2nd Generation Technology -Marines
Karrd
Join Date: 2005-02-26 Member: 42555Members
Join Date: 2005-02-26 Member: 42555Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Gameplay Discussion</div>Read <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?s=4548825027348443648&showtopic=100087" target="_blank"><b>THIS</b></a> first, if you haven't already.
This topic is to discuss the concepts that are brought up in the other thread, how they could be implemented in gameplay, how they would effect gameplay, whether they would be a good idea or not etc.
I'm using a simple numbering system to reference ideas, so if you see 1A) I'm talking about idea 1A) in the other topic. I'm sure everyone should be smart enough to understand that.
For starters the ideas I put out earlier:
1A) I don't really see this as happening. It would effect gameplay way too much, and motion tracking serves most of the same functions. The only thing I could see being done along these lines would be to create an upgrade that would allow heavys to automatically decloak aliens near them, and I mean really close to them.
1B) I could actually see this one being used. Assuming you could make the armor directional like that it would mean a marine being attacked from behind would have a little more chance of surviving, but would be balanced out by making them more vulnerable to frontal attacks. It would have the effect of making aliens more likely to attack from the front, by a small amount. From a marines viewpoint this would be nice, particularly against fades, seeing as you could at least SEE the person killing you, rather than just suddenly dying from behind. I don't know enough about the engine, could something like this be implemented?
1C) This is an idea I really like, becuase it doesn't effect the combat and tactics but would have a large effect on the strategic game. By using these you could more easily secure your flanks when advancing or use it as a first line recon for defense. The tripwire idea I think would be nice becuase you could make it an upgrade that marines spawn with, that they could then use on vents and such they pass. And I didn't make this clear, but the idea is these would only be noisemakers, when activated all they would do would be to make a noise that everyone nearby would hear. After a tripwire is tripped it would disappear. And, they should be just visible enough that a sharp eyed alien can spot one if they aren't moving too fast. From a engine perspective, could these be done without overtaxing the servers? As to the idea of a motion sensor version, I was thinking something small enough that it could easily blend in with it's surroundings if placed smartly that would go off anytime an alien walked near it.
2A) The idea behind this is simple: a high skill, high damage weapon that you get one shot with before reloading. The large rifle idea would be the simplest to implement, I'd think. The DPE rocket would be cool and something not done before, the idea is you fire it then hit the fire button again when you want it to go off cuasing a conical explosion in front of it. I'd imagine though that it would be a bit trickier to implement. The Metal Storm gun would be great, a gun that would fire 200 or so bullets in a second or two, but I'm pretty sure that even the best servers would have issues if more than one of those was in play at once. I know people will immediately want to reject these as power weapons, but they aren't simply becuase they are <b>Single Shot</b> weapons, with a 3-5 second reload time. This means that these guns could only be used to support other marines, becuase a solo marine or even a group of these would be dead even against one skulk if that shot misses. And I'm sure that the alien players would soon learn to adapt to counter these guns. And I just noticed, I'm not trying to suggest that all three of these guns be used, I'm suggesting using only one of these.
2B) The snare lines ideas would be a simple realistic way to balance out fades. The way I see it being implemented would be a marine is issued a snare line pack, then walks to a wall clicks, then walks to another wall clicks etc. When a fade hits one of these lines it the player would be unable to move but still be able to attack. By pressing use they would be able to free themselves (with a completion bar so they can stop halfway through and restart) but when freeing themselves they can't attack. This would have to implemented in such a way that you couldn't script to automatically destroy it while blinking.
2C) The catches idea would also work pretty well in helping balance fades. It would be a cheap and simple way to prevent one fade from decemating a marine team so long as they stick together. There would have to be strict limits on how many could be placed though, otherwise marines would try to make the Entire map anti-fade. Also, by tying this to TFs you would decrease them being used offensively. The idea is these would be used to help marines hold a position, not to help them take one. Could someone give some feedback on how hard this would be to implement?
2D) The Barriers idea would be pretty cool in that it opens all sorts of tactical possibilities. You could use it to delay a hord of skulks, or to set a trap. By tying it to advanced TFs you would decrease it's early use, and by making it so only heavies could carry them you would decrease their offensive use. Also, they would require construction once placed, I was thinking about half as long as it takes to built a TF. That way if you had time you could use these to set up one hellishly effective defense or trap, but only if you had the time and res for it. I'm not sure how easy this would be to implement, if you designed the maps with points preset to accept them (and large open spaced being free to place) it would be easy, if you designed it to go anywhere I'd imagine it would be much more difficult. Feedback?
I guess that's it for now, I need to do some stuff, check back later.
This topic is to discuss the concepts that are brought up in the other thread, how they could be implemented in gameplay, how they would effect gameplay, whether they would be a good idea or not etc.
I'm using a simple numbering system to reference ideas, so if you see 1A) I'm talking about idea 1A) in the other topic. I'm sure everyone should be smart enough to understand that.
For starters the ideas I put out earlier:
1A) I don't really see this as happening. It would effect gameplay way too much, and motion tracking serves most of the same functions. The only thing I could see being done along these lines would be to create an upgrade that would allow heavys to automatically decloak aliens near them, and I mean really close to them.
1B) I could actually see this one being used. Assuming you could make the armor directional like that it would mean a marine being attacked from behind would have a little more chance of surviving, but would be balanced out by making them more vulnerable to frontal attacks. It would have the effect of making aliens more likely to attack from the front, by a small amount. From a marines viewpoint this would be nice, particularly against fades, seeing as you could at least SEE the person killing you, rather than just suddenly dying from behind. I don't know enough about the engine, could something like this be implemented?
1C) This is an idea I really like, becuase it doesn't effect the combat and tactics but would have a large effect on the strategic game. By using these you could more easily secure your flanks when advancing or use it as a first line recon for defense. The tripwire idea I think would be nice becuase you could make it an upgrade that marines spawn with, that they could then use on vents and such they pass. And I didn't make this clear, but the idea is these would only be noisemakers, when activated all they would do would be to make a noise that everyone nearby would hear. After a tripwire is tripped it would disappear. And, they should be just visible enough that a sharp eyed alien can spot one if they aren't moving too fast. From a engine perspective, could these be done without overtaxing the servers? As to the idea of a motion sensor version, I was thinking something small enough that it could easily blend in with it's surroundings if placed smartly that would go off anytime an alien walked near it.
2A) The idea behind this is simple: a high skill, high damage weapon that you get one shot with before reloading. The large rifle idea would be the simplest to implement, I'd think. The DPE rocket would be cool and something not done before, the idea is you fire it then hit the fire button again when you want it to go off cuasing a conical explosion in front of it. I'd imagine though that it would be a bit trickier to implement. The Metal Storm gun would be great, a gun that would fire 200 or so bullets in a second or two, but I'm pretty sure that even the best servers would have issues if more than one of those was in play at once. I know people will immediately want to reject these as power weapons, but they aren't simply becuase they are <b>Single Shot</b> weapons, with a 3-5 second reload time. This means that these guns could only be used to support other marines, becuase a solo marine or even a group of these would be dead even against one skulk if that shot misses. And I'm sure that the alien players would soon learn to adapt to counter these guns. And I just noticed, I'm not trying to suggest that all three of these guns be used, I'm suggesting using only one of these.
2B) The snare lines ideas would be a simple realistic way to balance out fades. The way I see it being implemented would be a marine is issued a snare line pack, then walks to a wall clicks, then walks to another wall clicks etc. When a fade hits one of these lines it the player would be unable to move but still be able to attack. By pressing use they would be able to free themselves (with a completion bar so they can stop halfway through and restart) but when freeing themselves they can't attack. This would have to implemented in such a way that you couldn't script to automatically destroy it while blinking.
2C) The catches idea would also work pretty well in helping balance fades. It would be a cheap and simple way to prevent one fade from decemating a marine team so long as they stick together. There would have to be strict limits on how many could be placed though, otherwise marines would try to make the Entire map anti-fade. Also, by tying this to TFs you would decrease them being used offensively. The idea is these would be used to help marines hold a position, not to help them take one. Could someone give some feedback on how hard this would be to implement?
2D) The Barriers idea would be pretty cool in that it opens all sorts of tactical possibilities. You could use it to delay a hord of skulks, or to set a trap. By tying it to advanced TFs you would decrease it's early use, and by making it so only heavies could carry them you would decrease their offensive use. Also, they would require construction once placed, I was thinking about half as long as it takes to built a TF. That way if you had time you could use these to set up one hellishly effective defense or trap, but only if you had the time and res for it. I'm not sure how easy this would be to implement, if you designed the maps with points preset to accept them (and large open spaced being free to place) it would be easy, if you designed it to go anywhere I'd imagine it would be much more difficult. Feedback?
I guess that's it for now, I need to do some stuff, check back later.
Comments
Edited in: Also, calling the gun ideas "Nuke weapon"s is a little excessive. Yes, a pair of them <b><i>Might</b></i> one-shot a fade, but after they took that one shot they would be useless for a few seconds. It would definitely be a trade-off, and it would Force anyone carrying one to have an escort. Part of what makes me like this idea is it would drastically help offset the problem of one Fade working solo stopping the entire marine team in it's tracks. It would force fades to actually coordinate and work with thier teammates, something not needed right now. I really got to go, more later.
Given the health and armour stats of the fade, it would be an instant kill against all lower lifeforms. Ok, so the shotgun can instantly kill them too, but you need to get in close with it to be effective (or reasonably close), with this, you could effectly use it as the UT99 Shock Rifle, whereby firing the secondary fire projects a ball of plasma, which you can then detonate (to great efficiency) with the primary fire of the weapon. Personally, I find the concept of the Shock Rifle absurd outdoors, but inside, it is nigh on the most powerful weapon to use, aside from a 6 rocket cluster shot, because you could basically not escape the explosion.
And as for the technology behind it, you could use a propelled shaped charge that fired either a shrapnel based, or phosphor based final deployment mixture, we have the technology at the moment to do it, just not the actual research into making it into a weapon. Basically, the rocket would be an airbursting shaped charge...
Basically, my main gripe would be the issure of a 1 hit kill, with a nigh on unavoidable explosion, able to kill a lower end lifeform from a distance. Given that people are able to snipe with the pistol with nigh on aimbotting accuracy, then the feasibility of a shot from a fair distance away with this rocket would be more than real. If there ever were a reason to stamp the "Overpowered, Sorry" mark on a weapon, this would be it. *Stamps*
A second point of concept 2A would be the high-powered dumbfire rifle. I personally am all for the idea of a large calibre rifle, firing higher powered rounds (hence my love affair with the grenade launcher), but this would need to have the same kind of limitations as the building destroyer that everyone knows, and loves. A slightly different idea would be something along the lines of the Penetrator in F.E.A.R.
Basically, the weapon fires large calibre (works out at something silly like .80) metal spikes, which you can actually pin people to the wall with. This kind of weapon would make little work of the tough carapace of the Onos, but would be subject to the same small clip size, and ballistics delay that the grenade launcher suffers from. Obviously, this would then pose a dilemma for the commander. Does he issue his troops with HMGs for taking out lots, or spike launchers for taking out heavy lifeforms, with longer reloads, much higher recoil, etc.
A comment on idea 2B. Given the physical size, and the speed that a fade would be moving during blink, any snare capable of stopping this movement would actually sever the fade cleaning. That kind of immovable object projecting the force over a snare wire scale would slice cleanly through the Fade, no matter how much carapace the Fade had. The only feasible snare you would use, remembering that Source probably would involve the physics of the immovable object and irresistable force, would be something capable of snaring the fade at normal run/sprint speeds, but would break at blink speeds. Obviously, this would the instantly render the snare useless, becuase most fades will be blinking all the time to get from one attack space to another, or to retreat. Snares just wouldn't work properly in the Source engine, not for something moving at such speeds, and on a physics based engine...
When I was thinking of the directionally pulsed rocket I didn't really consider that adding an area of effect would make it an easy one hit kill on lower lifeforms. Now that you point it out I have to agree that the idea simply wouldn't work from a balance perspective.
I have to say I like the idea of a slower (relatively speaking) projectile that could pin things down. It sounds like something that would make a great, but balanced anti-fade weapon.
And when I was thinking of the concept of snare I wasn't thinking of something taught enough to cut a fade in half. I was thinking more along the lines of something that would have a lot of give, much more like a spider web than a steel cable. I don't know enough about the source engine to know whether that would be practical though.
And I'm curious Lt_Patch, how well do you think the Metal Storm style gun would balance out? Say a 600 round clip with a 1200 rounds per second rate of fire and maybe a 4 second reload time? Assuming something like that wouldn't fry your average server.
High volume of fire = low accuracy, and low damage (this is a weapon to supress an area, not to shoot the end off of someone cigarette from a mile away...)
Basically, what that means is that while you're pummeling rounds in the direction of the enemy, unless you're right up close and personal, you won't be killing anything stupidly fast, but you will be spreading rounds at an alarming rate.
However, given the room supression, 600 rounds would be way too much. Given that amount of ammo, and the Source engine's capability for physics interaction, you'd pretty much redecorate an entire room in 1/2 a second. Andthing that isn't bolted to the level would end up attached to the wall behind it.
Personally, if you tried to introduce something like the Metal Storm system to NS, you'd need to modify the HMG to get the smiliar effect. More rounds, say a 200-250 round clip, lower the damage by about 40-60%, and decrease the accuracy to be accounting for the massive recoil this would give, on a full auto burst. Even with advanced recoil, you're not going to be able to control something that can spit its entire clip out in about 1-2 seconds.
On the subject of refire rates, and server load, refire should be around double that of the HMG, to keep the calculations down to a reasonable amount.
And remember, it's not the server that interprets physics collisions on the Source platform, it's the client PCs themselves. Just imagine what 600 physics calculations in 1/2 a second would do to a system already running at a high load because of the Source engine. You'd probably end up killing the client connection.
And with the "marine webs", they'd probably be implemented as a direct copy of the gorge webs, but marines placing them physically on the walls, much similar to the SLAM mines. Not too sure about that though, marines copying an idea from the enemies they're fighting. This is called Natural Selection, but the TSA are probably based off of the USMC, whom are known for their legendary "we're better than eveyone else" attitude. Wouldnt really fit into the lore very well, and I could see it being used more as an onos snare than anything else. Pin down 75 resources worth of alien, or 50 resources worth...
That said, I see how that would be completely impractical on the source engine. Still fun to think about though.
I'm curious as to what perception you have of ideas 2C and 2D? Could that be done on the source engine easily? And do you think people would accept it? As a strategist I love it's potentional to allow more strategic control of the battlefield, but I'm not sure how the average player would take it.
As a strategist myself, I'm in love with the idea of shaping terrain to suit my advantage. Better to fight someone on your terms, than on their own. Yes, I was the kind of person that happily built walls on C&C, and funnelled people through natural chokepoints on Total Annihilation. To which they then lost most of their army due to long range cannons <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> But that's just me...
However, something like this could be considered in a reweldable sense, where you could have certain map features that could be closed and opened, by the use of a welder. Obviously, vents and the like would be nigh on automatically welded shut, but these could be used to effectively block the passage, without stopping the natural flow of the game. Although, the idea of using a man-portable barricade is an attractive one, as you could make something like a double resource point more secure, by temporarily blocking access to one of the multiple entrances.
Also, the unit tactical uses would be insane. You could issue a turret factory out near a hive, and erect a barricade, allowing time for more marines to arrive, and to set up a siege position with little to no worries about a pincer attack. All you would need to do is just hold one area, instead of two...
For that reason, I'm not sure if a portable barricade would be welcomed, however, the idea of a static barrier, placed by the map makers would be better, because you could use them in a defensive only manner,and not in a siege offensive...
Of course, a lot of Frontiersman groups got eaten before reporting back: and I imagine the Kharaa would have tried their hand at a fair bit of adaptation too <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
I remember barricades seeping into a discussion regarding an early NS1 release, but a helluva lot of people were opposed to them. I do like the idea of <i>some</i> sort of technology designed to slow down incoming hostiles: whether a nanotechnological cloud or goop or placable mine or whatever, it'd be incredibly helpful if a rampaging Fade suddenly found themselves floundering helplessly <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> But I guess any potential barricades would be available earlier than that sort of thing due to their simplicity, eh?
Urgh. Bad memories of constant skulk/l. marine rushes... inexperienced teammates and obsessive rushers with nothing better to do... no... make it stop... <i>please</i>... let us live beyond the first three minutes!
*ahem*
Still, I <i>definitely</i> like the sound of a portable barricade: something the comm could give to a soldier and instruct them to deploy at a particular position, allowing a teammember to crouch behind it and spray fire at the encoming hordes...
That's also most of the reason for suggesting the smaller Catches automatically recycle after being damaged, becuase otherwise instead of mearly helping win an engagement they could help you win the whole game by shifting the map in your favor.
Ok, for Muzzzy, who obviously hasn't read any of the other posts, this thread is for the discussion of conceptual ideas, not necessarily things that would make it into NS2, but they do have to be plausible in the Source engine. Spawning various barricades to be placed in game by the players is very much feasible, just look at Source Forts, which does just that...
Anyway, back on topic, and staying with Source Forts for the moment, I personally think that the idea of a "Catcher" is fantastic, mainly due to the massive effect that having a ramp in Source Forts can give you an advantage, not only can you use them to attack, without having to worry about the enemy coming through the same route (unless someone takes it as an engineer class...), but you can also use opposing ramps (i.e, those that come from the enemy direction) to provide yourself with not only a quick escape route, but also some moderate degree of cover. Obviously, the ramp isn't facing the right way, so the player has just wandered into a trap, with either you, or your team mates dealing the killing blow.
On second thoughts, you could actually deploy a catcher, and sit behind it with some form of heavy weaponry. Not only would this provide a nice static defence, it would also prevent you from being attacked from behind, the easiest way of killing a stationary manned turret, like a turretted machine gun.
Idea 2B) Snare gun, shoot a bolt into the wall, shoot another across from it, and when something moving fast (eg: blinking fade, flying lerk?) hits it the bolts pop out and wrap around the creature, incapacitating it. Useless in a marine v. marine match, but awesome against aliens. The snare would case you to stumble, lose +movement and attacking for a time (maybe not umbra or acid rocket?) and slow your movement. Low speed creature wouldn't be able to trigger them, but couldn't directly walk past them. (Maybe skulks can run on them?)
Idea 2C) Good idea, make it like a large piece of sheet metal. It could be versitile, making walls and funnels, blocking off coridors or routing the enemy, etc. Maybe fairly weak, but could be stacked for a bit of strength?
Idea 2 D) Also decent, kinda like what I described for C, but, well, different.
-Sheepe
The snare gun shouldn't be able to slow down all life forms. In any case, it should NEVER slow down an onos.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well it should for the split second that it hits it, but otherwise, yeah, oni should be unaffected...
-Sheepe
Considering how a fade can be nearly vaporized by 3-4 marines with shotguns in a few seconds (CAN not will be) I think additional weaponry needs to be more simple and multipurpose. Perhaps some beefier shotguns or shotgun specific upgrades, i.e bigger ammunition and barrel.
As for the "Marine Web" idea, I like it. It seems like it would be a little too obvious a ripoff but it would be very suitable more for lerks and skulks than something as big as a fade or onos. Not to mention the issue of marines walking through it, I don't think just "Nanites" would cut it =P.
Barricades: Oooh man, I think that would be very neat and yet very difficult to make it useful and not overpowered. It would be nice to be able to take advantage of advanced physics to make barricades, but a portable wall, well it just does not seem like it would fit in a pretty fast paced game. Just not enough RTS in NS assuming it is somewhat similiar in NS2 it would not seem to work too well. Of course, I can only speculate what precisely it will be like so it may fit in, but it would seem more likely it would not. I definitely hear Lt_Patch on the walls thing, one of my favorites things about some of the classic RTS games is building a massive defense complex =D.
However just imagine any special forces unit you can think of, and try to imagine them lugging around a big wall through corridors. I can see them welding doors shut and other ways of blocking stuff off, but not possibly lugging around a wall on the back of a mechanized suit. That alone would make it even more difficult to fit in, if you had to tech up significantly to get to it.
Another important point is that walls inherently are a defensive tool, and if NS needs anything it is definitely not encouragement to turtle =P. I would definitely go for a way to slow down those fast aliens but walls just doesn't seem to be it. That is all I can really think about for these things yet, good to get some ideas out there anyways.
If this IS "natural selection", then the previous strain of weeker aliens would have died off, wouldnt they? Gotten bigger, stronger, faster?
And in reply to the idea that walls are inherently defensive and therefore would increase turtling: that is the reason why I proposed that they have a life of only a short life when deployed. If you tried to use them solely to turtle, you'd just waste a bunch of Res for an extra ten seconds of defense. That is why they would only be useful in defending agressive deployments. If used intellegently they could help someone to gain control of an area just long enough to reinforce it, but wouldn't add much to the long-term defense of an area.