<!--quoteo(post=1612752:date=Mar 9 2007, 01:37 AM:name=exoity)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(exoity @ Mar 9 2007, 01:37 AM) [snapback]1612752[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> As much as a shocker it may be, I have not been in a clan in over two years. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just wondering... aren't CX and Xen (or at least Xen) fairly recent clans? just looking at your sig
<!--quoteo(post=1612773:date=Mar 8 2007, 06:19 PM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Mar 8 2007, 06:19 PM) [snapback]1612773[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Just wondering... aren't CX and Xen (or at least Xen) fairly recent clans? just looking at your sig <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> He was in all those clans at the same time ( <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> ), and it was pretty long ago that they were all active at the same time.
<!--quoteo(post=1612773:date=Mar 8 2007, 09:19 PM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Mar 8 2007, 09:19 PM) [snapback]1612773[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Just wondering... aren't CX and Xen (or at least Xen) fairly recent clans? just looking at your sig <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
cX and xen are old 2.0 clans. I was rather suprised when I say a new xen, as I did not see any of the founding members in it that I had remembered.
The clans from my sig are from 1.04 and 2.0 days. (and that means 1.04 #cri, not 2.0 "We will let anyone in" cri). Also as a trip down member lane, I was in #cri more then once <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1612191:date=Mar 7 2007, 11:19 AM:name=Thief)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Thief @ Mar 7 2007, 11:19 AM) [snapback]1612191[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I Enjoy Natural Selection <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I couldn't agree more with this one. QFT FTW!!! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1612247:date=Mar 7 2007, 02:04 PM:name=MrBen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MrBen @ Mar 7 2007, 02:04 PM) [snapback]1612247[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> The following is a true story and accurate anaylsis of 3.2 balance.:
Whatever team I join wins.
Unless tutu is also on this team.
Whatever team tutu is on loses, even if I am also on it.
Moral of the story: Stack me, not tutu. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ROFL! That does <i>seem</i> to be the case most of the time, yes. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1612251:date=Mar 7 2007, 02:16 PM:name=Priestly)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Priestly @ Mar 7 2007, 02:16 PM) [snapback]1612251[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Well this is going to end well. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really. Unless we have jigawatts.
<!--quoteo(post=1612264:date=Mar 7 2007, 03:02 PM:name=Golden)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Golden @ Mar 7 2007, 03:02 PM) [snapback]1612264[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Actually, most of the PTs aren't competitive players. It only looks like it all the PTs are because we're the ones who actual post in public places. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1611882:date=Mar 6 2007, 05:42 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Flayra @ Mar 6 2007, 05:42 PM) [snapback]1611882[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> As always, we ask that you not judge patches until you've played them for a few weeks. It always takes this amount of time for people to adapt their playing styles and even changes that seem horribly unbalanced at first often come around. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Adapt their playing". you mean ? -1.0x -Spawn kill + JP/HMG dominant strategy. When i say dominant you can understand the uniq strategy (at least at the end). The only times i saw teams doing HA stuff was when they were sure of victory from the begining. -Easy to destroy a TF and unlock hives. -DC is dominant chamber. Some were risking MC or SC first but only if victory was assured. Meaning the teams knows the oponent skill.
-2.0x -Early alien rush, all to MS... for the horde!! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> -Turet farming... Hmm bunker farming until the server crashes -Alien Clan play was oriented on 1 hive strategy : a bet". -Marins were locking most of the time. Only (for what i saw) 100% sure shot team were risking other strats. -While locking the hives the com was trying to find the 2 gorges ready to build RTs . Then dispatch marins to target the alien RTs ASAP. -HA become the new marins favorite (because of nerfed JP, close to unplayable) -DC still is dominant but some teams tried new things like SC based strategy.
-3.0 - 3.1 -HA or JP rush works but before that; it's a fight for denying the second hive. Better wait for rush or even siege instead of letting alien have a second hive. -Fades are the boss => good fades and BTW survival of fades decide of the ending. -MC is dominant chamber.
So: For what i saw each game version was 'something' oriented and teams were only applying the same plan over and over. Because the plan was the most effective, fast and cheaper they could find. A routine....
3.20 -Obviously each bullet count. Good point!! I'm not whinning anymore about lag issue (at least a little less <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> ). -The only games i saw that alien won was games were marins were unorganized or not enough skilled to kill a single skulk. Each of these games were full of OC spam and / or "NO COMMANDER" take the chair.
So if it is adapting the playing: why not pushing as much as they can on MS at the begining. Like in 2.0 but here; rush the base during all the game. keeping of course some to build one or two RTs and take care of marins in the map. The psychological impact would make the marins cease from getting outside easely. A MS lock if you like.
Is this all alien got for a win ? Is this the only plan for this version ? I'd like to see a game wich enable different strategies on 1 version and not 1 Strat at each version.
3.2 is the first version where all 3 chambers are well balanced if you know how yo adjust your tactics as necessary. That's huge. I disagree the MC is dominate. SC is now perfect to counter that early SG rush. DC is an equally good first hive chamber. MC is only handy as one hive chamber, you should never just let marines lock down two hives and if you do you better have much more resource control.
In fact after playing lots of game of 3.2 it's now as simple has who hold more nodes early on for longer (and who looses more too). I wish there was more ability for a come back but the resource domination reigns supreme particularly early on.
So those are two huge things which I'm really very happy to see that the focus is on teamplay, resource control, hive control, and chamber balance. Say what you will about 3.2 but that stuff has gotten a lot better. Sensory in 2.01 was practically useless and so it was pretty much always DMS order. Marines can still turtle well but not if you have skilled xenociders and bile bombing gorges, so now it's a skill/experience factor.
Tactics have gotten better but strategy has gotten more noobish. In fact one commander with decent marine players where that commander is brilliant at giving strategic orders and tactic tips over the mic and the marines can win over and over on public servers. Marines need the commander to have voice, all of the aliens really need voice. Aliens able to communicate and scout well can use quick respond teamwork to foil any marine advance. I wish more people would try early relocations though; they seem less common now.
Yes 3.2 is really well balanced so the team with the most rts most often wins. in a 6vs6 or 8vs8 game the both teams have almost equal chances at capping and killing each others restowers, the marines have better firepower in the beginning but no speed so alien can just avoid large groups of marines and kill of the ones soloing, hit base or just simply outmanuevering them. In a 15vs15 game there is enough marines to be all over the map at the same time, they can hold their rts, push alien rts, lockdown hives all at once and aliens will have a really hard time just defending their own because all the marines will be in groups and marine firepower stacks. So when the aliens gets fades and possibly a second hive the marines will most likely have had lots of res for a long time allowing them to keep the third hive locked down and proto tech coming. This would most likely not have been possible in a 6vs6 where the marine team would have to choose between locking down and teching up or between attacking and holding, 15vs15 just removes the importance of strategical and tactical decisions.
To balance this you would have to redo all the maps, scale structure hp with players, scale marine upgrade cost with players, redo the resource system, worth it?.
It completely reduces the importance of tactical decisions and individual skill, why do you even play it?
Heh. I'm just thinking of what a 32v32 game would be like... (ie: HL2 & mods)
I like both massive servers and small ones. With a few players NS become a scary stealth action game. With a large number of players it becomes a huge battle which is a crazy, stretch to the limits kind of fun which unfortunately does seem to not balance well. But for the record I like both and yes I'd play on either kind of server.
Btw, you can't play NS with any less than 4 or 5 people, and combat 1v1 means whomever get the the first two level edge early on the other wins.
I'm a twenty-eight year old 'weekend-only' NS-Player since the Halloween release some years ago and I never cared much for the competitive clan-aspect from Natural Selection (ok, i supported a german fansite for about a year and watched some HLTV-games), but the public gameplay is getting boring more and more.
Imho the community (especially in europe) is a big subject/problem, getting splitted into two groups: The highskilled "lol, your nick is NSPlayer!" veterans and the "How do we get better weapons?" newbies, but that's (a) natural selection like in many other multiplayergames ("CS Beta 3.1 forever", "The DOD masterversion is crap", and so on).
But, and that's why I'm posting here in with my broken english: With every new NS-patch, public games are getting more predictable. Simple and short games without excitement and suprises. Marines: Getting as many res nodes as possible. Wait. Upgrades. Wait. Dominate the aliens. Aliens: Getting as many res nodes as possible. Hurry. Build second Hive. Hurry. Getting pwned by the marines, because of tech advance, OR Alien win at the marine fortre<i>..erm.. </i>base (if Commander left/Highskilled Res###### Fades/Marines making big mistakes).
<u>Every</u> NS-Version was a lot of fun (so is the new one), and I don't want to look back (sentry farms around a single restower, one minute skulkrushs, "RedRoom" camping for hours, ...remember?) to glorify a special one, all I'm saying is that the game itself becomes too <i>... hmm</i> polished. It's a one hour playing diamond, and not the 'half of the night' solid boulder anymore.
<!--quoteo(post=1612976:date=Mar 10 2007, 02:48 AM:name=Finawin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Finawin @ Mar 10 2007, 02:48 AM) [snapback]1612976[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> "that early SG rush" and how often do you see this?! <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very frequently, particularly if the marines know/think you have gone mc first. SC is NOT useless against a good commander, it makes skulks actually scary & useful. If a comm has to spam scan &/or obs everywhere he is putting a lot of res into countering only 1 ability.
I have to agree with Wahooka, NS has almost become <i>too</i> slick. all the jaggies have been sliced off and we're left without the, uh... <i>texture</i> of the earlier versions. It is a sad part of the natural maturing process of a game. I think this largely comes from changing the game to pander to the wants of competitive players who want more predictable "smoother" gameplay; a "do THIS for THIS result" rather than the more abstract, dare i say <i>artistic</i> unpredictability that really gives a game atmosphere and texture. NS isn't the rough diamond it used to be, its been polished and shinied up and had all the dirty interesting bits removed. But then i always did prefer uncut gemstones.
Now, I may be still a newbie to NS, I have played on and off since 04', never competitively really, and I've never been great at the game, hell I'm probably one of the worst players out there. But I do have a good eye for spotting good players, and not just players who are macroing or using scripts on a mp_bs 0 server, actual good players.
That being said, Aliens I think have gotten a boost. While it <i>is</i> taking some people time to get used to +movement, I've seen some guys use it brilliantly. Skulks zooming across maps even more accurate and faster killing cause they can tap +movement and +attack in a quicker fashion. Fades that can just murder a group of Marines in some blinding fast hit-n-runs even more so than their past ability.
Maybe some changes, have the appearance of making things imbalanced. Personally, I think they are in line. While Gorge web's no longer insta-stop a Marine, Onos got a nice boost in the old defense. While Onos charge got slightly nerfed, they also got the extra +movement that helps all Aliens maneuver if the ability is there. Yes, "ghost" buildings can be a real ###### to deal with. Not often but I've seen it happen; Marine is going somewhere, he drops a building or a commander drops one (depending upon ns_ or co_) and yes an Alien touched it before the building began being built, poof it's gone.
Do some things need possible tweaking? Maybe, time will tell. Is it perfect? No game ends up being perfect in a communities eyes, there will always be a player or group of players wanting something different or changed. But it's not some game ending patch. I remember years ago there were twice or three times as many servers open as today, but the game hangs on. It hung on through 3.0+ worth of versions and patches, it'll hang through 3.2 even if there are some that are violently against it.
Finawin, you've done nothing but complain about how terrible aliens are since you signed up, and you've never bothered to back up any of your complaints with anything other than assertions. Quite frankly you lack credibility. And then you were in such a hurry to insult Maverick's post that you didn't even take the time to understand what he was saying, so you got it totally wrong.
Try saying something nice for once. You might find you like it.
Yeah fin, you gotta learn to consider all sides of an argument as a first step. Your first step is to see if it agrees with you; if it doesnt, your second step is to completely insult the person. You'll never get an ounce of credibility doing so, and frankly i wouldnt be surprised if you're banned from these forums soon for all the flaming you've done.
I think the new fade is better than the old, but only once you've adapted to the new controls and tactics.
The new onos is better in real terms. Charge wasn't nerfed whatsoever, it became far far more useful!
The lerk honestly feels just as powerful as before, cept that you cant abuse it with a triple jump script. Which is a very good thing.
All chambers are equal? Almost. SC needs a boost, even a small one (scs lower the Scan time by 2 seconds maybe? check the I&S forums about this). And 15v15 SC-first is pointless, most other server sizes, it has a strong chance.
Heck, even the minimap updates help the aliens. Everyone focuses on the marines being able to see rts being hit; well, aliens can now too. Yes, i know that before, everyone got a notification, but it wasnt as easily viewable as on the minimap. You had to look for it, then the minimap, and often it would be out of range. Now the alien 'commanders' (the players who vocally direct the aliens on a fairly continuous basis) can shout out warnings and such with much more precision.
I dunno. I think the boosts and nerfs on both sides equal themselves out. Balanced again, in my opinion.
And worst of all Fin, because of Message Board Physics, the more attention you give to retarded posts, the more retarded the board becomes as a whole. You're actually causing the discussion to lose intelligence by pointing out when someone says something stupid.
<!--quoteo(post=1613062:date=Mar 9 2007, 08:59 PM:name=kamikazegoat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kamikazegoat @ Mar 9 2007, 08:59 PM) [snapback]1613062[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> One word will make everyone happy........ Ready for it? Babblers. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That just tells me you don't know how to use the new Charge yet.
Is there a drawback to the new charge? Sure. The drawback is that you have to be careful not to hit the guy with charge before you eat him, because the knockback will throw him out of range.
Stopping in the middle of the room is NOT the drawback to charge. You only have to stop long enough to do whatever you wanted to get done in that room, then you can Charge right back out. This is a benefit, not a drawback, as before you didn't have the choice of stopping. You kept on moving at max speed until you ran out of energy, and THEN you stopped like a rock. Now you can charge a bit, do something else, then charge some more.
The key is not to treat charge like a weapon, but more like Leap or Blink--its a way to move around, not a way to kill people. This shouldn't be too much of a change, since Charge wasn't really an effective damage dealer before either. Maybe back in 1.04, but not recently.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have better things to do than write up books on my clearly stated opinions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> havent you been doing that now? im pretty sure i could compile a complete book of you saying the same thing over and over without anything new.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you think aliens got a BOOST to their game, you're on crack. End of story damnit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <b>A</b> boost. Every "boost" he talked about is true. Movement is a HUGE advantage, it just takes adjustment. hive teleportation is a HUGE advantage on ff-off servers, you just have to have someone stay and use the hive. chamber diversity is a HUGE advantage, you can counter rine strats now. they got nerfs too(and serious ones), but mostly late-game. 3.2 wasn't just "hay guys, lets rape aliens!!!!" so pull your head out and open up a bit. There was a definite alien advantage in 3.1. no one ever even bothered to get 3 hives, because if you got your second hive up on time and still had a fade + lerk you could walk all over the rines (barring rediculous res control & tech on the marine side) with leap, bile, meta, umbra and pancaking. Now you dont have hive2 armor, so your weaker, so hit AA before it goes up(even better, before phase tech goes up), CHEW those rts like no other, save your own rts, and drop the 2nd hive fast. You can win.
<!--quoteo(post=1613071:date=Mar 9 2007, 08:16 PM:name=Femme_Fatale)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Femme_Fatale @ Mar 9 2007, 08:16 PM) [snapback]1613071[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> i think i love you <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hehe, "Designated Gorge" Yeah, I had a feeling YOU would get all tingly for that one.
Onos charge... NERF-Central. Makes me want to vomit. The only USEFUL thing about it IS the knockback. Which I stated CLEARLY in my "Novelesque" posts on page 6.
Most of these "new balance changes" suck the big floppy donkey dong... tbh...
When the marines were underpowered it was still fun to play when you were getting slaughtered... its not, however, fun to play when you can easily obliterate the aliens with a tenth of the effort it used to require...
I went on a knifing spree the other day before deciding it was time to give up for now, and managed to knife kill a half dozen lerks, a couple of fades, (All as they blinked or flew past me after i shot em silly) and countless COUNTLESS skulks... WAY easier than usual...
Hey guys, guess what? I won 7 straight games as aliens on the <BAD> server. I guess this means aliens are overpowered. OH NOES <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tiny.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::onos::" border="0" alt="tiny.gif" />
I can win consistently as aliens as well... I have no PROBLEM winning, the way the alien team FEELS and RESPONDS sucks ######. And to win you have to have a completely incompetent marine team... tbh... it eats ######.
<!--quoteo(post=1611872:date=Mar 6 2007, 10:18 PM:name=DuoGodOfDeath)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DuoGodOfDeath @ Mar 6 2007, 10:18 PM) [snapback]1611872[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> HMGs need to be nerfed a little and fades are just a piece of paper that get evaporated at the very sight of a foot step. My only complaints.
The Onos thing needs to be thought more wide than narrow. You have to remember Marines need an IP -> Armory -> Advanced Armory -> Arms Lab -> Obs -> Proto Lab -> Upgrade to JP -> then finally dropping the stuff. And I don't feel like counting numbers so I'll throw a random one out to a probable 300 res or more just to get up to jetpacks and all the other goodies like Armor/Weapon upgrades. Dropping RTs ect ect ect and a few more ect. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
not 300, but i dont feel like counting either so ill say less than 200, but it should require armor 2 and (maybe) weapons 2.
<!--quoteo(post=1611884:date=Mar 6 2007, 11:00 PM:name=Femme_Fatale)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Femme_Fatale @ Mar 6 2007, 11:00 PM) [snapback]1611884[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> honestly,for big servers it doesnt look good. out of the 50 odd games i've played since the new version got released roughly 11 were alien wins. thats a 32 slot server. surprisingly, skulks are the ones that rack up the most kills now. i dunno,its as usual not the end of NS. But for big servers it might be a severe blow. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There should be adjustment for the increase in players... such as 10v10 and up.
Well since you decided to quote me I had to go in game and do everything. With every structure I named plus adding weapons 2 and armor 2 it came to like 270. I didn't add PG or MT to that so it would be higher. Then you have to think about meds/ammo/ and dropping RTs. So basically its a default 270/75 trade off.
ChocolateThe Team MascotJoin Date: 2006-10-31Member: 58123Members
edited March 2007
<!--quoteo(post=1612106:date=Mar 7 2007, 08:32 AM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Mar 7 2007, 08:32 AM) [snapback]1612106[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Pebbler, the hell are you talking about? That was a 44 minute game! It was AWESOME! We had those two hives for soooo long, and made like 6 attempts on the third as well as Marine Start. Each time we lost either of those objectives by a hair. How is that NOT balanced?! Just because we lost in the end?
The kill count doesnt matter and you should know that. A player who goes 0/10 but kills that pg or AA pulls his weight just as much as a player who goes 50/0, not only because of his direct actions but even from distracting the rines for his fellow aliens to smite them.
And again, I played on G4B2S for like 4 hours tonight, and had an absolute blast. And aliens won what, 2 pr 3/6 rounds? Actually more if you count the two quickies (<5 mins). <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah! Same here, I hade tonnes of fun that day on NS. I do admit that its quite a bit harder for aliens now tho, although it kinda was the opposite in 3.1. (I'm talking for the 30 player servers here)
Im that 0/10 person usually (that game more like 7/40 and in the other 10/13 (Im a terrible player too) <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />) but I'm gorge +1/2 of the game. Gorge is the greatest asset, until we got half the team gorge <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />.
Another Side Note: <!--quoteo(post=1612259:date=Mar 7 2007, 07:47 PM:name=commofdoom)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(commofdoom @ Mar 7 2007, 07:47 PM) [snapback]1612259[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> ... new players are not coming to ns. the learning curve is still high. combat detrains players. skulks become useless after 8 min or so. kharaa in general are just not fun to play. ... <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I kinda support that. Last week I showed my friend Natural Selection and he loved it alot. He played Classic untill he played CO. Now he hasent been playing any NS and has been laying CO all this time. He says that it is much easier for CO because the learning curve of NS is too great, which makes me sad.
Basically, I admittedly say that NS is in a decline, or has atleast already hit its peak (untill maybe NS2 comes out). Getting more on track, I love 3.2, its probably the best one that I can remember (from 1.x - 3.0 i havent been paying much attention to the community or the game) but for every 1 person that loves it, 2 others don't. Something should be done for the large +20 servers themselves because its those servers which have a large part of the standing community, especially considering that it seems that 3.2 only worsend the unbalance.
PS: I havent read the last... 5 pages....
Edit: After reading all the pages (that took hours) i still support my 2ed to last paragagh, but to a slightly lesser extent. We should jsut give some time for everyone to get used to the new stuff, then come back to the topic.
Comments
As much as a shocker it may be, I have not been in a clan in over two years.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just wondering... aren't CX and Xen (or at least Xen) fairly recent clans? just looking at your sig
Just wondering... aren't CX and Xen (or at least Xen) fairly recent clans? just looking at your sig
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He was in all those clans at the same time ( <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> ), and it was pretty long ago that they were all active at the same time.
Just wondering... aren't CX and Xen (or at least Xen) fairly recent clans? just looking at your sig
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
cX and xen are old 2.0 clans. I was rather suprised when I say a new xen, as I did not see any of the founding members in it that I had remembered.
The clans from my sig are from 1.04 and 2.0 days. (and that means 1.04 #cri, not 2.0 "We will let anyone in" cri). Also as a trip down member lane, I was in #cri more then once <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
I Enjoy Natural Selection
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I couldn't agree more with this one. QFT FTW!!! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1612247:date=Mar 7 2007, 02:04 PM:name=MrBen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MrBen @ Mar 7 2007, 02:04 PM) [snapback]1612247[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
The following is a true story and accurate anaylsis of 3.2 balance.:
Whatever team I join wins.
Unless tutu is also on this team.
Whatever team tutu is on loses, even if I am also on it.
Moral of the story: Stack me, not tutu.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ROFL! That does <i>seem</i> to be the case most of the time, yes. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1612251:date=Mar 7 2007, 02:16 PM:name=Priestly)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Priestly @ Mar 7 2007, 02:16 PM) [snapback]1612251[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Well this is going to end well.
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Not really. Unless we have jigawatts.
<!--quoteo(post=1612264:date=Mar 7 2007, 03:02 PM:name=Golden)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Golden @ Mar 7 2007, 03:02 PM) [snapback]1612264[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Actually, most of the PTs aren't competitive players. It only looks like it all the PTs are because we're the ones who actual post in public places.
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Also QFT.
As always, we ask that you not judge patches until you've played them for a few weeks. It always takes this amount of time for people to adapt their playing styles and even changes that seem horribly unbalanced at first often come around.
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"Adapt their playing". you mean ?
-1.0x
-Spawn kill + JP/HMG dominant strategy. When i say dominant you can understand the uniq strategy (at least at the end). The only times i saw teams doing HA stuff was when they were sure of victory from the begining.
-Easy to destroy a TF and unlock hives.
-DC is dominant chamber. Some were risking MC or SC first but only if victory was assured. Meaning the teams knows the oponent skill.
-2.0x
-Early alien rush, all to MS... for the horde!! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
-Turet farming... Hmm bunker farming until the server crashes
-Alien Clan play was oriented on 1 hive strategy : a bet".
-Marins were locking most of the time. Only (for what i saw) 100% sure shot team were risking other strats.
-While locking the hives the com was trying to find the 2 gorges ready to build RTs . Then dispatch marins to target the alien RTs ASAP.
-HA become the new marins favorite (because of nerfed JP, close to unplayable)
-DC still is dominant but some teams tried new things like SC based strategy.
-3.0 - 3.1
-HA or JP rush works but before that; it's a fight for denying the second hive. Better wait for rush or even siege instead of letting alien have a second hive.
-Fades are the boss => good fades and BTW survival of fades decide of the ending.
-MC is dominant chamber.
So:
For what i saw each game version was 'something' oriented and teams were only applying the same plan over and over. Because the plan was the most effective, fast and cheaper they could find. A routine....
3.20
-Obviously each bullet count. Good point!! I'm not whinning anymore about lag issue (at least a little less <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> ).
-The only games i saw that alien won was games were marins were unorganized or not enough skilled to kill a single skulk. Each of these games were full of OC spam and / or "NO COMMANDER" take the chair.
So if it is adapting the playing:
why not pushing as much as they can on MS at the begining. Like in 2.0 but here; rush the base during all the game. keeping of course some to build one or two RTs and take care of marins in the map. The psychological impact would make the marins cease from getting outside easely. A MS lock if you like.
Is this all alien got for a win ? Is this the only plan for this version ? I'd like to see a game wich enable different strategies on 1 version and not 1 Strat at each version.
In fact after playing lots of game of 3.2 it's now as simple has who hold more nodes early on for longer (and who looses more too). I wish there was more ability for a come back but the resource domination reigns supreme particularly early on.
So those are two huge things which I'm really very happy to see that the focus is on teamplay, resource control, hive control, and chamber balance. Say what you will about 3.2 but that stuff has gotten a lot better. Sensory in 2.01 was practically useless and so it was pretty much always DMS order. Marines can still turtle well but not if you have skilled xenociders and bile bombing gorges, so now it's a skill/experience factor.
Tactics have gotten better but strategy has gotten more noobish. In fact one commander with decent marine players where that commander is brilliant at giving strategic orders and tactic tips over the mic and the marines can win over and over on public servers. Marines need the commander to have voice, all of the aliens really need voice. Aliens able to communicate and scout well can use quick respond teamwork to foil any marine advance. I wish more people would try early relocations though; they seem less common now.
To balance this you would have to redo all the maps, scale structure hp with players, scale marine upgrade cost with players, redo the resource system, worth it?.
It completely reduces the importance of tactical decisions and individual skill, why do you even play it?
I like both massive servers and small ones. With a few players NS become a scary stealth action game. With a large number of players it becomes a huge battle which is a crazy, stretch to the limits kind of fun which unfortunately does seem to not balance well. But for the record I like both and yes I'd play on either kind of server.
Btw, you can't play NS with any less than 4 or 5 people, and combat 1v1 means whomever get the the first two level edge early on the other wins.
Imho the community (especially in europe) is a big subject/problem, getting splitted into two groups: The highskilled "lol, your nick is NSPlayer!" veterans and the "How do we get better weapons?" newbies, but that's (a) natural selection like in many other multiplayergames ("CS Beta 3.1 forever", "The DOD masterversion is crap", and so on).
But, and that's why I'm posting here in with my broken english: With every new NS-patch, public games are getting more predictable. Simple and short games without excitement and suprises.
Marines: Getting as many res nodes as possible. Wait. Upgrades. Wait. Dominate the aliens.
Aliens: Getting as many res nodes as possible. Hurry. Build second Hive. Hurry. Getting pwned by the marines, because of tech advance, OR Alien win at the marine fortre<i>..erm.. </i>base (if Commander left/Highskilled Res###### Fades/Marines making big mistakes).
<u>Every</u> NS-Version was a lot of fun (so is the new one), and I don't want to look back (sentry farms around a single restower, one minute skulkrushs, "RedRoom" camping for hours, ...remember?) to glorify a special one, all I'm saying is that the game itself becomes too <i>... hmm</i> polished. It's a one hour playing diamond, and not the
'half of the night' solid boulder anymore.
Anyway
Keep up the good work!
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
"that early SG rush" and how often do you see this?!
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Very frequently, particularly if the marines know/think you have gone mc first. SC is NOT useless against a good commander, it makes skulks actually scary & useful. If a comm has to spam scan &/or obs everywhere he is putting a lot of res into countering only 1 ability.
I have to agree with Wahooka, NS has almost become <i>too</i> slick. all the jaggies have been sliced off and we're left without the, uh... <i>texture</i> of the earlier versions. It is a sad part of the natural maturing process of a game. I think this largely comes from changing the game to pander to the wants of competitive players who want more predictable "smoother" gameplay; a "do THIS for THIS result" rather than the more abstract, dare i say <i>artistic</i> unpredictability that really gives a game atmosphere and texture. NS isn't the rough diamond it used to be, its been polished and shinied up and had all the dirty interesting bits removed. But then i always did prefer uncut gemstones.
Now, I may be still a newbie to NS, I have played on and off since 04', never competitively really, and I've never been great at the game, hell I'm probably one of the worst players out there. But I do have a good eye for spotting good players, and not just players who are macroing or using scripts on a mp_bs 0 server, actual good players.
That being said, Aliens I think have gotten a boost. While it <i>is</i> taking some people time to get used to +movement, I've seen some guys use it brilliantly. Skulks zooming across maps even more accurate and faster killing cause they can tap +movement and +attack in a quicker fashion. Fades that can just murder a group of Marines in some blinding fast hit-n-runs even more so than their past ability.
Maybe some changes, have the appearance of making things imbalanced. Personally, I think they are in line. While Gorge web's no longer insta-stop a Marine, Onos got a nice boost in the old defense. While Onos charge got slightly nerfed, they also got the extra +movement that helps all Aliens maneuver if the ability is there. Yes, "ghost" buildings can be a real ###### to deal with. Not often but I've seen it happen; Marine is going somewhere, he drops a building or a commander drops one (depending upon ns_ or co_) and yes an Alien touched it before the building began being built, poof it's gone.
Do some things need possible tweaking? Maybe, time will tell. Is it perfect? No game ends up being perfect in a communities eyes, there will always be a player or group of players wanting something different or changed. But it's not some game ending patch. I remember years ago there were twice or three times as many servers open as today, but the game hangs on. It hung on through 3.0+ worth of versions and patches, it'll hang through 3.2 even if there are some that are violently against it.
Try saying something nice for once. You might find you like it.
Chambers ARE balanced now, and equally usefull.
I think the new fade is better than the old, but only once you've adapted to the new controls and tactics.
The new onos is better in real terms. Charge wasn't nerfed whatsoever, it became far far more useful!
The lerk honestly feels just as powerful as before, cept that you cant abuse it with a triple jump script. Which is a very good thing.
All chambers are equal? Almost. SC needs a boost, even a small one (scs lower the Scan time by 2 seconds maybe? check the I&S forums about this). And 15v15 SC-first is pointless, most other server sizes, it has a strong chance.
Heck, even the minimap updates help the aliens. Everyone focuses on the marines being able to see rts being hit; well, aliens can now too. Yes, i know that before, everyone got a notification, but it wasnt as easily viewable as on the minimap. You had to look for it, then the minimap, and often it would be out of range. Now the alien 'commanders' (the players who vocally direct the aliens on a fairly continuous basis) can shout out warnings and such with much more precision.
I dunno. I think the boosts and nerfs on both sides equal themselves out. Balanced again, in my opinion.
Babblers.
One word will make everyone happy........ Ready for it?
Babblers.
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i think i love you
Is there a drawback to the new charge? Sure. The drawback is that you have to be careful not to hit the guy with charge before you eat him, because the knockback will throw him out of range.
Stopping in the middle of the room is NOT the drawback to charge. You only have to stop long enough to do whatever you wanted to get done in that room, then you can Charge right back out. This is a benefit, not a drawback, as before you didn't have the choice of stopping. You kept on moving at max speed until you ran out of energy, and THEN you stopped like a rock. Now you can charge a bit, do something else, then charge some more.
The key is not to treat charge like a weapon, but more like Leap or Blink--its a way to move around, not a way to kill people. This shouldn't be too much of a change, since Charge wasn't really an effective damage dealer before either. Maybe back in 1.04, but not recently.
i can chargedevour as normal......
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<b>A</b> boost. Every "boost" he talked about is true. Movement is a HUGE advantage, it just takes adjustment. hive teleportation is a HUGE advantage on ff-off servers, you just have to have someone stay and use the hive. chamber diversity is a HUGE advantage, you can counter rine strats now. they got nerfs too(and serious ones), but mostly late-game. 3.2 wasn't just "hay guys, lets rape aliens!!!!" so pull your head out and open up a bit. There was a definite alien advantage in 3.1. no one ever even bothered to get 3 hives, because if you got your second hive up on time and still had a fade + lerk you could walk all over the rines (barring rediculous res control & tech on the marine side) with leap, bile, meta, umbra and pancaking. Now you dont have hive2 armor, so your weaker, so hit AA before it goes up(even better, before phase tech goes up), CHEW those rts like no other, save your own rts, and drop the 2nd hive fast. You can win.
i think i love you
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Hehe, "Designated Gorge" Yeah, I had a feeling YOU would get all tingly for that one.
Onos charge... NERF-Central. Makes me want to vomit. The only USEFUL thing about it IS the knockback. Which I stated CLEARLY in my "Novelesque" posts on page 6.
Most of these "new balance changes" suck the big floppy donkey dong... tbh...
When the marines were underpowered it was still fun to play when you were getting slaughtered... its not, however, fun to play when you can easily obliterate the aliens with a tenth of the effort it used to require...
I went on a knifing spree the other day before deciding it was time to give up for now, and managed to knife kill a half dozen lerks, a couple of fades, (All as they blinked or flew past me after i shot em silly) and countless COUNTLESS skulks... WAY easier than usual...
Oh btw, 4 pistol shots... swipe. Dead skulk... TBH
HMGs need to be nerfed a little and fades are just a piece of paper that get evaporated at the very sight of a foot step. My only complaints.
The Onos thing needs to be thought more wide than narrow. You have to remember Marines need an IP -> Armory -> Advanced Armory -> Arms Lab -> Obs -> Proto Lab -> Upgrade to JP -> then finally dropping the stuff. And I don't feel like counting numbers so I'll throw a random one out to a probable 300 res or more just to get up to jetpacks and all the other goodies like Armor/Weapon upgrades. Dropping RTs ect ect ect and a few more ect.
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not 300, but i dont feel like counting either so ill say less than 200, but it should require armor 2 and (maybe) weapons 2.
<!--quoteo(post=1611884:date=Mar 6 2007, 11:00 PM:name=Femme_Fatale)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Femme_Fatale @ Mar 6 2007, 11:00 PM) [snapback]1611884[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
honestly,for big servers it doesnt look good.
out of the 50 odd games i've played since the new version got released roughly 11 were alien wins.
thats a 32 slot server.
surprisingly, skulks are the ones that rack up the most kills now.
i dunno,its as usual not the end of NS.
But for big servers it might be a severe blow.
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There should be adjustment for the increase in players... such as 10v10 and up.
Pebbler, the hell are you talking about? That was a 44 minute game! It was AWESOME! We had those two hives for soooo long, and made like 6 attempts on the third as well as Marine Start. Each time we lost either of those objectives by a hair. How is that NOT balanced?! Just because we lost in the end?
The kill count doesnt matter and you should know that. A player who goes 0/10 but kills that pg or AA pulls his weight just as much as a player who goes 50/0, not only because of his direct actions but even from distracting the rines for his fellow aliens to smite them.
And again, I played on G4B2S for like 4 hours tonight, and had an absolute blast. And aliens won what, 2 pr 3/6 rounds? Actually more if you count the two quickies (<5 mins).
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Yeah! Same here, I hade tonnes of fun that day on NS. I do admit that its quite a bit harder for aliens now tho, although it kinda was the opposite in 3.1. (I'm talking for the 30 player servers here)
Im that 0/10 person usually (that game more like 7/40 and in the other 10/13 (Im a terrible player too) <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />) but I'm gorge +1/2 of the game. Gorge is the greatest asset, until we got half the team gorge <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />.
Another Side Note:
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...
new players are not coming to ns. the learning curve is still high. combat detrains players. skulks become useless after 8 min or so. kharaa in general are just not fun to play.
...
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I kinda support that. Last week I showed my friend Natural Selection and he loved it alot. He played Classic untill he played CO. Now he hasent been playing any NS and has been laying CO all this time. He says that it is much easier for CO because the learning curve of NS is too great, which makes me sad.
Basically, I admittedly say that NS is in a decline, or has atleast already hit its peak (untill maybe NS2 comes out). Getting more on track, I love 3.2, its probably the best one that I can remember (from 1.x - 3.0 i havent been paying much attention to the community or the game) but for every 1 person that loves it, 2 others don't. Something should be done for the large +20 servers themselves because its those servers which have a large part of the standing community, especially considering that it seems that 3.2 only worsend the unbalance.
PS: I havent read the last... 5 pages....
Edit: After reading all the pages (that took hours) i still support my 2ed to last paragagh, but to a slightly lesser extent. We should jsut give some time for everyone to get used to the new stuff, then come back to the topic.