<!--quoteo(post=1627516:date=May 18 2007, 06:54 AM:name=nizb0ag)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nizb0ag @ May 18 2007, 06:54 AM) [snapback]1627516[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm sick of people calling it a glitch, it's not a glitch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lmao! It IS a glitch. It could be something useful like rocket/conc jumping in TFC but it's still an unintended glitch of the engine, whether positive or negative. How's it not? Please try to convince me then why you think it's not.
Also, this ISN'T TFC, this is NS. Remember, in general with NS, the aliens are the mobile melee units of the game and the marines are the commander-backed ranged units of the game. Aliens use movement "stuff"? Yes. Marines? Negative.
<!--quoteo(post=1628729:date=May 23 2007, 11:41 AM:name=Kisle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kisle @ May 23 2007, 11:41 AM) [snapback]1628729[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just make it like in HL2DM !! Sprint only for marines not for aliens <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, and aliens have +movement as their "sprint" or perhaps that's what +movement does for marines in NS2. (grossly assuming it's included at all)
Meh, why not make it so that you can bhop but only backwards. This way you can still be fast but you cannot see what you are hopping into. This would mean that using bhop to attack marines would need a huge amount of training (you need to bhop towards them with your butt and then turn around and bite them) and I can still reach my first rt 4 seconds earlier than then non bhopping skulk <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
I sincerely doubt its going to be a sprint key. They already said bhop will be replaced with a more intuitive system, but I doubt it will be someone as simple as a button push. NS is all about being complicated compared to a lot of other FPSs <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1625660:date=May 8 2007, 08:09 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ May 8 2007, 08:09 AM) [snapback]1625660[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> special was not removed because of its effectiveness for bunnyhopping, but as Bacillus points out, because of the many other abusive applications of it ( the detail of which I won't go into ).
But jump timing is only part of the problem with HL bunnyhopping, the other is about matching the arc of turn with the direction of movement. I don't think it is particularly hard to learn, I think that pretty much anyone who wants to bunnyhop can learn it given the right pointers. My objection isn't that it is easy or hard, and none of the changes we have made ( or can make - e.g. the addition of buffered jumping as in quake ) will change the fundamentals of my position: the movement trick is non-intuitive and non-repeatable based on observation. Apart from a few very smart people, pretty much everyone who has learned how to bunnyhop has had to have a few esoteric ideas explained to them. Be it the use of special, scripts, mousewheel, an external macro program or be it the rather complicated explanation about matching strafe direction and arc of turn to the direciton of movement. Oh, and unless I forget the most obvious non-intuitive aspect of bunnyhopping: do not press the forward key to go forward faster. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll let you champion my cause.
edit: I myself can bunny hop. I think it's on the verge of being 'acceptable' except for one fact - the timing. I can bunny hop, except my timing is off. It's not off like, I'm hitting the key a whole second too late, or even a half a second too late, it's simple needed to be timed within such a frame of a fraction of a second that I can't pull it off 80% of the time. I can bunny hop forwards, backwards, and sideways easily, but I simply can't time it right. That's why I hate it, and that's why it's annoying.
<!--quoteo(post=1619731:date=Apr 9 2007, 02:38 AM:name=Chocolate)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Chocolate @ Apr 9 2007, 02:38 AM) [snapback]1619731[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I've gotten used to people bhopping, its been there so long that its like a part of the game. Bhopping anyway is probably going to be removed because bhopping is a exploit (or something along those lines) of the HL engine. I doubt the Source engine carries on this exploit.
(I don't make the greatest technical made simple sentences) <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not in the engine, it's in the mod code. When a mod developer downloads he hlsdk bunnyhopping gets grandfathered from the basic hldm mod example code. The relevant functions are in pm_shared.c, particularilly the air acceleration one.
<!--quoteo(post=1628929:date=May 24 2007, 08:12 AM:name=the_x5)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the_x5 @ May 24 2007, 08:12 AM) [snapback]1628929[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> lmao! It IS a glitch. It could be something useful like rocket/conc jumping in TFC but it's still an unintended glitch of the engine, whether positive or negative. How's it not? Please try to convince me then why you think it's not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's NOT by any stretch of the imagination an engine bug because it's not IN the engine. It's grandfathered from the basic mod that comes from the HLSDK. Look at the air acceleration code from pm_shared.c.
Even I can remove bunnyhopping and framerate dependence of air control without ill effects; don't you think the NS devs could do it if they cared?
The only change NS devs have made to bunnyhopping is make it more effective by changing the penalty(see pm_preventmegabunnyhop or something like it. Yes, the good people at Valve have a sense of humor.) from setting the player speed to 1x run speed when you jump while going to fast to 1.7x run speed when you jump while going too fast(a buff!) and prevent marine bunnyjumping.
<!--quoteo(post=1629621:date=May 28 2007, 05:39 AM:name=Soylent_green)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Soylent_green @ May 28 2007, 05:39 AM) [snapback]1629621[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> It's NOT by any stretch of the imagination an engine bug because it's not IN the engine. It's grandfathered from the basic mod that comes from the HLSDK. Look at the air acceleration code from pm_shared.c.
Even I can remove bunnyhopping and framerate dependence of air control without ill effects; don't you think the NS devs could do it if they cared?
The only change NS devs have made to bunnyhopping is make it more effective by changing the penalty(see pm_preventmegabunnyhop or something like it. Yes, the good people at Valve have a sense of humor.) from setting the player speed to 1x run speed when you jump while going to fast to 1.7x run speed when you jump while going too fast(a buff!) and prevent marine bunnyjumping. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If it's so easily removed why is there yet to be one example of that happening in any halflife or source mod?
Hey, I get angry when I play cs 1.6 and people seem to hop around doing these "rus hops" going running speed almost entirely silent and then spray me through a wall because I miss the walk key for a fraction of a second. That doesn't mean I would want a cs where you can't spray through walls and where it's much easier to aim though. When I take a step back and think for a while I realise I don't want to play cs:s after all, that I'm getting owned just tells of the depth of the game and how much I have left to learn.
<!--quoteo(post=1629921:date=May 29 2007, 09:47 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Swiftspear @ May 29 2007, 09:47 PM) [snapback]1629921[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> If it's so easily removed why is there yet to be one example of that happening in any halflife or source mod? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if (pmove->dead) return; if (pmove->waterjumptime) return;
// Cap speed //wishspd = VectorNormalize (pmove->wishveloc);
if (wishspd > 30) wishspd = 30; // Determine veer amount currentspeed = DotProduct (pmove->velocity, wishdir); // See how much to add addspeed = wishspd - currentspeed; // If not adding any, done. if (addspeed <= 0) return; // Determine acceleration speed after acceleration
accelspeed = accel * wishspeed * pmove->frametime * pmove->friction; // Cap it if (accelspeed > addspeed) accelspeed = addspeed;
I think I can summarize this entire 6-page post in this one.
Roughly half of the people posting here want to keep bunnyhopping. They believe that it is either a great part of the game that would make NS watered down if it was removed, and/or think that people that can't use it are whiners / noobs that want it gone because they can't do it themselves.
The other half? They want it removed because it is a bug / it is an unfair advantage / other.
I am of the personal belief that the devs will most likely replace bunnyhopping with something simmilar. Other people have said that, as well. A compromise between the two warring sides. Problem solved, anyone?
<!--quoteo(post=1630309:date=May 31 2007, 10:15 AM:name=Moving_Target0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Moving_Target0 @ May 31 2007, 10:15 AM) [snapback]1630309[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am of the personal belief that the devs will most likely replace bunnyhopping with something simmilar. Other people have said that, as well. A compromise between the two warring sides. Problem solved, anyone? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For NS 1 the easiest fix is to just buffer the jumping for up to 100 ms or so. You're going to be a godawful fade if you don't understand air control whether you use it for bunnyhopping or not so there's not much of a point to be made there.
For NS 2, if you're going to keep the leap and blink or similar mechanics you're going to need a reasonable amount of air control. Bunnyhopping and half-life 1 long-jump modules are much like knitting; it's a great mechanic to involve the bare minimum of brain capacity so that you are not totally bored travelling or patrolling and NS2 will need to keep bunnyjumping or find a replacement. A one button sprint is not a solution; it takes no effort whatsoever and has no modes of failure.
i hope for a statement of Unknownworlds entertainment team. There so MANY bunnyhopper, that ruins the gameplay. I see a marine bunnyhopping. He are crouching in the air and wow he was so fast...i can't belive why the UNE team allow that damn glitch. For non-nerd bunnyhopping lerning players like me, this bunnyhopper sucks and ruin the gameplay. In combat its immaterial, but in classic i see some marines realy fly over the map to all hive points. There are so fast like a skulk.
but seriously, keep bhop in, at this point it can barely be called an exploit by the number of people using it. besides, just aim and bhoppers are nothing
Them not caring doesn't mean they are against it, not caring means they don't care. Not that I have any idea why we should count the number of respondants any which way.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am of the personal belief that the devs will most likely replace bunnyhopping with something simmilar. Other people have said that, as well. A compromise between the two warring sides. Problem solved, anyone?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> you call that a compromise? how about this: keep bunnyhopping for source. i dont know what the problem with shooting bhop skulks is because they are just as easy, if not easier to hit than walking skulks.
as for "bunnyhopping" marines: marines can only bunnyhop up slopes. so, as a skulk or a lerk, you need to be situationally aware enough to see the marine and the slope and connect the two in your head. in other words, if you think hes gonna start hopping up the ramp then act accordingly, instead of trying to bite his ankles
KassingerShades of greyJoin Date: 2002-02-20Member: 229Members, Constellation
I agree with Soylent Green that any alternative should involve a minimum of skill to keep it interesting. That is what makes bhop in NS1 so fun, you practice at it and get better, and you get to see results and advantages from your bhop.
<!--quoteo(post=1636310:date=Jun 28 2007, 02:56 PM:name=TOmekki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TOmekki @ Jun 28 2007, 02:56 PM) [snapback]1636310[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> you call that a compromise? how about this: keep bunnyhopping for source. i dont know what the problem with shooting bhop skulks is because they are just as easy, if not easier to hit than walking skulks.
as for "bunnyhopping" marines: marines can only bunnyhop up slopes. so, as a skulk or a lerk, you need to be situationally aware enough to see the marine and the slope and connect the two in your head. in other words, if you think hes gonna start hopping up the ramp then act accordingly, instead of trying to bite his ankles <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Note: Something similar. This means, you know, that source will use something like Bhopping, perhaps a little more smooth and different. That's all. I've already stated that I'm not against bhopping or for it. I could care less.
Comments
lmao! It IS a glitch. It could be something useful like rocket/conc jumping in TFC but it's still an unintended glitch of the engine, whether positive or negative. How's it not? Please try to convince me then why you think it's not.
Also, this ISN'T TFC, this is NS. Remember, in general with NS, the aliens are the mobile melee units of the game and the marines are the commander-backed ranged units of the game. Aliens use movement "stuff"? Yes. Marines? Negative.
<!--quoteo(post=1628729:date=May 23 2007, 11:41 AM:name=Kisle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kisle @ May 23 2007, 11:41 AM) [snapback]1628729[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just make it like in HL2DM !!
Sprint only for marines not for aliens
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, and aliens have +movement as their "sprint" or perhaps that's what +movement does for marines in NS2. (grossly assuming it's included at all)
special was not removed because of its effectiveness for bunnyhopping, but as Bacillus points out, because of the many other abusive applications of it ( the detail of which I won't go into ).
But jump timing is only part of the problem with HL bunnyhopping, the other is about matching the arc of turn with the direction of movement. I don't think it is particularly hard to learn, I think that pretty much anyone who wants to bunnyhop can learn it given the right pointers. My objection isn't that it is easy or hard, and none of the changes we have made ( or can make - e.g. the addition of buffered jumping as in quake ) will change the fundamentals of my position: the movement trick is non-intuitive and non-repeatable based on observation. Apart from a few very smart people, pretty much everyone who has learned how to bunnyhop has had to have a few esoteric ideas explained to them. Be it the use of special, scripts, mousewheel, an external macro program or be it the rather complicated explanation about matching strafe direction and arc of turn to the direciton of movement. Oh, and unless I forget the most obvious non-intuitive aspect of bunnyhopping: do not press the forward key to go forward faster.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll let you champion my cause.
edit: I myself can bunny hop. I think it's on the verge of being 'acceptable' except for one fact - the timing. I can bunny hop, except my timing is off. It's not off like, I'm hitting the key a whole second too late, or even a half a second too late, it's simple needed to be timed within such a frame of a fraction of a second that I can't pull it off 80% of the time. I can bunny hop forwards, backwards, and sideways easily, but I simply can't time it right. That's why I hate it, and that's why it's annoying.
I've gotten used to people bhopping, its been there so long that its like a part of the game. Bhopping anyway is probably going to be removed because bhopping is a exploit (or something along those lines) of the HL engine. I doubt the Source engine carries on this exploit.
(I don't make the greatest technical made simple sentences)
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not in the engine, it's in the mod code. When a mod developer downloads he hlsdk bunnyhopping gets grandfathered from the basic hldm mod example code. The relevant functions are in pm_shared.c, particularilly the air acceleration one.
lmao! It IS a glitch. It could be something useful like rocket/conc jumping in TFC but it's still an unintended glitch of the engine, whether positive or negative. How's it not? Please try to convince me then why you think it's not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's NOT by any stretch of the imagination an engine bug because it's not IN the engine. It's grandfathered from the basic mod that comes from the HLSDK. Look at the air acceleration code from pm_shared.c.
Even I can remove bunnyhopping and framerate dependence of air control without ill effects; don't you think the NS devs could do it if they cared?
The only change NS devs have made to bunnyhopping is make it more effective by changing the penalty(see pm_preventmegabunnyhop or something like it. Yes, the good people at Valve have a sense of humor.) from setting the player speed to 1x run speed when you jump while going to fast to 1.7x run speed when you jump while going too fast(a buff!) and prevent marine bunnyjumping.
It's NOT by any stretch of the imagination an engine bug because it's not IN the engine. It's grandfathered from the basic mod that comes from the HLSDK. Look at the air acceleration code from pm_shared.c.
Even I can remove bunnyhopping and framerate dependence of air control without ill effects; don't you think the NS devs could do it if they cared?
The only change NS devs have made to bunnyhopping is make it more effective by changing the penalty(see pm_preventmegabunnyhop or something like it. Yes, the good people at Valve have a sense of humor.) from setting the player speed to 1x run speed when you jump while going to fast to 1.7x run speed when you jump while going too fast(a buff!) and prevent marine bunnyjumping.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If it's so easily removed why is there yet to be one example of that happening in any halflife or source mod?
If it's so easily removed why is there yet to be one example of that happening in any halflife or source mod?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From pm_shared.c:
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->void PM_AirAccelerate (vec3_t wishdir, float wishspeed, float accel)
{
int i;
float addspeed, accelspeed, currentspeed, wishspd = wishspeed;
if (pmove->dead)
return;
if (pmove->waterjumptime)
return;
// Cap speed
//wishspd = VectorNormalize (pmove->wishveloc);
if (wishspd > 30)
wishspd = 30;
// Determine veer amount
currentspeed = DotProduct (pmove->velocity, wishdir);
// See how much to add
addspeed = wishspd - currentspeed;
// If not adding any, done.
if (addspeed <= 0)
return;
// Determine acceleration speed after acceleration
accelspeed = accel * wishspeed * pmove->frametime * pmove->friction;
// Cap it
if (accelspeed > addspeed)
accelspeed = addspeed;
// Adjust pmove vel.
for (i=0; i<3; i++)
{
pmove->velocity[i] += accelspeed*wishdir[i];
}
}<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
A fix doesn't need to be more than a few lines.
Something like:
At top of function: float fOldSpeed = Length(pmove->velocity);
At bottom of function:
float fNewSpeed = Length( pmove->velocity );
if ( fNewSpeed > max_run_speed && fNewSpeed > fOldSpeed )
{
VectorScale( pmove->velocity, fOldSpeed/fNewSpeed, pmove->velocity );
}
It took me a whole of 10 minutes to write this code.
Wallstrafing/wriggle walking are slightly trickier to fix, but they're easily accessible too.
Roughly half of the people posting here want to keep bunnyhopping. They believe that it is either a great part of the game that would make NS watered down if it was removed, and/or think that people that can't use it are whiners / noobs that want it gone because they can't do it themselves.
The other half? They want it removed because it is a bug / it is an unfair advantage / other.
I am of the personal belief that the devs will most likely replace bunnyhopping with something simmilar. Other people have said that, as well. A compromise between the two warring sides. Problem solved, anyone?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For NS 1 the easiest fix is to just buffer the jumping for up to 100 ms or so. You're going to be a godawful fade if you don't understand air control whether you use it for bunnyhopping or not so there's not much of a point to be made there.
For NS 2, if you're going to keep the leap and blink or similar mechanics you're going to need a reasonable amount of air control. Bunnyhopping and half-life 1 long-jump modules are much like knitting; it's a great mechanic to involve the bare minimum of brain capacity so that you are not totally bored travelling or patrolling and NS2 will need to keep bunnyjumping or find a replacement. A one button sprint is not a solution; it takes no effort whatsoever and has no modes of failure.
There so MANY bunnyhopper, that ruins the gameplay.
I see a marine bunnyhopping.
He are crouching in the air and wow he was so fast...i can't belive why the UNE team allow that damn glitch.
For non-nerd bunnyhopping lerning players like me, this bunnyhopper sucks and ruin the gameplay.
In combat its immaterial, but in classic i see some marines realy fly over the map to all hive points.
There are so fast like a skulk.
but seriously, keep bhop in, at this point it can barely be called an exploit by the number of people using it. besides, just aim and bhoppers are nothing
Nice polemics though.
you call that a compromise? how about this: keep bunnyhopping for source. i dont know what the problem with shooting bhop skulks is because they are just as easy, if not easier to hit than walking skulks.
as for "bunnyhopping" marines: marines can only bunnyhop up slopes. so, as a skulk or a lerk, you need to be situationally aware enough to see the marine and the slope and connect the two in your head. in other words, if you think hes gonna start hopping up the ramp then act accordingly, instead of trying to bite his ankles
you call that a compromise? how about this: keep bunnyhopping for source. i dont know what the problem with shooting bhop skulks is because they are just as easy, if not easier to hit than walking skulks.
as for "bunnyhopping" marines: marines can only bunnyhop up slopes. so, as a skulk or a lerk, you need to be situationally aware enough to see the marine and the slope and connect the two in your head. in other words, if you think hes gonna start hopping up the ramp then act accordingly, instead of trying to bite his ankles
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Note: Something similar. This means, you know, that source will use something like Bhopping, perhaps a little more smooth and different. That's all. I've already stated that I'm not against bhopping or for it. I could care less.