Marines VS Marines or Aliens VS Aliens
StarCraft
Join Date: 2008-02-19 Member: 63686Members
Join Date: 2008-02-19 Member: 63686Members
<div class="IPBDescription">how it could be done</div>I was thinking how we can implement fight Marines VS Marines or Aliens VS Aliens on already existing regular maps. Wouldn't that be a QL fights! (marines vs marines would be good for beginners, or for teams who rally like one race)
I thought that i could be done if two opposing teams would start on some random out of 4 starting locations (marine start + 3 hives)
On marines VS marines ( <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/marine.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::marine::" border="0" alt="marine.gif" /> VS <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tsa.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::tsa::" border="0" alt="tsa.gif" />): teams could start by getting their starting command-console even on places where hives originally should be.
On aliens VS aliens (<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skulk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::skulk::" border="0" alt="skulk.gif" /> VS <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/pudgy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::gorge::" border="0" alt="pudgy.gif" />): on the original marine-start location, another hive should appear, so opposing teams will fight for remaining two hives on the map. Making it possible for one team to have all 3 hives while other team will still have one (enough for them to survive)
Of course this may cause for some things to change in NS rules when entering these mods.
I thought that i could be done if two opposing teams would start on some random out of 4 starting locations (marine start + 3 hives)
On marines VS marines ( <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/marine.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::marine::" border="0" alt="marine.gif" /> VS <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tsa.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::tsa::" border="0" alt="tsa.gif" />): teams could start by getting their starting command-console even on places where hives originally should be.
On aliens VS aliens (<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skulk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::skulk::" border="0" alt="skulk.gif" /> VS <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/pudgy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::gorge::" border="0" alt="pudgy.gif" />): on the original marine-start location, another hive should appear, so opposing teams will fight for remaining two hives on the map. Making it possible for one team to have all 3 hives while other team will still have one (enough for them to survive)
Of course this may cause for some things to change in NS rules when entering these mods.
Comments
The problem with conversion, though, is the basic structuring of the map was designed for MvA. I mean, lots of vents usually near the Hives, more camping and cramped quarters. Usually no good siege spot for the NS. Granted there are exceptions, but fundamentally the map design is a bit off. Conversion makes life easier, but they also usually unbalance the map unless each team is forced to start on the two "edge" hives. However, on maps such as Eclipse, the composition of each Hive's location is extremely different.
Also, you tend to run into the issue that the two sides are balanced against each other. For example, HMGs are heavy stream of bullets designed to take down an Onos who has a base 1300 HP plus more with carapace. Compare that with a HA of 350HP and you see the problem. One way to handle this is individually re-tweak the weapons when we enter these new modes. Or mines and how they can one-shot an unsuspecting Skulk are weaker against a Marine who can call for a med pack, blow up another, rinse and repeat and clear the mine field.
Anyways, if they built in the modes or made it easier for us to edit and re-balance the modes, that'd be awesome.
They are designed for aliens vs marines, but not every map was. I remember a few different extra maps that were made just for MvM, and they were loads of fun. Just need mappers to make more again!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, you tend to run into the issue that the two sides are balanced against each other.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Never once saw this as a problem playing NS1. Different sides won and there were many heated battles. It may seem boring because there is less variety, but I thought it was a blast.
I didn't know that. Well, this is a chance to make them official mods in NS_2, and to balance them.
The only problem i see, is that maybe this way there would be too many Marines vs Marines matches, which may result in loosing the soul of natural selection game.
On the other hand, this may bring greater popularity to the game, since it is hard for new players to understand the way aliens work. (i had to explain a lot via messengers, and those things took me a lot of time)
The solution may be to make (something like) 3x MvsM maps, 3x AvsA maps, and 10+ NS classic maps.
out-of-the-topic-comment:
I think that there is no need for too many maps to actually exist in NS. You need to learn every map very well to play normally, and if there is too many games created with too many different maps, it is hard (for beginners) to fit in.
There is no need, since every match is COMPLETELY different from any other match on the same map.
I am talking a lot about beginners, since i lost about dozen potential players, coz they found NS (especially aliens) way too complex for them. And you have to learn a maps and tunnels... and learn it fast. Otherwise "you are a n00b" which is humiliating and unpleasant for everyone.
<!--quoteo(post=1671006:date=Feb 20 2008, 04:20 AM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(spellman23 @ Feb 20 2008, 04:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1671006"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, you tend to run into the issue that the two sides are balanced against each other. For example, HMGs are heavy stream of bullets designed to take down an Onos who has a base 1300 HP plus more with carapace. Compare that with a HA of 350HP and you see the problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
- HMG-s are also made for destroying structures with huge amount of health. Onos is large and easy target. Additionally he have to run in close range. Marines (VS Marines) can take cover and still shoot at you. So, maybe this is not that much of a problem.
- you shouldn't be able to devour onos, and any other players with more than 200HP (for eg.)
- also, maybe onoses should be immune to "stomp" (or not?)
- umbra could protect against close range, why not?
Well, all that should be tested. But i think that it CAN be balanced.
- you shouldn't be able to devour onos, and any other players with more than 200HP (for eg.)
- also, maybe onoses should be immune to "stomp" (or not?)
- umbra could protect against close range, why not?
Well, all that should be tested. But i think that it CAN be balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, it can. It just isn't as it is. I've played a few MvM matches where essentially several of your usual tactics are thrown out the window. For example, both sides only got JPs, not HA, and spammed HMGs and Shotguns, never GL.
And while it can help introduce new players, they still will have to re-learn the gameplay when they transition to another game. Combat and Classic have been notoriously blamed for splitting the community since some players only play Combat and never play Classic and vice versa. It's a bit of a rough transition because of the uniqueness of each side and the unique elements in each game mode. Adding more modes won't help in this area.
No, they aren't.
HMGs cause only 50% damage on structures to increase necessarity of mixed weapons in the mid/end game, to give every weapon a purpose and to make the good ol'fashioned jp-hmg rush less effective.
@Topic: I think lua-mods will take care of these gameplay modes and will probably be able to change everything necessary to make it balanced and fun(not to everyone though <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />).
<b>why</b> and <i>why</i>?
Not saying it won't happen or it should not happen, but it will probably be a community effort <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> It would be nice if people would create maps for this "mod of a mod" and balance them accordingly. I called it a hack and thats not an instult btw! It's just that in it's current state it is "hacking" or rather ripenting the maps to allow MvM and AvA using ripent.exe.
Furthermore I'm not against this type of mode, I'm just saying that it most likely won't have "official" support with the devs being to busy on vanilla NS2 and don't have the resources to get all these types of gameplay into the mix, while keeping an eye on their resource system and balancing them accordingly etc... (LOTS of work). But is that really needed. With the community creating their own content. which is another cornerstone of this very game. I just hope that vanilla server will still exist with these new posibilities to mod NS2 <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
I agree with that, but I think the dev would implement it if they had the funds and backstory wouldn't be any kind of barrier.
In a perfect world, we would all be playing NS2 right with every content anyone ever wanted. The perfect game, if there is even such a thing <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
If we would all be that pesimistic, than nothing will ever be made, and we wouldnt have anything to play.
AvA or MvM mods is absolutely not impossible thing to implement. Since NS2 is new project/expension, it should at least think about it in advance and "leave this option open". Story can be also modified/expended. (least of a problem)
The truth is, MvM "mods" wold brint to the popularity of the NS game.
It will be impossible to implement it if developers say its impossible. The only thing we should say here is weather or not we would <b>like</b> to see those mods in NS2. If many people does, than thats not the thing the developers should ignore.
Add to the "leave option open" list server-side AI bots (including commander hooks) and you'll make me a happy gamer.
To the Devs: check out the popular mod plugins to get an idea of what people will probably want to re-implement on NS2, such as Comm Chat Color or extra levels (just give us a variable of max levels for Combat and we'll add the other purchases/upgrades).
I didn't really explain myself clearly. I don't think backstory would ever stop the devs from creating MvM or AvA and the only thing that would is money. I don't think it's high on their priorities and we won't see it in NS2(at least not right away).
You did? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
/me shudders at memory of the crappy quality of MvM maps, recieving the never ending GL spam-o-death when you are loosing, how only the leading few players enjoyed the game while the rest of the server got sick of being killed exponentially due to upgrades going off the chart, pistol sniper spam FTL, server crashes anyone?, unstoppable uber HA or JP,...
Here let me solve this for you:
DestroyMap(MvM_boobookitties_v9w34738965347... .bsp)
DestroyMap(KewlLavaMvMmap.bsp)
DestroyMap(lolzAnotherCrappySpaceFallMapVariant.bsp)
oh yeah forgot one
DestroyIdea(ThisIdea)
Could it be turned into a good idea? Perhaps, but I like my lottery odds better. It was something which was an interesting pluggin, but had seriously design flaws both in the maps, balance, and even fitting in with the consistency of NS's theme and "plot" to a wider degree.
Sorry, <b>vote <!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->no<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>
Unlimited Variations
Flexible game rules and scripting allow you to create your own unique scenarios like "Colonist Rescue", "Alien vs. Alien" or anything else you can dream up. Free automatic updates keep the game fresh by adding new levels and abilities.
Don't forget skulk DM would be pretty weird. Oh and the problems you will have with fades hitting lerks in flight and blink at the same time.
Unlimited Variations
Flexible game rules and scripting allow you to create your own unique scenarios like "Colonist Rescue", "Alien vs. Alien" or anything else you can dream up. Free automatic updates keep the game fresh by adding new levels and abilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good find. It's nice to know I didn't just make that blog post up in my head. Basically, the dev team isn't making that as a mode, but will leave it up to the players to mod it.
You're right it's the about page. Regardless I read it on this site and didn't make it up in my head. No need to be pedantic.
You make a fair point, but in equal fairness I think you misunderstand where I'm comming from. Allow me to explain. I would <i>LOVE</i> to be proved wrong -- <i>especially </i>if it could fit into the backstory -- but the past track record hasn't been positive at all. This past doesn't encourage that the vast quantity of time undergoing the software development process on including would be worth the time at all. But then again you can't innovate without taking risk, so it's a balance that could go both ways.
Given your comment, I was thinking of a possible means for this to fit into the backstory without breaking continuity and perhaps actually creating a more meanful backstory at the same time...
<!--fonto:Times New Roman--><span style="font-family:Times New Roman"><!--/fonto--><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--> The Kharaa have always been presented as unilateral unstoppable evil force and the marine have always been the "good guys" -- the victims of this horrific infestation. Have none of you thought of this the other way around? Granted a few authors of our backstory surround current maps such as ns_origin hinted that it may have been humanity which awoke and enraged the violent defensive reflex of the Kharaa hivemind collective, but by and large this concept seems forgotten by the community.
In the concept artwork we have been getting updates on and from leaders in the community we have been getting an increasing consensus that the marines are insectoid-like in many ways with exoskeletons of technology versus the natualizing, almost supernatural adaptive abilties and animal-fungi-like properties of the Kharaa. Perhaps it is plausable to say that the multiplayer battle is an allegory of nature vs. technology? I am reminded of other such conflicts played out in the plots of greater works of fiction such as the animated film, <i>Princess Mononoke</i>. If you have seen the film then you would understand what I'm talking about when I say the TSA's marines are related to the role like Irontown's citizens and the Kharaa are much like the beasts of the forest.
How does that relate back to AvA and/or MvM fitting into the backstory of NS? My idea: Why not combine elements wherein things are not binary justice but shades of gray with alliances and defections from each race. In otherwords, good marines & aliens fighting united against evil aliens or cruel marines. Why limit it to AvA & MvM? Why not (A+M vs. M) or (A+M vs. A) or even (A+M vs. A+M)? What if that was something the engine supported and was map enabled. (allowing the <b>mapper</b> to decided what fits, not just the developer)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--fontc--></span><!--/fontc-->
What do you think?