<div class="IPBDescription">Cloning a wooly mammoth? Learning to speak dolphin?</div>Anyone willing to bet the price of 1 barrel of crude oil that we won't have cloned a wooly mammoth by 2050? Same deal for learning to speak dolphin.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1672378:date=Mar 6 2008, 06:59 PM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Mar 6 2008, 06:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672378"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=102088&hl=" target="_blank">Probably</a>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Unfortunately I could not find stocks for cloning mammoths or speaking dolphin. The entries they have on there I find far less cool/more reasonable.
<!--quoteo(post=1672384:date=Mar 6 2008, 06:35 PM:name=moultano)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(moultano @ Mar 6 2008, 06:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672384"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Unfortunately I could not find stocks for cloning mammoths or speaking dolphin. The entries they have on there I find far less cool/more reasonable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't see why we'd clone a wooly mammoth. Imagine how much poop those things would make.
I hereby make a bet with moultano for the price of One(1) barrel of crude oil at market price on Jan 1, 2050. My position is that humans will have not created a living Woolly Mammoth using DNA extracted from Woolly Mammoth remains from the species Mammuthus primigenius on or before Jan 1, 2050 - a process henceforth known as "cloning". I will pay the aforementioned price on Jan 1, 2050 if humans clone a Woolly Mammoth on or before that date. Moultano agrees to pay me the aforementioned price if humans have not yet cloned a Woolly Mammoth by that date.
Stipulations - 1)Humans cannot receive assistance from extraterrestrial species. 2)The Woolly Mammoth specimen used for get DNA for the cloning must be at least 4000 years old. I dont' know where you'd get a fresh mammoth, but I'm just throwing that out there
That sound okay to you, moultano? Anything else you'd like to add?
P.S. - I won't take the bet on dolphin language. The idea of "language" is far too vague to codify.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->P.S. - I won't take the bet on dolphin language. The idea of "language" is far too vague to codify.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can codify it for you.
A dolphin can be instructed by a tester to observe a specific situation that is unknown to the tester and to communicate the specifics back. The entire communication can be verbal only, i.e. neither the dolphin or the human can see each other or influence each others environment in any non-verbal way.
Typically the tester would ask a question about a collection of objects. For example: Which of the shapes in the other chamber is coloured red? Or how how many objects are circular in shape?
<!--quoteo(post=1672413:date=Mar 7 2008, 01:58 AM:name=RuBy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(RuBy @ Mar 7 2008, 01:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672413"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about nuclear fusion? I hope we can see that in our lifetime.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1672413:date=Mar 7 2008, 07:58 AM:name=RuBy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(RuBy @ Mar 7 2008, 07:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672413"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about nuclear fusion? I hope we can see that in our lifetime.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ill take that bet!
okay, wait till 13:00 pm and look straight into the sun! Tada nuclear fusion. Now, where is my money (barrel of oil)?
"Nuclear fusion," for the purpose of a bet, could be defined as a viably energy-producing man-made fusion. Long term, to rule out hydrogen bombs. Basically, we'll want to be looking at a power plant that is capable of operating for long stretches of time without interruption (let's just say that one year of continued operation suffices for now), and which actually outputs energy.*
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->* I'm having trouble coming up with a good definition here. "Actually outputs energy" is far too vague. Can anyone here come up with a way to express this that won't get nitpicked apart?<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1672419:date=Mar 7 2008, 02:29 AM:name=SnappyCrunch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SnappyCrunch @ Mar 7 2008, 02:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672419"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'll take that bet!
I hereby make a bet with moultano for the price of One(1) barrel of crude oil at market price on Jan 1, 2050. My position is that humans will have not created a living Woolly Mammoth using DNA extracted from Woolly Mammoth remains from the species Mammuthus primigenius on or before Jan 1, 2050 - a process henceforth known as "cloning". I will pay the aforementioned price on Jan 1, 2050 if humans clone a Woolly Mammoth on or before that date. Moultano agrees to pay me the aforementioned price if humans have not yet cloned a Woolly Mammoth by that date.
Stipulations - 1)Humans cannot receive assistance from extraterrestrial species. 2)The Woolly Mammoth specimen used for get DNA for the cloning must be at least 4000 years old. I dont' know where you'd get a fresh mammoth, but I'm just throwing that out there That sound okay to you, moultano? Anything else you'd like to add? P.S. - I won't take the bet on dolphin language. The idea of "language" is far too vague to codify.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Do you think humans getting assistance from extraterrestrials is really likely enough to influence your willingness to bet? Hmm, I see an opportunity here to use an idiom for it's literal meaning. If aliens land, "all bets are off." <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Is it important to you that the DNA of the creature be entirely mammoth? The way I'd see this happening is by taking snippets of mammoth DNA that we are able to recover and filling in the gaps with elephant DNA, then using an elephant as a surrogate mother. Does this meet your criteria? <!--quoteo(post=1672430:date=Mar 7 2008, 05:37 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Mar 7 2008, 05:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672430"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can codify it for you.
A dolphin can be instructed by a tester to observe a specific situation that is unknown to the tester and to communicate the specifics back. The entire communication can be verbal only, i.e. neither the dolphin or the human can see each other or influence each others environment in any non-verbal way.
Typically the tester would ask a question about a collection of objects. For example: Which of the shapes in the other chamber is coloured red? Or how how many objects are circular in shape?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That seems a little too restrictive to me. First off, I'd say the human can use any means of communication at their disposal, ie, sounds played from a computer, etc. Who knows, maybe tail flapping is essential for making present participles, and can't be done verbally. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> In which case, I think it's fine to let the human simulate those as well as is possible. The key thing to differentiate it I think is that the dolphin can't have been trained to use human signals to communicate. Whatever the dolphin is doing has to be based on natural "dolphin culture."
<!--quoteo(post=1672527:date=Mar 7 2008, 06:26 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Mar 7 2008, 06:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672527"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seems suitable. I was fearing the whole "but it requires fuel" thingy, but this seems to avoid it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
we can make that explicit.
The net power gain must take into account the energy used in the production and shipment and harnessing (if necessary) of its fuel source but the energy contained within the fuel does not count against the gain.
The production and transport of the fuel only counts against the gain if that process is not natural (sun fusion does not count against the net value, however the energy used in creating and maintaining solar collectors does count)
<!--quoteo(post=1672528:date=Mar 7 2008, 06:27 PM:name=moultano)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(moultano @ Mar 7 2008, 06:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672528"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do you think humans getting assistance from extraterrestrials is really likely enough to influence your willingness to bet? Hmm, I see an opportunity here to use an idiom for it's literal meaning. If aliens land, "all bets are off." <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Is it important to you that the DNA of the creature be entirely mammoth? The way I'd see this happening is by taking snippets of mammoth DNA that we are able to recover and filling in the gaps with elephant DNA, then using an elephant as a surrogate mother. Does this meet your criteria?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm, I'm going to have to say it needs to be at least 75% Mammuthus primigenius DNA.
And I don't think finding intelligent extraterrestrials is likely in the next 43 years, but I don't want to be held to this bet if they land in 2048 and give us the secrets of everything. I tried to think of other external factors that might be unbalancing in this bet, but nothing else came to me.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1672548:date=Mar 7 2008, 09:15 PM:name=SnappyCrunch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SnappyCrunch @ Mar 7 2008, 09:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672548"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hmm, I'm going to have to say it needs to be at least 75% Mammuthus primigenius DNA.
And I don't think finding intelligent extraterrestrials is likely in the next 43 years, but I don't want to be held to this bet if they land in 2048 and give us the secrets of everything. I tried to think of other external factors that might be unbalancing in this bet, but nothing else came to me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmm this article suggests that mammoths may have been able to breed with asian elephants: <a href="http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/fit/appendix1.asp" target="_blank">http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/fit/appendix1.asp</a> Which means they where probably similar enough genetically that 75% is excessive. However, there's no way really to know at this point. I was going to suggest the amount of genetic difference between african and asian elephants as our threshold but I can't find a good resource for that. Here's an alternate criteria. We consider the creature to be a mammoth if it is unambiguously called a mammoth by a peer-reviewed scientific journal. Also, it must be woolly. Does that seem fair?
Also, I'd like to permit mastodons in this too. The technical hurdles are largely the same for both, and it might be pure chance as to which we find more intact dna of.
<!--quoteo(post=1672560:date=Mar 7 2008, 11:35 PM:name=moultano)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(moultano @ Mar 7 2008, 11:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672560"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hmm this article suggests that mammoths may have been able to breed with asian elephants: <a href="http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/fit/appendix1.asp" target="_blank">http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/fit/appendix1.asp</a> Which means they where probably similar enough genetically that 75% is excessive. However, there's no way really to know at this point. I was going to suggest the amount of genetic difference between african and asian elephants as our threshold but I can't find a good resource for that. Here's an alternate criteria. We consider the creature to be a mammoth if it is unambiguously called a mammoth by a peer-reviewed scientific journal. Also, it must be woolly. Does that seem fair?
Also, I'd like to permit mastodons in this too. The technical hurdles are largely the same for both, and it might be pure chance as to which we find more intact dna of.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mammuthus primigenius only, and you don't need to worry about finding lots of DNA, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woolly_mammoth" target="_blank">frozen carcasses</a> are almost common. And I accept the deciding criteria be that the animal is unambiguously called a member of the species Mammuthus primigenius by a peer-reviewed scientific journal.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1672566:date=Mar 8 2008, 02:14 AM:name=SnappyCrunch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SnappyCrunch @ Mar 8 2008, 02:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672566"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Mammuthus primigenius only, and you don't need to worry about finding lots of DNA, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woolly_mammoth" target="_blank">frozen carcasses</a> are almost common. And I accept the deciding criteria be that the animal is unambiguously called a member of the species Mammuthus primigenius by a peer-reviewed scientific journal.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Done. See you in 2050! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Comments
Unfortunately I could not find stocks for cloning mammoths or speaking dolphin. The entries they have on there I find far less cool/more reasonable.
I don't see why we'd clone a wooly mammoth. Imagine how much poop those things would make.
I hereby make a bet with moultano for the price of One(1) barrel of crude oil at market price on Jan 1, 2050.
My position is that humans will have not created a living Woolly Mammoth using DNA extracted from Woolly Mammoth remains from the species Mammuthus primigenius on or before Jan 1, 2050 - a process henceforth known as "cloning". I will pay the aforementioned price on Jan 1, 2050 if humans clone a Woolly Mammoth on or before that date. Moultano agrees to pay me the aforementioned price if humans have not yet cloned a Woolly Mammoth by that date.
Stipulations -
1)Humans cannot receive assistance from extraterrestrial species.
2)The Woolly Mammoth specimen used for get DNA for the cloning must be at least 4000 years old. I dont' know where you'd get a fresh mammoth, but I'm just throwing that out there
That sound okay to you, moultano? Anything else you'd like to add?
P.S. - I won't take the bet on dolphin language. The idea of "language" is far too vague to codify.
I can codify it for you.
A dolphin can be instructed by a tester to observe a specific situation that is unknown to the tester and to communicate the specifics back. The entire communication can be verbal only, i.e. neither the dolphin or the human can see each other or influence each others environment in any non-verbal way.
Typically the tester would ask a question about a collection of objects. For example: Which of the shapes in the other chamber is coloured red? Or how how many objects are circular in shape?
That WAS a joke, right?
Ill take that bet!
okay, wait till 13:00 pm and look straight into the sun!
Tada nuclear fusion. Now, where is my money (barrel of oil)?
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=103783&hl=" target="_blank">IEC Fusion</a>
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->* I'm having trouble coming up with a good definition here. "Actually outputs energy" is far too vague. Can anyone here come up with a way to express this that won't get nitpicked apart?<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
I hereby make a bet with moultano for the price of One(1) barrel of crude oil at market price on Jan 1, 2050.
My position is that humans will have not created a living Woolly Mammoth using DNA extracted from Woolly Mammoth remains from the species Mammuthus primigenius on or before Jan 1, 2050 - a process henceforth known as "cloning". I will pay the aforementioned price on Jan 1, 2050 if humans clone a Woolly Mammoth on or before that date. Moultano agrees to pay me the aforementioned price if humans have not yet cloned a Woolly Mammoth by that date.
Stipulations -
1)Humans cannot receive assistance from extraterrestrial species.
2)The Woolly Mammoth specimen used for get DNA for the cloning must be at least 4000 years old. I dont' know where you'd get a fresh mammoth, but I'm just throwing that out there
That sound okay to you, moultano? Anything else you'd like to add?
P.S. - I won't take the bet on dolphin language. The idea of "language" is far too vague to codify.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you think humans getting assistance from extraterrestrials is really likely enough to influence your willingness to bet? Hmm, I see an opportunity here to use an idiom for it's literal meaning. If aliens land, "all bets are off." <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Is it important to you that the DNA of the creature be entirely mammoth? The way I'd see this happening is by taking snippets of mammoth DNA that we are able to recover and filling in the gaps with elephant DNA, then using an elephant as a surrogate mother. Does this meet your criteria?
<!--quoteo(post=1672430:date=Mar 7 2008, 05:37 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Mar 7 2008, 05:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672430"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can codify it for you.
A dolphin can be instructed by a tester to observe a specific situation that is unknown to the tester and to communicate the specifics back. The entire communication can be verbal only, i.e. neither the dolphin or the human can see each other or influence each others environment in any non-verbal way.
Typically the tester would ask a question about a collection of objects. For example: Which of the shapes in the other chamber is coloured red? Or how how many objects are circular in shape?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That seems a little too restrictive to me. First off, I'd say the human can use any means of communication at their disposal, ie, sounds played from a computer, etc. Who knows, maybe tail flapping is essential for making present participles, and can't be done verbally. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> In which case, I think it's fine to let the human simulate those as well as is possible. The key thing to differentiate it I think is that the dolphin can't have been trained to use human signals to communicate. Whatever the dolphin is doing has to be based on natural "dolphin culture."
we can make that explicit.
The net power gain must take into account the energy used in the production and shipment and harnessing (if necessary) of its fuel source but the energy contained within the fuel does not count against the gain.
The production and transport of the fuel only counts against the gain if that process is not natural (sun fusion does not count against the net value, however the energy used in creating and maintaining solar collectors does count)
Is it important to you that the DNA of the creature be entirely mammoth? The way I'd see this happening is by taking snippets of mammoth DNA that we are able to recover and filling in the gaps with elephant DNA, then using an elephant as a surrogate mother. Does this meet your criteria?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm, I'm going to have to say it needs to be at least 75% Mammuthus primigenius DNA.
And I don't think finding intelligent extraterrestrials is likely in the next 43 years, but I don't want to be held to this bet if they land in 2048 and give us the secrets of everything. I tried to think of other external factors that might be unbalancing in this bet, but nothing else came to me.
And I don't think finding intelligent extraterrestrials is likely in the next 43 years, but I don't want to be held to this bet if they land in 2048 and give us the secrets of everything. I tried to think of other external factors that might be unbalancing in this bet, but nothing else came to me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm this article suggests that mammoths may have been able to breed with asian elephants:
<a href="http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/fit/appendix1.asp" target="_blank">http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/fit/appendix1.asp</a>
Which means they where probably similar enough genetically that 75% is excessive. However, there's no way really to know at this point. I was going to suggest the amount of genetic difference between african and asian elephants as our threshold but I can't find a good resource for that. Here's an alternate criteria. We consider the creature to be a mammoth if it is unambiguously called a mammoth by a peer-reviewed scientific journal. Also, it must be woolly. Does that seem fair?
Also, I'd like to permit mastodons in this too. The technical hurdles are largely the same for both, and it might be pure chance as to which we find more intact dna of.
<a href="http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/fit/appendix1.asp" target="_blank">http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/fit/appendix1.asp</a>
Which means they where probably similar enough genetically that 75% is excessive. However, there's no way really to know at this point. I was going to suggest the amount of genetic difference between african and asian elephants as our threshold but I can't find a good resource for that. Here's an alternate criteria. We consider the creature to be a mammoth if it is unambiguously called a mammoth by a peer-reviewed scientific journal. Also, it must be woolly. Does that seem fair?
Also, I'd like to permit mastodons in this too. The technical hurdles are largely the same for both, and it might be pure chance as to which we find more intact dna of.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mammuthus primigenius only, and you don't need to worry about finding lots of DNA, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woolly_mammoth" target="_blank">frozen carcasses</a> are almost common. And I accept the deciding criteria be that the animal is unambiguously called a member of the species Mammuthus primigenius by a peer-reviewed scientific journal.
Done. See you in 2050! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />