<!--quoteo(post=1608954:date=Feb 24 2007, 03:23 AM:name=Porcepic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Porcepic @ Feb 24 2007, 03:23 AM) [snapback]1608954[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Just train as comm against Bots first, then against 5-6 humans, then against 8, etc...
Anyway, a comm without a good team listening to his orders is nothing, and a good team needn't any comm <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> Except to build a deloc' at main hive <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh… there are people who can obliterate their own team when they com. I haven’t played NS in over a couple years online, but when I did….
NS and CO are both good. And as it’s been posted, cater to different people. But, when push comes to shove, NS mode’s biggest strengths are it’s biggest weaknesses while CO, being more like NS-lite, has fewer things going on… fewer things that can go horribly wrong.
In CO, you’re probably going to see more new maps come out. Let’s face it. It’s quite a bit harder to make a NS map versus a CO map, developer dictated restrictions being a big factor followed by commander r_speed issues. You also *shouldn’t have to worry about any siege CO maps. =P
In Co, you also don’t have to worry about the com doing moronic things like. · Med & ammo pack spamming all your res points away within the first 5 mins of a game while your team has only one or two res towers. · Refusing to build ANYTHING because the Kharaa team has one more player… · Forgetting to build an IP so that marines who die and late joiners can spawn. · Spending all the res points on turret farming while the Kharaa are upgrading and eventually push everyone back into the marine spawn room with… only one resnode remaining, if they’re lucky. · Refuse to use a mic or don’t have sound. · Going AFK without giving any warning or even leaving the com chair. · Only listen to the tactical advice of the dumbest player on the team. · Recycle EVERYTHING because the team suffers a setback · Commanders whom were just 10 seconds ago a disgruntled regular player who recycle EVERYTHING because they just feel like it. · Relocate to the most impossible to defend locations in a map · Become fixated on a given location or task in the map while everything else goes out the window.
I could go on, but I hope the above is enough to make the point.
CO isn’t as revolutionary as NS IMHO, it can become boring, it isn’t without it’s own faults, but it’s still fun for people out there. Sure, sooner or later you’ll get skulk rushed (if they still do that), or grenaded into oblivion by a marine with a jetpack and resupply, but you can still have a good time even if all the other people on your team couldn’t reach 85 with their collective IQ’s. Even better, you don’t have to worry about getting pummeled over and over and over and over because no one wants to or can command worth a darn (or on the flipside, if no one wants to spend those res points on Kharaa structures that do become essential to winning eventually).
Below is my perspective on things as to why they happened. I don't think any of this is dogma and must be accepted, but its my two cents on the matter <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> Btw, OP: very well-written.
Within a few weeks of Combat's release, I and many of my NS comrades decided that we liked Combat best as an intermediary between NS pubs/matches.
For quite some time, this is how NS servers functioned. NS for a few maps, then CO for a 10-15 minute break in between to vent any lingering frustrations or to celebrate victory.
As soon as the 24/7 Combat servers came out, the community shifted away towards these hybrid servers. Since then, the NS community has been spread thin on server options.
Pure NS. Pure CO. NS/CO Hybrid. CO with mods. Siege maps.
I've since concluded that the reason NS has a slowly dwindling community, yet still hangs on - is the fact that right now, NS is charmingly schizophrenic. It has everything that you may be looking for in a FPS provided you find the right server.
Hence, the community splitting, and hence, the simultaneous dwindling and rekindling of NS at every new release.
But yeah, thats what I think at least <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> /ramble.
however I dont think people mind learning how to play classic but when given the option of learning or not learning everyone will pick the easy no learning 9 times out of 10.
This said when learning was the only option (i.e before CO) everyone had to do it and there was a sense of acheivement and pride in your abilities that you had to work to acheive.
For me it wasnt CO that killed this sense of acheivement but rather the decision by the DEV's to reduce the games length (from an average game time of 45 mins to 15 minutes in an early release i cant remmeber which one). This effectivley reduced the once epic NS (that although its sad to say gave me a sense of acheivement when i played and won) into the drab and boring twitch shooter that we all see today. As a forum moderator once put it, Chess became checkers, and checkers became tic tac toe.
Shoulda focused on the hardcore gamers as there the ones that keep the game alive and not sold out and turned NS into yet another lollipop for 8yr old nublets.
<!--quoteo(post=1606310:date=Feb 13 2007, 11:26 PM:name=Harrower)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harrower @ Feb 13 2007, 11:26 PM) [snapback]1606310[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> You made a great article but you ignored fleshing out the most important point.
NS has objectives, strategy, <i>interesting</i> gameplay in it. Combat has jetpacks that throw themselves at a hive over and over so they can... throw themselves at the hive over and over next game.
There's no variety, there's no subtlety besides aiming and fading. Those are great minigames but the whole should be greater than the sum of its parts. That's what makes for a truly dynamic experience.
If I wanted to throw myself at a target in a linear game, I'd go play counterstrike. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I agree, except I'd play TFC or HL2 Deathmatch instead of CS. NS, TFC, and DoD:S (if I can find a good server and not one with damn space fillers) are my favorite Steam based mods.
What I like a lot about Combat is the ability to get multiple upgrades as alien and the no worrying your team's resources. It a good break in between many NS game back to back. I love to uberlerk or be a skulk missle in Combat.
What I hate about combat it the monotony of marines always winning with nade spam and spawn camping in late game. You spawn and die instantly half of the time. The aimbot cheaters with jetpacks and UA is another big problem, but that's server administations' responsibility. Also several combat maps have poor entropy or crappy design with long, open, well lit hallways with no lighting variation. But most of all, it is that extra levels are wanted but the servers who have a plugin for it (known commonly as xmenu) DO NOT have it balanced. In general admins of combat server SUCK at balancing a game altering plugin. Sorry, but you most of you do.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've since concluded that the reason NS has a slowly dwindling community, yet still hangs on - is the fact that right now, NS is charmingly schizophrenic. It has everything that you may be looking for in a FPS provided you find the right server.Hence, the community splitting, and hence, the simultaneous dwindling and rekindling of NS at every new release. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->A very astute observation indeed! Yes, I agree. But how do you unite the community? I think new custom content like maps have a role in this. But what else?
<!--quoteo(post=1606316:date=Feb 14 2007, 03:37 AM:name=Harrower)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harrower @ Feb 14 2007, 03:37 AM) [snapback]1606316[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Buildmenu gets a really bad name but if you stop to think about it, it just makes the game more like NS. If anything, it's a bridge between combat and the real game.
EDIT: This was not a double-post when it was first added. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
buildmenu is the only reason why combat is bearable to play and tbh should be standard in combat.
<!--quoteo(post=1615939:date=Mar 20 2007, 09:22 PM:name=commofdoom)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(commofdoom @ Mar 20 2007, 09:22 PM) [snapback]1615939[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> buildmenu is the only reason why combat is bearable to play and tbh should be standard in combat. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why bother to have people learn how to skulk/lerk/fade/aim when they can just drop OCs/turrets, right?
Combat was originally intended as a filler gametype to help populate servers, which was desperately needed in the 1.0 days. Sitting around playing 2v2 praying that more people join so you won't be wasting your time really blows. Combat is at least playable under those circumstances. Even if resflow were fixed for small games, the basic gameplay of Classic would still completely fail to function until at least 3v3 or 4v4.
The "problem" everybody loves to talk about is that people who aren't interested in Classic instead spend their time in Combat. How people make the logical leap from this to "CO is killing NS" is completely beyond me. You guys realize that people play on Combat servers because they're more interested in an action-packed killfest than a team strategy game, right? And if Combat weren't here they'd just go play some other game? Combat has never had an adverse effect on Classic, no matter how crazy the plugins get. If anything it helps filter out the players that don't belong in Classic games.
<!--quoteo(post=1617595:date=Mar 28 2007, 07:46 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Zek @ Mar 28 2007, 07:46 PM) [snapback]1617595[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> The "problem" everybody loves to talk about is that people who aren't interested in Classic instead spend their time in Combat. How people make the logical leap from this to "CO is killing NS" is completely beyond me. You guys realize that people play on Combat servers because they're more interested in an action-packed killfest than a team strategy game, right? And if Combat weren't here they'd just go play some other game? Combat has never had an adverse effect on Classic, no matter how crazy the plugins get. If anything it helps filter out the players that don't belong in Classic games. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not always. This is actually a little shameful to admit, but I played combat almost exclusively when it came out, simply because it was instant gratification. Less reliance on competent teammates to win a game was certainly a big factor. I turned from somebody who played NS exclusively (More or less because I didn't have a choice in the matter) to a combat junkie, and now I play both. Not all the players who play combat are potential players for classic, but there is a good portion of them who would probably be playing NS if combat didn't exist. But because combat exists, they'll choose to play that over classic.
It's my understanding that combat was at least partially intended as a sort of a "trainer" for classic, but to be honest, it fulfills that role terribly. I'll admit that combat did wonders to improve my tactical skills, but beyond that, it was an disadvantage when trying to play NS. I was getting LMGed as fade because I was too used to carapace and running out of energy constantly as lerk because I didn't have adrenaline. Worse of all, the only strategic advice combat imparted me with was "SHOOT THE HIVE". It's no wonder I often see somebody go fade, get gunned down by two competent LMGers, go "WTH", then rage quit and go back to playing combat instead of continuing to play classic.
<!--quoteo(post=1617619:date=Mar 29 2007, 12:25 AM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Underwhelmed @ Mar 29 2007, 12:25 AM) [snapback]1617619[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not always. This is actually a little shameful to admit, but I played combat almost exclusively when it came out, simply because it was instant gratification. Less reliance on competent teammates to win a game was certainly a big factor. I turned from somebody who played NS exclusively (More or less because I didn't have a choice in the matter) to a combat junkie, and now I play both. Not all the players who play combat are potential players for classic, but there is a good portion of them who would probably be playing NS if combat didn't exist. But because combat exists, they'll choose to play that over classic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Everybody played Combat a lot when it was released, because it was new. Players with an eye for the strategy gameplay went back to Classic eventually. Those without it stayed with Combat. Reliance on a competent team is just a fact of life with a game like NS. And it won't make anybody happy if players that hate working with their team are forced back into ns_ maps.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's my understanding that combat was at least partially intended as a sort of a "trainer" for classic, but to be honest, it fulfills that role terribly. I'll admit that combat did wonders to improve my tactical skills, but beyond that, it was an disadvantage when trying to play NS. I was getting LMGed as fade because I was too used to carapace and running out of energy constantly as lerk because I didn't have adrenaline. Worse of all, the only strategic advice combat imparted me with was "SHOOT THE HIVE". It's no wonder I often see somebody go fade, get gunned down by two competent LMGers, go "WTH", then rage quit and go back to playing combat instead of continuing to play classic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know what the devs were thinking at the time, but I sure never heard anything about the "training" functionality back when 2.0 was in development. Fixing small games was a major design goal back then and combat was the way it was accomplished. Besides, Combat does teach newbies the basics of how to shoot and how to play lifeforms. You can't expect any more out of it than that. If people really want to learn to play Classic they'll play ns_ maps. Who's going to benefit from changing Combat now?
Comments
But now, on 3.2, there is no xmenu and nearly no extralevels, and players just think combat "sucks".
Just train as comm against Bots first, then against 5-6 humans, then against 8, etc...
Anyway, a comm without a good team listening to his orders is nothing, and a good team needn't any comm <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> Except to build a deloc' at main hive <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh… there are people who can obliterate their own team when they com. I haven’t played NS in over a couple years online, but when I did….
NS and CO are both good. And as it’s been posted, cater to different people. But, when push comes to shove, NS mode’s biggest strengths are it’s biggest weaknesses while CO, being more like NS-lite, has fewer things going on… fewer things that can go horribly wrong.
In CO, you’re probably going to see more new maps come out. Let’s face it. It’s quite a bit harder to make a NS map versus a CO map, developer dictated restrictions being a big factor followed by commander r_speed issues. You also *shouldn’t have to worry about any siege CO maps. =P
In Co, you also don’t have to worry about the com doing moronic things like.
· Med & ammo pack spamming all your res points away within the first 5 mins of a game while your team has only one or two res towers.
· Refusing to build ANYTHING because the Kharaa team has one more player…
· Forgetting to build an IP so that marines who die and late joiners can spawn.
· Spending all the res points on turret farming while the Kharaa are upgrading and eventually push everyone back into the marine spawn room with… only one resnode remaining, if they’re lucky.
· Refuse to use a mic or don’t have sound.
· Going AFK without giving any warning or even leaving the com chair.
· Only listen to the tactical advice of the dumbest player on the team.
· Recycle EVERYTHING because the team suffers a setback
· Commanders whom were just 10 seconds ago a disgruntled regular player who recycle EVERYTHING because they just feel like it.
· Relocate to the most impossible to defend locations in a map
· Become fixated on a given location or task in the map while everything else goes out the window.
I could go on, but I hope the above is enough to make the point.
CO isn’t as revolutionary as NS IMHO, it can become boring, it isn’t without it’s own faults, but it’s still fun for people out there. Sure, sooner or later you’ll get skulk rushed (if they still do that), or grenaded into oblivion by a marine with a jetpack and resupply, but you can still have a good time even if all the other people on your team couldn’t reach 85 with their collective IQ’s. Even better, you don’t have to worry about getting pummeled over and over and over and over because no one wants to or can command worth a darn (or on the flipside, if no one wants to spend those res points on Kharaa structures that do become essential to winning eventually).
Within a few weeks of Combat's release, I and many of my NS comrades decided that we liked Combat best as an intermediary between NS pubs/matches.
For quite some time, this is how NS servers functioned. NS for a few maps, then CO for a 10-15 minute break in between to vent any lingering frustrations or to celebrate victory.
As soon as the 24/7 Combat servers came out, the community shifted away towards these hybrid servers. Since then, the NS community has been spread thin on server options.
Pure NS.
Pure CO.
NS/CO Hybrid.
CO with mods.
Siege maps.
I've since concluded that the reason NS has a slowly dwindling community, yet still hangs on - is the fact that right now, NS is charmingly schizophrenic. It has everything that you may be looking for in a FPS provided you find the right server.
Hence, the community splitting, and hence, the simultaneous dwindling and rekindling of NS at every new release.
But yeah, thats what I think at least <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> /ramble.
So I once did a suggestion to improve combat and make it usefull for its intented goal, teach players about classic.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?s=6942688342641575936&showtopic=89454&hl=" target="_blank">Read all about it here</a>
however I dont think people mind learning how to play classic but when given the option of learning or not learning everyone will pick the easy no learning 9 times out of 10.
This said when learning was the only option (i.e before CO) everyone had to do it and there was a sense of acheivement and pride in your abilities that you had to work to acheive.
For me it wasnt CO that killed this sense of acheivement but rather the decision by the DEV's to reduce the games length (from an average game time of 45 mins to 15 minutes in an early release i cant remmeber which one). This effectivley reduced the once epic NS (that although its sad to say gave me a sense of acheivement when i played and won) into the drab and boring twitch shooter that we all see today. As a forum moderator once put it, Chess became checkers, and checkers became tic tac toe.
Shoulda focused on the hardcore gamers as there the ones that keep the game alive and not sold out and turned NS into yet another lollipop for 8yr old nublets.
NS has objectives, strategy, <i>interesting</i> gameplay in it. Combat has jetpacks that throw themselves at a hive over and over so they can... throw themselves at the hive over and over next game.
There's no variety, there's no subtlety besides aiming and fading. Those are great minigames but the whole should be greater than the sum of its parts. That's what makes for a truly dynamic experience.
If I wanted to throw myself at a target in a linear game, I'd go play counterstrike. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I agree, except I'd play TFC or HL2 Deathmatch instead of CS. NS, TFC, and DoD:S (if I can find a good server and not one with damn space fillers) are my favorite Steam based mods.
What I like a lot about Combat is the ability to get multiple upgrades as alien and the no worrying your team's resources. It a good break in between many NS game back to back. I love to uberlerk or be a skulk missle in Combat.
What I hate about combat it the monotony of marines always winning with nade spam and spawn camping in late game. You spawn and die instantly half of the time. The aimbot cheaters with jetpacks and UA is another big problem, but that's server administations' responsibility. Also several combat maps have poor entropy or crappy design with long, open, well lit hallways with no lighting variation. But most of all, it is that extra levels are wanted but the servers who have a plugin for it (known commonly as xmenu) DO NOT have it balanced. In general admins of combat server SUCK at balancing a game altering plugin. Sorry, but you most of you do.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've since concluded that the reason NS has a slowly dwindling community, yet still hangs on - is the fact that right now, NS is charmingly schizophrenic. It has everything that you may be looking for in a FPS provided you find the right server.Hence, the community splitting, and hence, the simultaneous dwindling and rekindling of NS at every new release.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->A very astute observation indeed! Yes, I agree. But how do you unite the community? I think new custom content like maps have a role in this. But what else?
Buildmenu gets a really bad name but if you stop to think about it, it just makes the game more like NS. If anything, it's a bridge between combat and the real game.
EDIT: This was not a double-post when it was first added.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
buildmenu is the only reason why combat is bearable to play and tbh should be standard in combat.
buildmenu is the only reason why combat is bearable to play and tbh should be standard in combat.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why bother to have people learn how to skulk/lerk/fade/aim when they can just drop OCs/turrets, right?
The "problem" everybody loves to talk about is that people who aren't interested in Classic instead spend their time in Combat. How people make the logical leap from this to "CO is killing NS" is completely beyond me. You guys realize that people play on Combat servers because they're more interested in an action-packed killfest than a team strategy game, right? And if Combat weren't here they'd just go play some other game? Combat has never had an adverse effect on Classic, no matter how crazy the plugins get. If anything it helps filter out the players that don't belong in Classic games.
The "problem" everybody loves to talk about is that people who aren't interested in Classic instead spend their time in Combat. How people make the logical leap from this to "CO is killing NS" is completely beyond me. You guys realize that people play on Combat servers because they're more interested in an action-packed killfest than a team strategy game, right? And if Combat weren't here they'd just go play some other game? Combat has never had an adverse effect on Classic, no matter how crazy the plugins get. If anything it helps filter out the players that don't belong in Classic games.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not always. This is actually a little shameful to admit, but I played combat almost exclusively when it came out, simply because it was instant gratification. Less reliance on competent teammates to win a game was certainly a big factor. I turned from somebody who played NS exclusively (More or less because I didn't have a choice in the matter) to a combat junkie, and now I play both. Not all the players who play combat are potential players for classic, but there is a good portion of them who would probably be playing NS if combat didn't exist. But because combat exists, they'll choose to play that over classic.
It's my understanding that combat was at least partially intended as a sort of a "trainer" for classic, but to be honest, it fulfills that role terribly. I'll admit that combat did wonders to improve my tactical skills, but beyond that, it was an disadvantage when trying to play NS. I was getting LMGed as fade because I was too used to carapace and running out of energy constantly as lerk because I didn't have adrenaline. Worse of all, the only strategic advice combat imparted me with was "SHOOT THE HIVE". It's no wonder I often see somebody go fade, get gunned down by two competent LMGers, go "WTH", then rage quit and go back to playing combat instead of continuing to play classic.
Everybody played Combat a lot when it was released, because it was new. Players with an eye for the strategy gameplay went back to Classic eventually. Those without it stayed with Combat. Reliance on a competent team is just a fact of life with a game like NS. And it won't make anybody happy if players that hate working with their team are forced back into ns_ maps.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's my understanding that combat was at least partially intended as a sort of a "trainer" for classic, but to be honest, it fulfills that role terribly. I'll admit that combat did wonders to improve my tactical skills, but beyond that, it was an disadvantage when trying to play NS. I was getting LMGed as fade because I was too used to carapace and running out of energy constantly as lerk because I didn't have adrenaline. Worse of all, the only strategic advice combat imparted me with was "SHOOT THE HIVE". It's no wonder I often see somebody go fade, get gunned down by two competent LMGers, go "WTH", then rage quit and go back to playing combat instead of continuing to play classic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know what the devs were thinking at the time, but I sure never heard anything about the "training" functionality back when 2.0 was in development. Fixing small games was a major design goal back then and combat was the way it was accomplished. Besides, Combat does teach newbies the basics of how to shoot and how to play lifeforms. You can't expect any more out of it than that. If people really want to learn to play Classic they'll play ns_ maps. Who's going to benefit from changing Combat now?