Perhaps why we liked 1.04 so much?
DC_Darkling
Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
<div class="IPBDescription">well..</div>we have been playing 1.04 lately, well some of us, and it brought up memories.. And I think I might have a fun ideas why it was more 'cool and epic'. I aint saying change, or w/e.. I am simply stating what I think might cause this.
First big change is the map. There were no maps (my brain messed up I rememebr it was just kharaa haha). Anywayz, we have noone. Even the minimap for rines is near worthless. So why does this 'help'? Well, its cool to check ya map and see stuff happening, and it helps to react but what does it also do?
* take less team effort (less informing each other). This works for both sides
* you HAD to look @ hivesight and were forces to learn it fast. (I used to learn maps by keeping a eye on all 3 hive locations)
* harder to hide, since the map might show you
* harder to ambush even against MT. (this is clearly shown in combat where there is no map)
* takes WAY less effort to learn maps. reducing atmosphere. (hey, I remember taking weeks to learn every inch of nancy but it was so ubercool)
Second thing which also increased skill but downgraded fun was flashlight for kharaa.. Sure I use it nonstop, if I don't I tend to suck more. But it has great influence on gameplay.
* again less hiding, when you lit up like a xmas tree you won't be able to hide well.
* easier to single out rines against the background.
* you can partially look through structures
Another point (omg lag) was that alot was bigger. Bigger chambers, I think I remember the lerk also being bigger. Another part of atmosphere. Needless to say it aint now.
And I also liked the distinct sounds alot had. The OCs sounds from 1.04 were always cooler then they are now I think.
Anywayz, just my ideas.. I aint saying/asking to change anything, just stating I think this is the reason why it was cool, or atleast added to the cool effect
First big change is the map. There were no maps (my brain messed up I rememebr it was just kharaa haha). Anywayz, we have noone. Even the minimap for rines is near worthless. So why does this 'help'? Well, its cool to check ya map and see stuff happening, and it helps to react but what does it also do?
* take less team effort (less informing each other). This works for both sides
* you HAD to look @ hivesight and were forces to learn it fast. (I used to learn maps by keeping a eye on all 3 hive locations)
* harder to hide, since the map might show you
* harder to ambush even against MT. (this is clearly shown in combat where there is no map)
* takes WAY less effort to learn maps. reducing atmosphere. (hey, I remember taking weeks to learn every inch of nancy but it was so ubercool)
Second thing which also increased skill but downgraded fun was flashlight for kharaa.. Sure I use it nonstop, if I don't I tend to suck more. But it has great influence on gameplay.
* again less hiding, when you lit up like a xmas tree you won't be able to hide well.
* easier to single out rines against the background.
* you can partially look through structures
Another point (omg lag) was that alot was bigger. Bigger chambers, I think I remember the lerk also being bigger. Another part of atmosphere. Needless to say it aint now.
And I also liked the distinct sounds alot had. The OCs sounds from 1.04 were always cooler then they are now I think.
Anywayz, just my ideas.. I aint saying/asking to change anything, just stating I think this is the reason why it was cool, or atleast added to the cool effect
Comments
Also the sounds and sizes for 1.04 are much more "scary" than they are now. I remember seeing an OC in 1.04 being the same size as me. When it attacked me it made a noise that scared me as much as seeing an Onos for the first time. When I pulled out my pistol and shot a couple of rounds, all I said was "damn, thats a REAL pistol".
What I'm trying to say is that during my revisit to 1.04 I had an experience of NS that I've never had for years. As I've said before, there is some type of "fun" factor attached with 1.04 that 3.2 just can't bring. NS 3.2 might be more competitive, balanced and functionable but 1.04 is more memorable and funny (mine carpets and OC walls that do nothing).
Basically, even without playing 1.04 in at least a 6 vs 6 match, I can understand more than ever why people loved NS 1.04 so much. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
1.04 wasn't better than 3.2, it was nostalgia. If you want the old sounds, then copy them over to 3.2 and use them, like I am now.
I think I agree with you Darkling on what makes 1.04 fun. But the only thing I would want in the current version is some of the 1.04 sounds.
The mini map didn't remove any depth. It removed confusion. What the hell was deep about a game with no map?
1.04 wasn't better than 3.2, it was nostalgia. If you want the old sounds, then copy them over to 3.2 and use them, like I am now.
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Well confusion and depth are closely related in this situation. If you learn the map and know certain topographical constraints that each area presents while also knowing how to get from location A to B the fastest, you have an advantage over others. Unless if I'm wrong for any reason, I think no minimap would give more depth for that simple reason.
NOTE: I'm NOT saying we should remove the minimap, I'm just drawing a comparison.
I aint saying change, let others do that i needed, i simply say it is ow it is
And sounds, well I don't really remember the sounds but it's just a matter of taste.
I'm not against removing the minimap for aliens. They do have hivesight. Then again I do really enjoy using the map to know what's happening anywhere on the map.
I'm not sure, I prefer larger chambers, it's stupid that you can just jump over OC's.
And sounds, well I don't really remember the sounds but it's just a matter of taste.
I'm not against removing the minimap for aliens. They do have hivesight. Then again I do really enjoy using the map to know what's happening anywhere on the map.
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I agree, I would like bigger chambers because it only makes more sence to have a big chamber rather than a tiny little speedbump sized chambers. Also I know that if the NS devs were to ever remove the minimap, there would be a backlash from most pubbers, so it ain't gonna happen <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />.
The sounds of NS 1.04 are basically the same except I find some of the alien sounds (namely the OC firing) are "scarier" and makes the game feel more immersive for me.
Concerning the minimap, I wholeheartedly agree that 1.04 feels better because it doesn't work well. Why? I think part of it is that with the minimap one tends to look at it and just go rather than paying attention to surroundings. There are a couple of ways to make it less useless, and make the minimap in 3.2 less atmospheric killing. You all know aliens, how about displaying the minimap in blips... like every 1/2 second with a sound the minimap is viewable from center out.. then goes to black, and repeat. So its not a constant map, but you still have access to the map... I dont know, but I like the play better with the minimap off.
Concerning the sounds- yes! 1.04 sounds were more interesting. The OC sound was great, and some of the weapons/other marine sounds were cool too. Some needed fixing, clearly, but a lot of them were better the first time around.
Concerning the buildings... bigger is better! The big OC/chambers and the big turrets showed off their power and their cost to the team. Big was cool, now they are so small its like walking through a parking lot of golf carts instead of cars. Make them important and big, grand is good!
Few other notes- Why on earth did the Command chair closing animation go away? It is awesome when its on in 1.04...
Sorry, but I like the omni lerk look- the flight model is still messed up, stays up too long and first jump is insane, but the concept of rotating in air while gliding is cool and with the flight dynamics of 3.2 with the omni mode of 1.04 it would be awesome.
Im sure there are others i am not remembering atm, but comment on those!
I'm not saying you want to change anything. I'm discussing a point that you've brought up on an internet forum made for discussion, and I am debating it with you - I am telling you that you're wrong. Here, watch:
<!--QuoteBegin-DC Darkling+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DC Darkling)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->* take less team effort (less informing each other). This works for both sides
* you HAD to look @ hivesight and were forces to learn it fast. (I used to learn maps by keeping a eye on all 3 hive locations)
* harder to hide, since the map might show you
* harder to ambush even against MT. (this is clearly shown in combat where there is no map)
* takes WAY less effort to learn maps. reducing atmosphere. (hey, I remember taking weeks to learn every inch of nancy but it was so ubercool)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
-You still "HAVE" to look at hivesight to figure out what's going on. Parasite and scent of fear do not show up on the map, which are two of the aliens' biggest helpers when it comes to actually having a vague idea of who is doing what. Finding out where your teammates are is as easy as asking. I hardly use the hive sight myself to find teammates unless I'm finding a specific friend, and even then that is rare - I can ask over ventrilo or in game chat.
-It isn't harder to hide. If you show up on the map, someone is looking at you.
-It is somewhatharder to attack with motion tracking showing up on the map, but ambushing isn't completely nullified or futile.
-It does take <i><u>a little</u></i> less effort to learn maps...so? I know every (old) map like the back of my hand, even after coming back from a one year (or more) break. It didn't take me weeks to learn maps myself, and I did it back in 1.04, but most importantly this depends on the map itself (how fast you learn it). Nancy was relatively easy because the corridors were in order and very straight laced, so to speak, whereas machina is all over the place, and far harder to know where exactly you are. To be completely honest, I don't think the atmosphere of NS is broken by having to learn a map without .. a map.
<!--QuoteBegin-DC Darkling+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DC Darkling)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Second thing which also increased skill but downgraded fun was flashlight for kharaa.. Sure I use it nonstop, if I don't I tend to suck more. But it has great influence on gameplay.
* again less hiding, when you lit up like a xmas tree you won't be able to hide well.
* easier to single out rines against the background.
* you can partially look through structures<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know why this affects the alien hiding. I also don't know how the alien flashlight increases skill, to be honest, or how it downgrades fun. Also, have you ever found yourself in dire need to look through a structure, or even tried looking through one to see what's on the other side clearly rather than taking half a millisecond to peek around it? I still don't. I use the alien flashlight when it's dark.
<!--QuoteBegin-Chocolate+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Chocolate)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well confusion and depth are closely related in this situation. If you learn the map and know certain topographical constraints that each area presents while also knowing how to get from location A to B the fastest, you have an advantage over others. Unless if I'm wrong for any reason, I think no minimap would give more depth for that simple reason.
NOTE: I'm NOT saying we should remove the minimap, I'm just drawing a comparison.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Confusion and depth are closely related in this situation because there is no depth and only confusion. The map itself adds more <a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/depth" target="_blank">depth</a> to the gameplay because there is more than one way to look at the situation other than being completely, utterly lost. That's why you're wrong. Players still knew the 'topographical constraints' of an area while also knowing 'how to get from location A to B the fastest' with or without the map. The map does not offer an extreme advantage except to new players who need to find their way around some of Natural-Selection's more confusing areas, which the map helps lower the learning curve time by, realistically, about a day.
<u>The things that were REALLY different in 1.04:</u>
<b>-Everybody was new.</b> No one had a vague clue as to what the hell was going on, and I would only need one hand to count the number of bunnyhopping aliens I saw from 1.04 to 2.1's release.
<b>-Chambers were bigger.</b>
<b>-Everything was more expensive.</b>
<b>-Some stuff sounded differently.</b>
<b>-Lifeforms had altered abilities.</b>
<b>-Lifeforms were tied to hives.</b>
<b>-Everything took longer to build.</b>
<b>-Some objects had more HP (RTs, mainly).</b>
<b>-Hit boxes were crap.</b>
<b>-Equipment was changed (Jetpack, HMG, GL, SG, Welder).</b>
<b>-Marine's could bunnyhop.</b>
<b>-No strict mapping guidelines.</b> As far as I know, at least. I'm open to correction on this.
<b>-Maps were different. Very different.</b>
<b>-No RFK.</b>
<b>-No medpacks from the armory.</b>
<b>-Marine's started out with one less clip than they do now.</b>
<b>-Skuks didn't align to walls properly.</b>
<b>-Marine's could build buildings side by side.</b>
<b>-Aliens' chambers were slightly different.</b>
<b>-The OCs shot a glob of spit and made a stupid sound instead of spikes.</b>
<b>-Every time, on every game, you would expect a skulk rush at the beginning.</b>
<b>-One gorge.</b>
And, oh yes, <i>we didn't have a map.</i>
I can honestly say, with 100% accuracy, that 3.2 is the best version of Natural-Selection I have ever played. Most of the fond memories I have from 1.04 mostly stem from when I first saw things. Like the first time I saw an onos. Other times it stems from great games, like a three hour long standoff I commanded on ns_tanith where the marines were all in HA+HMG against almost an entire team of fades. But you know what? The latter memories are still being made with 3.2. The difference in 3.2 is that the crappy team dies quickly, instead of a stupid slow, time wasting death waiting for the second hive to go up or be locked down. In 3.2 I've had handfuls of epic games that have lasted hours because each side keeps one upping the other. Hell, I still remember the first time I played Counter-Strike on a lan with my friends for five dollars an hour at some sleezy computer shop, and I still freaking thing, "Man, CS was great back then." You know what?
<b>Nothing in CS has changed to an extreme degree.</b>
And so I put it to you, ladies and gentlemen. This, what we see here, and what we'll forever remember, and what we <i>may think</i> was better (but in fact was not) is nostalgia.
Thankyou.
I disagree on the hiding part with you. If a rine sits in a completely darkened area (like the hive in ns_mineshaft) you are not gona see him without flashlight or minimap. (given that you aint raping ya gamma). NS has more of such areas, so I disagree on it. it does affect hiding.
It does not directly affect skill or fun, I just had to use those words to well, explain. Hard to find right words for it, so I generalised them
I actually use flashlight nonstop since I find it a huge benefit and my skill would plummit without it, now I am so used to it. But thats personal. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
I know the differences between 1.04 and 3.x btw. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
I do agree other changed are minimal, although they are there. Even the little things can make a huge difference.
a dimension taken through an object or body of material, usually downward from an upper surface, horizontally inward from an outer surface, or from top to bottom of something regarded as one of several layers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--quoteo(post=1635523:date=Jun 23 2007, 11:32 PM:name=Haze)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Haze @ Jun 23 2007, 11:32 PM) [snapback]1635523[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->] Confusion and depth are closely related in this situation because there is no depth and only confusion. The map itself adds more depth to the gameplay because there is more than one way to look at the situation other than being completely, utterly lost. That's why you're wrong. Players still knew the 'topographical constraints' of an area while also knowing 'how to get from location A to B the fastest' with or without the map. The map does not offer an extreme advantage except to new players who need to find their way around some of Natural-Selection's more confusing areas, which the map helps lower the learning curve time by, realistically, about a day. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because a player may have more information available to him at any given time and he can look at a situation in more than one angle, you still get the advantage of teamwork, the coordination necessity and the need to be on your toes, which is the depth I’m focused on.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> [Depth: definiton #3 and 5]
complexity or obscurity, as of a subject: <i>a question of great depth</i>.
emotional profundity: <i>the depth of someone's feelings</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Without a map, you need your team more than ever because you suddenly don’t have a lot of information easily accessible to you. You need to gather information from your teammates and keep track of changes to that information. Because of that, you need to be on your toes to figure out what and where something is happening. At the same time, you need to balance that with other aspects of NS (fighting, taking RT’s, etc).
I’m sorry for my little thought out post previously but my original message to convey is the same. You may now be more aware and have more information instantly in 3.2 but you begin to loose parts of the coordination aspect of the original Natural Selection, which arguably looses a nice chunk of “depth” to the game (not in the literal in-game content sense of depth but rather the whole game process in general sense). You do gain other aspects like being able to look at a situation from a different perspective and also needing to be on you toes (what you gain with the minimap the enemy does too), but I’m looking beyond that.
Does this make me wrong? No, it makes me different than you. Does this make NS 1.04 better or worse than 3.2? No, it makes it different.
<b>Side note:</b>
Perhaps that could be an adding factor to why we liked 1.04 so much? 1.04 was more a social coordination frenzy than it is today which encouraged spawning and strengthening of relationships.
cookie for chocolate for understanding. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
I've always wanted to ask this but Chocolate are you white or brown chocolate? Are you dark or light? Do you contain any caramel or nuts?
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I've gotten asked that question so many times I've lost track... and yet I still can't give you a straight up answer. But if I were to choose, I would pick white chocolate with nuts followed closely by brown chocolate and caramel. They are my favourite kinds, what can I say? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
PS: With my name I once got asked if I'm black or white (skin colour). I told them that my stomach made my name, not my skin colour <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> (I'm white).
<!--quoteo(post=1635800:date=Jun 25 2007, 05:13 PM:name=DC_Darkling)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DC_Darkling @ Jun 25 2007, 05:13 PM) [snapback]1635800[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
I keep saying.. chocolate is the one best getting my point, actually he completely gets it. Exactly what I mean. Not better, different. And true.. I myself liked that.
cookie for chocolate for understanding. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
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Yay! Cookie <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />. But that's just the way I think of 3.2 vs 1.04; 1.04 is more of a socially driven game compared with 3.2 (with some help coming from the exploits/glitches). For that reason I like to play any individual match of 1.04 more than 3.2 (except on a regular basis, because the things in 1.04 that are missing starts to catch up with me).
Burn me to the steak if you must, but thats how I feel about 1.04.
I liked that in v1.04 (and in v2) that 5 minutes in to the game, it wouldn't already be determined which team would win
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This is not really correct...
A two hive lockdown in 1.04 was way more of a sure victory for marines than it is now. The main reason being you could not have fades or onos with 1 hive. Don't forget marines could also have super jetpacks with full building damage HMGs before the second hive was up.
If aliens got the second hive up and marines didn't jp rush they pretty much won becuase if played right the entire team minus the gorge could go fade the instant the second hive went up.
1.04 sucked compared to what we have now, thank you devs.
I keep saying.. chocolate is the one best getting my point, actually he completely gets it. Exactly what I mean. Not better, different. And true.. I myself liked that.
cookie for chocolate for understanding. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
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Always rethink or reread your argument from a 3rd party perspective if you have a low number of supporters over a period of time from a population, like in this case only 2.
I liked that in v1.04 (and in v2) that 5 minutes in to the game, it wouldn't already be determined which team would win
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The game is only decided five minutes into that game when the other team sucks royally. In 1.04, if the other team sucked royally, you would still have to wait a good twenty minutes of wasted time to tediously finish the game. In 3.2, if the teams are even games can go on for up to an hour or even more.
The game is only decided five minutes into that game when the other team sucks royally. In 1.04, if the other team sucked royally, you would still have to wait a good twenty minutes of wasted time to tediously finish the game. In 3.2, if the teams are even games can go on for up to an hour or even more.
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True, but i usually play on pub servers, and than never happends