1.03 Patch Is Evil! (rnd 2!)
Infinitum
Anime Encyclopedia Join Date: 2002-08-08 Member: 1111Members, Constellation
Anime Encyclopedia Join Date: 2002-08-08 Member: 1111Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Uneven teams?! NO PROBLEM FOR 1.03!</div> Yes I have grown very cynical over the 1.03 testing, so you'll excuse me if I sound a might concieted.
Just got back from a server running the beta of 1.03, all up it is indeed very very spiffy. HOWEVER the Evil Curse of 1.03 struck again! Playing on NS_Nothing, happily taking a beating from the marines when all of a sudden the round ended. An all round cry of "wtf" arose as their was no admin in sight. Perhaps it was just a glitch, it is still in beta stages.
How wrong I was, next round a group of 4 guys in a clan decided to go practice somewhere else, so all 4 of them left and the team dropped down to 4 (kharaa) - 9
Ok, so 4 guys left... damn "Teams plz"
Round ends.
It appears when people drop, rather than rely on the kindness of the other side to even the teams we'll just end the round...... BRILLIANT! Come on Flayra, I know your godlike with your coding, but this is NOT the way to be fixing uneven teams.
I may be incorrect about this, so don't be holding my word to it....
Just got back from a server running the beta of 1.03, all up it is indeed very very spiffy. HOWEVER the Evil Curse of 1.03 struck again! Playing on NS_Nothing, happily taking a beating from the marines when all of a sudden the round ended. An all round cry of "wtf" arose as their was no admin in sight. Perhaps it was just a glitch, it is still in beta stages.
How wrong I was, next round a group of 4 guys in a clan decided to go practice somewhere else, so all 4 of them left and the team dropped down to 4 (kharaa) - 9
Ok, so 4 guys left... damn "Teams plz"
Round ends.
It appears when people drop, rather than rely on the kindness of the other side to even the teams we'll just end the round...... BRILLIANT! Come on Flayra, I know your godlike with your coding, but this is NOT the way to be fixing uneven teams.
I may be incorrect about this, so don't be holding my word to it....
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Its a beta server, deal with it.
There will be bugs, there will be new ideas - give Flayra your opinion, but don't demand things be changed before he even comits to it!
All he can do is try. If it doesn't work, it can be fixed.
The "timebomb" and the "teambalancing" seems to be glitchy... or somewhat a bad idea.
I just don't see a "Post your comments on 1.03" stickied anywhere, otherwise I would be posting there. Thus I'm posting my own experiences with the 1.03 patch to let people know what happens and what should/could be done about it.
I have not yet seen an excellent auto-team balance script for ANY game or mod in existence. You have to have enough faith in the opposing team that they will even the teams. Ending the round just because a group of players left is an extremely evil way of doing things, because your screwing over the 4 people who worked really hard to develop their bases just because a clan decided to leave the server (No discredit to the clan of course)
It's just not a very good system IMO (If it even IS a system, it may be a bug and I'm making an arse out of myself.... hooboy)
I saw something in another thread about timeouts in this situation tho...
You think he could be trying to get a point accross?
And no, I won't spell it out for anyone if they can't see it - learn the hard way, as you seem to be doing.
So...... your saying a system that ends the round because a few people leaves to do whatever is fair and just to the other players in the server?
You think he could be trying to get a point accross?
And no, I won't spell it out for anyone if they can't see it - learn the hard way, as you seem to be doing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
while he (i assume you're talking about Flayra) is trying to get a point across, he's doing it in a way which annoys people...
sometimes people don't just leave for the game because it's losing... sometimes it's because they got stuff to do like school or dinner or whatsoever...
and the timeout thing, while it is convinient at some point, it would be rather annoying to those who're trying really hard to turn the situation around, and they are just so close to achieving it...
"A minority should be allowed to ruin the game for the majority"? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
seriously now:
i thought the new code for 1.03 was just that you can't join a team if you've "already seen that team", meant as a fix for the alien resource flushing.
This sort of round-ending "balance" is horrible, as it would allow a group of players to go ahead and reset the round anytime they liked. And such a minority would only need to be as little as, say, 25% of the server. You can't even pass the most minor of votes with 25% agreements in most admin systems.
While people complained that team balance is a problem, I really don't think this is a solution. Particularly with the new feature that once you play one team you can't play the other that game (which stops people from switching over to even teams), it somewhat compounds it. Frankly, between this and a simple join limit, I'd say the join limit is preferable.
You think he could be trying to get a point accross?
And no, I won't spell it out for anyone if they can't see it - learn the hard way, as you seem to be doing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Translation: I have no idea why it's there.
Although if I have to guess one reason other than evening the teams, it could be to counteract the ready room exploit. This is, of course, conjecture.
That the thing just kicks out with no warning at all sounds more like a bug than a deliberate act to me.
i don't care to be auto-assigned at the start of a round, but when i play i play to win. being switched to a losing team is ridiculous. there's a reason why their team is falling apart, have them lose and start a new round
and random round termination due to player dropping is most obviously a bug, not a feature.
If a team has less players, why not power their weapons/attacks up more to compensate? Obviously a difference of only 1 player wouldn't activate it, but when you down 2 or more players it starts kicking in.
Here's the best example I can think of, blown WAYYY out of proportion most likely <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
(I'm just making numbers up just to show you the scale. It'd take a while to find the correct correlation between lack of players and a percentage increase)
2 players down (10% increase in attack and defense power)
3 down (20%)
4 (35%)
5 (50%)
6 (60%)
etc
Like a max increase of 75% would be about right, but then to get to that percentage of power increase the teams have to be like 2 - 10. Better having 2 super human entities being swarmed by a mod of enemies rather than 2 normal guys getting overrun by idiots who won't swap. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
So rather than saying "No no that won't work" and having the hordes reply with "WTF I'm l33t joo don't know what you're talking about" he just codes it up and lets people see for themselves why their well intentioned suggestions won't really work. Thus proving his point.
I personally don't think this is what Flayra is doing, but I believe that is closer to what Silver Fox meant.
<u>People leave for some (generalized) reasons:</u><ul><li> they don't like loosing
<li> they have problems with their connection/lag/ping etc.
<li> they have other (important) things to do - work, eat, sleep etc.
</ul>and IMHO <b>no</b> team-forcing will help this.
To help those players who <b>really like to continue the game</b> (even if in a 'weaker' team) my idea would be to change the rps the team receives - question on that: 1x boost (say 100 for leaving players) or continuous increased income for the smaller team?
My question on the forced game end: why not just let it be as it was before (1.0-1.02)?
There are (still) no general servers for rating of teams/players [as I came up with <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=11118&hl=server' target='_blank'>here</a>] so I think it isn't really an issue (asides annoying people, not admitting they have lost, that is <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> ) as there are no points to loose when quitting won/lost/boring games...
Anything Flayra can implement will <b>not help underaged/destructive/stupid/egoistic etc. players</b> spoiling the game somehow - because every rule can be broken somehow if intended to...
(look for ex. at friendly fire, damage on command centers, voting etc.)
<b>Meaning: Public servers will always suffer from such behaviour</b> - and trying to fix each and every issue IMHO tends to "irritate" "serious" players.
Isn't there already a "game-finisher" inherent? Aliens without hives don't revceive resources(?) and can't respawn - marines without command center also loose...? (which in fact isn't game-balanced, as with no CC, a single marine should be able to install/rebuild some sort of replacement-CC - preconditioned the marine team still has enough resources to do so (should be around 80 rps - alike a hive)... right?)
Personally I prefer the "no-forced-end" variant... (and no: I don't hide as a <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> in vents to annoy winning marines <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->)
Just my 2 cents...
I'm playing as an Alien, and we have a 3 player advantage because some Marines left, so I go into the readyroom to switch teams... and it won't let me. At all. The teams *do* need to be balanced, so how about turn off the teamswitch protection when a team has less people, thus the other team can even the teams.
Sorry if I don't make sense, I'm a marine jarhead.
The team balance issue is also something we discussed. Team balance is a big issue in NS but not becuase of the mod its self. Too many people [read agnst filled teen agers] lack basic sportsmanship. So what if you lose. Once a team, be it marine or alien, makes a decisive action (like taking the last hive for aliens or taking a second hive as marines) people drop from the server like Enron Executives. Some kind of balance needs t be coded in. Personally I like the time check possibility. The player on the team with the greater number of players who has the least amount of time on the team should be automagically switched to the team with the least people. Alternatively, someone here mentioned a resource bonus for the undermanned team and a resource tax on the over manned team. This is also a good idea but I don't think it will be as effective as something that balances the people.
Of course, that still leaves the problem of people leaving when they start losing, but it would possible lessen the frequency of that happening.
(I guess this has already been said a few times already though)
That said though, I do rather enjoy the hunt for the last alien. It's a prestige thing. It's almost worth binding a key to "Safari Joe does it again!" for <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
EDIT:
Though actually, one of the (many) things that got me interested in NS to start with was this idea that leaving just one alien alive meant that the aliens could make a comeback. I thought that was such a cool feature. I've only ever seen one game where a nearly dead alien team got a new hive up, but it was great fun. We still lost, because the marines were fully equipped by then, but it was fantastic to have them on the run for at least a little while.
To be honest I really don't mind waiting for the last player to be hunted down. Frankly I've spent a lot more time in spec mode in CS after dying early in a round, so who cares really? If you don't like it so much then use the time to put the kettle on, or something. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
you can't join the smaller team, even if it has just one player less (different from 1.02 where you can join a team that has 1 player more)
That's a good idea and should stay, but forcing players to change DURING a game is NOT good. I invest something into a team, and I want to get the enjoyment of winning if I deserve it. I will not accept being forced into a team I just helped defeating. What a silly idea is that.
And that has nothing to do with sportsmanship... or how many football/soccer/hockey/baseball players do you see switching teams during a match to make the game "more fun"?
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'm assuming that's a typo, or something.
more like a complete logic failure
what i mean, you can't join the BIGGER team even if it has just one player MORE
----
Another question: Just when is the bilebomb/xenocide damage vs. structures thing going to be fixed. At the moment it feels like they do 2 damage to structures, intead of 2x. From the manual it looks like xenocide ought to be an anti-structure weapon, but I've seen many a skulk do kamikaze rushes at a CC with no effect.
End game, all hives down, a few (or just one) aliens alive. Up pops a little timer, say, three to four minutes, counting down. Within this time period, if a gorge is able to begin the construction of a hive (yes, <i>BEGIN</i>, not finish) the timer is removed, and the game continues. If the remaining aliens are unable to begin construction of a hive by the end of this timer, and the marines still have not found the remaining aliens, then the round end (if the marines had found and killed the last aliens the the round would obviously end as well). This solves the issue of lamers extending the game just for the heck of it, but still allows for that rare comeback (besides, if a gorge has not secured a hive within 4 minutes of the last one's destruction, then any competent marine team would have by that point turreted all the hives anyway).
As far as pre-round balancing - simple - don't allow people to join a team if it has a player count advantage. Also, force players to join a team (through an auto-distributer) after 30 seconds of remaining in the ready-room (this prevents lamers from sitting around in the RR waiting for a team to clear up, which clogs free spots which would otherwise have players filling them)
And finally, for mid-round balancing: Once there is a discrepency in the team sizes by more than 1 (i.e 6 to 8, but not 7 to 8), a hidden timer begins. If this discrepency has not been fixed within, say, 30 seconds, the player on the larger team who has been on the server for the LEAST amount of time is given a warning message, saying that, after his death, he will be switched to the other team. At this point, a vote for the larger team could be presented asking for volunteers to switch to the other team -- this allows a player to switch to the other team if he wants to be nice and even it up. If a player were to volunteer to switch, the original switchee would remain on the team, and, after the volunteer's death, the volunteer would be switched. Simple.
As you can see, this presents the least amount of pain in being forced to abandon a team you've been working for hours on, and gives most of the control to the players themselves.
What do you guys think of this? If it's popular perhaps we should get Flay's attention/opinion?
Thanks guys,
Later
-Fishman
2 players down (10% increase in attack and defense power)
3 down (20%)
4 (35%)
5 (50%)
6 (60%)
etc
Like a max increase of 75% would be about right, but then to get to that percentage of power increase the teams have to be like 2 - 10. Better having 2 super human entities being swarmed by a mod of enemies <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
HAHAHA I like that idea Infinitum. Count me in for super human abilities!
Honestly though, even if I'm an alien and we're about to get Onos, I will switch to even the teams up. I enjoy a good fight to the end.
My fav quote:
"Real men join the losing team." <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Schumacher isn't changing to Mercedes - while the race lasts...
Or: "Hey dude - our goalkeeper is feeling ill... Yours have to play on our side for the 2nd half..." (<- Ever heard that <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->)
You invest in your <b>initally selected</b> team - and then shall be forced to play against it?? (I think that's complete nonsense. Also any switching player brings in "insider-information" - which is also unbalancing a game... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> )
<i>On danger repeating myself:</i>
? Auto-balancing <b>before</b> the game starts: Fine - as I can decide if I will leave or play on a team I did not intended when choosing this particular server.
? Auto-balancing <b>whilst</b> in game: <b>biiiig NO, Sir!</b> It's just not useful/fair to kick someone just to even out player-numbers. You can't force someone to work fine with "the enemy". (It is quite possible he will continue working for his old team by doing sabotage on the new...)
(I already made a (somewhat technical) suggestion concerning team-balance and rating in this <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=11118&hl=team' target='_blank'>thread</a>... )
The "2-player-more-auto-team-force" thingy when choosing a team is quite ok for me.
I agree the auto-team-switching probably shouldn't exist in the tournament mode.
As a side note, on several servers that I've played on, when an admin is present and the teams are unfair, they'll start their OWN countdown, simply "Even teams or I start kicking". This almost always works, but I think it might be a good idea to give admins the ability to force individual players back to the RR, so that they're forced to switch w/o actually being kicked off the server...
One fairly good way of forcing even teams i have seen is to disable scoring when teams are uneven. This was part of some Quake 2 CTF mod. To prevent abuse due to spying on the enemy, movement should probably be disabled as well - untill teams are even.
Balancing teams on pub servers will always be a problem, people will have to switch teams one way or another, there's no 'nice' way to go about it.
Even an equal number of players in each team is no guarantee for balanced teams because it ignores the matter of skill (imagine noob marines vs a clan of aliens).
But somehow forcing even number of players would be better than just ending a game with uneven teams. We'd probably end up with few games played to completion, i'd find that very frustrating
One minor detail: in 1.02 teams are considered even when there's no more than 2 players difference either way. The problem is that while eg 11 vs 13 may still be considered even (24 player server), 5 vs 7 is not (12 player server). So it should not be an absolute number but rather a percentage. I think 20% difference is already stretching it.
And maybe the fact that marines always have one person not in the field (commander) should be considered as well. Else 5 marines vs 7 aliens would effectively be 4 vs 7 in the field (even though the comm does count for something, he won't be pulling any triggers). According to current game rules this would be balanced.
I have left as commander to even the teams. It was 7 on 4 and i told my team they they had to even the teams or i would, nobody did, so i switched to alien and without my leadership they faultered (they *had* pushed the aliens back to 1 hive) and i lead the aliens to victory insted.
The best system would simply allow people to spawn <i>only</i> when teams are even. So if it's 7v6, everyones spawns on both teams. But if marines have a 2 person advantage (8v6) than only 7 players on the marine team will spawn, the 8th will hang in spec mode until a team mate dies, then he will spawn, and his team mate will hang in spec mod until another player dies.
This ensures that there are even teams all the time, and at the same time forces nobody to switch. Now, if waiting gets too anoying for you, you can always switch teams, and you won't have to wait anymore. <i>Not</i> balancing teams when you can is the biggest show of selfishness in any online game.