Commanding
spellman23
NS1 Theorycraft Expert Join Date: 2007-05-17 Member: 60920Members
NS1 Theorycraft Expert Join Date: 2007-05-17 Member: 60920Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Where it is and where it could go</div>Since Commanders are such a huge component in any FPS/RTS game, I'd like to take a moment to evaluate the role.
First observation is the importance. For NS1, the Commander is very hands-on, dropping weapons, buildings, tech managing, providing in-field support with meds, and even has a few direct features like Scanner Sweep. Another game, Empires (http://www.empiresmod.com/), utilizes its Commander a bit more laid back. Only concerned with buildings, tech, and vehicle construction rights, the role is much less stressful and gives more power to the players.
On a much more extreme case, Battlefield 2 (BF2) has a commander which provides only waypoints and support like artillery. However, in all, the Commander is the one responsible for giving orders and a strategy to the team, helping to direct the army. But, in each instance, we see varying levels of direct involvement of the Commander to the field.
Now, what do we take form this? Well, perhaps the biggest issue is making sure the Commander has fun playing as the Commander. Sure there's the reward of leading your team to victory, but too many of my friends have tried NS1 Commanding only to be turned off by the constant demands and micro-managing the support for each team member. Whereas I have people lining up to help Command in Empires because the role basically boils down to tech and direction of your team. Granted, Empires also has a bit more complex tech tree, and often you drop more buildings as the Commander, but it's a huge load off their minds to not have to drop ammo and meds while doing everything else.
So, the key is to not overwhelm the Commander. But, you can't make it so the Commander is just laid back and doesn't partake in any heart pounding action like their grunts.
Now, let's talk about what the Commander can and can't do. After all, this is a topic for NS2, currently in development.
Firstly, the Commander's premier goal is to help shape the strategy of the team, and leave implementation (tactics) to the players. To do this, giving waypoints, communicating the plan, providing tech and support logically follow. The depth of support is variable depending on how demanding you want to be on the Comm.
In recent news, the idea of unlocking stuff and letting players buy it has come up. In Empires, they use a similar system with vehicles. The Commander can adjust vehicle construction rights to individual players, but often simply turn on or off vehicle building in general. Players get to completely modify their vehicle to their liking with the available tech and, of course, money available. This gives alot of control to the player, and gives the commander the role of just unlocking that stuff. Overall, it works well. However, these are vehicles. Distinct slots, lots of combinations, of course player customization is the say to go. However, if applied to NS1 tech, it's a generally poor idea. Yes, it does cut down on whining for weapons and load on the Comm, but selecting your best soldier to get the Shotgun is sometimes critical for NS. While a player buy system can streamline some things (be sure to give the Commander an option to turn off weapon buying in this implementation), it causes some very interesting issues. Also, there's not enough options to make it worthwhile. In Empires it's a necessity due to all the possible layouts depending on how you want to play. For NS, you've got 3 options (at least in NS1), big whoop.
However, a nice idea I've seen is to allow modifications on weapons. Costs a bit extra, but can add special features, like larger clip, flashlight, laser pointer, etc. That way, we give players more customization, but we don't have to have 10-20 different guns to make the player buy system worth it. Just maybe 4 or 5 at the most, but with 3 possible add-ons. In this system, the Commander could dopr and players customize, or purchasing customized guns straight by the player could work too.
What about Commander and Playing field interaction? Currently, the Commander has Scanner Sweep, Beacon, and dropping items/buildings. Some other ideas ave been AoE heals and damage over time effects to get added in.
A game that has alot of commander to game interaction is Zombie Master. Each map actually has individual triggerable events that cost resources. Also, there are some universal ones that the Zombie Master always has, such as causing a shockwave to cause loose items to go flying around the map.
Personally, I like having a few abilities, I guess spells are a close approximation. However, they need to be limited and support in nature. Commanders are there to support, not get into the fight. Even if we stay with just Scanner Sweep and Beacon, I'd be happy. They seem like natural things a Commander would be able to do, and they don't stress the economy nor the Commander's attention too much. Creating a random burst of electricity is kinda plausible, but starts to feel supernatural and not in the current NS style. As it is, NS Commanders can operate doors and have alot to manage, and adding a few "spells" just might overload them. Cool factor doesn't always mean good game factor.
The Commander interface is also another fun thing. Right now, the positional button layout is the best thing that's ever happened to an RTS format, in my opinion. It's quick, easy to learn, and efficient. Overall, I don't have much to complain about the current NS Commander interface, except a few bugs here and there. The key thing, though, is no matter what, being able to quickly and easily communicate information and allow the Commander to easily manage their team. On thing that's spoiled me rotten is strategic zoom in Supreme Commander. Being able to flawlessly zoom between tactical (see individuals) to strategic (whole map) and everywhere inbetween is great. It lets you give large, broad commands, and then quickly be able to switch and give individual adjustments. It's a beautiful, beautiful thing, but perhaps not great for the NS style. Why? Because the Commander should be constrained, in some sense, to a limited view. The minimap gives a broad view, but an imperfect one, while the individual one manages players. I would, however, like the view to be just a tad further back. The biggest feature to add, though would be the ability to give waypoints / notifications on the minimap itself. Like WarCraft 3, left-clicking a location on the minimap moves the units there (albeit not very accurately), and alt-clicking pings the map for other players to see. It's great to really quickly give waypoints without having to jump to the location on the map, give the waypoint, then jump back to what you were doing. Definitely a must.
[EDIT:]
Now, the idea of an Alien commander has come up. My first impression is this could be a very bad thing. For one, we already tend to have a shortage of good and willing Commanders. Creating a whole new Commanding style to learn and master would simply accentuate this problem. Secondly, the lack of an Alien Commander was a highlight to NS1, the dichotomy between Marines and Aliens accentuated. One was more team based and unified by the commander's directions, the other more individualized, but optimized by grass root organization.
But, there could be very good things come out of this as well. A bit more direction for the Aliens, different way to help guide or unlock stuff.
The way I see it, though, the Alien Commander should never be as central as the Marine Commander. They are two completely different play styles, and I think the differences and unique races is what makes NS1 shine. However, having the Alien Commander be more of a temporary position (accentuating) would be welcome to me. Perhaps only certain unique, but very situational, abilities can be unlocked and dropped from the Alien Commander. Perhaps you can hop in, activate some durational ability, then hop out. What I don't want to see is the Alien Commander being essentially the Marine Commander Counterpart, teching and dropping buildings for the team. Even if it does become a more permanent role for the whole round, it should remain supportive.
[/EDIT]
Anyways, that's it for my ramblings. No matter what, I hope you guys make NS2 the best game it can be.
First observation is the importance. For NS1, the Commander is very hands-on, dropping weapons, buildings, tech managing, providing in-field support with meds, and even has a few direct features like Scanner Sweep. Another game, Empires (http://www.empiresmod.com/), utilizes its Commander a bit more laid back. Only concerned with buildings, tech, and vehicle construction rights, the role is much less stressful and gives more power to the players.
On a much more extreme case, Battlefield 2 (BF2) has a commander which provides only waypoints and support like artillery. However, in all, the Commander is the one responsible for giving orders and a strategy to the team, helping to direct the army. But, in each instance, we see varying levels of direct involvement of the Commander to the field.
Now, what do we take form this? Well, perhaps the biggest issue is making sure the Commander has fun playing as the Commander. Sure there's the reward of leading your team to victory, but too many of my friends have tried NS1 Commanding only to be turned off by the constant demands and micro-managing the support for each team member. Whereas I have people lining up to help Command in Empires because the role basically boils down to tech and direction of your team. Granted, Empires also has a bit more complex tech tree, and often you drop more buildings as the Commander, but it's a huge load off their minds to not have to drop ammo and meds while doing everything else.
So, the key is to not overwhelm the Commander. But, you can't make it so the Commander is just laid back and doesn't partake in any heart pounding action like their grunts.
Now, let's talk about what the Commander can and can't do. After all, this is a topic for NS2, currently in development.
Firstly, the Commander's premier goal is to help shape the strategy of the team, and leave implementation (tactics) to the players. To do this, giving waypoints, communicating the plan, providing tech and support logically follow. The depth of support is variable depending on how demanding you want to be on the Comm.
In recent news, the idea of unlocking stuff and letting players buy it has come up. In Empires, they use a similar system with vehicles. The Commander can adjust vehicle construction rights to individual players, but often simply turn on or off vehicle building in general. Players get to completely modify their vehicle to their liking with the available tech and, of course, money available. This gives alot of control to the player, and gives the commander the role of just unlocking that stuff. Overall, it works well. However, these are vehicles. Distinct slots, lots of combinations, of course player customization is the say to go. However, if applied to NS1 tech, it's a generally poor idea. Yes, it does cut down on whining for weapons and load on the Comm, but selecting your best soldier to get the Shotgun is sometimes critical for NS. While a player buy system can streamline some things (be sure to give the Commander an option to turn off weapon buying in this implementation), it causes some very interesting issues. Also, there's not enough options to make it worthwhile. In Empires it's a necessity due to all the possible layouts depending on how you want to play. For NS, you've got 3 options (at least in NS1), big whoop.
However, a nice idea I've seen is to allow modifications on weapons. Costs a bit extra, but can add special features, like larger clip, flashlight, laser pointer, etc. That way, we give players more customization, but we don't have to have 10-20 different guns to make the player buy system worth it. Just maybe 4 or 5 at the most, but with 3 possible add-ons. In this system, the Commander could dopr and players customize, or purchasing customized guns straight by the player could work too.
What about Commander and Playing field interaction? Currently, the Commander has Scanner Sweep, Beacon, and dropping items/buildings. Some other ideas ave been AoE heals and damage over time effects to get added in.
A game that has alot of commander to game interaction is Zombie Master. Each map actually has individual triggerable events that cost resources. Also, there are some universal ones that the Zombie Master always has, such as causing a shockwave to cause loose items to go flying around the map.
Personally, I like having a few abilities, I guess spells are a close approximation. However, they need to be limited and support in nature. Commanders are there to support, not get into the fight. Even if we stay with just Scanner Sweep and Beacon, I'd be happy. They seem like natural things a Commander would be able to do, and they don't stress the economy nor the Commander's attention too much. Creating a random burst of electricity is kinda plausible, but starts to feel supernatural and not in the current NS style. As it is, NS Commanders can operate doors and have alot to manage, and adding a few "spells" just might overload them. Cool factor doesn't always mean good game factor.
The Commander interface is also another fun thing. Right now, the positional button layout is the best thing that's ever happened to an RTS format, in my opinion. It's quick, easy to learn, and efficient. Overall, I don't have much to complain about the current NS Commander interface, except a few bugs here and there. The key thing, though, is no matter what, being able to quickly and easily communicate information and allow the Commander to easily manage their team. On thing that's spoiled me rotten is strategic zoom in Supreme Commander. Being able to flawlessly zoom between tactical (see individuals) to strategic (whole map) and everywhere inbetween is great. It lets you give large, broad commands, and then quickly be able to switch and give individual adjustments. It's a beautiful, beautiful thing, but perhaps not great for the NS style. Why? Because the Commander should be constrained, in some sense, to a limited view. The minimap gives a broad view, but an imperfect one, while the individual one manages players. I would, however, like the view to be just a tad further back. The biggest feature to add, though would be the ability to give waypoints / notifications on the minimap itself. Like WarCraft 3, left-clicking a location on the minimap moves the units there (albeit not very accurately), and alt-clicking pings the map for other players to see. It's great to really quickly give waypoints without having to jump to the location on the map, give the waypoint, then jump back to what you were doing. Definitely a must.
[EDIT:]
Now, the idea of an Alien commander has come up. My first impression is this could be a very bad thing. For one, we already tend to have a shortage of good and willing Commanders. Creating a whole new Commanding style to learn and master would simply accentuate this problem. Secondly, the lack of an Alien Commander was a highlight to NS1, the dichotomy between Marines and Aliens accentuated. One was more team based and unified by the commander's directions, the other more individualized, but optimized by grass root organization.
But, there could be very good things come out of this as well. A bit more direction for the Aliens, different way to help guide or unlock stuff.
The way I see it, though, the Alien Commander should never be as central as the Marine Commander. They are two completely different play styles, and I think the differences and unique races is what makes NS1 shine. However, having the Alien Commander be more of a temporary position (accentuating) would be welcome to me. Perhaps only certain unique, but very situational, abilities can be unlocked and dropped from the Alien Commander. Perhaps you can hop in, activate some durational ability, then hop out. What I don't want to see is the Alien Commander being essentially the Marine Commander Counterpart, teching and dropping buildings for the team. Even if it does become a more permanent role for the whole round, it should remain supportive.
[/EDIT]
Anyways, that's it for my ramblings. No matter what, I hope you guys make NS2 the best game it can be.
Comments
Huh. Weird. I'm always checking on everyone and refining the strat and dropping buildings/weapons.
Perhaps one of the best things about NS is in a good game, the Commander never gets bored. Or if you're getting bored, chances are you're not doing more. You can always, and I mean always, be re-evaluating stuff and directing the troops at the very least. And of course there's the times you need to babysit the Marines and make sure they live and carry out the job (like in Hive Sieges).
My suggestion for this topic (i'd link the large post i made elsewhere but im lazy right now) is to employ some sort of toggled auto-med function. Basically like a really slow Resupply. It would take away the comm's control (by automatically deducting res) and from the player's support (set it to a long enough delay that a good 'manual' comm would always be infinitely better than the auto-med). But at least new comm's could turn it on for their first couple of matches while they learn the ropes. It could even be on by default.
Another suggestion i had was for a tech-ticker. Also toggled on and off, this could follow a basic tech tree, and keep aware of RT count. That way, this ticker could tell the comm that he should probably drop an arms lab next (since he just got the armory up), and when to push for res nodes or hives. You could script it like such; if you're below four nodes, you should be expanding; if you're below three nodes, you should be focusing on capping. But, if its more than 5 minutes into the game and you don't have troops or structures in any hive locations, you should be focusing on taking a hive, etc. It would be a mild AI, but it could drastically ease the learning curve.
I'm not sure about an AI as much as a kind of Suggestion Script to help the Comm. Kinda like in Civ4 where you get a few recommendations to help improve in the areas where you're lacking. It sounds like that's what you're talking about, I'm just making sure it's gelling with what I have in my mind.
Auto-meds would indeed be pretty cool. And majorly needed to be toggleable. Definitely implement it slow and only if below certain health. Sometimes it's not worth dropping a med pack for that 10 HP. And if the comm wants a bunch of med packs on the ground as the Marine gets bit, they should do it themselves.
Yeah, like in BF2 you get the intrusive Bush-esque voice-over to help you, and it's just plain annoying and hard to ignore, at least the first few times. So it's better and worse than the pop-ups.
<!--quoteo(post=1669908:date=Feb 8 2008, 02:44 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(spellman23 @ Feb 8 2008, 02:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1669908"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure about an AI as much as a kind of Suggestion Script to help the Comm. Kinda like in Civ4 where you get a few recommendations to help improve in the areas where you're lacking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds good to me.
As for medding, hmm, it's a bit tedious, so auto- would definitely help.
But then people have suggested area-effect medical aid as one of the commander 'spells' (they seriously need to come up with a better name for this).