Individual progession and 'teching up'
TheMuffinMan
Join Date: 2002-12-20 Member: 11234Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-12-20 Member: 11234Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">A concept idea for NS2</div>For quite a while now, I've been thinking about which fundamental aspects of NS I'd like to see carried over to NS2, and which aspects I'd like to see reworked. Having thought about it, one aspect of the current game which i feel deserves to be discussed is something I'll call the 'glass ceiling' (although it could be called anything <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> ):
At certain points in the game there are 'glass ceilings', which frustrate and limit the player in what he can do. Just a few examples:
- The first fade (assuming he knows what he is doing). There is a point in the game where the first fade appears and you are helpless, as a marine, to stop him. It doesn't matter how good a shot you are, you just aren't going to take down that fade with low level LMGs.
- Heavy armour. While a great game mechanic in that it promotes teamwork, it pretty much negates the use of the Skulk in combat. The widespread introduction of heavy armour into the game stops lower lifeforms (and thus a large amount of the alien team) from competing in combat.
This may sound like a bit of a whine at the moment, but please hear me out. In both cases, there is a cap on the individual. As the game progresses, individuals upgrade until the point is reached where players can no longer compete at a certain level. This, in my opinion, is a major flaw in the system.
To me, the strongest 'phase' of the game has always been vanilla marines vs vanilla skulks. It's evenly balanced, neither team is able to steam-roll the other and most importantly, <b>everyone </b>is able to compete. As the game progresses the balances tends to tip in one direction or another
Either the Marines win the resource battle and they tech up to such a level where much of the alien team simply cannot compete, or the opposite will happen and the low-tech marines will be overwhelmed by swarms of higher level lifeforms with only those few lucky enough to have a HMG or a jetpack able to actually compete.
The best (and usually longest) games are where the balance doesn't tip - all players can realistically compete throughout the entire game. The Marines never tech up to the point where skulks are useless in combat, and the Kharaa never reach the point where LMG marines are completely ineffective.
In NS2, I'd like to achieve this more often by altering the way individual players progress as the game goes on.
The basic gist behind the idea is that individuals will no longer 'tech up' to the same extent that they do now. The majority of the game is played at a basic level (in terms of the individual) - lower lifeforms and basic equipment.
The obvious flaw to this is that the game simply won't progress, or it will progress at such a slow pace that there seems to be no objective in sight. The solution to this is largely dependant on just how dynamic and interactive the maps are - something which the devs have hinted at with their blog on dynamic infestation and the like.
Instead of individual progression, in my vision of NS2 a team will progress on a strategic level more so than an individual level. While the primary objective of both teams is still to defeat their opposite, the game progresses through a series of secondary (and completely optional) objectives. Allow me to give a couple of examples:
- One map has an engineering department responsible for 80% of the lighting on the ship. A 5 minute running battle (remember, neither side has a significant technological advantage and thus the fight is pretty even. It is won and lost based on the skill of the combatants and important tactical decisions) results in the Kharaa overwhelming the Marine defences and shutting down the generator (via Dynamic Infestation). Main lights are disabled and emergency lights put into use. This gives the aliens a significant advantage in terms of tactics and strategy (Marines now need to adjust their game plan to put resources into researching flares, or what have you), but on an individual level every single player in the game is still able to compete.
- Another map takes place in an abandoned station which has sustained heavy flooding. By reaching and enabling the main pumps in engineering, the Marines are able to pump out the flood water and open up several new (and Marine biased) passages, completely changing the strategic landscape of the map. The marines now how a strategic advantage, but again there is nothing stopping every single alien player from competing.
This is just a concept idea, and as such please don't take these examples too literally. It would be great if someone more imaginative than myself came up with some better examples <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> I'd love to hear your thoughts and criticisms on the idea, thanks <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
N.B: I thought of this originally after reading <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?s=6633759247492408320&showtopic=99774" target="_blank">this thread</a>. It's an interesting discussion on the use of light in maps, and there are some great ideas on dynamic mapping.
At certain points in the game there are 'glass ceilings', which frustrate and limit the player in what he can do. Just a few examples:
- The first fade (assuming he knows what he is doing). There is a point in the game where the first fade appears and you are helpless, as a marine, to stop him. It doesn't matter how good a shot you are, you just aren't going to take down that fade with low level LMGs.
- Heavy armour. While a great game mechanic in that it promotes teamwork, it pretty much negates the use of the Skulk in combat. The widespread introduction of heavy armour into the game stops lower lifeforms (and thus a large amount of the alien team) from competing in combat.
This may sound like a bit of a whine at the moment, but please hear me out. In both cases, there is a cap on the individual. As the game progresses, individuals upgrade until the point is reached where players can no longer compete at a certain level. This, in my opinion, is a major flaw in the system.
To me, the strongest 'phase' of the game has always been vanilla marines vs vanilla skulks. It's evenly balanced, neither team is able to steam-roll the other and most importantly, <b>everyone </b>is able to compete. As the game progresses the balances tends to tip in one direction or another
Either the Marines win the resource battle and they tech up to such a level where much of the alien team simply cannot compete, or the opposite will happen and the low-tech marines will be overwhelmed by swarms of higher level lifeforms with only those few lucky enough to have a HMG or a jetpack able to actually compete.
The best (and usually longest) games are where the balance doesn't tip - all players can realistically compete throughout the entire game. The Marines never tech up to the point where skulks are useless in combat, and the Kharaa never reach the point where LMG marines are completely ineffective.
In NS2, I'd like to achieve this more often by altering the way individual players progress as the game goes on.
The basic gist behind the idea is that individuals will no longer 'tech up' to the same extent that they do now. The majority of the game is played at a basic level (in terms of the individual) - lower lifeforms and basic equipment.
The obvious flaw to this is that the game simply won't progress, or it will progress at such a slow pace that there seems to be no objective in sight. The solution to this is largely dependant on just how dynamic and interactive the maps are - something which the devs have hinted at with their blog on dynamic infestation and the like.
Instead of individual progression, in my vision of NS2 a team will progress on a strategic level more so than an individual level. While the primary objective of both teams is still to defeat their opposite, the game progresses through a series of secondary (and completely optional) objectives. Allow me to give a couple of examples:
- One map has an engineering department responsible for 80% of the lighting on the ship. A 5 minute running battle (remember, neither side has a significant technological advantage and thus the fight is pretty even. It is won and lost based on the skill of the combatants and important tactical decisions) results in the Kharaa overwhelming the Marine defences and shutting down the generator (via Dynamic Infestation). Main lights are disabled and emergency lights put into use. This gives the aliens a significant advantage in terms of tactics and strategy (Marines now need to adjust their game plan to put resources into researching flares, or what have you), but on an individual level every single player in the game is still able to compete.
- Another map takes place in an abandoned station which has sustained heavy flooding. By reaching and enabling the main pumps in engineering, the Marines are able to pump out the flood water and open up several new (and Marine biased) passages, completely changing the strategic landscape of the map. The marines now how a strategic advantage, but again there is nothing stopping every single alien player from competing.
This is just a concept idea, and as such please don't take these examples too literally. It would be great if someone more imaginative than myself came up with some better examples <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> I'd love to hear your thoughts and criticisms on the idea, thanks <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
N.B: I thought of this originally after reading <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?s=6633759247492408320&showtopic=99774" target="_blank">this thread</a>. It's an interesting discussion on the use of light in maps, and there are some great ideas on dynamic mapping.
Comments
but i still dont see how implementing this would fix the problems that you mentioned earlier. it wouldnt effect the outcome of a fade vs LMG's at all....
it may effect HA vs skulks, the HA moving slower in the water, or skulks hiding in darker vents if the lights go out, but it wont impact them too much.
and like you said, marines could just get flares to make dark places brighter. for the water, maybe the comm could research floaties? HAHAHAHA
One of the things that makes NS so good and fun (for me at least and many of the people I've played with) is that unlike most games out there it is a mixture of attempting to achieve both tactical and strategic advantage. It isn't determined solely on what advantage one side has in each firefight, or solely by who has more control of the map, much of the game is a balance of the two.
Heavy armor is the perfect example of this. In a tactical sense it gives the marines an overwhelming advantage when used properly, but in a strategic sense it changes things drastically. If the Kharaa keep thier cool, when heavy armor appears the lower lifeforms won't normally even try to fight them. Instead they should head around the map and try to inflict the death of a thousand cuts. Becuase heavy trains are essentially slow and unweildy using them opens up strategic options to the skulks even as they close tactical ones.
What you are proposing would essentially eleminate the tactical contest entirely. Whichever team has the more skilled players would win, becuase the other team wouldn't have measures (such as HA) to help counter the better players of the other team. I think the reason why you don't see the problem with what you are proposing is that you assume both teams have equally (or nearly so) skilled players. If that were so you idea would be great, but in reality things like heavies and higher lifeforms are there to overcome imbalances in skill.
<i>Also, I have to agree with the comment about an early fade being a problem. I've commented on it before, but short version it is the single most imbalanced and unstable element in NS. I dearly hope they take the opportunity to use NS2 to address that issue.</i>
dynamic map idea: a modular space station that the marines could release the docking clamps for certain sections when they become overrun with infestation, and the aliens could chew through ducting and produce steam, and other atmospheric effects in the hallways. and just for good measure, make the glass windows breakable, and when they do break, have the doors near them seal off. i think it would be cool to be charged by 2 oni and have the good sense to blow out the window, killing your self but saving your team.
Karrd - You're right in regards to the HA and the tactics and strategies involved.
I see your point in that the role of lower lifeforms shift as the game goes on - in the skulks case fighting on the frontline to attacking RTs and other key structures. This wouldn't be a problem, except that everyone spawns as a skulk. Players shouldn't be forced into different roles, they should have the option to compete in the fight at any stage in the game.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=Feb 6 2007, 06:00 AM:name=Karrd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Karrd @ Feb 6 2007, 06:00 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
What you are proposing would essentially eleminate the tactical contest entirely. Whichever team has the more skilled players would win, becuase the other team wouldn't have measures (such as HA) to help counter the better players of the other team. I think the reason why you don't see the problem with what you are proposing is that you assume both teams have equally (or nearly so) skilled players. If that were so you idea would be great, but in reality things like heavies and higher lifeforms are there to overcome imbalances in skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point about player skill is spot on, to be fair. It's something i neglected to look at in my original post, so thank you for bringing it up. The problem with concept ideas is that you tend to forget the practical reality <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
In terms of eliminating the tactical contest, i can see where you're coming from. In the current NS, a tactical advantage is usually granted by jumping to the next tech level, whether that be HA or a fade or what have you. If this idea was to be incorporated into the current NS then you'd be 100% correct, it would pretty much kill off any tactical contest.
In my mind, that is only one of many ways to achieve a tactical advantage (albeit pretty much the only way in the games current form). Looking at other games, such as Point of Existance or Counter-Strike (not that i'm drawing comparisons between NS and CS here), tactical superiority is achieved in a different fashion - decisions made by the individual players, battle plans, use of cover and the map, etc.
It's hard for me to put it all across as this thread is based on the idea that NS2 will be somewhat how i imagine it (a slower, more squad-based game with empasis on squad-level tactics). That's a major flaw right there, i'll admit - NS2 could end up being fundamentally the same as NS for all we know, and my ideas wouldn't work at all.
In terms of the most skilled team winning, i've never really seen this as a problem. The better team <b>should</b> win. I've been out of NS for a long time and it's probably warped by view on how balanced the teams usually are, but i feel that most servers would be able to balance the teams evenly enough to make it a fair fight.
You mention how the advanced roles are measures to counter the better players of the other team, but i tend to lean towards the view that the better players are usually the ones in these roles (again, the fade issue). Surely levelling the playing field somewhat would be a way in itself of countering the better players? Distribution of players between the two teams isn't something that i feel can be solved at the game-development level (it's down to servers to ensure that the teams are even), and i think it's counter-productive mistake to introduce caps into the game to help the weaker team. Again though, i'm probably just not being realistic.
I look forward to reading your views on the matter <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> One thing i've learned from all this - i type way too much <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Yeah, siege map, I know. Don't worry, it'll be aight in design and "prettieness"
For quite a while now, I've been thinking about which fundamental aspects of NS I'd like to see carried over to NS2, and which aspects I'd like to see reworked. Having thought about it, one aspect of the current game which i feel deserves to be discussed is something I'll call the 'glass ceiling' (although it could be called anything <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> ):
At certain points in the game there are 'glass ceilings', which frustrate and limit the player in what he can do. Just a few examples:
- The first fade (assuming he knows what he is doing). There is a point in the game where the first fade appears and you are helpless, as a marine, to stop him. It doesn't matter how good a shot you are, you just aren't going to take down that fade with low level LMGs.
- Heavy armour. While a great game mechanic in that it promotes teamwork, it pretty much negates the use of the Skulk in combat. The widespread introduction of heavy armour into the game stops lower lifeforms (and thus a large amount of the alien team) from competing in combat.
This may sound like a bit of a whine at the moment, but please hear me out. In both cases, there is a cap on the individual. As the game progresses, individuals upgrade until the point is reached where players can no longer compete at a certain level. This, in my opinion, is a major flaw in the system.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In summary, you want to prolong the phase of the game where the skulk and vanilla marine face off against one another.
<!--quoteo(post=1604098:date=Feb 5 2007, 06:10 PM:name=TheMuffinMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TheMuffinMan @ Feb 5 2007, 06:10 PM) [snapback]1604098[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
To me, the strongest 'phase' of the game has always been vanilla marines vs vanilla skulks. It's evenly balanced, neither team is able to steam-roll the other and most importantly, <b>everyone </b>is able to compete. As the game progresses the balances tends to tip in one direction or another
Either the Marines win the resource battle and they tech up to such a level where much of the alien team simply cannot compete, or the opposite will happen and the low-tech marines will be overwhelmed by swarms of higher level lifeforms with only those few lucky enough to have a HMG or a jetpack able to actually compete.
The best (and usually longest) games are where the balance doesn't tip - all players can realistically compete throughout the entire game. The Marines never tech up to the point where skulks are useless in combat, and the Kharaa never reach the point where LMG marines are completely ineffective.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know which servers you have been playing on during your NS times, but in competitive play the initial phase of the game is anything but evenly balanced for vanilla marine vs vanilla 1 hive skulk. It takes a lot of coordination and teamwork to defend in the opening stages as the alien team. It is almost impossible to do anything in a public game where there are a few decent marines that can aim. The only reason it seems balanced is because there is a mix of bad players on both teams that average players can feed on.
Competitive play shows that the initial stages of the game are biased towards the marines. Aliens have to defend their nodes, attack marine nodes, or push the marine base - each choice carrying risks. In mid-game, the marines must either tech up or push the growing second hive against fades. This is where the game starts to stabilize somewhat with even skill on both teams. Once the second hive is up, the game is fairly even if the aliens have fades and nodes and if the marines have tech and nodes. At this point, both teams have a fair capacity for mobilization, phasegates, jetpacks, leap, blink, and lerk flight. Melee units are able to focus more on attack than defense. Depending on the third hive and node control, the game is then pushed irreversibly in the favour of one or the other team, save for a screwup (surprise base loss, hive loss).
In public games, very little of this process occurs. If there are competent marines, the game is usually over before the second hive is even put up. If there are competent aliens, the game is over once there are 2-3 fades on the map. If both teams are incompetent, you will get a slurry of back and forth action until some chaotic event tips the scales in the favour of one team.
The nature of classic NS does not allow for the effective and ongoing competition of all players throughout the game, especially unskilled players. This aspect of the game allows rounds to end when the teams are obviously unbalanced skill-wise. If you are trying to change the game to make it fun and competitive for all players at all times, vanilla marine vs vanilla skulk is definitely not the way to do it.
<!--quoteo(post=1604098:date=Feb 5 2007, 06:10 PM:name=TheMuffinMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TheMuffinMan @ Feb 5 2007, 06:10 PM) [snapback]1604098[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In NS2, I'd like to achieve this more often by altering the way individual players progress as the game goes on.
The basic gist behind the idea is that individuals will no longer 'tech up' to the same extent that they do now. The majority of the game is played at a basic level (in terms of the individual) - lower lifeforms and basic equipment.
The obvious flaw to this is that the game simply won't progress, or it will progress at such a slow pace that there seems to be no objective in sight. The solution to this is largely dependant on just how dynamic and interactive the maps are - something which the devs have hinted at with their blog on dynamic infestation and the like.
Instead of individual progression, in my vision of NS2 a team will progress on a strategic level more so than an individual level. While the primary objective of both teams is still to defeat their opposite, the game progresses through a series of secondary (and completely optional) objectives. Allow me to give a couple of examples:
- One map has an engineering department responsible for 80% of the lighting on the ship. A 5 minute running battle (remember, neither side has a significant technological advantage and thus the fight is pretty even. It is won and lost based on the skill of the combatants and important tactical decisions) results in the Kharaa overwhelming the Marine defences and shutting down the generator (via Dynamic Infestation). Main lights are disabled and emergency lights put into use. This gives the aliens a significant advantage in terms of tactics and strategy (Marines now need to adjust their game plan to put resources into researching flares, or what have you), but on an individual level every single player in the game is still able to compete.
- Another map takes place in an abandoned station which has sustained heavy flooding. By reaching and enabling the main pumps in engineering, the Marines are able to pump out the flood water and open up several new (and Marine biased) passages, completely changing the strategic landscape of the map. The marines now how a strategic advantage, but again there is nothing stopping every single alien player from competing.
This is just a concept idea, and as such please don't take these examples too literally. It would be great if someone more imaginative than myself came up with some better examples <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> I'd love to hear your thoughts and criticisms on the idea, thanks <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
N.B: I thought of this originally after reading <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?s=6633759247492408320&showtopic=99774" target="_blank">this thread</a>. It's an interesting discussion on the use of light in maps, and there are some great ideas on dynamic mapping.
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I really don't mind objective-based game play, which diverts from the attention placed on hives. I am also not against the game being slowed down somewhat to accommodate objectives. This would probably be very possible, since I read somewhere that location-based hives are being done away with for NS2. This means that a second hive wouldn't have to be built in a particular place on the map. Perhaps there would be less restrictions on where hives could be placed, allowing for the diversion of game play to objectives like the ones you have mentioned. This is for classic NS.
Another game mode can also be made for this kind of objective-based game play - like combat, but limited to certain upgrades. Just don't make it vanilla skulks vs vanilla marines.
Both map ideas have been tried and tested on this ancient engine, to some extend succesfully. But lets not kid ourselves, the current engine has done its job, but there is just not much interactivity to be implemented in maps besides welding (vents/passages), doors, water draining and the likes. And recently I've managed to get 2 more elements into play in NS1 none the less. More interactive resnodes (weldable and lockdown nodes).
Now if any of you know me, you should know I absolutely LOVE interactivity in NS maps. And objectives besides resnodes and lockdowns are essential if NS is truely going to evolve (NS2 that is)
//rant mode off <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />