Aliens could attack at any time

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  • UltimaGeckoUltimaGecko hates endnotes Join Date: 2003-05-14 Member: 16320Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1611601:date=Mar 5 2007, 05:40 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Mar 5 2007, 05:40 PM) [snapback]1611601[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    If they want hydrogen, they'll just take Jupiter and we'll be off fine. The problem is, nobody wants hydrogen. Everybody has hydrogen. Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe. They'll want heavier elements. Elements like iron, or silicon. And... we kinda have those. A lot.

    As for blowing the planet into small manageable chunks and getting rid of those pesky primitive lifeforms running around on it, they can kill two birds with one stone, since the former accomplishes the latter nicely. And speaking of stone, one of the easiest ways to do that would probably be hooking some propulsion equipment up to a sufficiently big asteroid that's headed roughly our way and then making sure that it's headed EXACTLY our way instead. Again, probably a simple feat for a spacefaring race.
    Actually, never mind. Blowing the planet into small manageable chunks is actually very hard, and not accomplished with your average asteroid. Wiping out life on it, however, can be done that way. After that you can take all the time in the world to strip-mine your new virtually limitless source of iron and silicon to your heart's content.
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    Despite the lucrative amounts of raw materials on our planet, the spread is rather diverse throughout our own solar system (nevermind other star systems), and it's unlikely that an alien race would bother to kill off humanity for some iron or nickel, which it could more easily obtain from mars or Io or somewhere else, where it wouldn't have to deal with exhausted crustal deposits, unusable human waste byproducts and pesky cities. I doubt very much that aliens would really need iron or a majority of other elements either (elements below iron on the periodic table are some of the most abundant (including titanium, silicon and beryllium). It's unlikely that our planet would be seen as a sufficient source of other materials (uranium, rhenium, zirconium or gold (used for industrial purposes, as it'd be unlikely that an alien race would care about our monetary system)).

    ...and if these aliens are advanced enough to be able to travel wherever they want within short periods, they'd probably have advanced technology enough to use energy to directly create any material they need anyway, by using a star or their own crazy energy creating devices.
  • LofungLofung Join Date: 2004-08-21 Member: 30757Members
    edited March 2007
    <!--quoteo(post=1611574:date=Mar 6 2007, 05:54 AM:name=DiscoZombie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DiscoZombie @ Mar 6 2007, 05:54 AM) [snapback]1611574[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    If there's aliens out there, somehow I doubt they'd come all this way to keel us - and if they wanted to, they probably could. There's probably more resources for them to harvest on closer, uninhabited planets...
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    rumors has it that theres a UFO highway right 80 km above earth and they may want to make earth a place for highway robbers' hideout. another rumor has it that the moon is hollow and something is in it...

    hmm... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
  • locallyunscenelocallyunscene Feeder of Trolls Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->rumors has it <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Rumors? on the internets!?
  • LofungLofung Join Date: 2004-08-21 Member: 30757Members
    edited March 2007
    <!--quoteo(post=1611706:date=Mar 6 2007, 01:10 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Mar 6 2007, 01:10 PM) [snapback]1611706[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    Rumors? on the internets!?
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    i read and heard that from people who are so called "professionals" of ufos.. perhaps i should drop the s in rumors to make that seem like less popular
  • lolfighterlolfighter Snark, Dire Join Date: 2003-04-20 Member: 15693Members
    There are those who would derogatively sneer that "UFO professionals" are comparably to "astrology professionals." Not that I'd know anything of such people.
  • CrotalusCrotalus Join Date: 2003-12-02 Member: 23871Members
    You guys keeping making the assumption that alien people are just like a mid 20's reasonable white male or something. Either, that or some sort of emotionless robot guys. You can't predict the psychology of alien life because the fact is that our definition of life is based only upon Earth. But of course, our definition of life is really the kind we find the most desirable so I guess it would make sense to look for life similar to ones developed on Earth.

    I honestly doubt the human race will ever see aliens. Even with the benefit of "warp speed" or something, I feel that it is nearly impossible to find that kind of sentient crap floating around the voids of space. To have a high chance of running into aliens, they would need to be able to travel space and possess inquisitive curiousity. looking at the sort of life that have developed on Earth, this seems rather unlikely. I think it would be more the case that we will find planets with relatively simple life.
  • ThaldarinThaldarin Alonzi&#33; Join Date: 2003-07-15 Member: 18173Members, Constellation
    I'd say bacteria from other worlds is aliens wouldn't you? We can or have collected bacteria samples (which one it is I don't know) so technically humans will have a high chance of coming in contact with aliens from other worlds.
  • locallyunscenelocallyunscene Feeder of Trolls Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> You guys keeping making the assumption that alien people are just like a mid 20's reasonable white male or something.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I don't really see this(with the exception of the "frat alien" post). A reasonable 20's white male wouldn't travel to enslave another planet even if it was easy, unless he was a soldier in an alien army that needed resources/slaves/sacrafices. By and large we aretalking about societies and their possible reasons for coming to Earth.

    I agree we may be making a fallacy by assuming intelligent alien life will be similar to us, but what else do we really have to go on?
  • X_StickmanX_Stickman Not good enough for a custom title. Join Date: 2003-04-15 Member: 15533Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1611961:date=Mar 7 2007, 02:11 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Mar 7 2007, 02:11 AM) [snapback]1611961[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    I don't really see this(with the exception of the "frat alien" post). A reasonable 20's white male wouldn't travel to enslave another planet even if it was easy, unless he was a soldier in an alien army that needed resources/slaves/sacrafices. By and large we aretalking about societies and their possible reasons for coming to Earth.

    I agree we may be making a fallacy by assuming intelligent alien life will be similar to us, but what else do we really have to go on?
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    There is a theory, how widespread of accepted I don't know I just remember reading it somewhere, that since the requirements for life are *so* specific, much of life throughout the universe would essentially be the same.

    But, hey, that probably isn't true. Just throwing it out there.
  • RobRob Unknown Enemy Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 25Members, NS1 Playtester
    <!--quoteo(post=1611967:date=Mar 6 2007, 09:32 PM:name=X_Stickman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(X_Stickman @ Mar 6 2007, 09:32 PM) [snapback]1611967[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    There is a theory, how widespread of accepted I don't know I just remember reading it somewhere, that since the requirements for life are *so* specific, much of life throughout the universe would essentially be the same.

    But, hey, that probably isn't true. Just throwing it out there.
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    Another assumption we always make is that water can be the only universal solvent capable of producing the single celled organisms from which life evolves. For that matter, we assume that life can only evolve FROM single celled organisms.

    This is all fine and good if you're trying to <i>find</i> life. The probability of success is much greater if you look in places that you know for a fact can support life. We know water can produce life, so we look in places with water.

    From a defensive or preparation for contact point of view, though, this assumption is dangerous. It is impossible to know the motivations, technologies, or biological nature of an intelligence that makes contact with us because we have no frame of reference. For all we know one of the first few radio transmissions sounded to them like a prophet or deity and they've come on a pilgrimage to meet "God."
  • LofungLofung Join Date: 2004-08-21 Member: 30757Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1611967:date=Mar 7 2007, 10:32 AM:name=X_Stickman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(X_Stickman @ Mar 7 2007, 10:32 AM) [snapback]1611967[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    There is a theory, how widespread of accepted I don't know I just remember reading it somewhere, that since the requirements for life are *so* specific, much of life throughout the universe would essentially be the same.

    But, hey, that probably isn't true. Just throwing it out there.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    what do u mean by, "the same"?

    Do u mean that life is only a series of chemical reaction hence they are the same? what kind of special requirements are needed for life? plants breathe for carbon dioxide and we breathe for oxygen and probably some aliens out there gonna say "oxygen stinks, hydrogen ftw. how could u idiots breathe in that poisonous gas?" that made a difference already
  • a_civiliana_civilian Likes seeing numbers Join Date: 2003-01-08 Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
    <!--quoteo(post=1611585:date=Mar 5 2007, 05:30 PM:name=UltimaGecko)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(UltimaGecko @ Mar 5 2007, 05:30 PM) [snapback]1611585[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    I'd like to take a minor extrapolation here, and discuss why aliens would most likely (if hostile) be incapable of destroying our planet: humans haven't developed 'more powerful' super weapons in 30 years, which leads me to believe that there is likely some threshold to how strong you could make some weapon. I really (as much as we all can hope) doubt that the universe will ever, ever, ever see anything like a Death Star or a planet buster or giant lasers that destroy cities in one shot. From a logistical standpoint it's very unlikely that aliens are going to fly billions upon billions of kilometers carrying thousands of super-nukes to just blow up our planet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    About the failure to develop more powerful superweapons, consider that humans have no need for more powerful weapons. Nuclear fusion is already excessive for intraplanetary warfare; there is simply no point in developing anything further.

    The energy released by nuclear fusion results from minute differences in nuclear binding energies. For instance, the <i>hydrogen-3 + hydrogen-2 -> helium-4 + neutron</i> fusion reaction releases only about 1/274 of the total potential energy (rest mass) of the reactants. More efficient reactions certainly exist; for example, a matter-antimatter reaction releases all of the potential energy of the reactants.

    Though come to think of it, a 300-fold increase isn't much, and that would the absolute maximum in self-contained energy storage; anything better would have to make use of ambient energy. But this ignores any possible increases in efficiency on the engineering side (which basically amounts to what proportion of the reactants you can get to react) as I have no real idea how well that could be improved.
  • LofungLofung Join Date: 2004-08-21 Member: 30757Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1612109:date=Mar 7 2007, 04:44 PM:name=a_civilian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(a_civilian @ Mar 7 2007, 04:44 PM) [snapback]1612109[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    About the failure to develop more powerful superweapons, consider that humans have no need for more powerful weapons. Nuclear fusion is already excessive for intraplanetary warfare; there is simply no point in developing anything further.
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    humans always have the desire to be superior over another. humans used to fight with bare hands. but later somebody invented a club which looks scary. it is natural for humans to improve themselves to make themselves more scary, like how a cat defend. they gonna invent something more scary than a club and hence others would not dare you. thats why humans no long fight with clubs but red buttons. consider also humans want to move asteroids out of their orbits to prevent an impact of asteroids on earth. more powerful superweapons will be a solution, so do defending out planet against unknown aliens, though that looked BS comparing the technological difference between humans and space-traveling aliens. although there seems to be no point developing any further, it actually will.
  • GreyFlcnGreyFlcn Join Date: 2006-12-19 Member: 59134Members, Constellation
    OH NOES!

    <img src="http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/1276/sh53so2.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
  • X_StickmanX_Stickman Not good enough for a custom title. Join Date: 2003-04-15 Member: 15533Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1612043:date=Mar 7 2007, 05:55 AM:name=Lofung)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lofung @ Mar 7 2007, 05:55 AM) [snapback]1612043[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    what do u mean by, "the same"?

    Do u mean that life is only a series of chemical reaction hence they are the same? what kind of special requirements are needed for life? plants breathe for carbon dioxide and we breathe for oxygen and probably some aliens out there gonna say "oxygen stinks, hydrogen ftw. how could u idiots breathe in that poisonous gas?" that made a difference already
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    The idea behind it is that since the people who thought it up believe that life needs such specific requirements (i.e. the ones we have now), that the only way life could evolve not on earth, would be on a planet identical to earth in every way (distance from sun, gravity strength, composition of atmosphere etc...)

    If that is true, then they say the basics of life would evolve in roughly the same manner. The only differences would be cultural (since the stars would appear different and so on).

    But hey like I said, I'm just playing devils advocate with this one. It's something I read ages and ages ago, and I can't remember it all that well.
  • UltimaGeckoUltimaGecko hates endnotes Join Date: 2003-05-14 Member: 16320Members
    Well, I'd think water would be pretty important (it's chemical properties compared to anything else humanity has ever encountered, plus it makes up a majority of our being). However, while Earth has carbon-based lifeforms, the only (I suppose make that 'presumably the only') other useful element to use as a base of life is silicon, because it's the only other element that can make large molecules (for instance, for DNA). So the most plausible theory I've heard of is that alien life would (if not like ours) be sort more 'mechanical' with a silicon-based lifeform.


    As for the subject of nuclear weapons, that's what I was kind of saying; we haven't developed more efficient weapons (at killing/destroying things) in 30 years, and it's likely we've discovered one of the most powerful weapons humanity may ever see. The only think comparable would probably be an anti-matter reaction, and I suppose that's all aliens could really have to destroy us (barring the discovery of some new über weapon or a perfectly functioning <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_bomb" target="_blank">Neutron bomb</a>, with which they could just annihalate life and steal whatever may happen to be useful. I just don't foresee any major strategic weapons breakthroughs coming (at least for a long while).

    An interstellar war may actually be the only means of provoking humanity to attempt to develop anything more destructive. And while Lofung's 'evolution of warfare' post is partly relevant, nuclear weapons are the only weapons to ever be effectively banned from use by those who could use them (...there's always the crossbow, longbow and gunpowder-based projectiles back in the middle ages, but we all know how well that held up). I mean, a weapon considered so terrible that it has self-imposed restrictions on use? Do we (or would any alien race) really want to try to 'improve' on that? Heck, scientists that first tested it theorized that it might blow up the universe (...however that would work).

    Also, Lofung, could you please, please, please try to spell out words and form more comprehensible sentences?



    I know there's an inherent 'danger' in believing that alien life will think like humans do, but seeing as we're the only example of sentient life on our planet, there's really not much else to go off of, besides human history. During history you occasionally have views of unchecked human aggression (just a basic drive to expand), but interstellar politics would likely be vastly different. Even if some powerful alien race steams through our solar system, they'd still likely maintain our planet's current state (and if we've expanded to Mars or the moon or something, then they might throw us back on Earth like some kind of 'human reservation'. The only real reason for the aliens to start a war out of basic aggression is if they could see no real threat through attack (easy-pickings, as it were), but as I've tried to 'proove' it's unlikely that any alien power would be able to harness a defense against nuclear weaponry (but if it is possible, and they have, then maybe they'd start a war).

    I suppose either way, it's a 50-50 shot if they want to blow us up <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> .
  • X_StickmanX_Stickman Not good enough for a custom title. Join Date: 2003-04-15 Member: 15533Members, Constellation
    edited March 2007
    I always sorta figured that the reason we haven't made a more powerful weapon in the last 30 years is because we've never really needed to. Our current most powerful weapons do a fine job of wiping out many, many people and buildings at once, so we don't need to make anything different. Add in the prospect of advanced space conflict, and who knows? Advanced point defence systems, totally different cultures (that live completely underground, for example), atmosphere conditions that'd destroy any weapon before it hit the ground etc etc... who knows what we (or an alien race facing the same) would come up with to overcome those problems?

    Also, we haven't really had a war big enough to make weapons manufacturing/development the main goal of a nation (or at least, the goal of a nation with the ability to produce anything more advanced than tanks or something). War, while sucky, advances pretty much all forms of technology at a rate incomparible to peacetime. Then again, like I said earlier, we don't really need to now. Enough nukes (or whatever you wanna call 'em) will pretty much remove an entire country from the earth.

    Also since this suddenly sprang to mind, in relation to possible alien attacks, bio-warfare? We'd be screwed. Like the plot behind that poorly received Babylon 5 spinoff, Crusade <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
    Hell, even something like Tiberium (is it tiberium or tiberian? 'Cos Tiberian is the name of the games but I'm sure it's called Tiberium in the game itself.) would screw us over pretty good.
  • GreyFlcnGreyFlcn Join Date: 2006-12-19 Member: 59134Members, Constellation
    Well, much of the developments in weapons tech haven't been "Weapons of mass destruction"
    However there have been a lot of developments in weapons which are more accurate.

    Why carpet bomb when you can use cruise missiles <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
  • CrotalusCrotalus Join Date: 2003-12-02 Member: 23871Members
    edited March 2007
    If haven't read this short story read it now. It will only take two minutes and it's really interesting:
    <a href="http://www.terrybisson.com/meat.html" target="_blank">They're made out of meat</a>

    <b>This is what I'm feeling:</b> Humans WANT to discover life that is the most similar in mental function to us. Humans want to find life that can talk, feel, rationalize, fear, enjoy, etc... Therefore, searching for life that is the most similar to us in thought processes would be good. For example, I'm pretty sure that eveyone would be more excited if we found a human-like race rather than a planet of dumb animals or something.

    <b>Here's another point:</b> What is the reason that humans have become such a dominant species? One theory suggests that it's because human beings are the most pyschotic mother****ers on the planet. They will kill anyone and anything for more territory and resources, or absolutely no reason. Is there ANY other species on our planet that acts like this? Almost all animals have a built in fail-safe to practice self control to prevent running resources dry. We seem to be the only animals that continuously practice over comsumption. It might also prove to be the reason why there are hundreds of different of versions of species, but there is only ONE type of human.

    That means, if we did discover life similar to humanity, it could very carry the same traits that humanity has in that it has a inherent tendency to dominate those around it. Anyone else have anything to say about this?

    EDIT: UltimaGecko, the Aliens in the Aliens quadrilogy are silicon based lifeforms. There is also the possibilty that space faring aliens view Earth as an animal species. Maybe it would be like a human walking past an anthill. We are simply to primitive to consider contact with.
  • locallyunscenelocallyunscene Feeder of Trolls Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Almost all animals have a built in fail-safe to practice self control to prevent running resources dry. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    This is something I hear often on the subject and it is dead wrong. The self control animals possess is to die. A population shrinks when there's not enough resources to go around because the animals that can't find enough food/water/shelter to survive die plain and simple. Maybe humanity will come up against a wall on a global scale, or maybe we'll keep thinking of clever ways to expand our usable resources.

    Regardless, all organisms strive to get to their max population. The only reason it seems different with humans is because we have a lot of ways to keep ourselves alive by shifting resources. If/When we overuse our available resources there willl be a culling period like any other animal. We just hope we'll be smart enough to avoid it and/or the damage won't be too severe.
  • RenegadeRenegade Old school Join Date: 2002-03-29 Member: 361Members
    If an advanced star-faring race decided to attack and conquer us, I'm pretty sure there'd be nothing we could do to stop them, or probably even slow them down. Just a hunch.
  • DiscoZombieDiscoZombie Join Date: 2003-08-05 Member: 18951Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1612467:date=Mar 8 2007, 01:41 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Mar 8 2007, 01:41 AM) [snapback]1612467[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    This is something I hear often on the subject and it is dead wrong. The self control animals possess is to die. A population shrinks when there's not enough resources to go around because the animals that can't find enough food/water/shelter to survive die plain and simple. Maybe humanity will come up against a wall on a global scale, or maybe we'll keep thinking of clever ways to expand our usable resources.

    Regardless, all organisms strive to get to their max population. The only reason it seems different with humans is because we have a lot of ways to keep ourselves alive by shifting resources. If/When we overuse our available resources there willl be a culling period like any other animal. We just hope we'll be smart enough to avoid it and/or the damage won't be too severe.
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    /agree.

    Any population of living things will grow exponentially if the species' limiting factors are removed. If a species' predators are taken out of the picture, for example, or you give it access to a new food supply, it will grow at an out of control rate until it reaches a crashing point (like, there's finally so many of the species that they eat all the food). Then, almost all of them will usually die out...

    <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Malthus" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Malthus</a>
  • CrotalusCrotalus Join Date: 2003-12-02 Member: 23871Members
    Yeah sure, I see what you mean by that. If humans wern't clever enough to have invented agriculture, our numbers would be limited to like one million or something. This is the "self-control" I am talking about, I got the wrong concept though. Is it because of human's intelligence that we have been able to artifically raise our population decline point, when no other species has the ability to do so?
  • GreyFlcnGreyFlcn Join Date: 2006-12-19 Member: 59134Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1612774:date=Mar 9 2007, 02:21 AM:name=Crotalus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crotalus @ Mar 9 2007, 02:21 AM) [snapback]1612774[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    Yeah sure, I see what you mean by that. If humans wern't clever enough to have invented agriculture, our numbers would be limited to like one million or something. This is the "self-control" I am talking about, I got the wrong concept though. Is it because of human's intelligence that we have been able to artifically raise our population decline point, when no other species has the ability to do so?
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    Yeap

    Pretty much, animals have great tactics.
    But their strategy sucks <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
  • ThaldarinThaldarin Alonzi&#33; Join Date: 2003-07-15 Member: 18173Members, Constellation
    I still think Pandas are an alien species who pretend to be dumb and only eat bamboo in such a way to attract positive attention just to observe us.
  • LokeTheSleekPeruvianLokeTheSleekPeruvian Join Date: 2003-08-21 Member: 20054Members
    edited March 2007
    <!--quoteo(post=1612476:date=Mar 8 2007, 02:06 AM:name=Renegade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Renegade @ Mar 8 2007, 02:06 AM) [snapback]1612476[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    If an advanced star-faring race decided to attack and conquer us, I'm pretty sure there'd be nothing we could do to stop them, or probably even slow them down. Just a hunch.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I can see it already . We would probably get that newspaper frontpage that goes "EARTH SURRENDERS" or "7 hour war ends in (alien) victory" like the one you find in that scientist's lab in HL2.


    On the other hand, I'd love to see space contact from another planet ALSO populated by humans (It'd be kinda cool face it <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />)
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