Suggestions from Concerned Players
drakonsan
Join Date: 2007-12-05 Member: 63082Members
Join Date: 2007-12-05 Member: 63082Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Major and Minor Changes to Improve Enjoyment</div>My buddy and I had a sit down to discuss why he doesn't enjoy NS1, and what could be some of the worst gameplay errors of NS1. Squirrel, as I will call him, has followed the game since its conception and played through all of the patches to its current version. I myself have only played NS 2.0, and, as a noob player, understand that there is more to my mistakes than "OMG SKULK N FADE SO FAST!"
We decided that the game requires some rather serious changes, that would allow for the ease of use of marines and streamline the alien lifeforms to make them more enjoyable and interesting as a whole. We have done our best to ensure that the changes we propose are both effective, simple to implement, and within the spirit of the original game. Please realize that our suggestions, although numbered, do rely upon one another for maximum effectiveness.
1) Unity of Health and Armor
There is no need to have both health and armor. It is a relic from the DOOM era of gaming. One value, armor for soft, puny humans, and health for strong, hardy aliens, should suffice. An onos with 700 health and 950 armor is rediculous. A marine with 100 health that runs out before his 320 heavy armor even reaches half is a waste of resources. Drop the armor values from aliens and allow the "carapace" upgrade to give them bonus health. Drop the health from marines and allow their armor to protect them.
For an example of this concept in action, consider Team Fortress 2.
2) Marine Empowerment
This is a common complaint. All too often we have heard the cries of "COM I NEED HEAVY!" or "COM GIVE ME HEALTH!" The commander's focus should be on directing marines and supplying them with stuctures, not micromanaging health, ammo, and weapons. We understand that the purpose of the combat mode was to remedy this problem, however, for those that want a traditional style of play, they must still rely upon a commander that is too overtaxed with placing structures, delegating tasks to marines who may or may not perform them, dumping health, ammo, and weapons, performing sensor sweeps, etc.
We propose that marines should, like aliens, be given individual resource counters. Marine individual resource counters should not exceed some maximum res. We suggest 25. This res is to be spent at Armories for the purchase of weapons and equipment. The commander will no longer be able to spawn weapons, ammo, or heath packs.
3) Light Machine Upgrade OR Grenade Launcher Streamline
Remove the grenade launcher. It is a very cumbersome weapon with limited potential.
Instead, allow for a Light Machine Gun Grenade Launcher Attachment. Using secondary fire, the marine launches one of four grenade cartridges. He must stop his primary fire in order to do this. This will add a burst of much needed damage to the light machine gun at long range, while retaining the "demolition" purpose of the Grenade Launcher. Balance the attachment as needed.
4) Pistol Enhancement
Who ever uses a pistol? During the later stages of the game, the pistol becomes far more marginal than it was to begin with.
As the weapons upgrade from Level 1 to Level 2, the pistol should fire in a three round burst twice a second, effectively adding one round per second to the current weapon speed. From Level 2 to Level 3, the pistol becomes a fully automatic weapon, removing the pause between the two bursts.
5) Indigestion
Can an Onos really eat a grenade and be just Jim Dandy? Marines that have been devoured should have a last ditch option to arm their grenade in the belly of the beast for double damage. This would be 250 damage to the Onos and the death of the digesting marine.
6) Primary and Secondary Attacks
As mentioned previously with the Marine's secondary function with the Light Machine Gun/Grenade Launcher, all aliens should have their melee or #1 attack permenantly bound to primary fire. The remaining three abilities should be cycled through for their secondary fire. This would enable a Skulk to leap (which should be damageless) and bite at the same time, the Fade to blink and slash, etc.
7) Fade Redesign
In order to add depth to the gameplay, and make the Fade a more satisfying and fearsome opponent, we have completely redesigned the alien. We believe that of all the melee attacks, slash is the least impressive/satisfying. Of all the ranged attacks Acid Rocket makes the least sense.
Consider the following:
a) The Fade's primary attack will be a "blink-slam" or "blink-throw." A fade blinking into a marine will then pick up the player and either slam or throw them into a surface for damage. The marine must then recover from the assault. A grabbed marine may not attack. The fade may only continue to blink while he has a marine within its grasp. When the marine is pressed (slammed) or thrown into a surface, he takes damage. Please consider the angle that someone has been thrown, similar to the Half-Life 2 crossbow bolt's skipping or penetration into a surface. If the angle is shallow, the damage should be lessened.
b) The Fade's second ability will be a weakened version of the current slash to match its similarly pitiful animation. Sorry guys, it just doesn't look powerful at all.
c) The third ability will replace Acid Rocket with Acid Slick. The slick will last for three seconds upon deployment, and any marine unfortunate enough to move into or on the slick will fall and need to recover, similarly to having been slammed from a blink attack.
d) The final ability of the Fade will be metabolize. The health regeneration is too powerful on its own to be a second hive ability.
8) "Ler Gorge"
Both the Lerk and the Gorge are defensive aliens. The lerk, however, is nearly useless on its own. It is difficult to control, the attacks are an annoyance at best, and the support capabilities are far too powerful. With only every third bullet penetrating an umbra cloud, and only 40% of that damage hitting the target due to armor, if the projectiles strike the target at all, lerks make fades and onii nearly invincible. Couple that with Primal Scream, and it doesn't matter how heavy your train is, the aliens win.
Scratch the Lerk. It has failed.
The gorge is slow. It has very limited combat potential. The best thing a gorge can do is spam OC's with DC's to repair and back them up. The gorge's projectile attacks are not befitting of its fat, grounded body. Many times, there is a perfect position for a gorge to build a tower, but the player needs a Lerk to carry him up there.
Enter the "Ler-Gorge."
Yes, the gorge class with the movement of a lerk, a simplified flight system, and new player model to suit. Press jump once, and flight mode is activated. Crouch while on the ground, and the wings are folded back against the creature so that it may build. Flight movement will be similar to moving underwater:
Jump: move up
Crouch: move down
Forward: move in the direction the player is facing. Vertical position increases with respect to pitch: Looking straight up and pressing forward moves you straight up.
Back: move in the direction opposite the player is facing. Vertical position increases with respect to pitch: Looking straight up and pressing back moves you straight down.
No key pressed: Lose vertical position slowly.
When the player increases vertical position, some energy is lost.
Abilities will match those of the gorge.
The "Ler-Gorge" may not pick up and carry skulks or other aliens.
EDIT: Fixed some typos.
We decided that the game requires some rather serious changes, that would allow for the ease of use of marines and streamline the alien lifeforms to make them more enjoyable and interesting as a whole. We have done our best to ensure that the changes we propose are both effective, simple to implement, and within the spirit of the original game. Please realize that our suggestions, although numbered, do rely upon one another for maximum effectiveness.
1) Unity of Health and Armor
There is no need to have both health and armor. It is a relic from the DOOM era of gaming. One value, armor for soft, puny humans, and health for strong, hardy aliens, should suffice. An onos with 700 health and 950 armor is rediculous. A marine with 100 health that runs out before his 320 heavy armor even reaches half is a waste of resources. Drop the armor values from aliens and allow the "carapace" upgrade to give them bonus health. Drop the health from marines and allow their armor to protect them.
For an example of this concept in action, consider Team Fortress 2.
2) Marine Empowerment
This is a common complaint. All too often we have heard the cries of "COM I NEED HEAVY!" or "COM GIVE ME HEALTH!" The commander's focus should be on directing marines and supplying them with stuctures, not micromanaging health, ammo, and weapons. We understand that the purpose of the combat mode was to remedy this problem, however, for those that want a traditional style of play, they must still rely upon a commander that is too overtaxed with placing structures, delegating tasks to marines who may or may not perform them, dumping health, ammo, and weapons, performing sensor sweeps, etc.
We propose that marines should, like aliens, be given individual resource counters. Marine individual resource counters should not exceed some maximum res. We suggest 25. This res is to be spent at Armories for the purchase of weapons and equipment. The commander will no longer be able to spawn weapons, ammo, or heath packs.
3) Light Machine Upgrade OR Grenade Launcher Streamline
Remove the grenade launcher. It is a very cumbersome weapon with limited potential.
Instead, allow for a Light Machine Gun Grenade Launcher Attachment. Using secondary fire, the marine launches one of four grenade cartridges. He must stop his primary fire in order to do this. This will add a burst of much needed damage to the light machine gun at long range, while retaining the "demolition" purpose of the Grenade Launcher. Balance the attachment as needed.
4) Pistol Enhancement
Who ever uses a pistol? During the later stages of the game, the pistol becomes far more marginal than it was to begin with.
As the weapons upgrade from Level 1 to Level 2, the pistol should fire in a three round burst twice a second, effectively adding one round per second to the current weapon speed. From Level 2 to Level 3, the pistol becomes a fully automatic weapon, removing the pause between the two bursts.
5) Indigestion
Can an Onos really eat a grenade and be just Jim Dandy? Marines that have been devoured should have a last ditch option to arm their grenade in the belly of the beast for double damage. This would be 250 damage to the Onos and the death of the digesting marine.
6) Primary and Secondary Attacks
As mentioned previously with the Marine's secondary function with the Light Machine Gun/Grenade Launcher, all aliens should have their melee or #1 attack permenantly bound to primary fire. The remaining three abilities should be cycled through for their secondary fire. This would enable a Skulk to leap (which should be damageless) and bite at the same time, the Fade to blink and slash, etc.
7) Fade Redesign
In order to add depth to the gameplay, and make the Fade a more satisfying and fearsome opponent, we have completely redesigned the alien. We believe that of all the melee attacks, slash is the least impressive/satisfying. Of all the ranged attacks Acid Rocket makes the least sense.
Consider the following:
a) The Fade's primary attack will be a "blink-slam" or "blink-throw." A fade blinking into a marine will then pick up the player and either slam or throw them into a surface for damage. The marine must then recover from the assault. A grabbed marine may not attack. The fade may only continue to blink while he has a marine within its grasp. When the marine is pressed (slammed) or thrown into a surface, he takes damage. Please consider the angle that someone has been thrown, similar to the Half-Life 2 crossbow bolt's skipping or penetration into a surface. If the angle is shallow, the damage should be lessened.
b) The Fade's second ability will be a weakened version of the current slash to match its similarly pitiful animation. Sorry guys, it just doesn't look powerful at all.
c) The third ability will replace Acid Rocket with Acid Slick. The slick will last for three seconds upon deployment, and any marine unfortunate enough to move into or on the slick will fall and need to recover, similarly to having been slammed from a blink attack.
d) The final ability of the Fade will be metabolize. The health regeneration is too powerful on its own to be a second hive ability.
8) "Ler Gorge"
Both the Lerk and the Gorge are defensive aliens. The lerk, however, is nearly useless on its own. It is difficult to control, the attacks are an annoyance at best, and the support capabilities are far too powerful. With only every third bullet penetrating an umbra cloud, and only 40% of that damage hitting the target due to armor, if the projectiles strike the target at all, lerks make fades and onii nearly invincible. Couple that with Primal Scream, and it doesn't matter how heavy your train is, the aliens win.
Scratch the Lerk. It has failed.
The gorge is slow. It has very limited combat potential. The best thing a gorge can do is spam OC's with DC's to repair and back them up. The gorge's projectile attacks are not befitting of its fat, grounded body. Many times, there is a perfect position for a gorge to build a tower, but the player needs a Lerk to carry him up there.
Enter the "Ler-Gorge."
Yes, the gorge class with the movement of a lerk, a simplified flight system, and new player model to suit. Press jump once, and flight mode is activated. Crouch while on the ground, and the wings are folded back against the creature so that it may build. Flight movement will be similar to moving underwater:
Jump: move up
Crouch: move down
Forward: move in the direction the player is facing. Vertical position increases with respect to pitch: Looking straight up and pressing forward moves you straight up.
Back: move in the direction opposite the player is facing. Vertical position increases with respect to pitch: Looking straight up and pressing back moves you straight down.
No key pressed: Lose vertical position slowly.
When the player increases vertical position, some energy is lost.
Abilities will match those of the gorge.
The "Ler-Gorge" may not pick up and carry skulks or other aliens.
EDIT: Fixed some typos.
Comments
I'm wondering how many ideas came from you and how many from your friend. The points you raise show misunderstanding of key NS concepts. I'll try to clear things up and explain the reasons behind current NS design.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1) Unity of Health and Armor
There is no need to have both health and armor. It is a relic from the DOOM era of gaming. One value, armor for soft, puny humans, and health for strong, hardy aliens, should suffice. An onos with 700 health and 950 armor is rediculous. A marine with 100 health that runs out before his 320 heavy armor even reaches half is a waste of resources. Drop the armor values from aliens and allow the "carapace" upgrade to give them bonus health. Drop the health from marines and allow their armor to protect them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Armor has a very big impact on the game for both aliens and marines (infinitely more than TF). I assume you know that 1armor point=2hp. Since aliens regenerate health first, armor second, they have to wait to be fully healed after attack to get their armor, which forces them to wait longer. This forces fades with regeneration still wait between attacks or risk going without armor. For marines, med spam does not replenish armor, so they only take 2 bites to get killed; without armor, med spam would be much more effective. Also, check NS guides - a heavy will not die with armor remaining! I think about 90% of damage taken is deducted from armor.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2) Marine Empowerment
This is a common complaint. All too often we have heard the cries of "COM I NEED HEAVY!" or "COM GIVE ME HEALTH!" The commander's focus should be on directing marines and supplying them with stuctures, not micromanaging health, ammo, and weapons. We understand that the purpose of the combat mode was to remedy this problem, however, for those that want a traditional style of play, they must still rely upon a commander that is too overtaxed with placing structures, delegating tasks to marines who may or may not perform them, dumping health, ammo, and weapons, performing sensor sweeps, etc.
We propose that marines should, like aliens, be given individual resource counters. Marine individual resource counters should not exceed some maximum res. We suggest 25. This res is to be spent at Armories for the purchase of weapons and equipment. The commander will no longer be able to spawn weapons, ammo, or heath packs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In NS1 the commander is indeed responsible for a lot of things and a bad commander can screw up the game. What the commander SHOULD be responsible for in NS2 is debatable - and is worthy of it's own topic. Personally, i would like the commander to still be the architect behind every marine victory, responsible for organizing shotgun rushes, Heavy trains etc. Allowing marines to get individual upgrades for their success is an interesting premise. Again, this requires more discussion.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3) Light Machine Upgrade OR Grenade Launcher Streamline
Remove the grenade launcher. It is a very cumbersome weapon with limited potential.
Instead, allow for a Light Machine Gun Grenade Launcher Attachment. Using secondary fire, the marine launches one of four grenade cartridges. He must stop his primary fire in order to do this. This will add a burst of much needed damage to the light machine gun at long range, while retaining the "demolition" purpose of the Grenade Launcher. Balance the attachment as needed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From your post, it seems like you play CO most of the time and only had very few enjoyable NS maps. The Grenade Launcher was designed to take out enemy buildings. A lone player with a GL is supposed to be an easy target. But when supported, a GL in able hands can be devastating against OCs, hives, and skulks. In fact, the GL has often been considered overpowered. Your idea of attachable grenades to the LMG is a creative, but, i still think the GL is here to stay.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4) Pistol Enhancement
Who ever uses a pistol? During the later stages of the game, the pistol becomes far more marginal than it was to begin with.
As the weapons upgrade from Level 1 to Level 2, the pistol should fire in a three round burst twice a second, effectively adding one round per second to the current weapon speed. From Level 2 to Level 3, the pistol becomes a fully automatic weapon, removing the pause between the two bursts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The pistol has 100% accuracy and with a fast trigger-finger can have very good rate of fire. At long ranges, the pistol is much better than LMG at hurting skulks. True, in late game the pistol can't really hurt onos or fade, but it still remains the best weapon at long range. Maybe the role of pistol as a sniper rifle should change in NS2. Actually, NS2 Alt-fire might incorporate some of the ideas you suggest.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->5) Indigestion
Can an Onos really eat a grenade and be just Jim Dandy? Marines that have been devoured should have a last ditch option to arm their grenade in the belly of the beast for double damage. This would be 250 damage to the Onos and the death of the digesting marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Many have suggested ideas concerning onos' devour. Hopefully marines will be able to do more than just stare at the stomach when devoured. I think your suggestion is unbalancing, though.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->6) Primary and Secondary Attacks
As mentioned previously with the Marine's secondary function with the Light Machine Gun/Grenade Launcher, all aliens should have their melee or #1 attack permenantly bound to primary fire. The remaining three abilities should be cycled through for their secondary fire. This would enable a Skulk to leap (which should be damageless) and bite at the same time, the Fade to blink and slash, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Use "Q" to switch to last weapon in NS!!! skulk: leap, "q", attack, "q", leap away. Same for fade's blink. This is a skill all skulks+fades have to master in NS. NS2 will be more complex, considering the Alt-abilities, but the same technique might work. I would be a BIG shame if they followed your advice - i want new abilities!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->7) Fade Redesign<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In able hands, the fade IS the most fearsome alien creature! I won't go in depth here, but i will say that metabolize is not nearly as effective as you think.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->8) "Ler Gorge"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me clear up the confusion: Lerk is a SUPPORT class. As you mention, it is nearly useless on it's own and extremely powerful with other aliens. <i>Keep </i>the Lerk. It has <i>succeeded</i>! Lerk flight model requires getting used to, but it's the most compelling simulation for animal flight you'll find. You press space to flap your wings and hold space to glide (in case you haven't figured it out).
You offer several interesting ideas and suggestions to improve the game, but most of it is due to frustration or lack of understanding. NS is a difficult game to learn to play. One thing your post shows is that NS2 needs to be much, much more friendly towards new players. As of now, NS is playable, but you HAVE TO know many tricks to be even ok at it. To many, the alien side will be a completely new FPS experience. The commander mode might seem to be just a RTS game, but people treating it this way will probably fail.
Quick-edit for spelling
1) unity of health an armour, i quite like having them separate cos u can repair em seperatly as a rine - weld/health pack. I htink there may be a case for saying this system is redundant tho. However if we are to get one health pool id like a filter style armour - armour that has a constnat damage reduction rather that health bar. So light armout absorbs 20% damage, and armour 2 absorbs 40% etc.
2) marine empowerment has already been discussed loads and even mentioned by the devs in podcasts.
3) I quite like the idea of a grenade launcher upgrade for LMG but it wud have to be a late game upgrade. if rines started map with it, there wud be chaos. Its relode times, and general balance issues and cost, since presumably rines wud respawn with it once the upgrade was perchased need debate.
6) i hate the current primary/secondary attack system ( i use q for voice mic) so id like to see that changed.
7) Currently the fade is potentially the most powerful alien. if u join a server and find an alien player at over 100kills they are usually a fade. If the fade does need redesigning, it needs a thread of its own really cos its quite a complex class and i dont know its history but i do know it wasnt always like it is now. I agree that metabolise is probs too powerful for second hive considering no other assult aliens get it.
8) Lerks probs my favourite alien class atm, along with gorge. they may need changes but not combining in my opinion. Theres already been quite alot of discussion about the probs with gorges, but the lerks havent been mentioned much. If the rines dont have HA the lerks two gas attacks are very powerful, maybe they shud drop primal scream and get theyre sniper attack back.
1.) Is this for real or a joke?
2.) If it is for real... thank you for the input.
This gave me a thought, however. I know there is the thread for those of us to input why our friends don't like NS1, but how much has the community gone out there to get the input from other communities as to their opinions. Those that have played the game a couple times and stopped are definitely not hanging around here... we need/want their input... so how do we get it?
Hi! and welcome.
<!--quoteo(post=1662935:date=Dec 5 2007, 04:53 AM:name=drakonsan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(drakonsan @ Dec 5 2007, 04:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1662935"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1) Unity of Health and Armor<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think this is that big of a deal, but I do think it would make the game a little more intuitive.
<!--quoteo(post=1662935:date=Dec 5 2007, 04:53 AM:name=drakonsan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(drakonsan @ Dec 5 2007, 04:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1662935"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2) Marine Empowerment<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You should check out the podcast about the Commander in NS2. The roles will be a little different, you will get more customization as a marine in NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1662935:date=Dec 5 2007, 04:53 AM:name=drakonsan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(drakonsan @ Dec 5 2007, 04:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1662935"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3) Light Machine Upgrade OR Grenade Launcher Streamline<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The GL is cumbersome for a reason, it's a specialist weapon. It's not meant for killing aliens, and needs team support.
<!--quoteo(post=1662935:date=Dec 5 2007, 04:53 AM:name=drakonsan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(drakonsan @ Dec 5 2007, 04:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1662935"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4) Pistol Enhancement
Who ever uses a pistol? During the later stages of the game, the pistol becomes far more marginal than it was to begin with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I use the pistol, all the time. It's my favorite gun in NS. I think you're a bit off the mark here in it's usefulness.
<!--quoteo(post=1662935:date=Dec 5 2007, 04:53 AM:name=drakonsan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(drakonsan @ Dec 5 2007, 04:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1662935"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->5) Indigestion<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This has been suggested a lot. Onos are very slow, and once you know how to fight them you don't need double damage grenades to hurt them.
<!--quoteo(post=1662935:date=Dec 5 2007, 04:53 AM:name=drakonsan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(drakonsan @ Dec 5 2007, 04:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1662935"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->6) Primary and Secondary Attacks<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You should check out the +movement key. I bound it to my middle mouse button and it's insta-leap/blink/charge.
<!--quoteo(post=1662935:date=Dec 5 2007, 04:53 AM:name=drakonsan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(drakonsan @ Dec 5 2007, 04:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1662935"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->7) Fade Redesign<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Fade is the most powerful unit in the game. It takes a lot of practice to master but the fade doesn't need any beefing up.
<!--quoteo(post=1662935:date=Dec 5 2007, 04:53 AM:name=drakonsan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(drakonsan @ Dec 5 2007, 04:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1662935"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><combination lerk gorge><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes they are both support aliens but their purposes are quite different. Lerks are frontline support that can also take out isolated marines. Gorges are builders and behind front lines. Spore, umbra, web, healspray, primal, and bilebomb are all critical abilities. You can't lose any of them without changing the game drastically.
LVL 1: Only lmg and shotgun are available. Shotguns cost 15 res a piece.
LVL 2: Shotguns and flamethrowers are available. Shotguns cost 10 res and flamethrowers 15 res.
LVL 3: HMG/shotguns/flamethrowers are available. Shotguns cost 5 res/ flamethrowers 10 res/ HMG 15 res.
Separate upgrades would be personal grenades and welders (15 res for welder upgrade + 10 for nades)
Along similar lines have the arms lab have separate tech trees for each individual weapon:
LMG LVL 1 does normal damage -> LVL 2 does increased damage -> LVL 3 adds underbarrel nade launcher
Give the commander a little more flexibility but allow each individual marine to choose their weapon (if available) from the armory. I think the marines should also get personal res similar to the aliens but also still keep it tied to getting more res nodes. I have always believed that the commanders role should be to empower the marines and the marines should have incentive to build more res (I can get that weapon sooner).
I think you should revamp the res for kills for the marines. I think it should be 1 res per skulk, 2 res for gorge and lerk, and 3 res for fade/onos. Well I have more ideas but I await everyones feedback.
I'll have to admit that most of the ideas came from me, and not squirrel. Items 1, 7, and 8 were proposed by squirrel, but the class revamps were done as a joint effort.
It seems that people are considering our rebuild of the Fade as making it more damaging. In our design, the blink-slam would do a MAXIMUM of 50 damage, barring any falling damage that may be received from throwing the marine into a ceiling. The damage of the slash attack would be changed to something less than this, probably 30, as to reflect how puny the animation is.
There was some confusion of whether or not marines would spawn with a LMG+GLA, this is NOT SO. Marines would have to buy the GLA for 20 res, the full price of a grenade launcher.
There was another bit of confusion over the unity of health and armor. In our model, marines do not have any health, only armor. This allows healing via the welder. Our opinion is that, should the average human being have a chunk of flesh torn out of its body, it wouldn't survive too well. There are many "realistic shooters," such as counter-strike, where players are able to take multiple bullets. Yeah... No. When a person is damaged by gunshot, massive alien bite, or metal dissolving acid, they don't stand there saying "Gee, that sure will leave a stain." They fall over, possibly into a fetal position, and die a slow, painful death... unless it's a headshot, but then I'm getting silly. Similarly, Aliens would have only health, since we don't see them putting on kevlar.
Yes, I'll admit that the double damage indigestion grenade is probably a bit overpowered. Then again, I have seen a heavy train sit and fire HMGs for about ten seconds at an onos (that's 20 dmg * 9 bullets * 10 seconds * 4 marines, or about 7200 HP of damage) and it walks out, just happy to have devoured the one newbie who thought he was awesome with his brand new HMG and ran in. This sort of thing, I just don't understand. And yes, I was the marine who was devoured.
Our argument for removing the lerk is that, in public servers, we rarely see a lerk using umbra to protect aliens. They simply spam Spore, slowly backing unarmored marines further back, or doing absolutely nothing to heavies. Primal scream? I've never seen it, not once. Squirrel misses the long range spike attack, but doesn't think the class is of much use either. The true asset of Lerk, however, IS umbra, because umbra is broken. Only 1 of every 3 bullets passes through. Armor, which I believe absorbs 66% damage, then reduces the damage to health to 11% of the original amount.
On a side note, I have played CO all of twice. I find it to be a horrible adaptation of the game. I wish it left and never came back.
Keep it coming. Do ask for clarification if you want it.
<!--quoteo(post=1662981:date=Dec 5 2007, 12:24 PM:name=drakonsan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(drakonsan @ Dec 5 2007, 12:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1662981"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, I'll admit that the double damage indigestion grenade is probably a bit overpowered. Then again, I have seen a heavy train sit and fire HMGs for about ten seconds at an onos (that's 20 dmg * 9 bullets * 10 seconds * 4 marines, or about 7200 HP of damage) and it walks out, just happy to have devoured the one newbie who thought he was awesome with his brand new HMG and ran in. This sort of thing, I just don't understand. And yes, I was the marine who was devoured.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I bet you won't make that mistake again <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> . We all know NS has a large learning curve. There's an active topic much like this one in the NS2 General Discussion forum <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=103049" target="_blank">here</a>.
<!--quoteo(post=1662981:date=Dec 5 2007, 12:24 PM:name=drakonsan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(drakonsan @ Dec 5 2007, 12:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1662981"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Our argument for removing the lerk is that, in public servers, we rarely see a lerk using umbra to protect aliens. They simply spam Spore, slowly backing unarmored marines further back, or doing absolutely nothing to heavies. Primal scream? I've never seen it, not once. Squirrel misses the long range spike attack, but doesn't think the class is of much use either. The true asset of Lerk, however, IS umbra, because umbra is broken. Only 1 of every 3 bullets passes through. Armor, which I believe absorbs 66% damage, then reduces the damage to health to 11% of the original amount.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I forget if it blocks 1/3 or 2/3 bullets, regardless it's very good. As I said before NS is a team game and these are abilities designed to encourage teamwork. GL's and hand nades are 100% effective against umbra and one good sneaky shotgun can take out that pesky lerk. At the same time, as you mentioned, umbra is very effective. I've seen some very good lerks; lerk and fade are very similar in that a good player can make them seem unbalanced.
You ever heard about +movement? you dont even have to switch weapons to leap or blink or whatever <.<
bind key +movement
and your happy
"Max: And the commander is going to be a bigger part of NS2, I would say, than NS1.
Charlie: I think so. You might say twice as big.
...
Max: Well, one thing that we kind’ve mentioned on the blog is allowing player to essentially purchase weapons, almost like a counterstrike kind’ve thing.
Charlie: Right.
Max: Um, you know, they wouldn’t be able to purchase anything, they would still be tied to the commander. In terms of the commander would research new technologies, and resources also factor into there, but the guy on the ground would have a lot more flexibility in choosing, ok I really like working with the shotgun so I’m gonna get that. Or, um, you know that kind of thing.
Charlie: And the key here being that the commander would make the strategic decision that they wanna, like, devote their resources towards like, say shotguns, or, I dunno, laser or weapons or, you know, sniper, not that those things are gonna go in, but say flamethrowers, and then the marines on the ground actually purchase the flamethrowers. So that way the commander does the strategy and the person on the ground still choose their play style. Which I hope will work pretty well."
Also they talked about the commander using "spells" to affect areas of combat - read the full transcript to find out what the developers think about.
Actually I'm surprised that your friend "Squirl" who is experienced in NS proposed 1, 7 and 8. I think that each alien creature has it's own role with a set of strengths and weaknesses. That fade, as is, is a great hit-and-run fighter, able to take out a single marine and quickly recover - but he is weak against HA groups. The onos IS tough and designed to counter HA trains and static defense- but then he's big, slow cow and vulnerable to JP. Granted, the lerk is a difficult class to master, but it doesn't mean it needs to disappear.
I don't like the idea to combine LMG and GL - these are two distinctive weapons. GL is a complex and useful enough weapon to be on its own.
Armor and health bars could be reduced to a single bar, but that would require a big change in the way health would work. If we take the system you propose, a lot of complexity of NS1 would be lost - Commander won't be able to help lone marines with health, welders would become a big marine requirement, aliens with regen would be able to stay longer in middle of firefights. I think NS made very good use of the distinct armor and health and hope that the system will survive into NS2.
Finally, i think that new players have to be respected in NS, because it IS a complex game. Instead of comments like "LOLNOOB, L2P!", it's much more useful to help out. Especially now input from new NS players is EXTREMELY useful, to prepare NS2 to the flood of noobs, who will quickly dismiss the game if it's too frustrating when released. How to use leap/blink effectively, pistol's role as the sniper rifle, lerk's support role and many other things are not clear to new players and even players who played a while. Posts like yours can show things that will have to be improved or better explained in NS2.
IMO those are all the AoE damage that marines should have as base equipment. Sure, they dont do jack against structures (they're not worth the time, but they would be if the 2X damage against structures came back). But they definitely cut through the umbra and get into the vents, behind the rts, etc.
To add in this secondary grenade upgrade to the LMG would, and should, serve a different purpose. Perhaps its a later-game upgrade (AA, not proto), and is only for Incendiary grenades. You get one when you spawn, and its like HGs; they dont come back. The fire blasts out from where it explodes (small explosion damage and radius), the fire doesn't stack from multiple grenades, and does fairly small damage but for a good few seconds. I'd foresee this mainly as a secondary way to get rid of DI when you dont have a flamethrower handy. Being on the AA and not the Proto, this could create a choice for the comm; go for Flamethrowers or go for Incend grenades, or which one first.