3.2 Beta2 Balance Feedback
puzl
The Old Firm Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
The Old Firm Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Your chance to give your insights and opinions</div>The time has come for us to put the finishing touches on 3.2 and release it to the public. We have our own ideas of what needs to change before public release but we want to give you a chance to have your say first.
This is not a debate topic. We do welcome debate on all aspects of NS but in the interests of keeping this topic focused we hope you can refrain from the urge to debate every point you disagree with. If you really feel the need to challenge a point then feel free to start a new topic on it.
For this topic, we would like to see you all post your objective assessment of 3.2 Beta2 balance. In particular, mention any observations you have on the changes to RT health and the reintroduction of the hive three armour bonus.
We want feedback from all aspects of the community - competitive, public and combat. If you are giving feedback on only one of the above it will help if you state that clearly.
This is not a debate topic. We do welcome debate on all aspects of NS but in the interests of keeping this topic focused we hope you can refrain from the urge to debate every point you disagree with. If you really feel the need to challenge a point then feel free to start a new topic on it.
For this topic, we would like to see you all post your objective assessment of 3.2 Beta2 balance. In particular, mention any observations you have on the changes to RT health and the reintroduction of the hive three armour bonus.
We want feedback from all aspects of the community - competitive, public and combat. If you are giving feedback on only one of the above it will help if you state that clearly.
Comments
Lerking is boring in 3.2, but I guess it had to be done. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
-Marine rt health really encourages aliens to munch res, but after I commed a few times, I can say its really hard maintaining rts, as long as theres one skulk eating my rts, Ill lose them faster then I recap.
Eating res is a boring job, but it is very important, and when you reduce the time you need to be bored, more ppl do it, I think ppl should do it without the fact it takes less time... so getting the old marine rt health back would be nice.
-I'd say the game is quite balanced, but when aliens get the third hive, it just impossible to win against a decent alien team. I guess when aliens do get that third hive up, it means marines lost a long time ago and the third hive is built just to end it quicker, but lets say you are not losing, you have enough rts, and you got a full team of HA, I still think the third hive gives u a bit too much power.
In other words, the defense bonus is good, it gives alien a fair chance, and I dont think it should be removed, without it Im pretty sure they wont have a chance vs a full team of HA, BUT maybe negating a certain % of armor while charging/xeno/web could help.
-more over, the heat of the game is about taking down the second hive before it goes up, I never saw a hive go down after there were two up without it being sneak phase rushed or sieged from before it was up. (which kinda connects to what I said before, the third hive is there just to end it faster, I used to think it was to help aliens against full teched marines, but they kinda overwelm the marines...)
-the lerking is fine by me, still is fun, though now you need to be extra careful.
-fading is much easier now with + movement.
-onos health seems right, you now have a bit more chance against one jp +hmg.
I must add that this is the funnest and in my opinion most balanced version.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All I have to say, is Silent Lerks. Ultimate ninja. With the base speed boost, they're feasible now, and oh, so, SO much fun.
Though I would still really like to see beacon adjusted so that you can hear the warning siren in marine start when done from a proxy obs, but maybe thats just me silently beaconing in on people rushing your base always seemed a little cruel to me.
That is all.
oh and increasing onos health to recover from taking away hive armor, is cheap.
why not give every skulk an equal amont of energy of the rt, that might solve the issue? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Their has been a few good changes to the aliens. (these are my personal opinions so I name those I liked.)
1. hive acts like movement now, gorgs able to use it by pushing E or spitting at it.
2. +movement, made noob friendly fading, leaping and onoing? (charge) their was some debate if primal scream to be added to lerk as +Movement, since it does increase aliens movements.
3. cloaking, no more debate "how you saw me" now you know how much % your being cloaked.
Well, since I'm on a server now and taking the time to read the forums....I will add others later.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you play on MarineBot servers or something?!
The marine rts seem good, it was always easier for the marines to get an rt up, aliens need the gorge at the location, so I think this nerf really fits well. Marines need to keep the aliens moving around the map, keep'em guessing. If you lose a node up in power sub, go rebuild it. Don't leave it empty because it died and it might get bitten again.
And comm keyboard scrolling! Hallelujah! Again, this needs to be bound by default (honestly, who uses the arrow keys to aim anyway? It's only good for rotating in a spot while doing a ballet in the readyroom... swan lake perhaps?) It just makes moving around smoother for me when I've got time to drop a thing or two. Errr this isn't balance though is it? Moving on...
The onos health boost feels just right, borderline strong. I mean, this is a great big walking tank. It's easy to hit. He can break a base now but is still more killable than the 1.0x Onos with a three inch hitbox. Right now it still has the most annoying attacks, the kind that disable you. I'd like to see stomp's range shortened by 5 feet or something. Not too much, but I could swear that stomp reaches from outside ms on eclipse to damn near the back wall. I think that would be fair trade for his thicker skin. Gets him out of the support role, more into the offensive role.
End game feels better too for aliens. Stronger onos + 3 hive armour = broken turtles. Marines really have to kick it up a notch if they want to come back from three hives, but I think it'll make those comebacks that much more awesome, like in days of yore.
I feel this is the most balanced version yet nonetheless. The battles are good and I'm enjoying it all.
After having used the new blink for a while im alot more positive about it but it still feels like im forced to use +movement and it has effectively destroyed my ability to fastly switch weapons making it impossible for me to fade in 3.1 nowdays <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
-the flashing red RTs are very distracting when playing
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
perhaps the idea is that you run there and stop it from flashing
The time has come for us to put the finishing touches on 3.2 and release it to the public.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
when is the expected date for the final release?
Well the idea is badly executed, the comm can just say what rt is under attack. the mini map should be used to track aliens, track teammates, and locate structures, not have to deal with 7 flashing things that aren't necessary at all and just over complicate progress. A console command to turn it off would at least be good.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's the dumbest thing I ever heard. It's way more effective if the marines can see what rts need defending without the comm telling them so. It's even more important now that the rt's health has been lowered.
-the flashing red RTs are very distracting when playing
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->o_O<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
true @ tmk & Coris.....
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/hive5.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::hive::" border="0" alt="hive5.gif" /> Oh yeah and now to the 3rd hive hivearmour. I think it is really great that the hivearmour was removed. But when it comes to the 3rd hive hivearmour, I dont really care since most competetive matches are over when then 3rd hive goes up anyway.
Keep up the good work! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
1. marine rt-health back to 3.1
- The RTs are killed very fast now and it almost takes longer to build them than to kill them.
Especially against 2 hives it is very difficult to keep the rts up because you are forced to pressure the alien-rts generally against 2 fades, 1 or 2 skulks and a lerk and therefore you need to have teched up pretty well or you need ha because otherwise you need your whole team to pressure and then 1 or 2 skulks are just eating the rts (very quickly) and your success (if theres one) is gone already because you dont get res anymore.
The "Save for HA"-strategy doesnt work out against decent teams as well since you lose your rts way to fast and you need jp to cover them or a lot of phasegates (or 2-3 in really good positions) to keep the rts.
So i think that giving back the original RT-hp is the way to go.
However, less rt-hp on public (especially on big servers) encourages (as already said) to kill rts and balances the game then really well because the team isnt that organized on public servers and theres hardly someone who just kills rts all the time.
2. Hive-armor bonus/malus is great
- That there is no armor bonus for 2 hives forces the aliens to kill rts so that the marines wont get to many weapon upgrades. So if the mRT-healt (s.above) would be raised again it starts to be a more intensive res-fight with the marines still able to pressure on alien structures because their rts "live" longer.
DC Change(and why it should be changed back)
The new dc's can't really save a hive like they could in 3.2beta 1, where you would be locked in a epic struggle for hte hive, as 5 dc's and a gorge were healing and the 3 or 4 <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/siege.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::siege::" border="0" alt="siege.gif" /> were pinking away at the <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/hive5.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::hive::" border="0" alt="hive5.gif" />. It was alot of fun in those big struggles and I think that is what NS is about, that team work where you get everyone together for a giant fight. With dc's also not being able to heal more then one target it makes it diffucult for gorges on the front line to fight off baddies and keep those OC's alive, and it makes it hard to keep all the aliens healed up(with the exception of ONOS). .
I think that we should change them by having the First dc heal 3%(and the 10 health) and each one after it heals 1% and 10 health additional, so 1 chamber is 3%, 2 is 4%, 3 is 5%, 4 is 6% and cap it there(We don't want the 10% heal on the hive as that is just two much) This will allow the dc's to be grouped again and encourage teamwork like before, and also improve reasons to drop just one dc(keeping the 3% and 10 health on the first dc and have 1% plus the 10 per dc on latter ones). If we go this route I also think that we should allow dc's to heal everything in one ping(like in earlier versions.) Also I think that Redemp should be beefed up alittle, but not by much, I would like to see that when you redemp you return with 75% of your life already full. I think that this minor change will allow it to become useful, even if just in hive rushing situations.
My other suggestions is a RT Change(what is the good, bad and ugly)
I think that rts are destoryed to fast with to little effort in this latest version. I don't think that the health is to low, it is just to hard to defend them even with the mini-map improvements. I think that what should be done to counteract this is reduce Eletrify time by 25%, and decrese the cost to 20 res. Make it where if a comm really wants to keep RT's safe he can, but at a reasonable price. This is will not make eletrify too powerful, but what it will do is make it a real strat, and it will allow it to accutally be used in the game, and not just a novelty after you already have the game won. I also think that you should not need a tf to elec things, but if you have a Tf give elec like a 20% damgae increase, and someting like a additional 10% for each tf after the first one up to 50% or something. AN alternative idea is instead of increasing damge the tfs allow for a % of life to be removed for each tf built or something, that way if a onos rushes a electrified RT and you have 3 tf's he would lose like 2%(Percent lost= Number of tfs - 1 and never larger then 3% life lost per zap) life each zap.
Thanks for taking hte time to read my post, and I am a public player.
3.1: 6 dcs gave thehive 60 hp per tick.
3.2 b2: 7000*.03 + 10 = 210 +10 = 220. So one DC is now worth 22 dcs (for the hive) from 3.1.
Yeah. We really dont need any more dc buffs.
I really like the new fade and onos.
Perhaps consider making the lerk's jump significantly more powerful? Not the flying, but the actual initial jump. Just to give him that extra boost to compensate a tad for the huge nerf of such a slow ascention rate.
Once again, 3.2 is the best version yet, good job *salutes*
How can you possibly like the new fade? The subtlety and responsiveness are gone. It's like before you were driving a viper and it got totaled, and your insurance company decided to replace it with a v4 honda civic that could blink in the readyroom, and said "it's better - I promise".
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The responsiveness isn't gone at all. You just have to actually hold through the acceleration rather then having your 0-full speed on the tap of the mouse. If anything the new fades allows for infinitely more control, since I have enough adren to actually air control while blinking rather then being hammered around.
For the love of god, most fades used to script a +attack, wait, -attack key so that they would blink at full speed without wasting adrenaline. That's just retarded, that there is no alternative to writing a script in order to be efficient. It works exactly the same way now, just add 30 or so waits, or don't because the new fade is better if you don't script. It's much more controllable.
It feels slower, because it's max speed is decreased, THAT part does feel like a nerf to the fade, but it's blink doesn't feel any less responsive.
...
If anything the new fades allows for infinitely more control, since I have enough adren to actually air control while blinking rather then being hammered around.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-dictionary.com definition 2: context of "Machinery"+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dictionary.com definition 2: context of "Machinery")</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->the ability of a machine or system to adjust quickly to suddenly altered external conditions, as of speed, load, or temperature, and to resume stable operation without undue delay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know how you define "responsiveness" but you just said exactly what I did: the responsiveness (by the above definition) is gone. As for subtlety, that's harder to explain. It has to do with utilizing the z-axis to throw off peoples' aim.
<b>Because of the increase in acceleration time and the way the gravity physics work, you have a great deal more air drag, causing all the aerial tricks to cost significantly more adrenaline while taking significantly longer to execute. That effectively "grounds" the fade, allowing it to fulfill its previous purpose, but without near the same ability to utilize the z-axis. The fade becomes far more simplistic and, to me, far more boring.</b>
I have way less air control now than I used to, and adrenaline gets burned significantly faster to do the same things. And no. I never scripted it. It wasn't even on mwheel.
<!--quoteo(post=1607585:date=Feb 18 2007, 04:36 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Swiftspear @ Feb 18 2007, 04:36 AM) [snapback]1607585[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It feels slower, because it's max speed is decreased<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The max speed is ~720 like it always was.
The old fade, you had to be on the ball to be able to blink from inside MS in tanith to outside with one hold of the blink button. It was basically a practically unobservable instant twitch (to the right then back, for the right turn then the left to get out those hallways) in one blink. And goddamn was it fast.
The new fade, you can do that with a lot more ease. Its a bit slower, but you also save more energy. This amount to more control over moving in the air, too... you could literally blink in a circle around a marine if your wrist could turn enough.
Who knows... the fade has definitely changed.
I've been fading a bit more in 3.2 now, and while +movement is very nice, hitting a wall/doorframe/whatever really sucks a lot more than before, since the acceleration is lowered.
The new DC is very nice as well - in scrims, we were surprised how much it was healing the hive by. I think its definitely a more viable 2nd chamber now. I like the RT change as well.
I don't know about the new JP cost. With a mediocre team, although they're more expendable, they're also vulnerable. But against a good team that welds, JPs with heavy weapons can hold an area forever against 2 hive aliens. Right now, I think JPs + Heavy Weapons might be a tad bit overpowered - anything short of a fade can't even get in and land enough hits to kill a JP before dying, and even one JP + HMG (25 res) is a dire threat to a fade.
I think my favorite change is the new minimap. Now every marine can stay informed about the entire game situation, even with an uncommunicative comm.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bump so it doesnt get lost. IMO could balance the lerk nerf.
Quoted so I at least don't <i>sound</i> like I'm only ranting.