even tho it was locked
NEX9
Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44299Members
Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44299Members
<div class="IPBDescription">he has a point so ill bring it up nicely</div>This topic
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=102757&hl=" target="_blank">nsbad</a>
Well obviously it wasn't the right way to go about it, secondly this isn't a suggestion this is now a commonly known fact.
Guys look at how many people are spamming to join rines, this is ridiculous its been quite a few months into 3.2 and we know there are issues, we know rines some how have this uncanny means of keeping aliens at a distance and turning the game into a shooting galleria until they get 3/3. this needs to be re-looked into and brought back onto the table, I feel it, you feel it, they feel it, ship even I am occasionally joining rines as I am sick of getting wasted and spawn camped repeatedly.
Personally I think hive 2 needs its armor back. as well as maybe guns need their firing rate dropped to compete with the lack of speed all kharaa now have, which was a change to correct some hit box issue's. which in all honesty hit box issues aside the fast paced arcadeyness of NS is slowly being sucked away, hopefully ns2 will bring back a heap of the kharaa speed with out hit box issues.
Also I would like to see a slight change in kharaa res some how, ether a slight return if you die as a upgraded life form, ether be it a free return or get to your body before it disappears, perhaps a structure return as well if one of your structures dies with in X amount of units something similar to cloak distance some of its res is returned to the gorge.
Something needs to be done, I don't know what I don't claim to know what, as it stands kharaa arn't spending res cos it gets blown away in the first 2 minutes of the game totally wasted, so they run around waiting for some one else to do every thing till they fade/upgrade life form, to get some kills till rine 3/3 to die, to fade to die.
Something needs to be done to make hitting rine res more of a high point as right now its near impossible unless there are multiple life forms, which shouldn't be the case since a lone marines can kill a alien node in the same amount of time or less with upgrades.
I honestly believe this needs to brought up talked about, be it here suggestions or constie. It needs opinions as we surely all feel the imbalance.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=102757&hl=" target="_blank">nsbad</a>
Well obviously it wasn't the right way to go about it, secondly this isn't a suggestion this is now a commonly known fact.
Guys look at how many people are spamming to join rines, this is ridiculous its been quite a few months into 3.2 and we know there are issues, we know rines some how have this uncanny means of keeping aliens at a distance and turning the game into a shooting galleria until they get 3/3. this needs to be re-looked into and brought back onto the table, I feel it, you feel it, they feel it, ship even I am occasionally joining rines as I am sick of getting wasted and spawn camped repeatedly.
Personally I think hive 2 needs its armor back. as well as maybe guns need their firing rate dropped to compete with the lack of speed all kharaa now have, which was a change to correct some hit box issue's. which in all honesty hit box issues aside the fast paced arcadeyness of NS is slowly being sucked away, hopefully ns2 will bring back a heap of the kharaa speed with out hit box issues.
Also I would like to see a slight change in kharaa res some how, ether a slight return if you die as a upgraded life form, ether be it a free return or get to your body before it disappears, perhaps a structure return as well if one of your structures dies with in X amount of units something similar to cloak distance some of its res is returned to the gorge.
Something needs to be done, I don't know what I don't claim to know what, as it stands kharaa arn't spending res cos it gets blown away in the first 2 minutes of the game totally wasted, so they run around waiting for some one else to do every thing till they fade/upgrade life form, to get some kills till rine 3/3 to die, to fade to die.
Something needs to be done to make hitting rine res more of a high point as right now its near impossible unless there are multiple life forms, which shouldn't be the case since a lone marines can kill a alien node in the same amount of time or less with upgrades.
I honestly believe this needs to brought up talked about, be it here suggestions or constie. It needs opinions as we surely all feel the imbalance.
Comments
I really don't see this imbalance you're talking about, if anything I would argue the aliens are the ones with the advantage assuming both teams are players of at least some skill.
I have read this time and time again and I agree with this completely. The main "resource" in NS is time. I know I am quoting someone but it was summed up well with the phrase, "doing the most efficient thing in the least amount of time, while forcing your opponents to do the least in the most amount of time." The marines have a advantage in this department. First off, the marines are highly versatile. Any marine can do most of the things that marines can do, at any time. Any marine can build, any marine can fight, any marine can scout. Since most equipment is reusable , this also means that killing one marine is generally completely insignificant, unless you kill every marine in the area. Kill a welder, someone else can grab it and finish what they were doing. On the other hand kill a gorge and all gorge needed activity in that area is completely stopped unless there is another gorge in the area or someone wants to stop and gestate into one, costing res. This gorge dependency creates other issues, such as res. Take a vanilla marines, run him around to empty res nodes while the rest of your team goes about there anti alien duties. If he comes across a skulk or two that are harassing the nodes, he might be able to handle them, and if not, it cost you no res, hes a vanilla marine. If the aliens commit enough of a force to keep those resource towers from that marine, then the main marine force has the opening to assault and destroy a more important alien site, like a hive. Send a gorge around to replace nodes that are empty, it cost's you ten res automatically just for the gorge and if you come across even one marine in your travel, your more then likely dead. Plus one gorge is not likely to be able to replace more then one or two nodes, before he is out of res, BUT if too many people are gorges it will kill you as surely as having none at all. PLUS if you go gorge, drop an rt then go back, it cost you 25 res for 1 rt rather then 15. This means that RT's become to much more important to keep alive then they are for marines, but I think they are harder to do so. If a marine group of 4-5 marines decides to smash your RT's, you are left with two options. 1- gather up some aliens and go head to head with them right away to stop them from getting near your RT's. If you have played NS, ever, you realize that going head to head with marines is very, very stupid. Now you could take option two, and wait for them to get deeper into alien territory, ambush them and chuckle over their corpses. This is the current "right" thing for aliens to do, but it does mean that unless you control most of the map, your sacrificing an outlying res tower or two to do this. On the other hand, marines losing an RT is pretty insignificant, in fact become routine for most marines. I know when I play marines, every marine who has been a marine before is used to having to spend a little bit of time "recapping". Taking nodes back like that has become a standard part of marine play, and doesn't even phase your standard commander or hinder their strategies at all. Marines can also "steal" nodes VERY easily. 4-5 marines go out, hack down a RT in all of 10 seconds, and can power build their own in another 10 seconds. If an alien, or even a few of them show up to try and save it, unless they brought just as many aliens as their are marines, they are probably at a disadvantage, because the marines are probably going to be expecting company and fighting a marine who is expecting you as an alien is not a good position to be. So less then 30 seconds and an RT can change hands completely, and without much risk to the marines. For aliens it's a different story. Then only way to duplicate the feat of stealing a RT like that would require a gorge on site, with a couple of skulks all pounding on the RT at the same time. This is also WAY more risky for the aliens, because aliens are all about ambush, and by attacking the structure they reveal their location. Now, one or two marines can pop hand nades, and kill every skulk on that structure. If you had the gorge sitting around too, hes now in a really bad position. Now of course, there is an alien solution to this, higher lifeforms. They can take care of those marines harassing an RT, and can knock down RT's quickly without being too vulnerable. Of course, while doing this, they are also expected to be harassing all advancing marines, knocking down anyone with anything but an LMG, pushing any locked down hives and probably putting pressure on marine start. That's a WHOLE lot of pressure for a higher lifeform. Now, lower life CAN do these things. You can use coordination and teamwork to help further minimize theses disadvantages BUT the marines can just cluster up into a couple of groups and have all the advantages they need to accomplish any objective as long as any ONE of those marines survives and with every upgrade the marines get, lower life forms become significantly less able accomplish things, until late game they no longer really can, while the standard LMG marine STILL CAN scout, attack, or build because not every alien is going to be higher life, and they are getting stronger. For the aliens, EVERY marine is going to be fully upgraded to whatever point they are up to, which means that a skulk, even with all three chamber upgrades, is at a disadvantage vs an LMG marine, between his MS, his hand nades, his armor and his damage increase, he's gonna know where that skulk is (MS), be able to flush him out (nades), kill him very quickly (damage) and be able to make mistakes doing it because he won't go down very quickly (armor). Even a fully upgraded skulk is going to have a hard time with this, and would require him to be BETTER to have a CHANCE of killing that marine. THAT'S NOT RIGHT. If they are both fully upgraded and all circumstances are equal, it should be a fight of skill, where the better player wins, not the alien player wins if that marine is bad enough to panic and miss most/all of his shots or is already out of ammo or health and the alien loses the rest of the time.
With all this pressure on higher lifeforms to pick up the slack, to do everything just so the aliens can even contend with the late game marines, it creates a different problem. The loss of one jp/hmg, or one heavy/gl isn't that big of a deal, though it can break a battle and allow the aliens to win that one fight. The loss of ONE fade or ONE onos can COMPLETELY BREAK the aliens team and EFFECTIVELY end their chances of victory. It takes much longer for one alien to get the resources to get higher life them it would for the marine team to get the resources to equip a couple of marines. Since they marines can also recycle their guns, and seem to have the advantage in kills then the alien team (this is a PUB stat here), this means they have an advantage in res AND as I pointed out earlier they can use this res a lot of efficiently . On the other hand, a life form that's lost is lost. It's gone, their is no return, no recycle. This means that even though it's alright for a marine to have a bad run with equipment without really hurting the marine res pool too much, a bad fade or onos run can mean the demise of the aliens team, due to the large amount of pressure on the higher lifeforms of the alien team. Plus, because EACH aliens res pool is separate, it can take a LONG time to replace a loss like that, unless someone was ALREADY saving. This means many aliens have to spend a lot of time with their resources idling in the res pool, while a marine commander would get ejected if he let resources pile up without a VERY good reason. This means that the aliens are forced to under utilize their res flow, when they ALREADY are a res starved side.
With the marines having an advantage late game AND capable of utilizing their rez flow all game more effectively this gives them an advantage that, while most player's probably can't put their finger on, they have realized and thus have begun stacking marines more and more often. These issues are not HUGE. Obviously the aliens can still win, and the marines are not preordained to stomp on any lower life form they come across. They just have the advantage when doing so, and sometimes that advantage is fairly slight, but it's still not EVEN. I don't have the answers for these problems, I wouldn't even presume to give them out, because no matter how I think the balance is now, I think the Dev's have done a fantastic job with the game so far, and I think they would be far better equipped then me to fix them.
That's what I think, and I tried to back up everything I said. I'm gonna go hide in a deep dark cave now until this all blows over.
once marines take an area it's nearly impossible to take it back as alien... i know... i've seen them try <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Unless they do some sort of double attack where they have a decoy fade or onos attack there base and the other aliens attack the one area the marines are imbedded in...
lol, one time this alien guy changed his name and went marine, ejected the captain, and than he got in comm and started recycling EVERYTHING.... we were very angry...
No! You have to use Teamwork from the begining. As far as i see. From halloween until today, from 6vs6 to 15vs15, the best team is the one who is organized, communicating and is able to adapt to counter the opponent moves. Sometime a whole game is completly controled by the team that IS organized.
If you ever saw that, you realize that: No matter what, TEAMWORK IS EVERYTHING. 'Lone starz' are just dumb. I ve seen some hive rush that can change minds. Some much turrets to take out... but we did it !!! Because we were organized well enough to do so.
Meanwhile i agree on some points but i wouldn't express it like that. The life form problem is diffcult to solve. A fade that cost less is a fade that comes earlier. And that is a real problem. A lot of problems can be adressed but not necessarely with gameplay change.
I personnally (haha) think that some problems can be adressed in a simpler way. For example map can be modified to satify some little things that would help aliens or marins.
MAPS:
* Hives are FOR Kharras and ARE Kharra's territory. It must be dark and full of obsticles and vents to prevent spawnkill. At least easy spawnkill; ex: Nothing/Viaduc. But i will add something. A marin in the line of sight of hive should appear like in SOF. Just to prevent a marin to camp and hide using the obticles (crates mostly).
* Rts (at lease one) near hive must be easy to defend for alien (same technic dark/obsticles). Vents for gorge to escape. And the same for marins on their side of the map (space to use the ranged weapon).
* Marin start must be a room with a low ceiling (fade speed problem) and simple.
* Alleys near marin start must be straight lines. It's the marins territory. Veil has a good point on that. Unfortunatly Veil is not a Kharra's map...
It gives time to both team to upgrade at least to the first level/chamber. It will probably move the fights in the middle of the map which should be designed to give the upper hand alternatively to the marins or the kharra's (depending on place). A picture would be better but right now i don't have one.
It will give a hard time for marins if they can't get rid easely of alien RTs. If res flow, the 10pts gorge become accessible even if killed.
It won't solve all the problems but at least it will put some basics things that can help to get rid of the really annoying things. I mean a marins in a hive must get some shivers. An alien in the marin start must feel 'weak' as there is noway he can hide.
To my opinion spawn kill shouldn't be a way for getting victory. Because HL1 engine has problems, this is not a strategy that anyone can be proud of (I got the best shooters in my team...). Sometime i don't even see a thing in the screen when i spawn (as alien). It just fade in / Fade out... That is a big problem on HL1 engine...
I prefer to think of NS as a game where you can humiliate the opponent because you are a smarter TEAM.
This is a problem inherited to NSs basic gameplay.
Melee vs ranged weaponry.
<b>Skulks have to depend on marines not hitting them.</b>
Seeing an alien player spends about 70% of his time skulking it should become pretty clear, that once marines surpass a certain level of accuracy the amount of movement skill an alien player needs to negate that accuracy level becomes ridiculous.
Add that many servers are simply too big to maintain a usefull amount of balance. Couple with 1braindead alien player hurting more than 1braindead marine. (unless that marine goes comm:P)
Then there is also the fact, that aliens do also need to aim. It sounds strange for some long time players, but how often did you actually land a bite as a skulk during your first 10h of NS? Hell, even in my prime I missed about 1 out of 5 skulk bites and at least every third lerk bite.
This does not mean aliens are underpowered, even if they might be right now, it means that people want to easily rack up some kills and they go marine. Skulks are forces to be reckoned with early game if you dont rush(or if you are good you can rush and be effective also). Hiding and running out at marines takes some skill but it's not as difficult as everyone in this thread makes it out to be. Once fades get out aliens have a significant advantage for a short while if the game was relatively equal up to that point seeing as hmgs should be a minute or so out in the average game.
Just to summarize, just because people like marines because they are easy to rack up kills on does not mean that they are overpowered.
dead wrong.
pretty much anyone can exploit the invulnerability cheat:
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Anyway, I see a lot of huffing and puffing in this thread, but it's the same as ever: the game is asymmetric by design and that's unchangeable. There is no rock paper scissors to it no matter how much we try. To tell the truth, I think if you want the best balance, you'd have to try to implement an automatically balancing system sort of like the gun prices in CS are now. (I can't tell you if that works or not, it's an example. It's the theory behind it that I like. But that game is by its nature, map design aside, very balanced due to being all intents and purposes identical teams. Same with TFC.) I couldn't tell you what it'd affect, but that kind of constant tweaking could even things a bit more without the big jumps in ye olde "OMG NERFED" factor.
Anyway, balance always can use discussion, but it's getting so good now, I wouldn't worry too much about it. I recall a grep of server logs showing a damn near 50-50 split with a +/- 5% until you got to the low/high ends of server capacity, with there being much less discrepency at the high end than some people thinking. (And an anomaly at the 17 player level switching any trend that could be distinguished.) And this was done back for <i>3.0 and/or 3.1!</i> This was with between 6months to a years worth of data I believe.
I'd post those stats, but I think they aren't necessarily relevant any more. Anyway, my point is, ever since seeing that, I've taken every "OMG BALANCE" with a grain of salt. It's the sort of thing that makes you go "huh."
Now, those 32 player servers... egads, those are doomed no matter what you do.
Faskalia you are ABSOLUTLY correct. Aliens become reliant on the marines missing. Problem is I see no solution for this, because if aliens can take the hits, then they become to powerful. You would have to implement a powerful skill based system for aliens dodging, which is a serious revamp, that I would say is best implemented in NS2. There is also a good amount of skill needed to become good at aliens aiming, espectially against the marines who have grown skilled at marine movement, they can VERY quickly dodge several steps out of the way, with a bunny hop, and generally do this reflexively upon being attacked, meaning that even after spending all the effort getting into melee range, you are forced to reacquire your target and get BACK into bite range to land subsequent attacks against an enemy that knows your their and can kill you in the time it takes for your to cross that small gap, let alone land a bite.
The more player's there are, the more chance of winning the marines have. The more marines their are, the less their weakness's show. Marines are slow, but the more you have of them, the more places you can be at once. Marines have to reload, but if you always have 2-3 marines to cover you when this is happening, this doesn't matter. Large groups of marines can cut down a higher life form, even with inferior guns, in seconds, and waste a 50-75 res investment before it even gets a chance to fight. Large groups of marines can cover all the bases, spamming a disgusting amount of nades, and STILL have the manpower to shoot down anything that tries to stop it. They can scout out ambushes, rushes and hive drops very easily, just because chances to see these things increases significantly with more people. On the other hand, aliens rely on ambush, stealth and mobility, all of which are negated by larger numbers.
And for those of you who say "I play in large server's all the time and aliens win all the time." Yes, they win but I almost always play in the 10-32 player bracket servers and the marines win more then the aliens do unless the aliens are stacked. Not always, not usually, just more then the aliens do. I have noticed that alien stacking is not often seen as a stack because some stacked alien teams end up fighting "evenly" with marine teams. You might say it's not a stack then, but I say if considerably more good player's go to one team then they other, it's a stack, regardless of the outcome of the match.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just to summarize, just because people like marines because they are easy to rack up kills on does not mean that they are overpowered.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I felt the need to quote this because I think this statement isn't well thought out.
With the addition of RFK, "racking up easy kills" ruins the game by giving marines a limitless source of res for the entire game, in addition to what the RT's make, so a marine who rambos and kills a whole bunch of aliens makes the whole team a ton of res and even though that player did not contribute to the team so to say, he did get them a bundle of res they can then spend on the team. A fade or two doing the same thing will ONLY get res for themselves, thus upon their eventual deaths, barring them completely crippling/killing the marine team, the aliens are in a very bad place.
Finally, I never once said that NS was horridly imbalanced, or that one side or the other was a clear victor or loser. I said, SEVERAL times, that the balance currently lands to give the marines an advantage. In the overall view, the balance is pretty good, but it could use some more tweaking because people who like to play aliens are dwindling. It's rapidly become more of a matter of who is <b>willing</b> to play a aliens, rather then those who <b>want</b> to play aliens.
With the addition of RFK, "racking up easy kills" ruins the game by giving marines a limitless source of res for the entire game, in addition to what the RT's make, so a marine who rambos and kills a whole bunch of aliens makes the whole team a ton of res and even though that player did not contribute to the team so to say, he did get them a bundle of res they can then spend on the team. A fade or two doing the same thing will ONLY get res for themselves, thus upon their eventual deaths, barring them completely crippling/killing the marine team, the aliens are in a very bad place.
Finally, I never once said that NS was horridly imbalanced, or that one side or the other was a clear victor or loser. I said, SEVERAL times, that the balance currently lands to give the marines an advantage. In the overall view, the balance is pretty good, but it could use some more tweaking because people who like to play aliens are dwindling. It's rapidly become more of a matter of who is <b>willing</b> to play a aliens, rather then those who <b>want</b> to play aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Racking up kills is far from limitless res. If you are spawn camping killing every spawn exactly(once every 7 seconds) it comes to on average 18 res/minute. Wow. An entire res node from RFK!? Gamebreaking. In reality it is a small advantage for a team skilled enough to create a large disparity between kills. The aliens method of RFK is far far more powerful than the marines. Being able to get a hive up or fade at 2:30-3:00 is gamebreaking and it is possible with RFK. Those 1-2 fades will have at least 1 minute hmg free, probably more, and they will tear up marines that early. And once they die they can just refade while the rest of the team sits and collects RT res and whatever RFK they can get.
That being said I agree with you that willingness to play aliens is considerably less than willingness to play marines. I outlined my reason why above but I will restate here. Marines it is easier to become that godlike player. You have to be a decent shot and know how to keep stupid run on the ground skulks at range. When someone decent comes you retreat to an area where you have long hallways on both sides. This ability to be godlike attract better players since lower skilled players can't as easily achieve the high K:D ratios(I personally have to almost empty a clip to kill a single skulk) so they are less adamant about playing marines and go aliens. This is where the disparity between comes from, not a balance issue at all. Just for reference I dont think the win/losses of aliens are that bad on many servers(http://nsbadclan.org/stats/maps.php) 55/45 marines favored at worst.
Now the game I played next as Comm went for 52 minutes, just a little over. By rights the Marines should have lost about 10 minutes in. My marines tended to move in groups of 3-5 but kept getting ambushed in Flight Control and Mineral processing and the Kahraa were hitting us hard in Power banks from the Cooling hive which was there main. For some time I was hard pressed to get any upgrades done (first 5 minutes really) because I tend to rush phase gates for movement and securing hives and RT loses were being distracting. I was losing them almost as soon as they were up and never had more then 1 or 2 at a time outside of the base due to massive aggression by the Kahraa. They were working very well together in groups and there was 1-2 lerks who were doing good on the gas and fly attacks and cutting Marines down all over.
This presenting a very tough challange as I know fully well if I let the gorges start locking the map down we are done for and we will see Fades way before I can get enough upgrades to effectively resist them. Power banks was under attack constantly the entire game and the only good news was continued presence there kept the fades out of our base for the most part. About 8 minutes in I was able to get a group of 3 Marines with 1 skilled lad who listened very well into storage D and then into the hive (surface access). We locked this down with a few turrents and I even set an obs down as the Kahraa had smelter and they were moving very quickly.
Most of this game both sides had between 12-14 players at any one time and I tend to get the Armory upgrading as quicik as I can to have a good chance when things start going bad early game. About 9 minutes in while the hive was getting locked down the Armory was getting done upgrading and I had lvl 1 wep and armor and LVL 2 wep going. MT was late on my end but I spent a lot of res just rebuilding RT's. Now the good news I did have was my Marines were able to keep getting some kills which presented me with enough res to start getting guns down.
I got a proto lab down about 12 minutes in and have Jetpacks done around 20 or so. The pressure had been intense and we had 3-4 fades assaulting Marines everywhere. Flight and minieral were lost most of the game and locked and heating was pushed repeadidly by Marines from Surface but the Kahraa would rush it with 5-6 skulks and fades and lerks as soon as the RT was up it seemed. My Marines were doing good but we could just not sustain under such repeated attacks. I had most of the team in jetpacks about 25 in and I had put down a half dozen HMG's and a GL but it was all they could do to hold what we had and the hive.
Now once Jetpacks came down I saw alot more fades going down but Onos were starting to appear and make a bother of themselves around 20 minutes in and we had seen a few rush attempts on the surface hive. A lot of the kahraa attacks were scattered and there were always skulks hitting res towers so just keeping those up was hard. You might say why did you not electrify them? Well that's easy, I could not spare the res and half the attacks were fades or onos so that would have not done much for 30 res that I could spend on 2 more HMG's.
About 35 minutes in I had most of the team kitted out in jetpacks and about a half dozen in HA and almost everyone had a gun. I had 2 good players with Jetpacks who were always able to get undetected toward smelter or cooling but every time I got a phase up the kahraa would rush it, not just a few but 3 fades and 4 skulks min so I would lose a half dozen marines before I could recycle it. One of these rushes on Smelter really killed us and many Marines with gear were lost which could not be retrived. This cut the guns down a great deal and it was another few minutes of just holding off the Aliens. Twice they build Surface and the team would phase in, hold off the assualt and get the hive down.
Around 45 minutes in things were still looking bad. We were pushing flight finally and clearing the Rt's there and toward mineral and the aliens had really only had those and supply way most of the game but it was enough to keep them in high life forms. One assualt on cooling showed 4 onos right there trying to repel us, 2 had been wounded and they all seemed to have redemption however my Marines killed 3 of the 4 and drove off the 4th. However that did not stop the kahraa and they keep coming and killed most of the Marines.
Finally about 48 minutes in the Kahraa did a full whole team rush on Surface and took it down as I had only a few guns out and 1 HA suit and 3 Jetpackers. With the lose of surface and having no res for so long it was over. I did not have enough to get much more then a few HMG's down and one surface was clear they just rushed the base, they didn't even wait to build outside but did a full on rush with 3 onos and 4 fades and skulks and it was done in just 2 minutes.
Now a lot happened in this game and it was back and forth a lot but we were never able to mount a really serious assualt on the hive and a lot of that was my Marines were not all skilled. I had 3 very good players and 2 more skilled one but the rest were all Pub fair, good but not that good. My best Marines might get a phase in the hive but once most of the team phased in they did not wield each other or cover and were quickly overrun by a very responsive Kahraa team. This made it tough as we fought a mostly defensive game. Yes we did push on cooling a lot and power was back and forth a great deal. Also so was heating but really these were the only 2 attack points and with the hives so close it was always tough to hold. As soon as we would clear an RT and get a phase down a rush of Kahraa would show up and kill or route my Marines.
Now as the commander I take the fault of this loss even though I believe the kahraa should have easily beaten us less then 15 minutes in. I did not have many guns out and half the needed upgrades and no Motion track done. Res was lost constantly in recapping and the only thing keeping me going was kills. A full base rush would have killed enough of the marines and destroyed enough to give them Surface and end it but a lot of the time there were disorganized. That is until we started pushing somewhere, then half the team would show up. This was a great game though and harkened back to the hard fought wins of earilier versions of NS. It goes to show that in my opinion the sides are balanced and fair. Kahraa excell at ambushing and overrunning Marines. Should they hit the res hard and fast early and keep the marines on the back foot then they tend to be gaurented a win.
Good coordination and teamwork ensures this as well. I believe that I may have been able to pull a win out of this had I been a better commander but I don't use all the tools I should at times such as beacons and I spent a lot of time trying to keep marines in health packs and ammo and keeping them going. I did my best with encouragment during this game as I believe that helps keep morale up and keeps Marines going when it looks bleak.
I'm sorry if this AAR and rant got a little off topic but I just felt the whole story should be typed up, book as it is. Teamwork is key, always has been and always will be. Yes skilled players make a difference, but it is releative to the numbers they face. In 6 on 6 a skilled player can tip the balance because he may never fight more then 2-3 at a time. In 10-14 vs 10-14 then he fights many more at once at any given time. Coordinate, work together, you can take on and kill and elite player this way. Both sides can ambush and rush and do this. All depends but Marines do have an advantage with a commander looking down trying to coordinate. However as I have always said, A Marines team is only as good as thier commander, and the commander is only as good as his Marines. No matter how good you plan is, if no one listens then it doesn't matter.
As a skulk, on a typical server of about 24 people, I can pick off lone marines with relative ease and maybe suicide into a group of marines for a kill or two. As a lerk, I can gas marines but I need to rely on teammates to land bites, which is usually not achieved by trying to slowly walk across wide open spaces (Which is also the exact thing that half the skulks do). As a fade, I can get lots of kills easily, but I can't break a siege in a large server alone. My point is that aliens are actually more reliant on teamwork than marines are - some people don't realize this because all they see is the fade blinking around and killing lots of marines, but what really wins games is good skulk work - parasiting, killing marines that are pushing, chewing nodes, etc. I'm a good skulk by most standards, but there's only so much I can do if my teammates don't cooperate. I prefer playing marines simply because I can make a larger impact on a game as one. I can hold an area against three average skulks with relative ease, I can solo 30 res lerks dumb enough to straightline me, I can block a 50 res fade and get them to 200 hp before they kill me. As an alien, I can kill a shotgunner or HMG, and if any marines are nearby, they'll just pick it back up again, and even if they aren't, 10 or 15 res lost from a combined res pool isn't as important as 30 or 50 res from an individual alien.
Ill try and point out what is the best alien team work set up. I would do it nearly every time on nearly every map yet I fear it still fails.
Work in twos and three kharaa, run to a node one gorges, two guard, or extra gorge, at which point chamber that node up, cos or a mix of upgrades, the one that drops that node stays gorge long enough to drop a additional chamber all the time he has a sulk or two for protection, at that point swap rolls, you sulk he gorges drop some more chambers their, you cant advance unless its secure.
this can even be done at choke points, the ideal ness of choke points or double res'es or if you go to secure that early hive is three man teams, for double res'es one node and secure before second node, for hive node secure and one hiver sulk. for a major choke point this is like back door to ms linking to center of map and two route to two hives, top or west sky light ring a bell. wipe out a wave of rines then start your building cycle.
your teams are in place each pocket is great for ambushing / baiting into traps, but their are still issues, so far you have basically been defensive, but you have also required each other group to near on do their job perfectly.
in this case you cant leave your post until its fully complete, taking up the first 3-4 minutes of the game, depending on players and so on, if you do its like throwing a ball, once it leaves your hand you have no control over it. this can slightly be countered with a patrolling lerk, sulk crew which the sulk patrols the back lines, in hopes to find a lone ninja to mark or die to, at which point he notifies the lerk, the lerk seeks out the ninja while the sulk patrols the front lines were the lerk usually is until they can swap again. that is if the sulk cant kill the ninja.
so you have your base your bay, have done this many a time, don't leave it even if you have a rine run past and you know hes on red, cos you will ether die to the freshly meded rine, or on your way back to the bay turn to face another marine following the first.
in which case you again totally rely on everyone else doing their job.
2-3 OC's and usually a tail OC *note this one usually gets the kills, as well as a first hive chamber is usually perfect. given the area all have their benefits.
now you have a few options depending on player size, camp up your area begin patrolling, set up a ambush ahead of or in your area, try to move up to a new area usually in a linear map were multiple res nodes link off the same corridor, machinima rings a bell as does CC through to U-turn in eclipse.
lastly you can take it in turns with your partner to move up to the forward lines, basically one stays back upgrades sets up to ambush, the other moves to the front lines, when your Buddie dies you move up to the front lines, and your Buddie resurrects, runs to your shack, upgrades sets up to ambush and waits for you to die, if its a three man team you can slowly advance in this manner except you leave your shack except for a safe place to gestate or a new chamber from new hive, your gorge moves up but stays a few corners from the front lines and in turn you cycle your sulks while the gorge sits patently next to a chamber and is still doing his job, and is well with in range of adding a well placed spit or two if need be.
The issue i see with this now is motion, whaa whaa you can counter it with SC, its not the point noob. the point is with motion i have moved up above a door not moved for a good couple of minutes and still have marines claim to of seen and know exactly where my motion dot disappeared even tho they were on the other side of the map and have since then died.
motion gives away your shack location, your crippled in your advance with motion, you nearly guaranteed need to do it under a blanket of cloak or have extremely good patrolers, other wise your numberer's will be countered, and your patrolers require sporadic routes not covering the entire map the entire time, which leave a very small but still ninjarable hole in your defense.
and the worst thing that really hits kharaa in this situation is coordinating it all, their is far to much mic chatter, to make scene or remember every thing.
and this is still a play style that requires everyone to do their job like just about every other kharaa strat, cos the moment some one ######s fade, or you get people solo bunny hoping around your going to lose. the worst part is if you wait above a door to ambush some one bunny hoping is going to take your kill, if you spring the trap as they are Bunny hopping our proabley wont get a bite in, but your forced to jump into unknown numbers, if you let them possibly die, you know the numbers but now your stuck with a extremely edgy marine team, who will most likely check your door, when all you really needed was for some one to stand down the end of your corridor and bait some fire.
and guys your OC's are great serious two OC can provide you with a heap of kills in the first few minutes of the game, you wait to ambush OC fire marine wastes a clip of ammo or trys to run past boom perfect kill be her reloading or on no health asking for a med. but all the strats I have ever read require just about every one to do their job so perfectly, if one link snaps good bye aliens.
me personally when that fade dies I would love for his body to disappear and for there to be a little icky bacterium sack laying on the ground when I walk over it I get some res back like half the cost of his dumb fade ass.
cos right now its been the same game and I honestly don't know what to do, I go to any node any choke point nay hive, and guess what, ether a lone marine shows up while i am egging, kills my egg, or jumps me just as i drop node kills me then node, or jumps me just as i drop OC's that arnt built yet or chambers. where's my Buddie you ask, oh he just wanted to know some one else was egging so he can then piss off and save res till fade. hum say I get to a nice possible area to cap, but i set up a ambush, not a single marine will come, or or 3 will come and will be the only alien for miles around, say i wait clear out a wave, start building a second marine will jump me, but if no marines come, and i have waited for ages ill get down start building and get jumped. my best bet which i usually end up doing is wait till the marines pass then begin building but by then they have already caped a res point or two in which case once i build i then have to de gorge sulk kill res re grorge, or rely on another alien saving for fade, pissing at me to make chambers.
so bad luck or bull###### your call, i curse bull ###### every time, marines are just to fast and silent these days, I mean WTF your wearing 30kg of equipment on you yet you run like a athlete in gp's on steel grilling and are as silent as a ninja. and now your in hive camping who cares if thats one res node a minute the rest of your team has caped the map and sealed in the hive they are about to start killing aliens also.
yes it may be a pug issue, people may not know how to play kharaa, every one on the microphone at once is bad, but are all these thing adding to the pressure of being melee so bad thats its a chore to go kharaa, if so I think something needs to be changed. we just took a mobility nurf bat and now we are being walked all over. by fast aiming fast shooting fast running marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1652417:date=Sep 26 2007, 07:13 PM:name=enigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(enigma @ Sep 26 2007, 07:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1652417"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->pretty much anyone can exploit the invulnerability cheat:
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->ADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADADAD<!--c2--></div><!--ec2--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
More like:
Hop in CC
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->e-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
how about marines start getting drug ######ed, all screens bluring and hazy if they get meded to many times with in close sucsesion that will bugger a spamm happy com. trying to keep his spawn camper alive, so that his team can seal the aliens in the hive.
###### they nurfed gorge heal cos a single marine couldnt kill 3 gorges togther, yet med spam has always been as potent.
More like:
Hop in CC
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->e-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s<!--c2--></div><!--ec2--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it's far more frustrating to play against adadad than esssssssssss.
kill it again 3 res second win, sure again kill it 3 res second win. prahaps it should only be for sulks cos god know how much rines would be moaning and whingeing if a fade got back up for 12 res. i dont see why rines should sook tho kharaa are only melee, not like a rine that spawn camps never dies unless he near on skrews up or gets littral flooded while reloading.
This would acctuly be a nice not half bad suggestion if it was slightly nurfed, say some times if a sulk doesnt take excessive damage say close death from a grenade to the face, the sulk has the oppatunity to spend 3 res to get back up, in turn he may also wait for a ideal momment to get back up, and if he chooses to, then he may based on amount of excessive damage get back up at near full health, with upgrades, half health some upgrades, stuff all health no upgrades, or full health no upgrades but only being half a sulk, you health rapidly counts to no health over a 20 second period, giveing you that half zombie crawling on the ground effect.
so full health shotgun blast puts you on -1 health your choose to come back? you would have all your upgrades and near on full health, you may also want to not get back up sicne 3 rines are standing over you with shot guns.
your on 1 hp from dodgeing a blast you take a shotgun round to the head - 120 health your not coming back. hum maybe it was only a couple of pistal shots, no extra damage while you fall. -80 hp ok you can come back as a head sulk for 20 seconds,
in all options tho if your killed again no rfk for the rine but if you kill you get rfk. you have until your renforce que picks you back up, you can opt to wait and see if you want to get up drop to the chase cam, at which point yo udont get a second chance and wait to que as usual.
but seriously not do you really wanna play the but meds cost res, card, cos ill tell you how many times i have attack taken shots escaped to a vent and had to sit there for 2 mintues regening, with a sulk saying move i want to get out.
In honor of PREVERT-MAXIMUS, DREAMING FAIRY & NEX9
It is essential that Natural Selection be regarded as two entities: A model of economic development and a model of territorial conquest. We shall consider these two elements, first independently of each other, and then as points of reference for each other.
The developmental economic model that is necessary to understand to perform at the upper echelon of StarCraft players has its roots in the dependency theory championed by Jay McCullough, (Professor of Politics, Earlham College) and the naturally-exploitive economic theory of Rod Tyers (Professor of Economics, Australian National University) who advocates a multi-level transactional analysis of economic structures resulting from third-world dependency model subjects, particularly those with an empirical basis of over one-hundred to one-hundred-fifty years. If we consider the bodies of work of these two great minds, we will accrue the ability to reduce models of economic development, such as those arising from StarCraft simulations, to an analytical framework with which we can more easily construct a viable means of aggregation of utility whilst simultaneously reducing cost-defect application and relativistic dependency in the global economic theater.
I have had the benefit of studying under Jan-Wook Choi (Professor of Economics, The University of Chicago) in a class on political influence in economic models. Kenneth Rogoff (Professor if Economics, Harvard University) and Choi worked together to develop the first analytical model of development in potential-war nature-states without empirical evidence. They built their analysis on several fundamental assumptions. Firstly, they assumed that all players in the economic theater would act with nationalist egoist notions and would behave rationally with regard thereto. Robert Neugeboren (Professor of Economics, Harvard University) gave them their second fundamental assumption, namely that actors without an empirical basis will, in this case, act in not, as one would assume, behind a Rawlsian veil of ignorance, but rather behind a “veil of obstructive likelihood,†conducted by socio-psychological assumptions grounded entirely in analysis of operations solely with regard to linear aggregate outcome.
When modeling economic growth we should first look to empirical evidence from African post-colonial development and regionalism from 1850 to 1900. This time period allows us to examine the first independent nation-states of African origin and the creation of the first independent sovereign-governed forms of political operation. Simply the use of the calculus will allow us to examine growth rates as (d/dx)[f(t)={e^x+a(t)}] = [r(e)] predicts the aggregate inflation-adjusted value of the political economy. “r(e) predicts the inflation adjusted value as a modal constriction of “(S[(e^X),(m1),(m2), dt](t1,t2))(v(t)) - (a(i))†in which a(i) is a relativistic empirical dataset entered into equation using Simpson’s Rule “(S[(f(x),(a),(b),dx] = ((b-a)/(3n))[(f(x(0))+4(f(x(1)))+2(f(x(2)))+…+2(f(x(n-2)))+4(f(x(n-1)))+f(x(n))]†and (f(t)) is the adjustable (value x time) function for the developing economic structure.
If we allow natural constriction of the function an elliptical equation will be produced as the determinant function that allows evaluation of root function/root-means-squared functions. This curve may be rearranged to produce a modular form that assumes a theoretical z-axis of inter-variable difference with respect to time. This axis acts as a measure of functional disparity between alternate parity distributions of the primary function. Such economic analysis is typically characterized by a high level of theoretical construction, often yielding low concern to pragmatic dealings such as leading empirical evidence. This is a natural concern but modules in the function-analysis allow temporal manipulations of active forms in the primary determinant function. Imagine a tree with an infinite number of trees occupying the same space, with a finite set of possible variations with an infinite reoccurrence of each variation.
I stick by my earlier point that the game is balanced for the setup and is good either way. Kahraa need teamwork as well as skill just like Marines. If someone spawn camps, rush him quick, should you all die, F4 then. I don't like wins by spawn camp especially if I am commanding. It is just part of the game but I still don't like it. Takes all the fun out of the win with a cheap victory.
<a href="http://www.icantlose.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=15" target="_blank">http://www.icantlose.com/modules.php?name=...page&pid=15</a>
Just changed Star Craft to Natural Selection. =D
Let kharaa get back up after death, stated with the amount of chance and health as stated above then rines wont be spawn camping, and most coordinated alien ambushes will be successful, cos at it stands now. 5 aliens can all get into position coordinated, i mean pulling sulks from everywhere and setting them up perfectly, and all at perfect timing attack, a uncoordinated group of three marines and still have a high chance of getting owned. now what happens if that first sulk gets back up at your feet just as you step on his corpse, adds a whole new dimension.
a simple model of this could easily be made for balance testing purposes, if a sulk dies give him 15 seconds too decide to spend 3 res to get back up with 25 hp thats just out of red isn't it? or in red. just in red is good, leave him his previous upgrades, and don't award RFK for the second death if hes rekilled. If he gets back up give him 30 seconds to live, unless he can heal to full health. so thats 5 seconds to chop that last marine and 25 seconds to get to some healing be it dc, hive or gorge, makes more use of feild gorges, and regen / dc's and kharaa will want a second hive.
your trading you res in que timer, for a second win at the cost of res out of your own pocket, hopefully the rfk you receive will pay for this.
hum this is a suggestion now ill take this to the i&s.
but still the point still stands something needs to be looked at. spamming marines is a common occurrence.
Seriously, aliens take more teamwork than marines. On marines you need a few people that can aim and a comm with a brain and decent med skills, on aliens most of the team needs to be capable of thinking at a certain critical level to get things done. Marines can be dumb as a brick and understand nothing of NS as long as they have a competent commander and listen to him, its entirely possible to win. Without a couple of good lifeforms and some at least decent skulking, aliens are boned.