The removal of hive armor was needed on the fade and the onos
SmoodCroozn
Join Date: 2003-11-04 Member: 22310Members
Join Date: 2003-11-04 Member: 22310Members
<div class="IPBDescription">But the skulk was never the problem</div>I have seen some talk about skulks the past few months. Skulks versus SG by Kittawhatever and Skulks by rapier.
I looked at it from the marine side and thought the +5 armor was the problem. Turns out it was added since 3.03. While I could have pushed that, the real problem was the removal of hive armor.
I don't remember skulks at hive 2 being "overpowered" in 3.1. Yes, the fade and onoses at that time meant marines probably would lose if aliens got to hive 2. But now that hive armor is removed from both, marines are given some help against these huge lifeforms.
But the skulk...
The marine in 3.1 and 3.2 has not changed versus the skulk. But the skulk in 3.2 loses its hive armor. However, it needs this armor to pull off the amazing 5 or more (medpack) just to kill one marine.
So what I'm saying is that the removal of hive armor did reduce the effectiveness of the higher lifeforms, which was the problem of 3.1. However, I don't believe the skulk needed to take this hit, and one could argue the lerk as well.
I'm saying the skulk wasn't a problem in 3.1, therefore a nerf to it in 3.2 was not necessary.
I looked at it from the marine side and thought the +5 armor was the problem. Turns out it was added since 3.03. While I could have pushed that, the real problem was the removal of hive armor.
I don't remember skulks at hive 2 being "overpowered" in 3.1. Yes, the fade and onoses at that time meant marines probably would lose if aliens got to hive 2. But now that hive armor is removed from both, marines are given some help against these huge lifeforms.
But the skulk...
The marine in 3.1 and 3.2 has not changed versus the skulk. But the skulk in 3.2 loses its hive armor. However, it needs this armor to pull off the amazing 5 or more (medpack) just to kill one marine.
So what I'm saying is that the removal of hive armor did reduce the effectiveness of the higher lifeforms, which was the problem of 3.1. However, I don't believe the skulk needed to take this hit, and one could argue the lerk as well.
I'm saying the skulk wasn't a problem in 3.1, therefore a nerf to it in 3.2 was not necessary.
Comments
The skulk met the marine upgrades at least with hive armor back in 3.1. But now, they lose that, so the difference will become larger as the game goes on.
Even if the bullets taken seem minimal, then why nerf the skulk in the first place?
For the lvoe of god Smood, what are you crying about now? Just stop it, there is no issue with the removal of second hvie armour bonus, it has worked out extremely well.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree. I for one would like to see skulks a little more powerful.
the role of the skulk is to come in after a lifeform when the marines are reloading or freaking out and kill them, because at this time the marines cannot shoot at the skulk, meaning that the skulk will not be insta killed. skulks are amazing when left untouched, so what you must do to be be useful as a skulk is learn to be untouchable; whether is be through coming in after a lifeform, ambushing reloading marines or leaping around like a madman. you have to understand that skulks are not meant to take bullets, they are meant to dodge them.
you really cant expect to be able to kill marines alone as a skulk unless you have silence, leap and focus and the marine you are killing is alone and has an lmg.
if you think skulks need to be buffed then you just arent playing them right.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Minus this sentence and the use of "dodge bullets" instead of what should be "evade the aiming of the marine" you are correct. Skulks can't dodge a fired shot when it's well aimed, so they should avoid getting aimed at. Very true <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> , <i><b>except</b></i> for the clique "just get better" commentary at the end.
I think the issue is, since marine players today can aim pretty well in general, are skulks by that same generality too easy to get aimed at? Many think so:
<!--QuoteBegin-F4tManMGS2+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F4tManMGS2)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I disagree. I for one would like to see skulks a little more powerful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I concur, BUT with regards to speed rather than armor.
<u>Note</u>:
One key factor in that equation which is often forgotten should be the map design itself; to which most do not have sufficient cover and entropy to effectively skulk in. Long, well-lit hallways with no or poor cover are highly marine centric, for example.
Very true.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you really cant expect to be able to kill marines alone as a skulk unless you have silence, leap and focus and the marine you are killing is alone and has an lmg.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also very true.
Which is of course the real problem with skulks: They are absolutely no fun to play because they are pretty much worthless.
I like x5's suggestion of making them faster.
Someone had some skulk speed amx plugin coded. Why not try it out? I don't think the speed really improves the game since it means more trouble for the bad marines while the good marines still take out the walker skulks easily. Top skulks could turn out nasty with the speed increase since they can dodge even better at melee range.
I guess there's once again something wrong with the whole skulk build since its powerful but seems to be way too difficult to use for the lower skill levels. NS:S might do something about it if necessary.
Just go use the damage calculator to look at how some of these encounters work out. You'll have to rig your calculations around the removal of hive armour and adjust the hp and armour of the onos.
Which is of course the real problem with skulks: They are absolutely no fun to play because they are pretty much worthless.
I like x5's suggestion of making them faster.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tours just explained how to be no worthless skulk, maybe it isn't fun for everyone, but I myself see it more as a challenge to be not worthless and I'm sure not the only one.
And there is still the option to just kill marine rts, which surely isn't that much fun but this also depends on wether you like to play for your team or you rather like to rambo and frag.
Making the skulk faster would just increase the problems with hitboxes, reg and rates again, I don't like that suggestion.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whoa! I'm not talking like 10x celerity or some crap like that! Just a tad bit faster base speed. You can nail a zooming celerity lerk as long as you can move your aim that fast. Rate issues from people still trying to use near dail-up rates will always suck but that's not the majority. If you can snipe a conc-ing scout in TFC, if you can shotgun a crazy celerity lerk, if you can HMG a leaping skulk in mid-air, you have NO EXCUSE for complaints like that. It really isn't that hard, not easy but stating that it'll just increase those problem is false. In fact, you just made a prime example of what is called a red herring.
Let's get back on topic, my point is that saying the skulk needs more armor is not true. Skulks are not mini-fades. They get shotgunned, they die. However if the skulk or a group of skulks can evade the marine's aim and close the distance to get in melee range, that would give the same effect as armor only that is was from "evaded" shots rather than "armor absorbed" shots. You won't be able mount a frontal charge, nor should you. But now when you are trying to take cover or rush over the the gorge you can do it much better. Ever been trying to climb a wall to evade a marine and can't scale the geometry fast enough to get away? Ever landed a bite on a marine only to have him go flying far away and you can't catch him in time to get pistol scripted? It sucks, and actually it isn't that rare. Not that a moderate to slight speed boost would eliminate that, but it'd be a perfect aspect to <b>balance</b> that class against a vanilla marine. I'm saying we should tweak that varible for balancing rather than armor. Armor also has many unwanted side effects and widens the skill gap a signifigant deal -- a well skilled skulk with a lot of extra armor can maul marines as badly as a fade. A well skilled marine or a marine in a group with cover fire will still take down a skulk the same, regardless of a moderate boost to speed.
Remember, marines are typically ranged and Kharaa are typically melee. Want to boost the skulk? Give it more agility, more speed to evade or close the distance.
Was I the only one?
Anywayz.. I think its hive armor for all or for noone, but I prefer it back. Lower cara values if a lifeform needs health nerfing.
It's also caused by fps drops ("your problem", one might say), by weak or too far away (full) servers and just by players using different, bad connected isp. A good example for the last point are many people all over west europe having reg issues on finnish servers (although not <b>that</b> far away) and finnish players struggle with the same issues on german servers (german tanks) e.g. and don't even get me started on spanish players/servers <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Reg is sometimes even better on east coast servers than on those I mentioned depending on your own location in europe.
The point is, faster movement doesn't cause these issues for more people, but has a bigger impact on those that already struggle with bad reg.
These aren't just a few people, regarding leagues, nation cups or most important just the fact that ns player size is slowly but continiously decreasing and thus you (will) have to play vs. people with higher pings living not in your country or on your continent to get a full server.
Considering the dev's trend to slow down aliens and/or their movement, perfectly shown by the slower fade blink accel., nerfed lerk and the addition of movement (less work on controls) all with the intention to make the game easier for new/bad players, I don't see your suggestion fit into this.
Minus this sentence and the use of "dodge bullets" instead of what should be "evade the aiming of the marine" you are correct. Skulks can't dodge a fired shot when it's well aimed, so they should avoid getting aimed at. Very true <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> , <i><b>except</b></i> for the clique "just get better" commentary at the end.
I think the issue is, since marine players today can aim pretty well in general, are skulks by that same generality too easy to get aimed at? Many think so:
I concur, BUT with regards to speed rather than armor.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm all for increasing speed; I think I actually offered it as a suggestion in I & S before, but it got shot down very quickly.
screw devour, bring back the 1.00 nuke.
That's one way to stop ramboing marines.
Wait don't we have that all ready? Isn't it called focus or something like that?
screw devour, bring back the 1.00 nuke.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wait so the nuke actually did exist at one time? i was told it did at one time then it didnt by antoher person... so did it or didnt it?
if it did exist what was it like
...
goddam those things were fun =D
1.0 was the first public release and the Nuke was long gone by that point. There was never any version of NS played by anyone outside of the Devs and Playtesters that included the Nuke.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Jazz, you know better than to use factual knowlege about NS on these forums.
Minus this sentence and the use of "dodge bullets" instead of what should be "evade the aiming of the marine" you are correct. Skulks can't dodge a fired shot when it's well aimed, so they should avoid getting aimed at. Very true <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> , <i><b>except</b></i> for the clique "just get better" commentary at the end.
I think the issue is, since marine players today can aim pretty well in general, are skulks by that same generality too easy to get aimed at? Many think so:
I concur, BUT with regards to speed rather than armor.
<u>Note</u>:
One key factor in that equation which is often forgotten should be the map design itself; to which most do not have sufficient cover and entropy to effectively skulk in. Long, well-lit hallways with no or poor cover are highly marine centric, for example.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. Skulks really just can't "dodge bullets" and when weapons upgrade start coming and armor upgrades come, skulks become useless.
Skulks get the majority of their kills by not simply "dodging bullets" but by ambushing. We all know ambushing becomes useless after motion tracking but that's a different subject to talk about.
Maps also make a difference(obviously).
Also don't forget shotguns, HMGs, and GLs which all massacre skulks easily.
I liked hive armor.. then again I also liked the (insane) speed a skulk had in 1.04 (esp with celerity).
Was I the only one?
Anywayz.. I think its hive armor for all or for noone, but I prefer it back. Lower cara values if a lifeform needs health nerfing.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skulk speed was slower in 1.04. Not the actual base speed though, but the agility, server performance and the fact that reaching max bhop speed reset your speed to base ground speed. The skulk hitbox was also much larger and static in appearance so speed was less of an issue. Celerity speed however, was boosted post-1.04, so the speed of a celerity skulk was definitely lower.
All in all, if you want faster and more agile skulks I have to ask where the hell you've been for the past two or three years of NS because that's more or less what every major patch has been doing - increasing the speed, agility and versatility of behavior of the skulk.
then again, my memory is crap
I wouldn't agree that Skulks need buffing.
I would agree the current state of the Skulk means they're not much fun to play past early game.
Why? *Shrug*
- Shockwave