<!--quoteo(post=1634475:date=Jun 19 2007, 06:03 AM:name=Liku)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Liku @ Jun 19 2007, 06:03 AM) [snapback]1634475[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The cone of fire is ridiculous, pretty damn near a toss of dice. Objectives don't mean much you can just kill everyone to win, that happens a lot of the time. Visually it's dull, boring weapons and the maps are mundane and lack atmosphere. Buying weapons is quite dull, considering a couple rounds in you just have enough money to get whatever you want so it's a dumb gimmick that could be done without.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The COF is hardly 'near a toss of dice' when it's completely predictable and bullets hit in the same pattern every time you spray, is it now? Just because you haven't bothered to spend the time learning the recoil patterns doesn't mean you're right. As for the money system being a 'dumb gimmick' err ... yeah, learn how to play CS please.
<!--quoteo(post=1634475:date=Jun 19 2007, 06:03 AM:name=Liku)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Liku @ Jun 19 2007, 06:03 AM) [snapback]1634475[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You haven't played anything other than CS have you? In DoDS or GoW if you just go about willy-nilly(funny phrase) you're going to get raped, Rocco Siffredi status; especially in GoW since your teammates can revive you. In DoD completing the objectives is incredibly satisfying since it happens once every 10 or so minutes then you're rewarded with the hunt of remaining members of the opposing team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, I completely haven't played to a decent-high competetive level in CS, NS, Q3CPMA or even DoW .... the point here is that you're generalising and not caring about it. Your opinion means nothing to me if you're not even gonna bother looking into the subject, and instead brush it off with your own incredibly biased experiences.
<!--quoteo(post=1634475:date=Jun 19 2007, 06:03 AM:name=Liku)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Liku @ Jun 19 2007, 06:03 AM) [snapback]1634475[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anyway, I'll stop helping the derail and I'll continue this on another topic if you want to open it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How about you just stop posting?
I've not played any mod or game to a 'high' level but I've played compettitvely. Comparing CS to NS or even DoD in awareness is stupid. CS is something I've played the most at a competitive level and you <b>don't</b> always need to know where every team member is. You can complete the objective with one good team member. The same applies for DoD (in case of instances with 2 team members needed at a capture point for example).
However NS I believe is more focused around being aware of where your team members are than the other 2 mods. The commander is the first person who needs to know, he also has access to it right? Secondly the objectives compared to CS and DoD are not as linear, there are 3 hives in which the Kharaa hold one and will expand in to two, they also need to take the marine start out; that already gives more for the team to think about and plan out.
Not totally aware of where I'm going with this but the example I give is you can have a full kharaa (or marine team if you want) in a have capturing, securing. The other team could be in your start destroying it by the time you get back. CS and DoD will have the one objective (in DoDs case you will progressively push back) in which you have a more linear path in where you know your team mates will be.
Don't know if that makes much sense, but frankly SpaceJesus you talk out your arse and need to back down from the pedestool you have put yourself upon.
The older I get the more obvious it is that I can no longer have the twitch reflexes of a 13-18 year old. This is probably mostly down to not having enough time to play the game inside-out and partially due to my body slowing down (it's feasible to think I'm not getting as much exercise as before and that's having a mild effect, too). Anyway, for me -someone who used to love arena/dm-style games- I'm just finding that more and more I prefer games where I can straight outthink my opponant. Maybe this is just me making excuses for getting old, maybe because it's actually more satisfying to think that no amount of 14-year-old vitality can counterract a bullet in the back of the head, maybe I'm jaded. But tbh, for me the ship has sailed on games like Warsow and its ilk.
Oh and what SJ said about playing CS to a high level is 100% true (including the part about not being able to appreciate this until you've played it to a high level). When a member of your team goes down you need to know which link in your chain of defence is missing and who needs to cover it. Depending on where he was will tell you how much time you have to reposition your team before you're knee deep and outnumbered 2:1. He could have been the one carrying the defuse kit or the flash... basically it's damn important to know exactly where your teammates are pretty much 100% of the time.
In CS your position and style of play are directly dictated by the positions of your teammates, what they are doing, the positions of the opposing team, and what they are doing, how many players have been picked off (and from what positions) and how many opposing players have been spotted in which positions. This simply isn't the case in any other FPS. You have to react to quite literally everything that goes on and change your position and actions accordingly - this isn't the case in any other FPS. Case closed.
<!--quoteo(post=1634489:date=Jun 19 2007, 08:06 AM:name=Testament)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Testament @ Jun 19 2007, 08:06 AM) [snapback]1634489[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Really, what would possibly make CS special enough to warrant it being the only game with that gameplay?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
CS has easily, the largest playerbase in online gaming history. It's a matter of numbers really. The larger the playerbase, the more teams there are. The more teams there are, the more competition there is between the teams. The more competition there is, the better the teams get. Case in point is NS at this moment in time - the playerbase is so small that the top teams are absolutely terrible in comparison to the 'old' top teams - basically because there is no competition for them to need to get better, they just coast along at the same level. The reason playing CS at such a high level is so much harder than any other game, is because the high-level teams have needed to be significantly better than other teams, and so the teamwork, strategy tactics and individual skill of the top teams is absolutely astronomically higher than the lower level teams.
Think of the number of competetive teams as a pyramid. The bigger the base is, the higher the top is. CS has ridiculous amounts more teams than any other game, therefore the top teams are ridiculous amounts higher up in terms of teamwork and general skill, than any other game. That's why its harder.
LikuI, am the Somberlain.Join Date: 2003-01-10Member: 12128Members
<!--quoteo(post=1634478:date=Jun 19 2007, 05:36 AM:name=SpaceJesus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SpaceJesus @ Jun 19 2007, 05:36 AM) [snapback]1634478[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> How about you just stop posting? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Kitten's got claws, rawr.
<!--quoteo(post=1634497:date=Jun 19 2007, 03:26 PM:name=SpaceJesus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SpaceJesus @ Jun 19 2007, 03:26 PM) [snapback]1634497[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> CS has easily, the largest playerbase in online gaming history.[...] <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> More than eight million?
<!--quoteo(post=1634485:date=Jun 19 2007, 07:54 AM:name=SpaceJesus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SpaceJesus @ Jun 19 2007, 07:54 AM) [snapback]1634485[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> In CS your position and style of play are directly dictated by the positions of your teammates, what they are doing, the positions of the opposing team, and what they are doing, how many players have been picked off (and from what positions) and how many opposing players have been spotted in which positions. This simply isn't the case in any other FPS. You have to react to quite literally everything that goes on and change your position and actions accordingly - this isn't the case in any other FPS. Case closed. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> top of my head: unreal series plus mods, quake series plus mods, half-life series and mods, clancy series, SOCOM series. oh, wait... every other team/sqad/fireteam/group/clan/cult/two-or-more-people-based shooter ever.
<!--quoteo(post=1634502:date=Jun 19 2007, 08:37 AM:name=Testament)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Testament @ Jun 19 2007, 08:37 AM) [snapback]1634502[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I guess I should be proud my threads generate discussion, but holy derail. Is SpaceJesus talking about CS:S or CS: Classic, anyway? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uhhh .... yeah sorry about that dude haha! I'm talking about CS1.6, although some of the points do also apply to CS:S despite the fact that it is a horrible, and much worse game imo, for many different reasons which I won't go into here, because it's an entirely different discussion. The watered-down version is that source has been 'dumbed down', a <b>lot</b> and they intentionally lowered the skill-ceiling.
<!--quoteo(post=1634501:date=Jun 19 2007, 08:35 AM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Jun 19 2007, 08:35 AM) [snapback]1634501[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->More than eight million?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Errr ... probably. I wouldn't be surprised in the least ;D but anyway, you're talking about WOW, which for I'd guess 60% of subscribers or more - is a social game. Honestly, WOW isn't even competetive in the slightest, unless you're talking about PVP arenas which are relatively new and unpolished, and basically just bad. Anyway, I somehow think that there are significantly less people who play PVP arena than people who log on to do raids and talk to their friends. But again, entirely another discussion.
I think the keyword here is numbers. The size of the competetive community makes a lot of difference when it comes to how good the game is competetively. In my opinion NS has a huge potential, but apart from a very few brief periods of time there hasn't really been any decent competition. You don't need to bother with the metagame because the skills of players and teams are so unpolished that simply bunnyhopping around a map a few hours a week will give you enough of an advantage to equate say, a five day LAN practicing these two or three specific tactics that you MIGHT use for the upcoming CS tournament.
I like NS more as a game tha I do CS, but as things are now I'd rather play CS over NS because there's actually a point.
This however has nothing to do with the game mechanics in themselves, it's 110% about differences in depth of metagames.
<!--quoteo(post=1634524:date=Jun 19 2007, 04:25 PM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tjosan @ Jun 19 2007, 04:25 PM) [snapback]1634524[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> [...]I like NS more as a game tha I do CS, but as things are now I'd rather play CS over NS because there's actually a point.[...] <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What do you mean? Both are games. Depending on your view they are either a provider of amusement and relaxation, or a waste of time. I don't understand how NS can be pointless if CS isn't. Unless, of course, you would argue that NS isn't fun, in which case it is indeed pointless.
<!--quoteo(post=1634579:date=Jun 19 2007, 02:17 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Jun 19 2007, 02:17 PM) [snapback]1634579[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> What do you mean? Both are games. Depending on your view they are either a provider of amusement and relaxation, or a waste of time. I don't understand how NS can be pointless if CS isn't. Unless, of course, you would argue that NS isn't fun, in which case it is indeed pointless. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> He means that by playing CS and getting better at it, he may some day be able to compete in the larger leagues. Getting good at NS however is pointless because there really are no big CAL competitions to speak of for it.
These arguements are stupid though, lets talk about how Geometry Wars is now available on steam. That is a much more interesting topic.
Different strokes for different folks. I prefer NS because it's less addictive than crack (part of why I stopped playing CS competitively). What makes NS stand out is that the pub game is far more satisfying than CS, mainly because NS -requires- a base level of teamwork for you to win, even if it's something as simple as a newbie being pressganged into saving and dropping the Hive.
In CS there's pretty much no teamwork necessary at average pub level short of friendly firing your entire team to death. I experienced peaks and troughs in both games (while playing pub this is), when I'd be miserably frustrated and completely elated. The difference is that CS was more down to being frustrated at myself playing poorly or not making the most of opportunities as they presented themselves, NS is far more about getting mad at ish-for-brains players or actually being incredibly impressed when a plan you've hatched on the fly with a bunch of unknowns actually comes together and you win the round as a team against some stiff competition. NS is definitely the most double-edged sword because you're essentially relying on others for a fun experience, but it has its pleasantly surprising moments.
Myeh, I mostly derive my fun in games from competition. Either competing against myself in a singleplayer game or a multiplayer game I'm new to, or competing against other players or teams. CS provides that competition, NS doesn't. It used to be I was still improving myself alot, and working towards improving the team I was in, in NS too, but I lost that a long while ago.
Um, I think UT2K4's Onslaught Mode was some of the best combination of gaming with your dexterity and gaming with your...You know, brain.
Now, I'll admit, I've only played the Demo of UT2K4. But that one Onslaught map was SO good, man. A team where everyone listened to each other and worked together would easily win, but a loner with good reflexes could still do enough damage to turn the tide of battle. It rewarded teamwork (like vehicles that become ten times for useful with each additional person in it) and strategy (attacking a node when everyone is at a different one), but it wasn't so slow-paced that you couldn't get your moments of heated battle when you headshot 3 people in a row, barely staying alive by double jumping and double-tapping your movement keys and using the shock rifle combo and all the good stuff you normally find in a Deathmatch.
CS is, slow paced, generic, twitchy, non-immersive, content simplistic (there are 2-3 weapons that acctually matter, the rest is just for fun), and highly mainstream. Those are enough downsides to turn many players off, especially many hardcore immersion style gamers.
CS is also, brilliantly paced, popular, teamplay oriented, cerebral, has a very high skill ceiling, is highly intuitive and thus highly casually available. Overall it does alot of things very right, and that's why it's alot of fun, and very successful.
ooh... ok, I'll throw my tuppence worth in on the three games mentioned that peak my interest and how they compare.
NS - definitely more team oriented than CS which is where a lot of the fun of it comes from for me but it can be frustrating when the other team is good and you as a lone bastion of awesomeness can't hold the tide alone :p
CS - not as team-orientated as NS but still a team game but when the chips are down you can single-handedly save the day and make up for the shortcomings of your team which can save frustration (and get you lots of praise from your team in the process which is always nice).
UT2k4 Onslaught - I like the idea of onslaught but the on-foot weapons are so slow and undamaging I actually just ignore anyone who's not in a vehicle unless I'm in one myself and feel like mowing down some hapless opposition. The vehicles and their weapons are very satisfying in complete contrast to the nerf-sponsored tournament weapons you have to endure on foot.
When I can't get a vehicle I play the stealth or engineer game with the avril and beam gun as my choice arnaments; avril for 'backstabbing' vehicles and swatting pesky air vehicles away and the beam gun for repairing our cap points. When I'm not doing those I'm sneaking towards the enemy base undetected (you'd be amazed how much people can miss you crouched in the bushes in onslaught... fabby! :D ).
Comments
The COF is hardly 'near a toss of dice' when it's completely predictable and bullets hit in the same pattern every time you spray, is it now? Just because you haven't bothered to spend the time learning the recoil patterns doesn't mean you're right. As for the money system being a 'dumb gimmick' err ... yeah, learn how to play CS please.
<!--quoteo(post=1634475:date=Jun 19 2007, 06:03 AM:name=Liku)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Liku @ Jun 19 2007, 06:03 AM) [snapback]1634475[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You haven't played anything other than CS have you? In DoDS or GoW if you just go about willy-nilly(funny phrase) you're going to get raped, Rocco Siffredi status; especially in GoW since your teammates can revive you. In DoD completing the objectives is incredibly satisfying since it happens once every 10 or so minutes then you're rewarded with the hunt of remaining members of the opposing team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I completely haven't played to a decent-high competetive level in CS, NS, Q3CPMA or even DoW .... the point here is that you're generalising and not caring about it. Your opinion means nothing to me if you're not even gonna bother looking into the subject, and instead brush it off with your own incredibly biased experiences.
<!--quoteo(post=1634475:date=Jun 19 2007, 06:03 AM:name=Liku)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Liku @ Jun 19 2007, 06:03 AM) [snapback]1634475[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anyway, I'll stop helping the derail and I'll continue this on another topic if you want to open it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How about you just stop posting?
However NS I believe is more focused around being aware of where your team members are than the other 2 mods. The commander is the first person who needs to know, he also has access to it right? Secondly the objectives compared to CS and DoD are not as linear, there are 3 hives in which the Kharaa hold one and will expand in to two, they also need to take the marine start out; that already gives more for the team to think about and plan out.
Not totally aware of where I'm going with this but the example I give is you can have a full kharaa (or marine team if you want) in a have capturing, securing. The other team could be in your start destroying it by the time you get back. CS and DoD will have the one objective (in DoDs case you will progressively push back) in which you have a more linear path in where you know your team mates will be.
Don't know if that makes much sense, but frankly SpaceJesus you talk out your arse and need to back down from the pedestool you have put yourself upon.
Oh and what SJ said about playing CS to a high level is 100% true (including the part about not being able to appreciate this until you've played it to a high level). When a member of your team goes down you need to know which link in your chain of defence is missing and who needs to cover it. Depending on where he was will tell you how much time you have to reposition your team before you're knee deep and outnumbered 2:1. He could have been the one carrying the defuse kit or the flash... basically it's damn important to know exactly where your teammates are pretty much 100% of the time.
Not only CS has that sort of high-level play.
Really, what would possibly make CS special enough to warrant it being the only game with that gameplay?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
CS has easily, the largest playerbase in online gaming history. It's a matter of numbers really. The larger the playerbase, the more teams there are. The more teams there are, the more competition there is between the teams. The more competition there is, the better the teams get.
Case in point is NS at this moment in time - the playerbase is so small that the top teams are absolutely terrible in comparison to the 'old' top teams - basically because there is no competition for them to need to get better, they just coast along at the same level.
The reason playing CS at such a high level is so much harder than any other game, is because the high-level teams have needed to be significantly better than other teams, and so the teamwork, strategy tactics and individual skill of the top teams is absolutely astronomically higher than the lower level teams.
Think of the number of competetive teams as a pyramid. The bigger the base is, the higher the top is. CS has ridiculous amounts more teams than any other game, therefore the top teams are ridiculous amounts higher up in terms of teamwork and general skill, than any other game. That's why its harder.
How about you just stop posting?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Kitten's got claws, rawr.
CS has easily, the largest playerbase in online gaming history.[...]
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
More than eight million?
In CS your position and style of play are directly dictated by the positions of your teammates, what they are doing, the positions of the opposing team, and what they are doing, how many players have been picked off (and from what positions) and how many opposing players have been spotted in which positions. This simply isn't the case in any other FPS. You have to react to quite literally everything that goes on and change your position and actions accordingly - this isn't the case in any other FPS. Case closed.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
top of my head: unreal series plus mods, quake series plus mods, half-life series and mods, clancy series, SOCOM series. oh, wait... every other team/sqad/fireteam/group/clan/cult/two-or-more-people-based shooter ever.
I guess I should be proud my threads generate discussion, but holy derail. Is SpaceJesus talking about CS:S or CS: Classic, anyway?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uhhh .... yeah sorry about that dude haha! I'm talking about CS1.6, although some of the points do also apply to CS:S despite the fact that it is a horrible, and much worse game imo, for many different reasons which I won't go into here, because it's an entirely different discussion. The watered-down version is that source has been 'dumbed down', a <b>lot</b> and they intentionally lowered the skill-ceiling.
<!--quoteo(post=1634501:date=Jun 19 2007, 08:35 AM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Jun 19 2007, 08:35 AM) [snapback]1634501[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->More than eight million?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Errr ... probably. I wouldn't be surprised in the least ;D but anyway, you're talking about WOW, which for I'd guess 60% of subscribers or more - is a social game. Honestly, WOW isn't even competetive in the slightest, unless you're talking about PVP arenas which are relatively new and unpolished, and basically just bad. Anyway, I somehow think that there are significantly less people who play PVP arena than people who log on to do raids and talk to their friends.
But again, entirely another discussion.
I like NS more as a game tha I do CS, but as things are now I'd rather play CS over NS because there's actually a point.
This however has nothing to do with the game mechanics in themselves, it's 110% about differences in depth of metagames.
[...]I like NS more as a game tha I do CS, but as things are now I'd rather play CS over NS because there's actually a point.[...]
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What do you mean? Both are games. Depending on your view they are either a provider of amusement and relaxation, or a waste of time. I don't understand how NS can be pointless if CS isn't. Unless, of course, you would argue that NS isn't fun, in which case it is indeed pointless.
What do you mean? Both are games. Depending on your view they are either a provider of amusement and relaxation, or a waste of time. I don't understand how NS can be pointless if CS isn't. Unless, of course, you would argue that NS isn't fun, in which case it is indeed pointless.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He means that by playing CS and getting better at it, he may some day be able to compete in the larger leagues. Getting good at NS however is pointless because there really are no big CAL competitions to speak of for it.
These arguements are stupid though, lets talk about how Geometry Wars is now available on steam. That is a much more interesting topic.
In CS there's pretty much no teamwork necessary at average pub level short of friendly firing your entire team to death. I experienced peaks and troughs in both games (while playing pub this is), when I'd be miserably frustrated and completely elated. The difference is that CS was more down to being frustrated at myself playing poorly or not making the most of opportunities as they presented themselves, NS is far more about getting mad at ish-for-brains players or actually being incredibly impressed when a plan you've hatched on the fly with a bunch of unknowns actually comes together and you win the round as a team against some stiff competition. NS is definitely the most double-edged sword because you're essentially relying on others for a fun experience, but it has its pleasantly surprising moments.
Um, I think UT2K4's Onslaught Mode was some of the best combination of gaming with your dexterity and gaming with your...You know, brain.
Now, I'll admit, I've only played the Demo of UT2K4. But that one Onslaught map was SO good, man. A team where everyone listened to each other and worked together would easily win, but a loner with good reflexes could still do enough damage to turn the tide of battle. It rewarded teamwork (like vehicles that become ten times for useful with each additional person in it) and strategy (attacking a node when everyone is at a different one), but it wasn't so slow-paced that you couldn't get your moments of heated battle when you headshot 3 people in a row, barely staying alive by double jumping and double-tapping your movement keys and using the shock rifle combo and all the good stuff you normally find in a Deathmatch.
CS is also, brilliantly paced, popular, teamplay oriented, cerebral, has a very high skill ceiling, is highly intuitive and thus highly casually available. Overall it does alot of things very right, and that's why it's alot of fun, and very successful.
NS - definitely more team oriented than CS which is where a lot of the fun of it comes from for me but it can be frustrating when the other team is good and you as a lone bastion of awesomeness can't hold the tide alone :p
CS - not as team-orientated as NS but still a team game but when the chips are down you can single-handedly save the day and make up for the shortcomings of your team which can save frustration (and get you lots of praise from your team in the process which is always nice).
UT2k4 Onslaught - I like the idea of onslaught but the on-foot weapons are so slow and undamaging I actually just ignore anyone who's not in a vehicle unless I'm in one myself and feel like mowing down some hapless opposition. The vehicles and their weapons are very satisfying in complete contrast to the nerf-sponsored tournament weapons you have to endure on foot.
When I can't get a vehicle I play the stealth or engineer game with the avril and beam gun as my choice arnaments; avril for 'backstabbing' vehicles and swatting pesky air vehicles away and the beam gun for repairing our cap points. When I'm not doing those I'm sneaking towards the enemy base undetected (you'd be amazed how much people can miss you crouched in the bushes in onslaught... fabby! :D ).