Skulk vs SG
Kittamaru
Join Date: 2006-09-18 Member: 58017Members
Join Date: 2006-09-18 Member: 58017Members
<div class="IPBDescription">And other high weapons</div>Now, before the flames start, let me say this:
I am an NS ###### who has had to resort to CO due to lack of decent NS servers and players that can work as a team. As such I have seen the best and worst in this. I have played NS since 1.03 and can honestly say those were "the days".
Now, on to the topic.
Skulks are useless once shotguns appear. In NS it isn't as bad as they eventually die... but in combat it's stupidly strong. Once the SG hits lvl 2 damage, there is NO way for a skulk to live thru a full on hit. Even AMX plugins dont' help much. You get the first bite in, maybe a second if the marine is slow to act, but before the third comes in he turns, looks down, and smears you across the floor. Worse still are the ones that have the art of b-hopping to take advantage of knockback down to an art. Even with focus you stand little to no chance!
Once GL's appear, it's good game. Skulks die so easily to GL spam upon spawning that you basicly can't do anything about it. That makes no sense as they are such a "small" target.
I propose reducing the skulk's hitbox size by 10%. Also, give skulks a 30% resistance to explosive weapons - this makes sense as they are a small target. This means less of the shrapnel will hit, greatly reducing the damage dealt. A direct hit should still kill, but from a few feet away the skulk should merely flinch.
I would also like to see the skulk sped up a little... maybe another 25 units/second base speed? Make celerity about 10% more effective and give leap 15% more speed boost. Skulks are so small and fragile that speed is their friend... a speed that simply isn't there anymore.
To compensate, I feel nothing needs done on marines. Against skulks, they will be fine with this. Shotguns should require a full on blast at point blank to one hit kill. otherwise, make it 2 anything more than a few dozen units away. LMG's and HMG's would still rip skulks apart (which in the case of LMG's is what they were made to do). Perhaps increase the LMG Rate of FIre by 5% to compensate?
I am an NS ###### who has had to resort to CO due to lack of decent NS servers and players that can work as a team. As such I have seen the best and worst in this. I have played NS since 1.03 and can honestly say those were "the days".
Now, on to the topic.
Skulks are useless once shotguns appear. In NS it isn't as bad as they eventually die... but in combat it's stupidly strong. Once the SG hits lvl 2 damage, there is NO way for a skulk to live thru a full on hit. Even AMX plugins dont' help much. You get the first bite in, maybe a second if the marine is slow to act, but before the third comes in he turns, looks down, and smears you across the floor. Worse still are the ones that have the art of b-hopping to take advantage of knockback down to an art. Even with focus you stand little to no chance!
Once GL's appear, it's good game. Skulks die so easily to GL spam upon spawning that you basicly can't do anything about it. That makes no sense as they are such a "small" target.
I propose reducing the skulk's hitbox size by 10%. Also, give skulks a 30% resistance to explosive weapons - this makes sense as they are a small target. This means less of the shrapnel will hit, greatly reducing the damage dealt. A direct hit should still kill, but from a few feet away the skulk should merely flinch.
I would also like to see the skulk sped up a little... maybe another 25 units/second base speed? Make celerity about 10% more effective and give leap 15% more speed boost. Skulks are so small and fragile that speed is their friend... a speed that simply isn't there anymore.
To compensate, I feel nothing needs done on marines. Against skulks, they will be fine with this. Shotguns should require a full on blast at point blank to one hit kill. otherwise, make it 2 anything more than a few dozen units away. LMG's and HMG's would still rip skulks apart (which in the case of LMG's is what they were made to do). Perhaps increase the LMG Rate of FIre by 5% to compensate?
Comments
I propose reducing the skulk's hitbox size by 10%.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NO NO NO NO NO
There are already too many skulks without hitboxes that don't die when they're shot. A SG is 2 points - a leaping skulk with celerity costs the same, and assuming both players are on an equal skill level, the skulk stands a good chance of winning. In any case, NS is balanced around classic, not combat. The only possible issue with a SG that I see is it's 8 rounds.
skulks arent meant to fight directly against sgs or hmgs, lets stop demanding that they should be able to
Normally, when marines have SG, you have at least 2 points, then you can go lerk, can't you ? Skulks are good (at least if the player is too <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> ), and you can save your points until being level 3-4 to lerk/fade.
But, ok, sometimes there are SGs/HMGs and you are only a poor skulk, because you are in a feeder team, but it's not every games, so it's boring ONE time, and you don't need to change the config...
But in NS, yes, skulks become free res to the marines after a certain point. They can barely stand the average marine and are at their weakest when defending say a node or a hive. But I haven't gotten any ideas that would help this situation in a balanced way.
What I'm curious to see is if we took out the +5 armor that was added a couple of versions back, that was "supposed" to break the armor 1 trend.
What I'm curious to see is if we took out the +5 armor that was added a couple of versions back, that was "supposed" to break the armor 1 trend.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Armor -5 would affect the first 2 minutes mostly. I'm fine with the skulks, but most people are unhappy with them later in the game, right? I like the armor +5 since it encourages people to parasite though.
Combat is total imbalance anyway, so there should be no changes just because of combat.
The 3rd hive armor gives you 10 hp more at max unless you've got cara (max 30 hp then). 10 hp might get you lucky and save you vs sg sometimes, but vs hmg its no good.
A slight speed boost won't stop heavy weaps from shredding the skulks. The speed boost would have to quite big to have effect, I believe.
also, you don't need lvl2 shottys to tear up skulks.
Is it possible to remove the "i got to have lvl 1 wpn before railgun" in co, since it would be well fun to limit the levels to 5 or 6 and actually have fun playing combat.
oh, and who is the idiot that invented buildmenu to combat, if you wanna build stuff, play ns or sim city yeh, stupid.
In CO they have to upgrade twice before they get the shotgun. What do you do? Go Lerk if you can't kill em'. Even a Gorge can kill a shotgunner since they can stay out of their effective kill-zone.
In NS, it's an additional 1-3 resources for the marines.
In CO, it's an additional bit of experience.
Sadly, this has made skulks non-expendable. I hate RFK and CO for this reason <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> I liked being able to do wave after wave of suicide rushes on a heavy train to only finally succeed... now... doing so means they can heavy train again imediately afterwards due to the RFK they get
I'm not saying a skulk should stand toe-to-toe with a shotgunner or HMG... just that as they stand they are far too weak.
Hive Armor was removed
Marines got a +5 to starting armor
Marine speed seems almost faster
Skulk speed has been reduced many times
Marine hitboxes are pretty accurate
Skulk hitboxes lag behind the skulk when at speed, making "corner shots" commonplace - leap exemplifies this problem
Marines are ranged with heavy hitting weapons to match
Skulks are Melee with mid-level weapons to match (though the new leap is very useful)
MT all but negates Celerity, Silence, and Leap, not to mention ambushes
Cloaking is easily countered by: Scanner, grenades (HG or GL), mines, random bursts of fire, etc
Focus is a hindereance more than a help
The problem with lerks is they are a support class... they are basicly flying skulks that have a larger target and deal ranged damage. Their bite is, admitedly, faster... but not fast enough. It only takes one, maybe two, point blank shotgun blasts to wreck a lerk. A semi-comatose marine can manage that most of the time. A lerk is only good if he can pancake because, if I'm not mistaken, it "breaks" their hitbox
GL's splash damage absolutely wrecks spawning skulks. It isn't even funny. In CO it's far worse because you spawn as a group and get blasted before you can move. It's not that your own team sucks for being unable to defend as much as it is that, marines spawn in fully ready for combat - aliens have to re-evolve their life forms.
I could keep going on, but I don't mean to sound like I'm ranting. I love playing as a skulk - the speed always thrilled me... and now it's not there.
With the removal of hive armor, I've found that skulks late game are quite weak vs. hmg/shotgun/anything really. I'd like to see perhaps nothing with hitboxes but maybe give skulks that old three-hive-armor thing from 3.1?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What was the three hive armor thing? Gimmie.
And like others already said, if you don't want to feed marines and get more frags, go fade.
early sg = level 3, no armour upgrades or resupply
so the equivalent 2 levels for an alien = leap + cara/silence/celerity
parasite the marine, leap in with 2 bites. dead marine.
from an ns_point of view:
skulks are vanilla units, sgs cost 10 res. skulks shouldn't be doing 1-on-1s with sg marines.
from a competitive point of view, a good early (e.g. pre-lerk time) shotgunner can demolish teams, but im guessing from your post that you dont do competitive play.
Redemption onos needs to be changed somehow, I'm sick of redeeming so early every time! Fix please or I'm leaving
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
WTH WHY DIDNT I REDEEM?! DEVS FIX REDEMPTION WOW ITS SO BORKED
Redemption onos needs to be changed somehow, I'm sick of redeeming so early every time! Fix please or I'm leaving
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really dont think anyone is going to stop you. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
I liked being able to do wave after wave of suicide rushes on a heavy train to only finally succeed
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ahahhahahahaha
Focus is a hindereance more than a help
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It hurt my brain to read that...try fighting JPers with or without focus and see if you still think its useless.
Focus+leap=DEVASTATION
I'm not complaining about early game skulks... I'm saying late game they are a class that gets raped. In NS, they are your primary class and RFK makes them non-expendable. Make them WORTH the resources marines get from you. In combat, GL spam and random bullets going everywhere makes them useless.
I'm a decent skulk in my own right - my favorite tactic is the z axis wiggle when leaping at a target. It really throws off their aim. The problem is, if they have a shotgun, the counter is VERY simple. Just wait till they are almost in melee range, and fire. If at least 2/3 of the shot hits, dead skulk. The problem with ambushing as a skulk in NS and Co is MT. In CO it's worse because of all the randomly flying bullets and grenades.
However, as this thread seems to have already become spammed and trashed with random crap (like the 2 cent post) I believe it would be best if a mod either closed it or trimmed it... I don't want a flame war in here.
PS - freight train, if you ever played back in 1.04, you know the kind of suicide rushes Im talking about. You just lost third hive after half an hour of fighting for it, the commander has saved enough res for an HA/HMG-GL/Welder rush towards one of the other two hives. Your gorge re-builds hive 3 as the marines are incoming to hive 2, so the entirety of the alien team is trying to hold them back just long enough for hive three abilities and onos (cause back then, no hive 3 = no onos cause you couldn't save enough res). Fades bile bombing, lerks spiking, skulks leaping in and biting and screaching, gorges spitting and healspraying and using their hive 2 of the time (I think it was webs back then? Or was it babblers?). A struggle like that could last well untill the hive 3 built, and only then would the aliens begin to push back effectively. Onos back then were a thing of power and fear thanks to their hitbox bug and the IMMENSE HP effect of armor back in 1.04. Combine that with the fact that DC's had no stacking penalties (why said penalties were implemented, I will NEVER understand) and the aliens had no focus, and it made for an interesting game <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> I love every second of it!
Kain, JP's should be taken out by lerks or fades or the occasional focus skulk. Focus, however, reduces your damage over time.
I'm not complaining about early game skulks... I'm saying late game they are a class that gets raped. In NS, they are your primary class and RFK makes them non-expendable. Make them WORTH the resources marines get from you. In combat, GL spam and random bullets going everywhere makes them useless.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm still going to have to disagree with you on the utility of focus skulks, but that's not the overall picture you are talking about.
Back to the main point, of course late game skulks get wasted by GLs and HMGs, but the same could be said of late game vanilla marines getting wasted by fades and oni. Rines only seem more powerful late game because they are generally more coordinated and move in large groups. This is something aliens CAN do but often don't do.
Everything has a counter. Two HA HMGers (arguably the rine version of Onos) don't stand a chance against 1 decent onos that can eat and run. The same could be said of JPers against a couple focus skulks or a focus fade. If you see a heavy train, you need onos stomp and devour. If you see a JP rush you need lerk spores+focus. Aliens just have to coordinate like marines do and things get a lot more equal, maybe even lopsided in the aliens favor.
And yes, 1.04 limitless skulk rushes were good times, but I still prefer the current hive-unchained fade and onos.
Aliens cannot do that which gives them an inherent disadvantage.
Also, the problem with aliens staying in groups is that a single hand nade or GL can seriously screw them up. They need to stay at least an explosion's distance away to prevent from being ganked all at once, which makes co-ordination without good VOIP (which I am starting to think most NS players do NOT have a microphone for). With marines at least you see something move, you shoot it. With aliens it's not quite that simple <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
PS - freight train, if you ever played back in 1.04, you know the kind of suicide rushes Im talking about. You just lost third hive after half an hour of fighting for it, the commander has saved enough res for an HA/HMG-GL/Welder rush towards one of the other two hives. Your gorge re-builds hive 3 as the marines are incoming to hive 2, so the entirety of the alien team is trying to hold them back just long enough for hive three abilities and onos (cause back then, no hive 3 = no onos cause you couldn't save enough res). Fades bile bombing, lerks spiking, skulks leaping in and biting and screaching, gorges spitting and healspraying and using their hive 2 of the time (I think it was webs back then? Or was it babblers?). A struggle like that could last well untill the hive 3 built, and only then would the aliens begin to push back effectively. Onos back then were a thing of power and fear thanks to their hitbox bug and the IMMENSE HP effect of armor back in 1.04. Combine that with the fact that DC's had no stacking penalties (why said penalties were implemented, I will NEVER understand) and the aliens had no focus, and it made for an interesting game <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> I love every second of it!
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm quite sure combat was put in NOT to replicate those situations. It's sad how almost every combat server around uses lvl 50 + 1 million other mods and has 32 slots.
Also, given the upgrades you can get in combat, skulks can stand up to marines with shotguns quite easily.