Bring back the perma gorge
pSyk0mAn
Nerdish by NatureGermany Join Date: 2003-08-07 Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
Nerdish by NatureGermany Join Date: 2003-08-07 Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
<div class="IPBDescription">Gorge needs more res income..</div>Don't expect another "give the gorge twice as much rez income from the reztowerz!!1" idea <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
I enjoy perma gorging in the current ns version, because you have to fight/support between dropping and building stuff.
You can make quite an impact in the early game as healing meatshield or ranged attacker, but the kills are rare and res income is slow so you have to stay in fight a lot before you can build again, which is kinda dangerous.
Imho gorges need a little more res to bring them closer to the old perma gorge many people loved, so I had the following idea:
I think gorges should be able to devour dropped marine weapons (except lmg and pistol) and receive like 5 res for a digested weapon.
It is always annoying to me that marines have so much time to retake their lost and dropped weapons, so this idea would give the aliens the opportunity to destroy some of the weapons laying around and the gorge more res.
Of course the gorge shouldn't be able to devour and get res from all weapons dropped by a defeated group of marines, so I suggest that the devour/digesting process takes like a third of the time the weapons stay on the floor. (Don't know the numbers here, but I'm thinking about something like 10 sec. per devour/digest).
The gorge would always only be able to digest 2 of multiple weapons dropped by a marine group.
Moreover the gorge has to be in range or even support in the fight to get to the weapons fast enough, so it is risky to aim for that weapon res.
Since marines just use 1-2 shotguns in the early game, it wouldn't overpower the gorge res income, if aliens are able to take them down at all with a gorge nearby.
There are two options how it could work:
You'll get the res at the end of the following actions.
1) Gorge presses and holds use while aiming at a dropped weapon and a progressing bar appears showing the devour process. The gorge may not move while devouring, which makes him more vulnerable and disables the option to devour a weapon in mid-fight.
2) Gorge presses use while aiming at a weapon and the digesting bar appears. It can't devour another weapon while digesting and movement is slowed down similar to the onos digestion.
Even this options makes it hard to devour in mid fight, because you become slow and are probably close to more marines with heavy weapons.
Numbers are just a guess. The res per devour and devour duration can be changed for the sake of balance.
I enjoy perma gorging in the current ns version, because you have to fight/support between dropping and building stuff.
You can make quite an impact in the early game as healing meatshield or ranged attacker, but the kills are rare and res income is slow so you have to stay in fight a lot before you can build again, which is kinda dangerous.
Imho gorges need a little more res to bring them closer to the old perma gorge many people loved, so I had the following idea:
I think gorges should be able to devour dropped marine weapons (except lmg and pistol) and receive like 5 res for a digested weapon.
It is always annoying to me that marines have so much time to retake their lost and dropped weapons, so this idea would give the aliens the opportunity to destroy some of the weapons laying around and the gorge more res.
Of course the gorge shouldn't be able to devour and get res from all weapons dropped by a defeated group of marines, so I suggest that the devour/digesting process takes like a third of the time the weapons stay on the floor. (Don't know the numbers here, but I'm thinking about something like 10 sec. per devour/digest).
The gorge would always only be able to digest 2 of multiple weapons dropped by a marine group.
Moreover the gorge has to be in range or even support in the fight to get to the weapons fast enough, so it is risky to aim for that weapon res.
Since marines just use 1-2 shotguns in the early game, it wouldn't overpower the gorge res income, if aliens are able to take them down at all with a gorge nearby.
There are two options how it could work:
You'll get the res at the end of the following actions.
1) Gorge presses and holds use while aiming at a dropped weapon and a progressing bar appears showing the devour process. The gorge may not move while devouring, which makes him more vulnerable and disables the option to devour a weapon in mid-fight.
2) Gorge presses use while aiming at a weapon and the digesting bar appears. It can't devour another weapon while digesting and movement is slowed down similar to the onos digestion.
Even this options makes it hard to devour in mid fight, because you become slow and are probably close to more marines with heavy weapons.
Numbers are just a guess. The res per devour and devour duration can be changed for the sake of balance.
Comments
I would definitely go for an improved web through something that actually gets tangled up on the marines' weapons with supporting animations to visually support that action. (versus the crappy "disappearing gun" syndrome we have with the current web effect in NS1)
If you want my opinion on how to make perma gorging workable and fun you need to focus on what makes the gorge <i>different</i> from the other aliens -- the gorge's role:
BUILDER & HEALER
Builder - make building fun, a lot of this could be potential from an improved res flow system yes, but there are other means too. Sticky chambers? More unique offensive chambers? (ie: a "barnacle" like trap chamber which only attaches to the ceilings) Using DI to take over map controls, like the opposite of the func_weldable?
Healer - get some other kinds of heals. Nobody would play a RPG where the cleric/healer class has only one heal spell of a single fixed strength. BORING! Instead consider a skill experience level (gorges that heal allies get better at their healing skill). I'd like to see some other heal abilities too. One could be a close range heal in the fire cone like it is now, one could be a wave type of heal, one could be an AoE regenerative type of heal, etc. And then perhaps temporary buffs that add to the tactical depth of the game, like temporary carapace against heat so allies can carge that entrenched marine position guarded by flamethrowers.
I like the idea of perma gorging but I don't think the idea of devour gorges is the way to do it. Sorry but that is not only totally illogical from a plausable backstory standpoint but it's also exponentially consquential to marines and could be difficult to gameplay balance ever as a result especially if we want to (and we should) have scalable, dynamic balance which adjusts to the server's player population size. You could rationalize doing this with marine corpses, but not with weapons.
I would definitely go for an improved web through something that actually gets tangled up on the marines' weapons with supporting animations to visually support that action. (versus the crappy "disappearing gun" syndrome we have with the current web effect in NS1)
If you want my opinion on how to make perma gorging workable and fun you need to focus on what makes the gorge <i>different</i> from the other aliens -- the gorge's role:
BUILDER & HEALER
Builder - make building fun, a lot of this could be potential from an improved res flow system yes, but there are other means too. Sticky chambers? More unique offensive chambers? (ie: a "barnacle" like trap chamber which only attaches to the ceilings) Using DI to take over map controls, like the opposite of the func_weldable?
Healer - get some other kinds of heals. Nobody would play a RPG where the cleric/healer class has only one heal spell of a single fixed strength. BORING! Instead consider a skill experience level (gorges that heal allies get better at their healing skill). I'd like to see some other heal abilities too. One could be a close range heal in the fire cone like it is now, one could be a wave type of heal, one could be an AoE regenerative type of heal, etc. And then perhaps temporary buffs that add to the tactical depth of the game, like temporary carapace against heat so allies can carge that entrenched marine position guarded by flamethrowers.
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I made suggestions on this before as well. I.E., level-able healing skills that applied to different life forms / buildings. Also, I suggested little fun things like alien "traps", various ways buildings could improve over time while on the DI, etc...you can see the other threads for more on those. The anti-weldable thing would be kinda cool too. That, and why not have gorgies be able to help more in combat with new healing abilities?
Should Kharaa have the ability to destroy/remove TSA weapons.
Through all of I&S its been rejected, their is even a stick saying DONT SUGGGEST THIS.
But I ask this, was the original idea gone back over when they changed the res system, was the idea revisited when RFK came in, did the devs ever question after realiseing 2.0 could be the last stock patch. was this ever a balance question always in the back of their mind.
Cos ill tell you what happens now. TSA get phase gates they get high end weapons, the only time they tend to lose a weapon is if some one runs off with one on their own.
You get a group of rines running around with 60 res worth of gear, thats a ono's almost, they get a phase they phase thru, kharaa come, fade comes fade blinks in 6 shot guns go off. lol dead fade, onos celerity rushes with carapace, 12 shots go off if that. onos doesnt even get a gore off. lol dead onos, lerk fade lerk gorge gorge. kharaa now have no res, rines have been stock pileing res and RFK the whole time since their last lump sum perchase, ###### beacon doesnt cost much. ok maybe one or two rines gets taken out, maybe there so much gas and some spit, prahaps the onos manged to sneak up cos of cloaking, stupid com.
Marines start dieing. how many of them are ether A going to get picked up by a second beacon to save the guns, or B will make it back thru the phase gate to safty *A few times I have ran thru the phase gate to grab a gun and jump back thru to base to drop it to a new person spawning to do it again.
Kharaa dont have the luxury, MC's redemp and hive movement only goes one way. Kharaa time and time again have to move through the map at increased speeds solo as their healers cant keep up their supports low on energy and their wing man "sulks" are chomping res. no fade survives blinking around a corner into 4-6 sneaky marines, they dont make a sound they are dead silent, the fade is blinking around sounding like a vortex being hurled at great speeds, of course rines know its comeing, ###### even Ha's are quieter than a fade blink or a lerk flap, what ever your upgrade choice is your upgrade choice and some times you dont have the luxury.. unless your a marine, then its only a matter of time to get everything you want to need.
The Marines ranged buffer will always be there reguardless of your upgrades and chambers, they are just as deadly in melee, as they are at 100 meters. when that fade dies thats it no one can get that res back.
One marrines die's some one grabs his gun, or at least his ammo, and the next rine that phases through he will get the gun of the last man dead if he already didnt pick one up at spawn, ###### many a time's I have died resed phased and grabed my gun I losted the life before. rine RFK, not only pays for meds and more ammo drops but at the rate sulks get owned cos all the higher life forms just got wasted they can now pay for seiges to get rid of the gorges on the hive and have enough res for two more attempts if some how they skrew up.
The worst part is they then have the ability to bleed out the game. with no chance of aliens to come back. forced F4
Slip the shoe on the other foot, if the Kharaa just happen to push rines back to ms and consume enough of the map, which is 2 times more of the map control to consistantly pay for life forms, as apose to 3 res nodes to consistantly supplie shoties and upgrade. they cant bleed out the game, every second they waste not in that ms chewing them ip's and that obst, is another upgrade another 4 med pack spams and a shotie for the next renforceing rine. Again as apose to spawning as the lowest lvl life form every time with a shot gun pointed at your face saying i dare you to go egg and try and fade in the two seconds its going to take me to turn you into a omlet.
Again a rine can sit in a courner shooting at as many aliens as he wants pushing the limit of his guns ammo, he can sit in the hive pointing and clicking at every sulk that spawns in, Yet in most casts the nature of the melee fade or alien must zip around and try and make contact with its target, the while time takeing damage, if it dies it doesnt get a second chance, which is why the fades ###### so if they do die they have 2 extra chance to get it right, yet if your hive is being camped you dont get a second chance, as apose to a freash rine spawning off one of multiple pads walking right back over to his gun and being just as combat ready and deadly as he was in his previous life.
Kharaa dont have the capability to throw TSA weapons away to locations they cant get to, destroy them consume them, that res sits active on the feild for said window until it despawns and if it can be reobtained by another marine its right back in play again.
I say let sulks jump into dead fade carcases and become the next fade. instant combat ready, like a brand new fade suit. or a new pair of onos boots.
<b><!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->Yes, Please.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>
If the 50res or 75 res lifeform dies, that's tough. I played a game on TG recently where I had like 280h-100a and was swiping @ a PG in double as a fade. A rine comes through tossing a handnade and BOOM--I DIE INSTANTLY. I swear that like 4-5 mines MUST have blown up simultaneously, but whatever. That's life. If you can't play an UBER, super-powered, super-fast, super-HP alien properly then you deserve in all senses of the word To Die (in the game).
Dying as higher lifeforms is fine as is.
Marines losing their weapons, is fine. Don't have aliens capable of eating/damaging the uber nanite weapon structures. lol.
I think initializing a capability for a skulk to choose a spot in the hive to spawn in would be Exceptionally Useful. Even if it was like A) on top of hive B) in nearby vent C) on floor here D) on floor there.
/ontopic
Having a more dynamic builder class would be...interesting only if it was balanced.
When I started playing NS back in the 1.x days, my computer was far too crappy to handle combat, or commanding. That left me with few options but permagorge. Thankfully, it is the tactical and strategic element that draws me to NS rather than the pure combat, excellent as that element of the game is. I learned to love the permagorge style gameplay very quickly. I spent a very long time honing my ability to simultaneously manage the alien team's scouting, defensive strategy, emplacement upkeep, and emplacement expansion.
There was never anything more satisfying to me than fighting the marines tooth and nail across the map, beating marines to critical locations and directing my team to cover me or distract the marines long enough for me to set up shop in them, defending WOLs and killing sieges and slowly pushing the marines back until we almost have them WOLed into their base, and then watching a squad of the higher lifeforms brutally crush the marines; knowing that while I may not have seen much combat, our victory was every bit as dependent on my outsmarting the marines as it was on my comrades' combat skills.
I loved NS the way most people love chess, or go.
Then the gorge lost its resource bonus, and despite the many other changes that were for the best, for me the game still went from "Pretty much the best game ever created" to just "better than most other shooters." In the permagorge days I played almost daily, even started to get into mapping. These days I play it maybe once every couple months.
I rarely see even a single offense tower or turret anymore, let alone a whole defensive formation.
Please, bring back the strategy.
P.S. Ollj, GTFO
I like the idea of perma gorging but I don't think the idea of devour gorges is the way to do it. Sorry but that is not only totally illogical from a plausable backstory standpoint but it's also exponentially consquential to marines and could be difficult to gameplay balance ever as a result especially if we want to (and we should) have scalable, dynamic balance which adjusts to the server's player population size. You could rationalize doing this with marine corpses, but not with weapons.
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Regarding your other suggestions I couldn't agree more, but this isn't the thread they belong in; open your own please, if you want to discuss your ideas.
Moreover your ideas would of course make the gorge more fun and interesting to play, but there is still the problem that you don't get much res and thus people, who don't join the fights, have to sit around waiting for res.
In response to this quote I'd like to say that you can just use the same backstory standpoint, you use for the onos receiving health due to digesting (HA-)marines.
Maybe though gorges being able to receive res from weapons due to infesting them instead of devouring fits more to the mood.
Since the ability of marines being able to pick up lost weapons is also exponentially consequential to aliens, which you can observe in many games on big servers, I don't see a problem for gorges being able to infest/devour 1-2 weapons that have been dropped by a defeated group of marines.
If marines are close, gorges won't even have a chance getting those weapons, because they won't be able to move while infesting, as I already suggested.
This would especially encourage all those gorge players, who usually just sit around waiting for res, instead of supporting the team in fights by healing, spitting or meatshielding, to actually move with the team and help in fights, because they might get a weapon or two and thus more res, if the marine group is defeated.
So this suggestion doesn't only encourage perma gorging, it also encourages battle gorging by giving players a motivation to join fights.
<!--quoteo(post=1636764:date=Jul 1 2007, 01:39 AM:name=teh_fatts)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(teh_fatts @ Jul 1 2007, 01:39 AM) [snapback]1636764[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I rarely see even a single offense tower or turret anymore, let alone a whole defensive formation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yes
<!--quoteo(post=1636764:date=Jul 1 2007, 01:39 AM:name=teh_fatts)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(teh_fatts @ Jul 1 2007, 01:39 AM) [snapback]1636764[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please, <strike>bring back</strike> <!--coloro:#AA0000--><span style="color:#AA0000"><!--/coloro-->greatly increase and diversify<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> the strategy <!--coloro:#AA0000--><span style="color:#AA0000"><!--/coloro-->from what it currently is<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yes
<!--quoteo(post=1636764:date=Jul 1 2007, 01:39 AM:name=teh_fatts)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(teh_fatts @ Jul 1 2007, 01:39 AM) [snapback]1636764[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->P.S. Ollj, GTFO<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yes
<!--quoteo(post=1636774:date=Jul 1 2007, 05:09 AM:name=pSyk0mAn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(pSyk0mAn @ Jul 1 2007, 05:09 AM) [snapback]1636774[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Regarding your other suggestions I couldn't agree more, but this isn't the thread they belong in; open your own please, if you want to discuss your ideas.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->-_- Ok then... what specifically and what title.
<!--quoteo(post=1636774:date=Jul 1 2007, 05:09 AM:name=pSyk0mAn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(pSyk0mAn @ Jul 1 2007, 05:09 AM) [snapback]1636774[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...you can just use the same backstory standpoint, you use for the onos receiving health due to digesting (HA-)marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really. The metal of the guns and the armor is useless for chemical energy. It is vastly more efficent to use nice jucy human flesh which has lots of chemical potential energy when released with enzymes in an oxygen rich environment. It's a simple matter of joules per mole. Hydrocarbons, fatty acids, and proteins are densely packed with chemical energy to be released when oxidized. Metals would be a poor source of energy (only energy obtained from corrosion) and don't provide the same nutrition to a complex organic lifeform. And yes I think the onos should get more res and/or health regen faster when eating a devoured marine. Digesting an HA should also take far longer to work.
<!--quoteo(post=1636774:date=Jul 1 2007, 05:09 AM:name=pSyk0mAn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(pSyk0mAn @ Jul 1 2007, 05:09 AM) [snapback]1636774[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This would especially encourage all those gorge players, who usually just sit around waiting for res, instead of supporting the team in fights by healing, spitting or meatshielding, to actually move with the team and help in fights, because they might get a weapon or two and thus more res, if the marine group is defeated.
So this suggestion doesn't only encourage perma gorging, it also encourages battle gorging by giving players a motivation to join fights.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Hmm, good point but I'd rather it apply to marine corpses rather than the guns. It means you don't want to die in alien territory. Also if a marine can get back there to reclaim that shotgun or grenade launcher he/she should be able to, it's a reward for the risk.
So yes to getting res from "infesting" or "eating" a dead marine corpse, no to eating weapons. It makes more sense and also helps the engine by removing old entities, and the immersion by not having pop-where'd-it-go disappearing bodies.
though I am not a fan of any of the suggestions put forth yet.
If the permagorge is simply a guy who stays gorge yes this was a benefit to the original game.
Someone who is focused on building up architecture through the level to support the troops
versus the occasional i've got the resources I will build the 3 upgrade towers. i'll switch and build a hive.
When I still found opportunities to play like this I could make the invisibility tower the first tower by starting with an envelope of invisibility and stretching it. In fact any tower was workable if you had at least one person stretching the influence through out the level.
This was what was always so cool about this game...you did not capture the flag (instant) or the point (5 seconds) you established position and built a mini-base. both sides could do this.
After reading the recent blog about scripting... I wonder how hard it would be to make a serverside script to restore the old alien resource distribution? or even make a marine-eating mechanic like y'all are talking about?
For the record, eating dead marines makes more sense, is more delightfully sinister, and less balance upsetting than eating dropped marine weapons. Chalk me up as in favor of that one.
It's not about marines losing weapons, it's about gorges getting better gameplay.
Getting a new balance tweak is fun, but giving the gorge something to do besides Suppression Fire Down a Long Hallway and play rent-a-cleric is a great addition to the game, that's what I was referring to for the most part. When a Gorge can pick up and absorb a weapon, that creates a New Class Feature for the Gorge Player. Giving New Class Features for Gorge Players is Good Gameplay because it makes the game More Interesting thereby letting it last longer, more enjoyably than a Regular First-Person-Shooter normally would.
It's not about marines losing weapons, it's about gorges getting better gameplay.
Getting a new balance tweak is fun, but giving the gorge something to do besides Suppression Fire Down a Long Hallway and play rent-a-cleric is a great addition to the game, that's what I was referring to for the most part. When a Gorge can pick up and absorb a weapon, that creates a New Class Feature for the Gorge Player. Giving New Class Features for Gorge Players is Good Gameplay because it makes the game More Interesting thereby letting it last longer, more enjoyably than a Regular First-Person-Shooter normally would.
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Exactly!
(though id still prefer eating dead marines over dropped weapons.)