="_blank">Go here</a>
NB: don't bother MP about 'what it is exacly; this thing?" i won't give the trick.
Hive Sight = wall hack
Fade/jetpack = speed hacks
UWE could well take this approach again with NS2.
I can't wait to see the feature they build around aimbots <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/turret.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::sentry::" border="0" alt="turret.gif" />
Golden said "good players"
FYI, CAPs Lock and Num Lock can be defined as scripts....just fyi
All my fade scripts work on BS=1 servers.......go figure <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
enigma for PRES
no. i'm so good at this game that you can't even <b>begin</b> to comprehend what i know/can do.
<!--quoteo(post=1677848:date=May 6 2008, 09:16 AM:name=UncleCrunch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(UncleCrunch @ May 6 2008, 09:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677848"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They log; they see the bloodshed, they logout and "let it go". what did they see ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
me
<!--quoteo(post=1677848:date=May 6 2008, 09:16 AM:name=UncleCrunch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(UncleCrunch @ May 6 2008, 09:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677848"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Guys who are doing the job well without any help exept from their hands ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes; all pubs are bs_1.
<!--quoteo(post=1677848:date=May 6 2008, 09:16 AM:name=UncleCrunch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(UncleCrunch @ May 6 2008, 09:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677848"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Will they be tempted to install things (because the game allows it) or to progress in "hand and eye coordination" ? I think that they most likely choose the fist option because everybody know that HL1 and HL²(S) is too much opened... i would say "WIDE". And it won't be difficult for them to get information. At least for the simple things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you don't "install" scripts. opening the developer console and typing
bind space "say <b>get a clue baddie</b>;exit"
is considered a scripted action.
--
teamwork and individual skill aren't mutually exclusive, which is part of the reason why NS1 is such an amazing game in the first place.
QFT
All scripts do if seperate casual gamers from hardcore gamers who sit on forums all day learning how to tweak settings and every little exploit. Personally I believe any 'skill' that can't be done out of the box should not be in the game.
This includes bunnyhopping which IS a movment exploit and requires knowlege of the game engine's unintended flaws. Scripting just aids this which makes requires either self knowlege on how to perforn a bhop and script or forum hopping to gain an advantage. Players shouldnt gain a speed advantage just because they know how to exploit an engine better.
This also includes pistol scripting which was at one point a major problem and advantage. It was posssible to drain all ten bullets into a target before the target ever felt the first bullet (split second lag and lag comp). This is not humanly possible and could only be done by binding a key to shoot multiple times with one click. A normal player without scripting knowlege is at a severe disadvantae.
Blinking and swiping, leaping and jumping, ect fall in a different catagory. They could be done by very plain key binding through the menu (or console which makes it scripting). For example I used right mouse as lastweopon and thats all i needed to quickly swith between two attacks. If anyone used more complex scripts that included any automated processes of weopon switching then I'd consider that an exploit thats unfair to new players who don't know scripting. The biggest difference though that this was plain key binding, one key for one action, that could be setup through the menu open to all unknowlegable players unlike pistol scripting which required knowing the syntax of scripting and knowing that you can bind multiple actions to one key.
Simply put, NO PLAYER good or bad should have to have any knowlege of gaming outside of the game they are playing such as scripting and exploits to compete.
There is at least a dozen spelling errors in that post FTW HAX ZOMG.
And lastly I always wanted to sneak on a friends computer and rebind /suicide to their jump key or something.