Thoughts from a 1.04 Player Returning
Aea
Join Date: 2003-10-09 Member: 21552Members
Join Date: 2003-10-09 Member: 21552Members
Okay, okay, I lied a little bit in the title, I played some NS 2.0 (or whatever, the one that introduced the combat mode) and I didn't quite end up playing long after that release because Natural Selection changed too much for my tastes, I ended up leaving.
First thing I noticed is that I probably wasn't the only one, NS popular seems to have faded quite a bit since when I've played, and a discussion with some former developers gave me some input into the cause of that, but that isn't the reason for this thread.
The game is still fun, although now I feel like a nearly total newbie even though I've spent months on the game <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":angry:" border="0" alt="mad-fix.gif" /> , I've returned for about a week now and I've been getting a bit better, but I'm still pretty terrible at the game.
I had a few thoughts so I'll just list them here.
<b>Higher Level Evolutions</b>
- The idea of being able to evolve to any level regardless of hives is pretty fun, but the loss of some abilities seems to make it a lot more fun.
- The lerk seems to be pretty decent, but I fail massively at it. The flying is supposed to emulate gliding, but somehow you can excessively glide up, so it's all a matter of practice in being able to fly far. The power vs resource trade off seems pretty low...
- The fade absolutely rocks, have been able to get plenty of kills with that, and it's especially fun when you have speed and redemption.
- The Onos, especially with two hives is the absolute win, but I manage to get myself killed by going in heads first too excessively (The Onos doesn't seem like the invincible killing machine it once was)
<b>Traits</b>
- Defense towers used to be the first towers, now it seems like movement chambers are the most popular, could somebody explain why?
- I commonly get Speed, Redemption, and then either Invisibility or Scent of Fear, am I doing this right or are there any other pointers for me here.
- I forgot to actually get traits for the first hour that I played, wonder why I was absolutely decimated. I should probably also note that I prefer the aliens to the marines, and I've played more games with them.
<b>The Game & The Players</b>
- The games seem to last at least four to eight times shorter vs NS 1.04, in fact they are probably too short, but being able to play a full game with limited time is fun.
- Chambers aren't used as much anymore, in NS 1.04 you could commonly encounter huge groups of chambers, in NS 3.0 I've only seen a few placed to get the bonuses, only played a few games where chambers were widely used, any reason for this? Seems to be the same with the turrets, only see sieges now.
- The players are a lot more reluctant to try when they think they are gone. In NS 1.04, if people were losing they would fight back with all they could give, in a few games (quite early) the losing team would just give up, jump to the ready room or just kill themselves to get it over quickly.
- The players seem a lot more elitest now, NS 1.04 seemed more friendly. I don't know if it was just a fluke, but I joined a Tactical Gamer server with a nick saying that I just came back from 1.04. Four kills later (And two of those was me spawning in a hive under attack) somebody came over the mic and said kick Aea, and I was kicked off the server. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
Well that's it for now, any suggestions, etc?
First thing I noticed is that I probably wasn't the only one, NS popular seems to have faded quite a bit since when I've played, and a discussion with some former developers gave me some input into the cause of that, but that isn't the reason for this thread.
The game is still fun, although now I feel like a nearly total newbie even though I've spent months on the game <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":angry:" border="0" alt="mad-fix.gif" /> , I've returned for about a week now and I've been getting a bit better, but I'm still pretty terrible at the game.
I had a few thoughts so I'll just list them here.
<b>Higher Level Evolutions</b>
- The idea of being able to evolve to any level regardless of hives is pretty fun, but the loss of some abilities seems to make it a lot more fun.
- The lerk seems to be pretty decent, but I fail massively at it. The flying is supposed to emulate gliding, but somehow you can excessively glide up, so it's all a matter of practice in being able to fly far. The power vs resource trade off seems pretty low...
- The fade absolutely rocks, have been able to get plenty of kills with that, and it's especially fun when you have speed and redemption.
- The Onos, especially with two hives is the absolute win, but I manage to get myself killed by going in heads first too excessively (The Onos doesn't seem like the invincible killing machine it once was)
<b>Traits</b>
- Defense towers used to be the first towers, now it seems like movement chambers are the most popular, could somebody explain why?
- I commonly get Speed, Redemption, and then either Invisibility or Scent of Fear, am I doing this right or are there any other pointers for me here.
- I forgot to actually get traits for the first hour that I played, wonder why I was absolutely decimated. I should probably also note that I prefer the aliens to the marines, and I've played more games with them.
<b>The Game & The Players</b>
- The games seem to last at least four to eight times shorter vs NS 1.04, in fact they are probably too short, but being able to play a full game with limited time is fun.
- Chambers aren't used as much anymore, in NS 1.04 you could commonly encounter huge groups of chambers, in NS 3.0 I've only seen a few placed to get the bonuses, only played a few games where chambers were widely used, any reason for this? Seems to be the same with the turrets, only see sieges now.
- The players are a lot more reluctant to try when they think they are gone. In NS 1.04, if people were losing they would fight back with all they could give, in a few games (quite early) the losing team would just give up, jump to the ready room or just kill themselves to get it over quickly.
- The players seem a lot more elitest now, NS 1.04 seemed more friendly. I don't know if it was just a fluke, but I joined a Tactical Gamer server with a nick saying that I just came back from 1.04. Four kills later (And two of those was me spawning in a hive under attack) somebody came over the mic and said kick Aea, and I was kicked off the server. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
Well that's it for now, any suggestions, etc?
Comments
Tactical gamer has some rather strict rules about communication and teamplay. It's likely you weren't following one. (It can be hard to catch them all when you first join.) They should have told you why you were kicked at the time.
As for chambers -- you don't see WoL any more because gorges no longer get more res than other aliens -- so it's rare that a gorge will have sufficient res to build "lame". It's generally far more effective to have another lifeform instead.
What lifeform are you getting redemption with? I'd say it's generally less optimal for most lifeforms.
A lot more stacking. Be prepared to see games where marines have the same players that rush to the hive, spawn camp it and repeat. Then the server gets flushed.
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that was excessive in 2.01/early 3.0
now the aliens are that much stronger in the first few minutes so it isnt a problem anymore really
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tactical gamer has some rather strict rules about communication and <strike>teamplay</strike>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
apparently "communication" to the point of being redundant, as well as almost role-playesque manners regarding <i>The Real Way To Work As A Team</i> are more important than actual teamplay <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
all i can say is <b>nibz</b>
Let's see:
- fixed hitboxes
- no hive armor
- lerk flight nerf
Hmm? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
- Faster Celerity
- Wall Jump
- Smaller Hitboxes
Yeah
- Free Upgrades
- Faster Celerity
- Wall Jump
- Smaller Hitboxes
Yeah
[Edit] Wow, got some error message and reloaded the page and what I wrote came in double. In the same post! Cool.
+movement
hive teleport
tougher gorges + self heal
A lot more stacking. Be prepared to see games where marines have the same players that rush to the hive, spawn camp it and repeat. Then the server gets flushed.
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If you force even team, most stackers are crying out loud about the ###### server......
If you force even team, most stackers are crying out loud about the ###### server......
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you forgot about forcing cvars on players
communist
you forgot about forcing cvars on players
communist
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Ah yeah, i forgot. But as i like the 'even chance to all' thinking, it's ok for me <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Stronger... than before?
Let's see:
- fixed hitboxes
- no hive armor
- lerk flight nerf
Hmm? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
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Hitboxes were fixed, yeah. Skulk hitboxes used to be HUGE. They are harder to hit now.
Hive armor doesn't affect early game.
Lerks are still deadly if you use them right. You can't just rely on a retarded flight system to make plays.
- Chambers aren't used as much anymore, in NS 1.04 you could commonly encounter huge groups of chambers, in NS 3.0 I've only seen a few placed to get the bonuses, only played a few games where chambers were widely used, any reason for this? Seems to be the same with the turrets, only see sieges now.
- The players are a lot more reluctant to try when they think they are gone. In NS 1.04, if people were losing they would fight back with all they could give, in a few games (quite early) the losing team would just give up, jump to the ready room or just kill themselves to get it over quickly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IMO,. these are all the effects of the general movement of the game mechanic towards more FPS action and away from tactics and RTS. For some reason the majority of players seem to prefer it this way.
IMO,. these are all the effects of the general movement of the game mechanic towards more FPS action and away from tactics and RTS. For some reason the majority of players seem to prefer it this way.
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For some reason some people prefer to play in clans to maximize the teamplay and strategy in addition to the fps elements. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Can you name any changes that have really reduced strategical gameplay? 1.04 --> 2.0 changed the game but I'd say it allowed much more tactics.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- The lerk seems to be pretty decent, but I fail massively at it. The flying is supposed to emulate gliding, but somehow you can excessively glide up, so it's all a matter of practice in being able to fly far. The power vs resource trade off seems pretty low...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lerk is a support class. It can spore marines, decoy and flee allowing skulks to move in and also take out lone lmgs. Its easy to get killed as a lerk but its definitely worth 30 res. You can be very useful sporing around and when you're feeling comfortable with the flying you can go biting more and more.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Defense towers used to be the first towers, now it seems like movement chambers are the most popular, could somebody explain why?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are lots of balance changes affecting the chambers, but probably the biggest is the free upgrade system introduced in 3.0. Because upgrades are free, skulks can pick them effectively. Mc is a powerful skulk chamber with silence and celerity in it. Lerk and fade make good use of the celerity upgrade. Gorges provide healing with adrenaline.
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- The games seem to last at least four to eight times shorter vs NS 1.04, in fact they are probably too short, but being able to play a full game with limited time is fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Games have been made shorter but people also play better and finish the games quicker because of the better game knowledge.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- The players are a lot more reluctant to try when they think they are gone. In NS 1.04, if people were losing they would fight back with all they could give, in a few games (quite early) the losing team would just give up, jump to the ready room or just kill themselves to get it over quickly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again, the higher skill level kicks in. Comebacks are more difficult since people have better game knowledge so some people just give up. Comebacks are still possible but now it takes some smart moves before it happens, assuming that the enemy isn't playing plain stupid. In 1.04 most comebacks were just because the oppositing team wasn't smart enough to use the advantage they had.
"1.04 players didn't know the game as well"
"Comebacks only existed because 1.04 players were stupid"
I keep hearing those. They're completely ridiculous.
Funny that.
"1.04 players didn't know the game as well"
"Comebacks only existed because 1.04 players were stupid"
I keep hearing those. They're completely ridiculous.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, iv'e played since 1.02 and for one thing their was a larger requirement for teamplay back in those days. Required a good alien team to command a win, now you only need 3-4 good players on a team to win.
The commander on a marine team now just seems to be their to upgrade and give out weapons not actually command. Now i know this may be different for clan teams but for your general public server this is true.
Games now seem to be shorter and you don't get that feeling of an epic victory after a 2 hour struggle fighting over the second hive. On the up side you don't get the marines securing 2 hives and teching up for an hour to take the last lol.
Rant over... or i'll end up writing pages.
IMO,. these are all the effects of the general movement of the game mechanic towards more FPS action and away from tactics and RTS. For some reason the majority of players seem to prefer it this way.
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Here's a thought, it has always been on the same scale of FPS and RTS action. People just finally mastered shooting and lifeform usage to actually finish the games earlier than 1hour. I don't see why people see this as a bad thing anyhows.
<!--quoteo(post=1636905:date=Jul 1 2007, 11:23 PM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Jul 1 2007, 11:23 PM) [snapback]1636905[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
"1.04 players were lower skill"
"1.04 players didn't know the game as well"
"Comebacks only existed because 1.04 players were stupid"
I keep hearing those. They're completely ridiculous.
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You got it all wrong, its the 1.04 players that were ridiculous.
- Free Upgrades
- Faster Celerity
- Wall Jump
- Smaller Hitboxes
Yeah
- Free Upgrades
- Faster Celerity
- Wall Jump
- Smaller Hitboxes
Yeah
[Edit] Wow, got some error message and reloaded the page and what I wrote came in double. In the same post! Cool.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Well, if you are going to talk about that, then...
+5 marine starting armor
Jps did not get stunned by stomp
heavies were not immune to gas
You could stack ocs
Recycle was added
Hive armor does effect early game. It could be the difference of a pistol shot or not.
most of all, the change from gorge pooled res to even distributed and rfk, which made charging even harder.
Yes I'm sure you're right. It has nothing at all to do with the many game play changes, its all because everyone who played back in 1.04 were idiots. Makes total sense.
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<b><u>::</b></u> RTs and structures had more health which made responding to them much easier and more lax than it is now. If you don't send marines right away to an RT being chomped on by one skulk then the RT is usually down before they get there, if you delay it for a long time. In 1.04 you could take your time. This made the gameplay a bit slower, because not everyone was so frantic about responding quickly.
<b><u>::</b></u> Everything took longer to research and upgrade, and everything was more expensive. This slowed the rate that new technology and weapons made their way into marines' hands, slowing the gameplay and progress of the game.
<b><u>::</b></u> Aliens had their res pool split so that a good majority went towards the gorge. Combined with upgrades requiring resources to obtain, this made alien resource progression as a non-gorge life form slower. Lerks would appear later in the game and fades were only available at hive two - hive three rarely (if ever) was up, so onos were not a factor in the game.
<b><u>::</b></u> There was no RFK.
...there was no nerf to any strategic, RTS element in Natural-Selection from 1.04 to 3.2 - sorry!
Hive armor does effect early game. It could be the difference of a pistol shot or not.
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orly
Well, if you are going to talk about that, then...
+5 marine starting armor
Jps did not get stunned by stomp
heavies were not immune to gas
You could stack ocs
Recycle was added
Hive armor does effect early game. It could be the difference of a pistol shot or not.
most of all, the change from gorge pooled res to even distributed and rfk, which made charging even harder.
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what do jps or heavies have to do with this? also, marines got 5+ armor true but aliens have innate regen.
arguing about this is pointless cause its so ###### obvious 3.2 aliens are much stronger in the first few minutes than for example 3.0 beta 1 aliens were, or 2.01
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
The biggest thing that the new ns versions last is how long the rounds last, by removing the need for aliens classes to need hives, theres less of a game time. They took out the middle man hive fights and everyone just goes straight for the main base now. Epic long 4 hour games were so much fun <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> You could actually spend time building oc walls, or enjoy a good firefight at one location for a good ammount of time before the game changes again.
Marines get hand grenades, the extra armor, AMMO drops from dead marines...
Skulks, yes their hit box is reduced, but so is their 20 armor. It's not going to matter to marines that have ridiculous aim anyway; it makes their job easier.
Lerks eh.
Fade... +movement is a godsend, but how many pubbers know about this and bound it to mouse2?
Onos... paper.
Gorge...
It was easier back then to get RTs down as you could have one or two dedicated gorges to cap everything. Now all the "I'm-too-good-for-the-team" people save up 50 for fade and either die or do decently, while the other players cap res, which makes the skulk the rest of the time, which most likely turns into marine rfk.
And I've seen a lot of close games being slid by the marines with clanners on jps with hmgs that slaughter fades, onos, lerks, anything... Yea, jps are ridiculous in the right hands.
I'm not going to look up everything. If you want to, go ahead.
I'm not going to say aliens were better back then, but they sure aren't now. It really comes down to the skill of the player to determine if these benefits matter.
I know there were many turret locks back then and to get by them, you had to wear it down with spikes or acid rockets.
Sensory?
You're going to need carapace for your fade to survive those hmg/jp marines with super aim and celerity for onos to survive... at all. Yea, you could throw in poop with 2 dollars, but that still won't be as good as 3 dollars.
Yea, you point out some ways aliens got better, but they lose other things and marines gain more things. And lifeforms are even easier to kill now than ever before both in numbers and hive armor. It's far from "aliens get stronger".
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fade... +movement is a godsend, but how many pubbers know about this and bound it to mouse2?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not all pubbers suck, either. And it's not required to be mouse 2.
So you deny that marines could tech to JP (perma flight JPs) and HMG (full damage to buildings) and be in the building hive every single time if the commander remembered to push the upgrade buttons?
Funny that.
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Actually, it was funny that you didnt need an AA to get a proto lab and you could take a hive down with a welder faster than most guns.
Ah the good old days of the welder/lightsaber!