ssjyodaJoin Date: 2002-03-05Member: 274Members, Squad Five Blue
i like that idea tweadle... an onos does need a way out of vent besides the ladder.. i also dont like how the ladder was shortened, it feels way way too short, but it was too far before... that and the lights and i'd be happy.
Nice work, I like the layout changes at biodome and furnace. I have a few reservations about the new lighting though. Here are some comparisons so I can explain myself. All screenshots have the correct light level adjustments. Obviously the brightness etc varies depending on hardware/ns configuration, but that shouldn't really matter.
The old ready room in this shot is a bit darker, and the colored light is more confined. In the new version the light is brighter, and more washed out. Personally I think the original looks better.
I think in the new version lava catwalk's lighting is a bit overdone. It's washed out, and because of that, theres no real sense of where the yellow glow is emanating from.
I think that last screen of the scanner is a very good example of excessive use of colour. The light is so bright it actually harms the overall composition because the stark ceiling texture is highlighted instead of hidden in the shadows as big featureless celings should be <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
At the end of the day, though, layout > lighting <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/marine.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::marine::" border="0" alt="marine.gif" /> (not to say lighting isn't part of gameplay, but layout is more important imo).
Honestly don't go crazy with the Vent-Bio vent, it doesn't need a radical overhaul to make it fairer, just some spots where you can duck into cover. It shouldn't be an 'easy' route for Aliens because of how much of a shortcut it is (and bearing in mind how slowly vanilla Marines and HAs move through it).
Great work! The changes are good. The only nitpicketing thing I would say (as most people have) is the lighting. It seems to change too suddenly from area to area as theres a relatively big contrast in the colours. Individually, they look nice, its just when you move between them.
Edit: It actually seems I differ slightly from those who posted above me. I don't mind the brightness/darkness levels of the maps. Just the sudden change of colours/hues from one area to the next. The actual brightness/washed out look is alright to me.
Adding a new hallway/vent linking biodome and ventilation is definitely not a good idea. As I said, making angled vents is a better solution to marine camping. However, there were much greater gameplay issues with the original origin, and that's what I'm concentring on right now. I will slightly modify the vent between biodome and ventilation for next build, but I'm awaiting more feedback on the current gameplay until then.
As for lighting, I will see what I can do, but it does take a lot of time to get the right values.
Probably the feedback everyone can give, but I guess it doesn't hurt posting these.
PG at industrial is quite painful to take out in 3.2 if aliens are holding furn and vent. The lift is quite risky for an onos and 3.2 fades can't always make the difference. At the same time aliens can cap max 3 rt:s while marines pretty much have the rest. The dbl ladders are sometimes a bit tricky for the onoses too.
We managed to stand against an ore siege with 2 hives, onos, 1 or 2 fades and a lerk. Its still a bit cramped, but felt pretty much balanced to me.
Not much else to mention after just one pcw, probably too early to give even this much feedback.
Well, the new lights are simply GREAT ! Now this map has a particular ambiance. Menes hold the same spirit as the original one but gave it some impressive esthetic beauty. Moreover, some parts seem more logical like the corridor between ore extraction and doubles, now it seems like it was thought to carry minerals or anything from ore to doubles.
But Menes forgot one of the most important things of this map : the chairs in computer lab !!!!!!!! Now he just has to restart from the begining. :x
Now that ive actually done a run around, gotta say, beautiful work.
I especially love the newly designed areas & the old areas without the clips. A perfect example is in Furnace; you can actually get up into that middle pillar thing, and theres plenty of room to drop ups or anything. Awesome.
The lighting didnt bother me much. Its brighter, which can be a good thing. But some areas like Double do seem to be missing a bit of the contrast. Maybe even a simple recompile with a lower bounce setting?
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2007
Probably asked before, but is this version map going to replace the one in ns3.2 beta2/final? It still has an official one yaknow <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1600974:date=Jan 22 2007, 09:42 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Jan 22 2007, 09:42 PM) [snapback]1600974[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I also have a question:
<b>When can constellation members expect to playtest this map? For great justice.</b> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe try setting -fade 2.0 or so. This will result in the light not travelling as far. -bounce 1 could also do the trick. These are both compile-time options and definately worth experimenting with. If this is the first thing you do, you'll probably find the map gets very dark. However, it can be easier to add light than subtract light anyway. (I find at least...) Match the texture lights first, then worry about the spotlights, etc.
Whats wrong with the lights? Why does every ns map need to be dark or have uber dark corners..... The brightness on this map is perfect and the light scheme on every room looks ok... Clean rooms/walls, (+)(+)
"Contrast" is something that is a part of ns maps because it can help the atmosphere. It can make lighting more realistic, or it can simply help set the "mood" or ambience of a room. It is a major component of a good looking map. The lighting as it is, is <i>okay</i>, but it could be better with a bit of tweaking.
Ok I agree with you on some parts, but the "mood" youre talking about is only exiting at first sight but the more you play it the more annoying it gets. Hence all the gamma tweaks everyone has. Contrast is important but youre overrating "ambience" over "gameplay". Sure little tweaking satisfy's everyone but plz do not make dark corners as its totaly useless.
That is why machina and prometheus failed in my eyes. Ambience over gameplay doesnt work.
<!--quoteo(post=1600725:date=Jan 21 2007, 11:36 PM:name=Olmy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Olmy @ Jan 21 2007, 11:36 PM) [snapback]1600725[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I think in the new version lava catwalk's lighting is a bit overdone. It's washed out, and because of that, theres no real sense of where the yellow glow is emanating from. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So basically you disagree with the over brightening just to keep competitive gamers happy that they can easily frag their aliens? I'm with you on that too, the original had much more contrast and ambiance particularly in lighting.
Let's just make the lighting in Bast all over bright now shall we? For some reason NS mapping has come from the early days of creating an atmosphere to just making some pretty architecture and pretty bright coloured lights.
<!--quoteo(post=1601143:date=Jan 23 2007, 03:00 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Thaldarin @ Jan 23 2007, 03:00 PM) [snapback]1601143[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> So basically you disagree with the over brightening just to keep competitive gamers happy that <b>they can easily frag their aliens? </b> I'm with you on that too, the original had much more contrast and ambiance particularly in lighting. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Whats the use of being negative against "comp"gamers style.. Its not about getting easy alien frags... because its the opposite effect when youre on alien .....
Then explain why competitive gamers moan about maps which aren't full bright?
Edit: I remember Greedo made a level which didn't become official, had an excellent layout, excellent architecture and the gameplay flowed well. Although it had dark lighting, contrast, ambiance and was not full bright therefore the competitive scene hated it.
I have heard many comments on the lighting and as I already said, I am making changes for the next build. However, don't expect the lighting to be the exact same as the old origin, as it wasn't perfect either. The new lighting will be less bright and the colors more accurate to the original ones, but the areas will be remain a tad brighter than the ones on the old origin. This is a compromise for people who prefer atmosphere and for those who prefer brighter lighting. The decision will be final, as this is an endless debate based on personal opinions about what ns should be about. Also, I don't want to get a public vs competitive debate going in my awesome topic, so just both stop there.
Now, I'd much rather hear about real balance issues, if any. I'm working closely with long time competitive players, but I'd also like to hear about gameplay issues from public communities. If you don't voice yourself, others will do it for you.
<!--quoteo(post=1601161:date=Jan 23 2007, 03:11 PM:name=Menes)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Menes @ Jan 23 2007, 03:11 PM) [snapback]1601161[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I have heard many comments on the lighting and as I already said, I am making changes for the next build. However, don't expect the lighting to be the exact same as the old origin, as it wasn't perfect either. The new lighting will be less bright and the colors more accurate to the original ones, but the areas will be remain a tad brighter than the ones on the old origin. This is a compromise for people who prefer atmosphere and for those who prefer brighter lighting. The decision will be final, as this is an endless debate based on personal opinions about what ns should be about. Also, I don't want to get a public vs competitive debate going in my awesome topic, so just both stop there.
Now, I'd much rather hear about real balance issues, if any. I'm working closely with long time competitive players, but I'd also like to hear about gameplay issues from public communities. If you don't voice yourself, others will do it for you. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Is that a contradiction? You don't want Public vs Competitive play discussed, but you want both types of players to comment on the level for the purpose of each play? You will get a debate/discussion whether you like it or not asking for both scenes and players to comment.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Thaldarin,
I will only say this once. Stop derailing this topic with irrelevant points. The feedback ( not debate ) should be about the map. If you don't have something to say about the map, then don't post. If you disagree with someone else point of view, get over it. It isn't for you to sort through the feedback and look for compromise, that is for the mapper to do himself.
I'm asking for both public and competitive communities to post gameplay comments/suggestions about the map. I read all suggestions and give them consideration. I'm smart enough to know whether a suggestion should be implemented or not. I am however not asking them to debate whether competitive play is more fun than public play or if competitive players are this or that. I hope this is clear.
I'd just like to say really ###### good job. What I've seen of the map is great though I'm maybe I'd play with the vents around xeno, the RT isn't really any safer than it was.
My only concern I can see is with the vents by the stairs leading into Biodome hive.
If an Onos is walking and his hull would pass over the vent, he gets stopped and attached to the ladder. Very easy to reproduce, just walk into Biodome down the stairs on the right side. Also if he is really sloppy he can possibly fall into the vents too (without crouching).
Shrinking the vent entrance a couple units and moving the ladder to the other side should fix that up.
If I wasn't clear as to where this is at, here's a screenshot <a href="http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs311&d=07042&f=biovents.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://xs311.xs.to/xs311/07042/biovents.jpg.xs.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /></a>
<!--quoteo(post=1601254:date=Jan 23 2007, 09:53 PM:name=sawce)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(sawce @ Jan 23 2007, 09:53 PM) [snapback]1601254[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> My only concern I can see is with the vents by the stairs leading into Biodome hive.
If an Onos is walking and his hull would pass over the vent, he gets stopped and attached to the ladder. Very easy to reproduce, just walk into Biodome down the stairs on the right side. Also if he is really sloppy he can possibly fall into the vents too (without crouching).
Shrinking the vent entrance a couple units and moving the ladder to the other side should fix that up.
If I wasn't clear as to where this is at, here's a screenshot <a href="http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs311&d=07042&f=biovents.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://xs311.xs.to/xs311/07042/biovents.jpg.xs.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /></a> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Good spot!
Comments
i also dont like how the ladder was shortened, it feels way way too short, but it was too far before... that and the lights and i'd be happy.
I have a few reservations about the new lighting though. Here are some comparisons so I can explain myself. All screenshots have the correct light level adjustments. Obviously the brightness etc varies depending on hardware/ns configuration, but that shouldn't really matter.
<b>Old ready room</b>
<img src="http://olmy.thesevens.net/images/general/originremake/ns_originoldrr.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
<b>New ready room</b>
<img src="http://olmy.thesevens.net/images/general/originremake/ns_originnewrr.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
The old ready room in this shot is a bit darker, and the colored light is more confined. In the new version the light is brighter, and more washed out. Personally I think the original looks better.
<b>Old cargo</b>
<img src="http://olmy.thesevens.net/images/general/originremake/ns_originoldcargo.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
<b>New cargo</b>
<img src="http://olmy.thesevens.net/images/general/originremake/ns_originnewcargo.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
The new cargo is far brighter, and is very washed out. I don't think the lighting really works here.
<b>Old ore scanner</b>
<img src="http://olmy.thesevens.net/images/general/originremake/ns_originoldore.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
<b>New ore scanner</b>
<img src="http://olmy.thesevens.net/images/general/originremake/ns_originnewore.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
Again, in the remake, the red lighting is very bright and washed out to some degree. I think the original has a better balance of light and dark.
<b>Old lava catwalk</b>
<img src="http://olmy.thesevens.net/images/general/originremake/ns_originoldlava.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
<b>New lava catwalk</b>
<img src="http://olmy.thesevens.net/images/general/originremake/ns_originnewlava.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
I think in the new version lava catwalk's lighting is a bit overdone. It's washed out, and because of that, theres no real sense of where the yellow glow is emanating from.
At the end of the day, though, layout > lighting <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/marine.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::marine::" border="0" alt="marine.gif" /> (not to say lighting isn't part of gameplay, but layout is more important imo).
Honestly don't go crazy with the Vent-Bio vent, it doesn't need a radical overhaul to make it fairer, just some spots where you can duck into cover. It shouldn't be an 'easy' route for Aliens because of how much of a shortcut it is (and bearing in mind how slowly vanilla Marines and HAs move through it).
Edit: It actually seems I differ slightly from those who posted above me. I don't mind the brightness/darkness levels of the maps. Just the sudden change of colours/hues from one area to the next. The actual brightness/washed out look is alright to me.
As for lighting, I will see what I can do, but it does take a lot of time to get the right values.
Probably the feedback everyone can give, but I guess it doesn't hurt posting these.
PG at industrial is quite painful to take out in 3.2 if aliens are holding furn and vent. The lift is quite risky for an onos and 3.2 fades can't always make the difference. At the same time aliens can cap max 3 rt:s while marines pretty much have the rest. The dbl ladders are sometimes a bit tricky for the onoses too.
We managed to stand against an ore siege with 2 hives, onos, 1 or 2 fades and a lerk. Its still a bit cramped, but felt pretty much balanced to me.
Not much else to mention after just one pcw, probably too early to give even this much feedback.
Now this map has a particular ambiance. Menes hold the same spirit as the original one but gave it some impressive esthetic beauty.
Moreover, some parts seem more logical like the corridor between ore extraction and doubles, now it seems like it was thought to carry minerals or anything from ore to doubles.
But Menes forgot one of the most important things of this map : the chairs in computer lab !!!!!!!!
Now he just has to restart from the begining. :x
I especially love the newly designed areas & the old areas without the clips. A perfect example is in Furnace; you can actually get up into that middle pillar thing, and theres plenty of room to drop ups or anything. Awesome.
The lighting didnt bother me much. Its brighter, which can be a good thing. But some areas like Double do seem to be missing a bit of the contrast. Maybe even a simple recompile with a lower bounce setting?
<b>When can constellation members expect to playtest this map? For great justice.</b>
I also have a question:
<b>When can constellation members expect to playtest this map? For great justice.</b>
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whenever they want?
Why does every ns map need to be dark or have uber dark corners.....
The brightness on this map is perfect and the light scheme on every room looks ok...
Clean rooms/walls, (+)(+)
That is why machina and prometheus failed in my eyes. Ambience over gameplay doesnt work.
I think in the new version lava catwalk's lighting is a bit overdone. It's washed out, and because of that, theres no real sense of where the yellow glow is emanating from.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So basically you disagree with the over brightening just to keep competitive gamers happy that they can easily frag their aliens? I'm with you on that too, the original had much more contrast and ambiance particularly in lighting.
Let's just make the lighting in Bast all over bright now shall we? For some reason NS mapping has come from the early days of creating an atmosphere to just making some pretty architecture and pretty bright coloured lights.
So basically you disagree with the over brightening just to keep competitive gamers happy that <b>they can easily frag their aliens? </b> I'm with you on that too, the original had much more contrast and ambiance particularly in lighting.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whats the use of being negative against "comp"gamers style.. Its not about getting easy alien frags... because its the opposite effect when youre on alien .....
Edit: I remember Greedo made a level which didn't become official, had an excellent layout, excellent architecture and the gameplay flowed well. Although it had dark lighting, contrast, ambiance and was not full bright therefore the competitive scene hated it.
Now, I'd much rather hear about real balance issues, if any. I'm working closely with long time competitive players, but I'd also like to hear about gameplay issues from public communities. If you don't voice yourself, others will do it for you.
I have heard many comments on the lighting and as I already said, I am making changes for the next build. However, don't expect the lighting to be the exact same as the old origin, as it wasn't perfect either. The new lighting will be less bright and the colors more accurate to the original ones, but the areas will be remain a tad brighter than the ones on the old origin. This is a compromise for people who prefer atmosphere and for those who prefer brighter lighting. The decision will be final, as this is an endless debate based on personal opinions about what ns should be about. Also, I don't want to get a public vs competitive debate going in my awesome topic, so just both stop there.
Now, I'd much rather hear about real balance issues, if any. I'm working closely with long time competitive players, but I'd also like to hear about gameplay issues from public communities. If you don't voice yourself, others will do it for you.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is that a contradiction? You don't want Public vs Competitive play discussed, but you want both types of players to comment on the level for the purpose of each play? You will get a debate/discussion whether you like it or not asking for both scenes and players to comment.
I will only say this once. Stop derailing this topic with irrelevant points. The feedback ( not debate ) should be about the map. If you don't have something to say about the map, then don't post. If you disagree with someone else point of view, get over it. It isn't for you to sort through the feedback and look for compromise, that is for the mapper to do himself.
If an Onos is walking and his hull would pass over the vent, he gets stopped and attached to the ladder. Very easy to reproduce, just walk into Biodome down the stairs on the right side. Also if he is really sloppy he can possibly fall into the vents too (without crouching).
Shrinking the vent entrance a couple units and moving the ladder to the other side should fix that up.
If I wasn't clear as to where this is at, here's a screenshot
<a href="http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs311&d=07042&f=biovents.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://xs311.xs.to/xs311/07042/biovents.jpg.xs.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /></a>
My only concern I can see is with the vents by the stairs leading into Biodome hive.
If an Onos is walking and his hull would pass over the vent, he gets stopped and attached to the ladder. Very easy to reproduce, just walk into Biodome down the stairs on the right side. Also if he is really sloppy he can possibly fall into the vents too (without crouching).
Shrinking the vent entrance a couple units and moving the ladder to the other side should fix that up.
If I wasn't clear as to where this is at, here's a screenshot
<a href="http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs311&d=07042&f=biovents.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://xs311.xs.to/xs311/07042/biovents.jpg.xs.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /></a>
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Good spot!