<!--quoteo(post=1661268:date=Nov 20 2007, 03:39 AM:name=naggy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naggy @ Nov 20 2007, 03:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1661268"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's hard to have something thats appealing at first and still appealing 4-5 years onwards, especially when you have competition (*cough*source engine/mmorpg's) and people obsessed with their 'leet skillz'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i'd have to say combat definately gets old a hell of a lot quicker than good old classic NS. the fact that heaps of people still play classic, and prefer it over CO, is testament to this. if it wasnt for xmenu and other plugins, combat would have been dead and burried a long time ago...
<!--quoteo(post=1661268:date=Nov 19 2007, 10:39 PM:name=naggy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naggy @ Nov 19 2007, 10:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1661268"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seriously.. Wtf is the point in playing NS when the marine team is spamming PG/siege outside the hive at 5-6mins?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> what the hell is the point of playing combat when it's just one massively drawn out xeno/nade/web spamfest?
sure, it's a nice alternative sometimes, but to say it prolonged the life of the mod is laughable.
<!--quoteo(post=1661273:date=Nov 19 2007, 11:38 PM:name=Buzzou)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Buzzou @ Nov 19 2007, 11:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1661273"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i'd have to say combat definately gets old a hell of a lot quicker than good old classic NS. the fact that heaps of people still play classic, and prefer it over CO, is testament to this. if it wasnt for xmenu and other plugins, combat would have been dead and burried a long time ago...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm assuming your getting your numbers from the people who post on this forum, and if so, you are seriously misguided (see below for my reasoning). You actually think NS would have been able to get where it was without combat? Why do you even think it was created?
Unfortunately, NS classic got boring to the majority of NS players because of one main factor: Marine's needed a worthy commander, otherwise the game was ludicrously retarded in their favour. I'm sorry to break it to you, but it's the truth. Do you think the developers would rather sacrifice the majority of the gamers, or the minority who only like certain bits? I'm not saying that I hated classic NS I totally enjoyed it, but they obviously wanted to draw more people into the game and classic NS wasn't pulling It's weight.
Combat was the perfect solution.
<!--quoteo(post=1661273:date=Nov 19 2007, 11:38 PM:name=Buzzou)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Buzzou @ Nov 19 2007, 11:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1661273"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if it wasnt for xmenu and other plugins, combat would have been dead and burried a long time ago...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You hit the nail on the head. The xmenu and other custom plugins <i>saved</i> natural selection from becoming something that was just looked over or forgotten.. The only reason people hate xmenu is because people chose to abuse its potential.. I actually found it rather fun when the maximum level was 12 or 13, as it added that chance to get those extra upgrades, and was just a new look on things. And to be honest, <b>some</b> (not all) of the custom plugins aren't that bad.. Take gorge hook for example. It brought new life into the boring role of being a gorge.
<!--quoteo(post=1661286:date=Nov 20 2007, 02:57 AM:name=enigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(enigma @ Nov 20 2007, 02:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1661286"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->what the hell is the point of playing combat when it's just one massively drawn out xeno/nade/web spamfest?
sure, it's a nice alternative sometimes, but to say it prolonged the life of the mod is laughable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd rather play a drawn out, intensive 24 player game of custom combat that lasts 42 minutes over a retardedly boring game of classic NS which ends in under 10mins. I'm sure alot of people would agree. The only thing is, <u><b>they don't post on forums</b></u>. Did you ever wonder why the custom servers did so well? People get sick of playing the same old crap over and over, and quite frankly, thats how classic NS turned out to be. classic ns turned from a fun, slow paced game (even without teamwork) into a rushed 'igottagettherefirstotherwiseilloseandmye-peenwillshrink' fest, even before combat and custom servers were released.
I really get sick of people ######ing and moaning that combat/custom killed NS..
If you seriously want to think that, go ahead. The only thing your doing is lying to yourself.
<!--quoteo(post=1661315:date=Nov 20 2007, 11:03 AM:name=naggy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naggy @ Nov 20 2007, 11:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1661315"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only thing is, <u><b>they don't post on forums</b></u>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href="http://www.aserogaming.net/forums" target="_blank">http://www.aserogaming.net/forums</a>
The demographic to which combat appeals to is <14 years old. I hate combat players for one simple reason - they banned meb on every single one of his 9000000 accounts for "hacking".
You're never going to escape 12yo's in any kind of game that involves guns, pewpew, magic, rpg elements, aliens or anything that appeals to a child and/or teenager (99% of things). If the game didn't appeal to the younger population, it wouldn't do well. As I said before, NS classic wasn't as appealing to the younger crowd, so they invented combat.
By saying that I don't mean combat is PURELY for tards, but the fact that NS only had one game type didn't help its longevity. <i>Most</i> people got bored of vanilla NS (yes, including combat), and due to the fact that custom servers were introducing so many new things (not that they were all worth playing) such as mvm, ava, resource wars, siege, custom maps, etc. it was more enticing and entertaining to play as the gameplay was alot quicker and easier to get into the action. The main thing is that it didn't matter how good of a player you were, <b>you could still have fun</b>.
Isn't that what playing games is all about?
When I quit playing NS, there were about 2 or 3 custom servers that were always populated, and then there was rarely a vanilla NS server that was full. People were turned off vanilla NS due to the 'pubgods' who had no lives and just played NS all day every day because they were leet and though that camping hives with a SG was fun. lolwtf? If you want to blame someone for killing NS, blame the non-casual gamer.
The ns_ mode is what makes the game unique. There are tons of better and more alive shooters out there if you're looking for the action in combat alone.
<!--quoteo(post=1661376:date=Nov 20 2007, 09:52 PM:name=naggy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naggy @ Nov 20 2007, 09:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1661376"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When I quit playing NS, there were about 2 or 3 custom servers that were always populated, and then there was rarely a vanilla NS server that was full.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> G4B2S wasn't full? <BAD>? TG? Jigglypuff's? I don't know when exactly you quit, so I'm just throwing out a few servers that were full up until a month or two ago.
<!--quoteo(post=1661376:date=Nov 20 2007, 09:52 PM:name=naggy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naggy @ Nov 20 2007, 09:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1661376"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People were turned off vanilla NS due to the 'pubgods' who had no lives and just played NS all day every day because they were leet and though that camping hives with a SG was fun. lolwtf? If you want to blame someone for killing NS, blame the non-casual gamer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The lack of "pubgods" in combat should tell you something: it can't sustain the interest of a player for long. Would you market a game toward gamers who will play for a few days, quit, and spread their negative experiences to others, turning others off from trying the game? No, you aim for the longevity and replayability of the ns_, which still has die hard fans from half a decade ago.
G4B2S and <Bad> are full like 24/7, they always have players. Not sure about the others but I am a reg on BAD and play on G4B2S every now and then, there is always Nilla Classic fun to be had there.
<!--quoteo(post=1661379:date=Nov 20 2007, 11:37 PM:name=enigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(enigma @ Nov 20 2007, 11:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1661379"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The ns_ mode is what makes the game unique. There are tons of better and more alive shooters out there if you're looking for the action in combat alone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I loved NS classic. It's just that over the years the majority determined its fate.
<!--quoteo(post=1661379:date=Nov 20 2007, 11:37 PM:name=enigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(enigma @ Nov 20 2007, 11:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1661379"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->G4B2S wasn't full? <BAD>? TG? Jigglypuff's? I don't know when exactly you quit, so I'm just throwing out a few servers that were full up until a month or two ago.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've been referring to the Australian servers, I should have stated beforehand. I never really played on the American ones (I think I played on Jigglypuff's once?) due to ping issues.
<!--quoteo(post=1661379:date=Nov 20 2007, 11:37 PM:name=enigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(enigma @ Nov 20 2007, 11:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1661379"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The lack of "pubgods" in combat should tell you something: it can't sustain the interest of a player for long. Would you market a game toward gamers who will play for a few days, quit, and spread their negative experiences to others, turning others off from trying the game? No, you aim for the longevity and replayability of the ns_, which still has die hard fans from half a decade ago.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I quit NS in May this year, and I started playing when NS was released back in 2002. I wouldn't classify myself as a 'pubgod', but I do consider myself as something close to one (eg. an exceptional NS player<b><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->*<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>, as after 5 years one would expect..). I still played vanilla NS for over 2.5 years and up until I quit I enjoyed the occasional vanilla NS classic game here and there. The majority of the time was spent playing on custom servers with awesome communities.. That, and the fact that I had hell of a lot more fun is the reason I kept playing NS, as from the vanilla communities and/or servers I hardly got either.
<b><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->*<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>: Just so you know, I don't classify a 900hp Fade with 20second hunger exceptional, I'm referring to overall use of the games mechanics. Custom servers don't require skill, henceforth why they are so popular.
My opinions on CO- i play it as an intermission from classic, in which i just practice my combat skills, i dont really take it seriously or care about my score, i usually play as aliens cos im not very good as them. My main proplem with CO isnt the game its self, but the type of CS ish players it can attract, and the effects of that on my favoured classic. I expect the modding community to recreat a form of CO for custiom servers on ns2, i just hope it doenst over shadow the basic vanilla game play of ns2 with thoughtless playing.
I understand many ppl may have different views on CO, but i think it has a role of ns2 just as a minor game created by the community. i look forward to seeing lots of custom game types in ns2 created by communtiy but i just hope nilla stays the most popular, so the others add variety with out watering down the game with bad players attitudes.
ive only been playing ns for nearly 2 years, with significant breaks in it, but the servers i usually play on are: able ns: when it isnt full, <Bad> which i often find isnt quite full, G4B2S 1,2 or now they have a 3rd i think, but only when i can get a ping under 150, yo clan, and ns-game.net. i never play on any of the CO dedicated servers, or any of the seige servers. More often than not, i either cant access many of the above servers or, i cant get a ping bellow 150 on any of em, im based in UK with 2mb broadband so i can only usually get a good connection with able ns around 40ping. but thats almost always full. I definatly like to see more servers in ns2, but then theyl need the players to support them
<!--quoteo(post=1661472:date=Nov 21 2007, 09:32 PM:name=naggy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naggy @ Nov 21 2007, 09:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1661472"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I loved NS classic. It's just that over the years the majority determined its fate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with pretty much everything naggy said and I hate to admit it. As much as I loved the idea of RTS + FPS, ns maps got boring after a while because it was so limited.
co was fun & fast paced and you didn't have to rely on a crappy comm to win; any single person could make a big difference without having to run to the chair.
co extended ns's lifespan just as xmenu expanded co's lifespan. Just like on CS1.6 you see a ton of Gungame servers. With my friends I'd play co maps & have a blast. On my own, I'd hit up the sparse ns servers & every time wishing it was better and perhaps on the next map it'll magically change.
I also agree with a previous comment: all the co vs. ns discussions are limited to previous versions of NS; NS2 will (should) be a completely new game with balanced gameplay (and improved FPS+RTS qualities). The whole point of NS was to mix co (FPS) and ns (RTS) mechanics into a fun & balanced game. NS1 was a bit like a polished POC, and showed heavy promise... enough so that it gained a pretty sizable (and hardcore) fanbase. Of course it wasn't perfect, and the two types eventually repelled each other and split the playerbase. NS2 needs to finish off what NS1 started in terms of gameplay and create a game that has the ability to mix these two aspects cohesively.
Should take a lesson from BF2's book on spawning on squad capts to help keep things from falling into disarray. Of course, BF2 is approaching it from a FPS with increasing RTS kicks, instead of vice versa or trying for the perfect mix (because as of yet there is no cookie cutter available to use? And were the vision of UW just a co aliens vs marines game, I'd imagine they'd have had an easier time getting funding). Other mechanics can be improved to generate a feeling of successful squad-level tactics and overall feeling of accomplishing a goal for individual players (instead of conga lining from base to PG or hives) while also increasing the RTS feeling for commanders (or squad leaders) of micromanagement (afaik all comms in NS1 just set entire team to Squad X), and lean away from the prescribed "this map, conga line to here, build this, take these rooms, siege, the end".
One thing I hope doesn't disappear in NS2 is that marines are able to think faster than they're able to move. I hate the games where you bounce around like a damn rabbit spinning around in mid-air; causes disarray & random gameplay.
With the lessons learned from NS1, I'm confident that a successful true FPS+RTS mix game will be released soon. Whether or not it'll be NS2? I hope it is so I don't have to wait any longer...
Include everything in the first release, any good developer knows its bad to add huge game changing changes in the middle of a game, your going to create a rift between patches where people will want to play the old versions rather than the new once (some people still play 1.04 once in awhile o.O). This will prevent bieotching and moaning about game changes in the future, and its best not to release a half-finished game.
I doubt that The developers at unknown worlds will release a half made game >_< I have a good feeling that they will make more games in the future <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> ... but, my decision stands I HATE CO maps (when i am forced to play them 4 times in a row...)
PrefixÉirinn go BráchJoin Date: 2006-12-31Member: 59353Members, Constellation
CO is actually good when its vinilla, its not as good as classic, but tbh who cares? Those who say they cant find a server that plays classic maps must have a filter set to co_ maps only.
I liked Combat for a couple reasons that have already been listed, and I hate it for a couple reasons that have already been listed.
Main points for combat -Fast paced play that you didn't have to totally rely on your team, and could practice your skill with any wep/armor combo without begging the comm/waiting for 10-15 min. It also offered a break from years of Classic, but still allowed me to play the Natural Selection that I loved.
Negative points of combat - xmenu made it a silly mess sometimes, just spams of webs/ UA nades. It also attracted all the (horribly annoying)CS kiddies, who had no experience in the game and would turn to "OMG YOU HACK HOW DOES A LERK MOVE LIKE THAT?!?!?!1/1/1one1one". <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/asrifle.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::asrifle::" border="0" alt="asrifle.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/lerk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::lerk::" border="0" alt="lerk.gif" /> Those people are what killed the game for me, I could barely enjoy a game without grief for some reason or another.
I'm honestly not sure if it should be included in NS2.
You're going to be delighted. We are writing almost all of the game code in script (Lua) which means you'll be able to add your own weapons, gameplay modes, tech trees, etc. very easily. We do want to make sure people can play a "vanilla" game of NS2 easily though,<b> so we're planning on sorting servers into two lists: regular and custom. </b>See these blog entries for more details of our scripting system and code (overview, our debugger, scripting weapons #1, scripting weapons #2).
I began playing NS because of the major difference in both teams, humans and their buildings vs. aliens and their biology. It was fresh, interesting, and unlike everything else out there.
When combat arrived, maps came out for CO and rarely NS, almost every playable NS server was empty as everyone was on CO constantly.
For me, CO ruined the game and took a lot of the classic players out, making the regular game itself often unplayable due to the low populations.
In my mind, CO is just Counter-Strike with NS skins, and for that reason I say if you want that sorta gameplay, you should play CS and not NS.
This sounds quite harsh'n'cold, but I really don't want the playerbase to be split by something you can get in other mods.
<!--quoteo(post=1661379:date=Nov 21 2007, 01:37 PM:name=enigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(enigma @ Nov 21 2007, 01:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1661379"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The ns_ mode is what makes the game unique. There are tons of better and more alive shooters out there if you're looking for the action in combat alone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> hmm no, not really. playing as aliens cutting/chomping marines down is a very different and unique gaming experience for a shooter (well, i'm sure it's in a couple other games), and playing as marines shooting at those quick/fatal/beefed aliens is pretty unique and fun in itself.
<!--quoteo(post=1661379:date=Nov 21 2007, 01:37 PM:name=enigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(enigma @ Nov 21 2007, 01:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1661379"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The lack of "pubgods" in combat should tell you something: it can't sustain the interest of a player for long. Would you market a game toward gamers who will play for a few days, quit, and spread their negative experiences to others, turning others off from trying the game? No, you aim for the longevity and replayability of the ns_, which still has die hard fans from half a decade ago.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> hmmm no. A player is more likely to -have- negative experiences playing against/with a pubgod - so they play on combat, where they thankfully don't have such negative experiences. Plus, longevity isn't as important as pure numbers. Just because someone left, doesn't necessarily mean they find it boring or had negative experiences - they just found something more interesting for them (which could be expanded to the fact that there are more players of combat than classic). Simply, what we have on these are forums are die-hard fanboys - yeah, you know the kind, those who hold v1.04 as sacred and all iterations of the game afterwards as inferior. In terms of pure numbers, combat has more players and thus greater appeal (at the moment) than classic, because combat is just simply more fun than a public ns classic game. Features don't sell a game, entertainment (and good marketing) does.
I agree with the elimination of Combat, though I certainly don't think it killed NS... It just didn't fit and was never a well-balanced or especially fun game type. Good call.
That said, what's going to be done about small games, the problem that IIRC inspired combat to begin with? This applies to any team game, but especially an FPS/RTS. NS Classic wasn't fun or nearly balanced until maybe 5v5. Any "small game" mode you add will inevitably turn into Combat 2. Maybe you could just have a really small map or two, and make some balance tweaks to make the game playable with few players(namely the res model).
I don't know what you guys are doing about a server browser, but it would be nice if there were a way to fill up a server without actually leaving the game open, since alt-tabbing causes people problems. Like joining a server and putting the game in "wait mode," where it minimizes to the task bar and alerts you when a certain number of people have joined. So someone could see in the browser how many people are waiting for more and join to help them fill it. I know I hated filling servers in NS because I didn't want to waste my time playing 1v1 or 2v2, but people would never just AFK in the readyroom with me.
Combat should be just classic without a commander, focusing on making it simplified and keeping the same pace and style. If it's too different in style and pacing then the playerbase will be polarized and that would be annoying, not to mention bad for the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1665204:date=Dec 26 2007, 06:12 AM:name=Bosnian_Cowboy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bosnian_Cowboy @ Dec 26 2007, 06:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665204"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Combat should be just classic without a commander</b>, focusing on making it simplified and keeping the same pace and style. If it's too different in style and pacing then the playerbase will be polarized and that would be annoying, not to mention bad for the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> err, wait.. so you keep buildings? without a commander? you keep res and RT, without a commander? i don't get it. marines build their own buildings gorge-style? sounds like you're proposing <b>ns classic minus the commander</b>(edit: my mistake, that's <i>exactly</i> what you said). wouldn't that just make the marines aliens with different skins? dude, THAT would split the player base completely, you know how annoying having a 'bad' commander is, if you can just get rid of the commander altogether (which just runs counter to the ns 'vision'), people wouldn't even play 'classic' mode outside of competitive play. and it's reasonable; you've got all the ns, minus the bull######, at the sacrifice of the vision.
at least combat differentiated itself from ns (classic) - and it was ######ing fun, and it did well. while ns classic was the cross between rts and fps, ns combat was the cross between RPG and fps.
Or you could assume I mean without buildings because those are tied to a commander, a minimized version of classic maybe? My point is, make it a classic lite mode and not a "this mode is nothing like classic, enjoy all you classic haters!" I'm not going to throw out details. I'm not a wanna-be-designer. I'm just suggesting the principle they should go by.
but whY? combat was pretty good - it was damn fun. it wasn't classic, or a replacement, and it didn't claim to be; so i really don't see where all the negativity towards combat on these forums comes from. <i>"combat ruined NS"</i> - ruined how? it didn't affect classic ns play, which is what you're so obsessively fond of, so i don't see the problem. people that played combat didn't necessarily hate classic - and if they did, well i'm sure they have their reasons - which means that classic wasn't flawless as seems to be implied. wouldn't you agree? honestly, for accuracy i think that sentence should read "this mode is nothing like classic, suffer all you combat haters!"
shrug, but i understand - even if they don't bring combat back (i think they should, since it was a unique style of play) i think they need to at least bring back longer games for classic for general games, but mappers should be able to design levels for shorter classic games? you know, for the more casual gamers. ie. game duration depends on the mappers. - or they just bring back longer ns games and pair it with a more casual game-mode... :o combat.
I've played ns for only about half year now so I don't know about all the "co ruined classic" stuff but I've liked having co around. Co is what I like to play when there's only few people on the server and also try to use it a bit as a populator. Seeing a server with only 2 or 3 players on I'd prefer having combat map going on instead of classic since going 2 vs 2 on combat is faster due to the co maps usual size and classic is damn boring with only 4 players. Usually this also brings people along seeing that there are other players on the server and it's still nice cause it's combat and small teams won't matter. After some time there might be 10+ players and after the map has ended we can either keep on co or go classic with proper team sizes now.
<!--quoteo(post=1665412:date=Dec 28 2007, 03:07 PM:name=Legoinsinööri)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Legoinsinööri @ Dec 28 2007, 03:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665412"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->After some time there might be 10+ players and after the map has ended we can <b>either keep on co or go classic </b>with proper team sizes now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In my experience, using Combat to populate a server for Classic games is rarely effective. The instant the server swaps from a Combat map to Classic, the server empties very quickly. The players that joined shortly before quickly move on to find another Combat server.
Does this happen on your server as well, Legoinsinööri?
<!--quoteo(post=1665340:date=Dec 27 2007, 11:52 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Dec 27 2007, 11:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665340"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but whY? combat was pretty good - it was damn fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the reason Bosnian_Cowboy is advocating a "classic lite" mode in place of Combat is to ease the transition of new players from Combat to Classic. Combat as been portrayed as a training ground for new players to start of with, yet the stark difference between the two different game-modes may be rather disconcerting to new players, discouraging them from making the transition.
A quote from the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/download/" target="_blank">Natural-Selection downloads page</a> :
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>We recommend joining "Combat" games to start </b>(maps start with "co_"), and <b>moving to "NS" games when you"re more experienced</b> (maps start with "ns_").<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1665443:date=Dec 28 2007, 03:01 PM:name=spinviper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(spinviper @ Dec 28 2007, 03:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665443"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Does this happen on your server as well, Legoinsinööri?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well I have to say that I haven't tryed to start playing a ns map on an empty server because it's even more boring with small group of people so I can't tell if a ns map could populate the server better.
At least for what I'm used to on that server is that people definatly has their favourite from combat/classic but they still play the other one also so the server won't empty after the mode is changed.
Comments
i'd have to say combat definately gets old a hell of a lot quicker than good old classic NS. the fact that heaps of people still play classic, and prefer it over CO, is testament to this. if it wasnt for xmenu and other plugins, combat would have been dead and burried a long time ago...
what the hell is the point of playing combat when it's just one massively drawn out xeno/nade/web spamfest?
sure, it's a nice alternative sometimes, but to say it prolonged the life of the mod is laughable.
I'm assuming your getting your numbers from the people who post on this forum, and if so, you are seriously misguided (see below for my reasoning). You actually think NS would have been able to get where it was without combat? Why do you even think it was created?
Unfortunately, NS classic got boring to the majority of NS players because of one main factor: Marine's needed a worthy commander, otherwise the game was ludicrously retarded in their favour. I'm sorry to break it to you, but it's the truth. Do you think the developers would rather sacrifice the majority of the gamers, or the minority who only like certain bits? I'm not saying that I hated classic NS I totally enjoyed it, but they obviously wanted to draw more people into the game and classic NS wasn't pulling It's weight.
Combat was the perfect solution.
<!--quoteo(post=1661273:date=Nov 19 2007, 11:38 PM:name=Buzzou)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Buzzou @ Nov 19 2007, 11:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1661273"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if it wasnt for xmenu and other plugins, combat would have been dead and burried a long time ago...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You hit the nail on the head. The xmenu and other custom plugins <i>saved</i> natural selection from becoming something that was just looked over or forgotten.. The only reason people hate xmenu is because people chose to abuse its potential.. I actually found it rather fun when the maximum level was 12 or 13, as it added that chance to get those extra upgrades, and was just a new look on things. And to be honest, <b>some</b> (not all) of the custom plugins aren't that bad.. Take gorge hook for example. It brought new life into the boring role of being a gorge.
<!--quoteo(post=1661286:date=Nov 20 2007, 02:57 AM:name=enigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(enigma @ Nov 20 2007, 02:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1661286"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->what the hell is the point of playing combat when it's just one massively drawn out xeno/nade/web spamfest?
sure, it's a nice alternative sometimes, but to say it prolonged the life of the mod is laughable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd rather play a drawn out, intensive 24 player game of custom combat that lasts 42 minutes over a retardedly boring game of classic NS which ends in under 10mins. I'm sure alot of people would agree. The only thing is, <u><b>they don't post on forums</b></u>. Did you ever wonder why the custom servers did so well? People get sick of playing the same old crap over and over, and quite frankly, thats how classic NS turned out to be. classic ns turned from a fun, slow paced game (even without teamwork) into a rushed 'igottagettherefirstotherwiseilloseandmye-peenwillshrink' fest, even before combat and custom servers were released.
I really get sick of people ######ing and moaning that combat/custom killed NS..
If you seriously want to think that, go ahead. The only thing your doing is lying to yourself.
<a href="http://www.aserogaming.net/forums" target="_blank">http://www.aserogaming.net/forums</a>
The demographic to which combat appeals to is <14 years old. I hate combat players for one simple reason - they banned meb on every single one of his 9000000 accounts for "hacking".
By saying that I don't mean combat is PURELY for tards, but the fact that NS only had one game type didn't help its longevity. <i>Most</i> people got bored of vanilla NS (yes, including combat), and due to the fact that custom servers were introducing so many new things (not that they were all worth playing) such as mvm, ava, resource wars, siege, custom maps, etc. it was more enticing and entertaining to play as the gameplay was alot quicker and easier to get into the action. The main thing is that it didn't matter how good of a player you were, <b>you could still have fun</b>.
Isn't that what playing games is all about?
When I quit playing NS, there were about 2 or 3 custom servers that were always populated, and then there was rarely a vanilla NS server that was full. People were turned off vanilla NS due to the 'pubgods' who had no lives and just played NS all day every day because they were leet and though that camping hives with a SG was fun. lolwtf? If you want to blame someone for killing NS, blame the non-casual gamer.
<!--quoteo(post=1661376:date=Nov 20 2007, 09:52 PM:name=naggy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naggy @ Nov 20 2007, 09:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1661376"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When I quit playing NS, there were about 2 or 3 custom servers that were always populated, and then there was rarely a vanilla NS server that was full.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
G4B2S wasn't full? <BAD>? TG? Jigglypuff's? I don't know when exactly you quit, so I'm just throwing out a few servers that were full up until a month or two ago.
<!--quoteo(post=1661376:date=Nov 20 2007, 09:52 PM:name=naggy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naggy @ Nov 20 2007, 09:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1661376"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People were turned off vanilla NS due to the 'pubgods' who had no lives and just played NS all day every day because they were leet and though that camping hives with a SG was fun. lolwtf? If you want to blame someone for killing NS, blame the non-casual gamer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The lack of "pubgods" in combat should tell you something: it can't sustain the interest of a player for long. Would you market a game toward gamers who will play for a few days, quit, and spread their negative experiences to others, turning others off from trying the game? No, you aim for the longevity and replayability of the ns_, which still has die hard fans from half a decade ago.
I loved NS classic. It's just that over the years the majority determined its fate.
<!--quoteo(post=1661379:date=Nov 20 2007, 11:37 PM:name=enigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(enigma @ Nov 20 2007, 11:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1661379"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->G4B2S wasn't full? <BAD>? TG? Jigglypuff's? I don't know when exactly you quit, so I'm just throwing out a few servers that were full up until a month or two ago.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've been referring to the Australian servers, I should have stated beforehand. I never really played on the American ones (I think I played on Jigglypuff's once?) due to ping issues.
<!--quoteo(post=1661379:date=Nov 20 2007, 11:37 PM:name=enigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(enigma @ Nov 20 2007, 11:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1661379"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The lack of "pubgods" in combat should tell you something: it can't sustain the interest of a player for long. Would you market a game toward gamers who will play for a few days, quit, and spread their negative experiences to others, turning others off from trying the game? No, you aim for the longevity and replayability of the ns_, which still has die hard fans from half a decade ago.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I quit NS in May this year, and I started playing when NS was released back in 2002. I wouldn't classify myself as a 'pubgod', but I do consider myself as something close to one (eg. an exceptional NS player<b><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->*<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>, as after 5 years one would expect..). I still played vanilla NS for over 2.5 years and up until I quit I enjoyed the occasional vanilla NS classic game here and there. The majority of the time was spent playing on custom servers with awesome communities.. That, and the fact that I had hell of a lot more fun is the reason I kept playing NS, as from the vanilla communities and/or servers I hardly got either.
<b><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->*<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>: Just so you know, I don't classify a 900hp Fade with 20second hunger exceptional, I'm referring to overall use of the games mechanics. Custom servers don't require skill, henceforth why they are so popular.
I understand many ppl may have different views on CO, but i think it has a role of ns2 just as a minor game created by the community. i look forward to seeing lots of custom game types in ns2 created by communtiy but i just hope nilla stays the most popular, so the others add variety with out watering down the game with bad players attitudes.
ive only been playing ns for nearly 2 years, with significant breaks in it, but the servers i usually play on are: able ns: when it isnt full, <Bad> which i often find isnt quite full, G4B2S 1,2 or now they have a 3rd i think, but only when i can get a ping under 150, yo clan, and ns-game.net. i never play on any of the CO dedicated servers, or any of the seige servers. More often than not, i either cant access many of the above servers or, i cant get a ping bellow 150 on any of em, im based in UK with 2mb broadband so i can only usually get a good connection with able ns around 40ping. but thats almost always full. I definatly like to see more servers in ns2, but then theyl need the players to support them
I agree with pretty much everything naggy said and I hate to admit it. As much as I loved the idea of RTS + FPS, ns maps got boring after a while because it was so limited.
co was fun & fast paced and you didn't have to rely on a crappy comm to win; any single person could make a big difference without having to run to the chair.
co extended ns's lifespan just as xmenu expanded co's lifespan. Just like on CS1.6 you see a ton of Gungame servers. With my friends I'd play co maps & have a blast. On my own, I'd hit up the sparse ns servers & every time wishing it was better and perhaps on the next map it'll magically change.
I also agree with a previous comment: all the co vs. ns discussions are limited to previous versions of NS; NS2 will (should) be a completely new game with balanced gameplay (and improved FPS+RTS qualities). The whole point of NS was to mix co (FPS) and ns (RTS) mechanics into a fun & balanced game. NS1 was a bit like a polished POC, and showed heavy promise... enough so that it gained a pretty sizable (and hardcore) fanbase. Of course it wasn't perfect, and the two types eventually repelled each other and split the playerbase. NS2 needs to finish off what NS1 started in terms of gameplay and create a game that has the ability to mix these two aspects cohesively.
Should take a lesson from BF2's book on spawning on squad capts to help keep things from falling into disarray. Of course, BF2 is approaching it from a FPS with increasing RTS kicks, instead of vice versa or trying for the perfect mix (because as of yet there is no cookie cutter available to use? And were the vision of UW just a co aliens vs marines game, I'd imagine they'd have had an easier time getting funding). Other mechanics can be improved to generate a feeling of successful squad-level tactics and overall feeling of accomplishing a goal for individual players (instead of conga lining from base to PG or hives) while also increasing the RTS feeling for commanders (or squad leaders) of micromanagement (afaik all comms in NS1 just set entire team to Squad X), and lean away from the prescribed "this map, conga line to here, build this, take these rooms, siege, the end".
One thing I hope doesn't disappear in NS2 is that marines are able to think faster than they're able to move. I hate the games where you bounce around like a damn rabbit spinning around in mid-air; causes disarray & random gameplay.
With the lessons learned from NS1, I'm confident that a successful true FPS+RTS mix game will be released soon. Whether or not it'll be NS2? I hope it is so I don't have to wait any longer...
Main points for combat -Fast paced play that you didn't have to totally rely on your team, and could practice your skill with any wep/armor combo without begging the comm/waiting for 10-15 min. It also offered a break from years of Classic, but still allowed me to play the Natural Selection that I loved.
Negative points of combat - xmenu made it a silly mess sometimes, just spams of webs/ UA nades. It also attracted all the (horribly annoying)CS kiddies, who had no experience in the game and would turn to "OMG YOU HACK HOW DOES A LERK MOVE LIKE THAT?!?!?!1/1/1one1one". <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/asrifle.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::asrifle::" border="0" alt="asrifle.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/lerk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::lerk::" border="0" alt="lerk.gif" /> Those people are what killed the game for me, I could barely enjoy a game without grief for some reason or another.
I'm honestly not sure if it should be included in NS2.
from the FAQ
What's the modding situation with NS2?
You're going to be delighted. We are writing almost all of the game code in script (Lua) which means you'll be able to add your own weapons, gameplay modes, tech trees, etc. very easily. We do want to make sure people can play a "vanilla" game of NS2 easily though,<b> so we're planning on sorting servers into two lists: regular and custom. </b>See these blog entries for more details of our scripting system and code (overview, our debugger, scripting weapons #1, scripting weapons #2).
I began playing NS because of the major difference in both teams, humans and their buildings vs. aliens and their biology. It was fresh, interesting, and unlike everything else out there.
When combat arrived, maps came out for CO and rarely NS, almost every playable NS server was empty as everyone was on CO constantly.
For me, CO ruined the game and took a lot of the classic players out, making the regular game itself often unplayable due to the low populations.
In my mind, CO is just Counter-Strike with NS skins, and for that reason I say if you want that sorta gameplay, you should play CS and not NS.
This sounds quite harsh'n'cold, but I really don't want the playerbase to be split by something you can get in other mods.
hmm no, not really. playing as aliens cutting/chomping marines down is a very different and unique gaming experience for a shooter (well, i'm sure it's in a couple other games), and playing as marines shooting at those quick/fatal/beefed aliens is pretty unique and fun in itself.
<!--quoteo(post=1661379:date=Nov 21 2007, 01:37 PM:name=enigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(enigma @ Nov 21 2007, 01:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1661379"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The lack of "pubgods" in combat should tell you something: it can't sustain the interest of a player for long. Would you market a game toward gamers who will play for a few days, quit, and spread their negative experiences to others, turning others off from trying the game? No, you aim for the longevity and replayability of the ns_, which still has die hard fans from half a decade ago.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hmmm no. A player is more likely to -have- negative experiences playing against/with a pubgod - so they play on combat, where they thankfully don't have such negative experiences. Plus, longevity isn't as important as pure numbers. Just because someone left, doesn't necessarily mean they find it boring or had negative experiences - they just found something more interesting for them (which could be expanded to the fact that there are more players of combat than classic).
Simply, what we have on these are forums are die-hard fanboys - yeah, you know the kind, those who hold v1.04 as sacred and all iterations of the game afterwards as inferior. In terms of pure numbers, combat has more players and thus greater appeal (at the moment) than classic, because combat is just simply more fun than a public ns classic game. Features don't sell a game, entertainment (and good marketing) does.
That said, what's going to be done about small games, the problem that IIRC inspired combat to begin with? This applies to any team game, but especially an FPS/RTS. NS Classic wasn't fun or nearly balanced until maybe 5v5. Any "small game" mode you add will inevitably turn into Combat 2. Maybe you could just have a really small map or two, and make some balance tweaks to make the game playable with few players(namely the res model).
I don't know what you guys are doing about a server browser, but it would be nice if there were a way to fill up a server without actually leaving the game open, since alt-tabbing causes people problems. Like joining a server and putting the game in "wait mode," where it minimizes to the task bar and alerts you when a certain number of people have joined. So someone could see in the browser how many people are waiting for more and join to help them fill it. I know I hated filling servers in NS because I didn't want to waste my time playing 1v1 or 2v2, but people would never just AFK in the readyroom with me.
err, wait.. so you keep buildings? without a commander? you keep res and RT, without a commander? i don't get it. marines build their own buildings gorge-style? sounds like you're proposing <b>ns classic minus the commander</b>(edit: my mistake, that's <i>exactly</i> what you said). wouldn't that just make the marines aliens with different skins?
dude, THAT would split the player base completely, you know how annoying having a 'bad' commander is, if you can just get rid of the commander altogether (which just runs counter to the ns 'vision'), people wouldn't even play 'classic' mode outside of competitive play. and it's reasonable; you've got all the ns, minus the bull######, at the sacrifice of the vision.
at least combat differentiated itself from ns (classic) - and it was ######ing fun, and it did well. while ns classic was the cross between rts and fps, ns combat was the cross between RPG and fps.
shrug, but i understand - even if they don't bring combat back (i think they should, since it was a unique style of play) i think they need to at least bring back longer games for classic for general games, but mappers should be able to design levels for shorter classic games? you know, for the more casual gamers. ie. game duration depends on the mappers. - or they just bring back longer ns games and pair it with a more casual game-mode... :o combat.
In my experience, using Combat to populate a server for Classic games is rarely effective. The instant the server swaps from a Combat map to Classic, the server empties very quickly. The players that joined shortly before quickly move on to find another Combat server.
Does this happen on your server as well, Legoinsinööri?
<!--quoteo(post=1665340:date=Dec 27 2007, 11:52 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Dec 27 2007, 11:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665340"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but whY? combat was pretty good - it was damn fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the reason Bosnian_Cowboy is advocating a "classic lite" mode in place of Combat is to ease the transition of new players from Combat to Classic. Combat as been portrayed as a training ground for new players to start of with, yet the stark difference between the two different game-modes may be rather disconcerting to new players, discouraging them from making the transition.
A quote from the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/download/" target="_blank">Natural-Selection downloads page</a> :
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>We recommend joining "Combat" games to start </b>(maps start with "co_"), and <b>moving to "NS" games when you"re more experienced</b> (maps start with "ns_").<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well I have to say that I haven't tryed to start playing a ns map on an empty server because it's even more boring with small group of people so I can't tell if a ns map could populate the server better.
At least for what I'm used to on that server is that people definatly has their favourite from combat/classic but they still play the other one also so the server won't empty after the mode is changed.
Seems that things ain't that well everywhere?