New Hive

killkrazy · October 2007

<div class="IPBDescription">if they still exist</div>Well, one thing I believe evolution wouldn't do is remove the need for a hive... and if the hive is removed, then what happens to hive mind? the whole underpinning of the Kharaa race would shatter and leave them useless.

So i was thinking, with evolution having occurred in the time past, what would the hive look like now?
I began to think... well the hive used to be sooooooooo vulnerable, HMGs at 900 yards could decimate it... so surely natural selection would have kicked in, these pathetic exposed and weak hives would have been dropped in favour of a stronger, better adapted hive.

I envision the hive to be similar to how hives have evolved on earth...
the basic make-up of hives are:

Outer Shell; A strong protective layer to shield the hive from the environment and attacks.
Incubation Chambers; many small chambers dedicated to growing the new workers.
Hive Queen Chamber; A large chamber that houses the hive Queen

Now, I know NS has always had a Hive MIND, instead of a Queen... well, that's fine, the "mind" i guess what we see in NS1 would be housed in the queen's chamber.

The hive mind would be fully shielded at the beginning (reachable with a siege I guess) and so marines would have to blow holes, or enter the hive's outer wall to kill the hive-mind.
I believe this would solve the issues with marines destroying the hive from hundreds of feet away with HMGs it would also add an interesting dynamic with a mini-siege of the hive when marines have arrived... perhaps 3 gorges inside healing (protected by the outer-shell) and so marines would have to develop new tactics for approaching a hive.

With the incubation chamber seperate, and shielded... it'd be difficult (except for JPers) to access and camp the spawn.. and if it is camped, the whole alien team could wait and rush from the incubation area.

here is a simple diagram of the structure (with a cross-section):
<img src="http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/4926/hiverc8.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

Wyattx3 · October 2007

I really like the concept of this idea, the only problem I see is, the shape size position of hive rooms would be dependent on the structure of the outer shell and the chambers inside. For example the hives that are hanging would need different shaped shells and stuff, but I guess its just another thing for the mapper to work around, so it isn't that big of a deal.

Also this gave me another idea, Infestation could be used to grow around the hive and provide some protection, given that it could harden or stop some bullets.

DirrrtyDog[SA] · October 2007

Nice concept. I really like the ant hole the skulks will be coming out of! Great place to camp as a marine.
See where this is going?

yoda · October 2007

I'll bring my magnifying glass ^^

invader Zim · October 2007

I like the idea of being able to go inside the hive. But id prefer ur pick if it looked more biological and had bulges n stuff rather than looking like a large termite mound but the essense of the ideas good. The inside should be full of traps to catch rines, and it should be upgradable

spawnof2000 · October 2007

i like this idea its a good idea but i think instead of just a single hole in the top the hive you should have several holes around the base aswell that open and close as an alien gets near these could be holes that the marines would have to force im thinking they would be a stoma like opening <a href="http://botit.botany.wisc.edu/images/130/Bryophytes/Anthocerophyta/Stoma_MC.html&h=468&w=613&sz=75&tbnid=VKPTyv1_bN4VyM:&tbnh=104&tbnw=136&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dstoma%2Bimage%26um%3D1&start=1&sa=X&oi=images&ct=image&cd=1" target="_blank">http://botit.botany.wisc.edu/images/130/Br...=image&cd=1</a> where the two curvey lines you see open and close

Domining · October 2007

It'd be cool if whenever marines went inside the hive room, they really felt like they were walking into the hive room. DI will do that, I'm sure.

kyliegirl · October 2007

you gave me a spur of inspiration so i drew up a better pic of what i think your trying to say..

i think a hive mind will work perfectly with a seethroughish type of cocoon which protects the hive from direct damage from long distances, it would also be a perfect birthing spot instead of right next to a marine in a room..

<img src="http://www.opticpower.com/kylie/other/hivetype.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

2aimless · October 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kyliegirl @ Oct 12 2007, 05:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1655567"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>you gave me a spur of inspiration so i drew up a better pic of what i think your trying to say..

i think a hive mind will work perfectly with a seethroughish type of cocoon which protects the hive from direct damage from long distances, it would also be a perfect birthing spot instead of right next to a marine in a room..

<img src="http://www.opticpower.com/kylie/other/hivetype.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></div>

Well that would fit with the dynamic infestation idea somehow?!

A hive in a infested room should be able to release umbra-gas from the infested area so the damage from long distance weapons will be decreased. the longer the distance for the bullet the more the dmg is decreased

So like the marine vents etc that release steam on some maps the infested area could do that do. maybe from little gas-eggs like in kyliegirls picture

Valcien · October 2007

If I know you'l be coming from the hive every time you respawn, it will be way easier for me to blast you, than if there was the possibility of you respawning behind me or to the side. I don't think you could get rid of random spawn throughout the room, but maybe you could pretty it up with say, birthing chambers lining every wall.

MagicElemental · October 2007

Of course not in the ant hill picture but the second one I see little eggs-like structures protruding from the ceiling. Aliens could spawn from persistent small structures around the hive in enough places that it would lower spawn camping, right now the whole random spawn on the floor looks bad. Perhaps the egg-like structures would be continually building up on the ceiling until they get big enough and drop on the floor. Most of the time they would be duds though some times the alien team would spawn in the egg droplets either while they were on the floor or about to drop. The egg-droplets would be impossible to see through for the marines, the eggs would be invincible and aliens spawning could only look out of them for a short while giving them time to orient them self then after a the time is up the egg breaks and the alien is free. Perhaps marines spawning in from an IP could also see ahead of time before they spawn/warp to base what their base looks like. As if the the cognitive portion of the marines got their before his physical for did, its sci-fi why not?

Hive upgrades would be nice such as umbra after the first bullet hits the hive. Or an acid spitting growth on the side of the hive.

Steve0 · October 2007

It would be down to the mapper in the end , as spawns are handled via info_player nodes etc etc . If you wanted you could have an alien spawn in the marine spawn lol. But i can see if the Hive changes to whats in the concept, the entire room would have to be sectioned up. It would be ALOT of hardwork doing gameplay balancing in just the hive room for those reasons, but it would definatley give more of a feel of walking into a hive. Kind of reminds me of the antlion nest in EP2. But i would definatley put the effort in just to do that, its preety cool idea ;P.

You wouldnt even have to change the hive at all, but just make decent looking textures and some bsp changes with dynamic infestation on the walls, with some doors (i say doors because alien can walk through a goo wall or something and marine cant without destroying it abit like the webs in Ep2 antlion tunnels). It would be alot of room editing around the hive.

Btw , you are very talented kyliegirl! Awesome piece of art that is, good job <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />

Wyattx3 · October 2007

That drawing is so awesome, looks like the hive could have a chamber inside where aliens could spawn inside and crawl out.

Although as for spawn camping, I think the only reason it is so bad on the alien team is because usually the marines at the time don't have the firepower to keep killing aliens AND kill the hive, so they just continue spawn camping until they eventually get killed which by that time they have gotten such an advantage that it ends up being just a drawn out game that is almost assuredly the marines victory. But the only time marines can ever spawn camp is the fact that they get into the hive and either, aliens come and can't kill the marines or all the aliens are already dead, and at that point marines should win. Just like if you have skulks chomping on your IPs, if your beacon fails, or the commander gets killed trying to save them, then marines have an even harder time pulling out from that situation.

In NS2, it would be interesting to see the aliens actually spawn from the hive for a couple of reasons. It would end the games faster as marines wouldn't have to pay attention to aliens spawning out of the walls or floors around them as they kill the hive. ( And this would only apply when all the aliens are dead, or if the aliens that are still alive fail to defend the hive.) Secondly, it would look amazing. The hive would jiggle a little and the out comes an egg, a few moments later a skulk pops out of that egg and is free to move around. The egg it self could have ~30 health and could provide some protection to the skulk spawning in. As you spawn in as alien you view would be rolling out of the hive and landing on the floor/water below the hive and you could chomp out of the egg to get out.

kyliegirl · October 2007

I thought of an idea, i dont know if its possible, but with the hl2 engine it seems possible. I made some concepts of mini hive like tubes (they look like upside down nephentes growing out of the walls and floor) that grow out of the infestation which allow you to spawn anywhere within the room. It would make sense that in the hive mind the hive would expand stems with pods at the end to allow the random spawing of kharaa for defence.

I will try to get around to drawing up the concept soon (im waiting for my early xmas pressie from bf A CINTIQ YAY)

btw thx on comment for the art (it was actually just a very rough 10 min rush)

killkrazy · October 2007

Great concept of the hive, the see-through membrane looks / feels nicer and more eerie.

but about the hive-like-tubes, remember a hive-queen's (or hive-mind's i guess) only purpose in the colony is to produce more offspring, remove the need for the queen (the tubes) and why even have it? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> not only that, but the queen would disallow any type of thing to preserve her own existence and that of her offspring!
It's imperative that aliens still spawn from the hive, that makes sense and is probably the easiest method to implement. adding the protective membrane around the hive will protect skulks mostly

Cataclyzm · October 2007

If I can add one more bit... what if the Hive's were to adopt a characteristic of the type of chamber dropped? Or would have a beneficial trait even if it isn't related directly to the chamber the improves the hive... defensive/offensive capabilities. This could alter game play strategies to help get out of the typical MC-DC-SC rut. The team may find that though silence/celerity would be great at the beginning, they decide that the DC hive improvement (whatever it may be) is far more beneficial to the team... why they decide that may depend on their strategic positioning, play style of the aliens, and skill level of the marines....... just a thought

kyliegirl · October 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(killkrazy @ Oct 16 2007, 09:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1656251"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Great concept of the hive, the see-through membrane looks / feels nicer and more eerie.

but about the hive-like-tubes, remember a hive-queen's (or hive-mind's i guess) only purpose in the colony is to produce more offspring, remove the need for the queen (the tubes) and why even have it? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> not only that, but the queen would disallow any type of thing to preserve her own existence and that of her offspring!
It's imperative that aliens still spawn from the hive, that makes sense and is probably the easiest method to implement. adding the protective membrane around the hive will protect skulks mostly</div>

i guess i didnt explain it properly..

the tubes coming from the hive are connected to the hive and spawn aliens at seperate locations to improve survival.. if aliens just come out of one single hole after spawning they would have no chance of survival, the hive would know better and would have evolved to avoid such situations..

how many holes do you think are connected to an ant hive.. it isnt one. the ant hive is so large underground they have seperate holes in varied spots to improve their productivity and to cover more ground easily, and if the nest is attacked, they have more than one spot to come out of for an ambush etc.

a hives purpose isnt to only produce, it is to supply and protect and maintain, the hive is also an informative, telling you if it needs more recources or if its under attack. the hive is like the queen in an ant hill, it still has the offspring, but then the offspring are transferred to different chambers for different purposes. Therefore the hive is always important.

Valcien · October 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MagicElemental @ Oct 15 2007, 04:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1656092"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Of course not in the ant hill picture but the second one I see little eggs-like structures protruding from the ceiling. Aliens could spawn from persistent small structures around the hive in enough places that it would lower spawn camping, right now the whole random spawn on the floor looks bad. Perhaps the egg-like structures would be continually building up on the ceiling until they get big enough and drop on the floor. Most of the time they would be duds though some times the alien team would spawn in the egg droplets either while they were on the floor or about to drop. The egg-droplets would be impossible to see through for the marines, the eggs would be invincible and aliens spawning could only look out of them for a short while giving them time to orient them self then after a the time is up the egg breaks and the alien is free. Perhaps marines spawning in from an IP could also see ahead of time before they spawn/warp to base what their base looks like. As if the the cognitive portion of the marines got their before his physical for did, its sci-fi why not?</div>

I think this idea would work if it encompased the whole room. I think it deserves its' own thread. I really like the idea of spawning from suspended eggs, and especially the part about having so many, so the marines don't know which you'll come out of, but again if there is cover from say a duct or trench on the floor or whatever, it rules out spawning in there unseen, unless they also egg-spawned on the floor or in vents.

Oct 15 2007, 05:38 PM <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Steve0 @ Oct 15 2007, 05:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1656092"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>You wouldnt even have to change the hive at all, but just make decent looking textures and some bsp changes with dynamic infestation on the walls, with some doors (i say doors because alien can walk through a goo wall or something and marine cant without destroying it abit like the webs in Ep2 antlion tunnels). It would be alot of room editing around the hive.</div>

This Kharaa-only-goo-turnbuckle idea also wins. It provides cover, concealment, and a vector into the room.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wyattx3 @ Oct 15 2007, 06:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1656107"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>In NS2, it would be interesting to see the aliens actually spawn from the hive for a couple of reasons. It would end the games faster as marines wouldn't have to pay attention to aliens spawning out of the walls or floors around them as they kill the hive. ( And this would only apply when all the aliens are dead, or if the aliens that are still alive fail to defend the hive.) Secondly, it would look amazing. The hive would jiggle a little and the out comes an egg, a few moments later a skulk pops out of that egg and is free to move around. The egg it self could have ~30 health and could provide some protection to the skulk spawning in. As you spawn in as alien you view would be rolling out of the hive and landing on the floor/water below the hive and you could chomp out of the egg to get out.</div>

You're right, it would end the games faster. With the Kharaa losing often. I don't think the game needs to end faster at this juncture in the battle, because this hive rush situation comes up a few times, and doesn't indiciate a failure on the Kharaas' part. Almost every game is like this, with hive rushes ending in failure and the Kharaa coming back in the end to win (or lose for that matter). Also, anything to combat spawn camping, since it is 80% out of the player control and therefor obnoxious would be good.

Props to Max and Flayra, but I don't expect Kharaa bursting out of eggs all cool, I anticipate the eggs will dissappear abruptly like in NS.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cataclyzm @ Oct 16 2007, 12:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1656270"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>If I can add one more bit... what if the Hive's were to adopt a characteristic of the type of chamber dropped? Or would have a beneficial trait even if it isn't related directly to the chamber the improves the hive... defensive/offensive capabilities. This could alter game play strategies to help get out of the typical MC-DC-SC rut. The team may find that though silence/celerity would be great at the beginning, they decide that the DC hive improvement (whatever it may be) is far more beneficial to the team... why they decide that may depend on their strategic positioning, play style of the aliens, and skill level of the marines....... just a thought</div>

This idea is an epic hero. Does it have its' own thread?
Though, what would movement and sensory do? Perhaps increase respawn rate? Make the hive invisible both visually and to the commander? (which would nessesitate allowing the commander to drop meds in the hive and making scan area, traditionally an important counter to cloaking, not reveal it) Or maybe it could increase the hives' hivesight to show marines in or near the hive area to combat ninjas.

schkorpio · October 2007

great idea killkrazy, i really like the idea of the hive being a large thing with different layers and chambers.<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> The idea of entering a hive structure is just awesome!

what if instead of being a certain shaped structure though, when a hive is placed by a gorge - the room then grows with infestation and that room turns into the internal chamber which houses the hive mind and all of the organs, birthing tubes and a few different layers of mucas etc like in the pics above. Then the entrances grow into protective outer carapace.
Infact why have the hive as one big central structure at all, it could be several organs/brains linked with some kind of membranes and viens throught out the internal hive chamber. That way when you are inside it actually looks like you are in biological factory/control room.

As for the whole spawn camping thing there is already a huge thread or two about it - but basically the easiet way to overcome spawn camping is by spawn a large amount of players at one time, so they aren't victims of concetrated fire, one at a time.

Valcien · October 2007

Sorta like, if you die you can't come back until three other players do? How would you defend the hive in the meantime? Maybe if, after the count, you were prompted to hit a key when ready to spawn, you could delay it in time with someone elses spawn. Then if there is only one marine in the hive, you could go ahead and spawn a.s.a.p.

XeZo · October 2007

Cool idea and awesome pic kyliegirl! =D

Maybe if skulks hatched from the eggs in the celing? SO that when you were in line for respawn, you'd be inside the egg and being watching over the hive^^

This would also allow spawning skulks to inform the other aliens if a marine had managed to get into the base^^

dudepuppet · October 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kyliegirl @ Oct 12 2007, 05:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1655567"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>you gave me a spur of inspiration so i drew up a better pic of what i think your trying to say..

i think a hive mind will work perfectly with a seethroughish type of cocoon which protects the hive from direct damage from long distances, it would also be a perfect birthing spot instead of right next to a marine in a room..

<img src="http://www.opticpower.com/kylie/other/hivetype.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></div>

how did you draw that or is it jsut photoshop?

NEX9 · October 2007

thast photo shop and i acctuly lvoe hte very plain white erazer effect on the right side it almost looks like webs

killkrazy · October 2007

Kylie probably sketched it first then painted it in photoshop with a graphics tablet (digital canvas). or maybe not sketched.

Fellwood · November 2007

How about making it so creating a hive is like you do in NS - it spawns hanging from the ceiling.

Hold up, don't kill me yet, I'm not being sarcastic!

Do this, but due to some evolution, the hive is much bigger....perhaps roomsized?

Ok. Seriously though. Make the hive hang from the ceiling just as it always has, but in a bigger room to allow for a bigger hive. This would allow for some more intense hive battles - add more obstacles on the floor to provide cover. Meanwhile, have aliens spawn in the hive and leave through one of the many exits - either in the top, bottom, or sides of the hive. You can have some of the entrances/exits empty into vents to circle around, or onto walkways which cover from the floor.

This would also make hive access interesting for marines. You get into the room, now what do you do? Do you use jetpacks to fly through one of the entrances? Fight up to one of the walkways that leads into the hive? Or shoot the hive with siege weapons until it can't take it anymore. Or, perhaps with some advanced physics and mechanics...You could shoot out the material holding it to the ceiling!

One of the main things about developing an idea for the aliens such as this, is that you have to provide multiple ways for the marines to counter it to make sure everything balances out. With so many ways of doing things, the aliens still have to be on their toes, without worrying about spawn camping or long range hive kills. Also, it would be a change of pace from the narrow hallways to have a larger open room for the infestation to take hold of; to make use of flying abilities/jumping abilities - all while retaining the ability to obscure cover for close-range aliens with obstacles on the floor.

Just my two res.

Harimau · January 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wikipedia)</div><div class='quotemain'>It should be considered that the visible Kharaa "units" are actually simply the spawn of the real Kharaa (aliens) which are microscopic life-forms according to the NS story line.</div>
I'm pretty sure this was taken straight from the fiction. This eliminates the idea of a "hive queen" that reproduces a/sexually. So rather than aliens actually 'gestating', in the right environment (ie. the hive), bacteria aggregate and breakup+reform/produce the necessary proteins and such and on a larger scale, organs etc. I see it like.. nanites are pretty much all-purpose nanobots that can serve many functions depending on what use you put them to. Micro-scopic Kharaa are essentially the same, then, producing the necessary life-forms and structures and environments to facilitate their expansion and survival.

I think players should respawn like they do in DOD/S ie. in waves: "time until reinforcements: []", but it should be less restricting than that - like say, the minimum time it might take to respawn would be 5 seconds (you died just on time), the maximum time would be 10 seconds (unlucky..). Probably addresses a hive spawn camping issue, since aliens spawn in a bunch and marines won't have just a single target that's just spawned.

Sorry to revive such an old thread - but oh well, it was a good thread anyway.

spawnof2000 · January 2008

i dont think it would help spawn camping because you still spawn as skulks and HAs with HMGs? you getting my point?

New Hive

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