Bhopping 2

ColeCole Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8392Members
Sorry, this will most likely incite riot, but I'm interested to know if bunny hopping will continue to play a role moving forward in NS2.

The forums are riddled with previous discussions about what bunny hopping is and what its means, but I don't care about that crap.

Simple yes, no, or maybe, else this post will probably be locked.

Comments

  • Jmmsbnd007Jmmsbnd007 Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9793Banned, Constellation
    edited January 2007
    I'm going to go ahead and pre-ruin your thread

    Games like Natural Selection, Science and Industry, Day of Defeat, CPMA, Warsow, etc are all incredibly fun games. What do they have in common? A skill-based movement system (especially CPMA and Warsow, where it's easy to gain a moderate speed increase but more difficult to fly so fast your gun disappears from your hands). In DoD, you can sprint-glidejump. NS and S&I have bunnyhopping. CS has aircontrol and (limited) bunnyhopping.
  • ColeCole Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8392Members
    Again, not what I'm looking for at all. I'm not interested in the debate. I'm not interested in any sort of opinions.

    I just want to know if its going to be there or not, and I'm sure many others do as well. I don't care what anyone likes or dislikes about it, etc etc. This has all been done and said before.

    Is it going to be there, or not. Thats it.
  • ScribblesScribbles Join Date: 2003-11-05 Member: 22323Members
    Bunny hopping and all other physics defying engine glitch "skillz" seriously kill game emersion. Am I the only one that still believes NS(2) is supposed to be about teamwork, and not indevidual skill?
  • VoXVoX Join Date: 2006-11-05 Member: 58403Members
    Even though bunny hopping, as well as other movement related skills, has the potential to ruin some of the immersion in a game I for one think bhopping in NS makes the game much less repetitive. When you want to get from point A to B in a game like CS you simply hold down your forward-button and turn your view in the right direction until you get to your destination. In NS however you have the ability to use bunny hopping, wall strafing and other techniques when you're on the move, which requires you to focus and plan ahead in which ways you can use the environment to your benefit.

    The removal of bunny hopping in CS pretty much killed that game for me, even though it made the game more immersing.
  • IsamilIsamil Join Date: 2003-11-25 Member: 23552Members, Constellation
    I highly doubt Flayra will be able to give you an answer on this when NS2 is at such an early stage.

    In the NS2 poll on the front page, I wrote "Do not remove bunnyhopping" for the comments question. I think that would be a good question for him to add if he ever does the poll again.
  • ssjyodassjyoda Join Date: 2002-03-05 Member: 274Members, Squad Five Blue
    so for a game to be about teamwork.. no individual skill? so, umm... hmm.. lets go then shoot all the babe ruthes out there, all the emitt smiths out there and say your killing the game for everyone, your not working as a team..

    come on.. individual skill is necessary, and the team takes advantage of that as a whole.
  • Router_BoxRouter_Box Join Date: 2004-09-07 Member: 31483Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    way to go guys, lets argue about it for 30 pages.
  • Voodo_HUNVoodo_HUN Join Date: 2006-11-29 Member: 58773Members
    well, bh was in the HL engine (you can bhop in the single player if i remember correctly), so i think the bh2 will be much like the hl2 bhop in single player, it would be hard work to get the movement stuff under hl2 engine to work like in hl1 engine
  • tigersmithtigersmith Join Date: 2004-11-11 Member: 32749Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Supporter
    <!--quoteo(post=1597202:date=Jan 10 2007, 02:35 PM:name=Jmmsbnd007)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jmmsbnd007 @ Jan 10 2007, 02:35 PM) [snapback]1597202[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    I'm going to go ahead and pre-ruin your thread

    Games like Natural Selection, Science and Industry, Day of Defeat, CPMA, Warsow, etc are all incredibly fun games. What do they have in common? A skill-based movement system (especially CPMA and Warsow, where it's easy to gain a moderate speed increase but more difficult to fly so fast your gun disappears from your hands). In DoD, you can sprint-glidejump. NS and S&I have bunnyhopping. CS has aircontrol and (limited) bunnyhopping.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    /agree this is very well said and explaned..thats one of the reasons why I play the game
  • waterbusterwaterbuster Join Date: 2006-12-17 Member: 59117Members
    Marines+bhopping = aliens needing to b-hop to just be able to catch up.

    Remove the mechanic, and we wont have to deal with it anymore. Its not a skill lol, its a exploitation of game mechanics.
  • enigmaenigma Join Date: 2004-09-11 Member: 31623Members
    oh wait it's not a skill?
  • waterbusterwaterbuster Join Date: 2006-12-17 Member: 59117Members
    It is easy, but then again others may never get it down.
  • enigmaenigma Join Date: 2004-09-11 Member: 31623Members
    others like you right?
  • ColeCole Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8392Members
    okay close the thread. i should have known better. anything involving bhopping attracts the failure patrol to swoop in and kick into action.
  • waterbusterwaterbuster Join Date: 2006-12-17 Member: 59117Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1598199:date=Jan 13 2007, 03:03 AM:name=enigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(enigma @ Jan 13 2007, 03:03 AM) [snapback]1598199[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    others like you right?
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    no?

    I just dont feel the game needs b-hopping. I can b-hop just fine, but the actual need to do it makes me confused.
  • RasulisRasulis Join Date: 2003-01-29 Member: 12910Members
    I have to agree it shouldn't be some thing marines should be able to do.

    The aliens advantage on marines is movement, and bunny hopping takes a good amount of this away. Nothing like seeing a marine back hopping as far as you forward jump almost.

    It should be a skill for aliens only since this is what they're specialized in. Marines have range; Bunny hopping is not some thing they should get too.
  • the_x5the_x5 the Xzianthian Join Date: 2004-03-02 Member: 27041Members, Constellation
    edited January 2007
    <!--quoteo(post=1597242:date=Jan 10 2007, 04:08 PM:name=Scribbles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Scribbles @ Jan 10 2007, 04:08 PM) [snapback]1597242[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    Bunny hopping and all other physics defying engine glitch "skillz" seriously kill game emersion. Am I the only one that still believes NS(2) is supposed to be about teamwork, and not indevidual skill?
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    No you are not alone. I've been about teamwork for a long time.

    feelings about NS

    Teamwork = <b><!--coloro:green--><span style="color:green"><!--/coloro-->yes<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>
    deadly when in squads, weak as solo

    Marines are ranged = <b><!--coloro:green--><span style="color:green"><!--/coloro-->yes<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>

    Aliens are mobile and melee = <b><!--coloro:green--><span style="color:green"><!--/coloro-->yes<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>


    For example I think Extralevels 3 (aka xmenu) shouldn't have the cybernetics upgrade for marines. Infact, I wish they'd give it under a different name as an upgade for aliens.
  • SwiftspearSwiftspear Custim tital Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1597242:date=Jan 10 2007, 04:08 PM:name=Scribbles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Scribbles @ Jan 10 2007, 04:08 PM) [snapback]1597242[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    Bunny hopping and all other physics defying engine glitch "skillz" seriously kill game emersion. Am I the only one that still believes NS(2) is supposed to be about teamwork, and not indevidual skill?
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I can name you FPS games that don't have any marked individual skill element, but you won't like any of them, and they really didn't sell well in the slightest. Pointing the mouse pointer at things and holding a button is a pretty weak "skill", to the point where CS and DoD both added all kinds of crazy gun kick rules to give the player something else to think about. I stopped being seriously immersed by NS as soon as I figured out the tech tree in detail, long before I understood what bunnyhopping is. Simply put it's impossible to build a game that immerses your average player indefinitely. The trick is to balance skillfully between the two so the immersion element lasts as long as possible and then seamlessly transfers into an addictive skill development process.

    This post isn't in any way saying "OMG WE NEED BHOPPING" but I want to point out very clearly that you're missing the point of playing competitive FPS games if you think skill is the enemy of immersion. There's no point at all in pitting one team against another if you don't intend to allow people to develop and wield skillfulness against each other. Multi player movie watching would be about what you'd be going for with that project.
  • TheMuffinManTheMuffinMan Join Date: 2002-12-20 Member: 11234Members, Constellation
    To be honest, i've never been a fan of bunny hopping in NS. But it's for different reasons that most posted on here.

    Movement is extremely important in games, and one of the biggest attractions of NS, to me, was the varied alien movement - leaping, flying, blinking, wall walking, etc etc. All great devices, all fit in with the game. Bunny hopping doesn't, and never has. I'm a big believer in the atmosphere of a game, so much so that i've always played with my gamma and brightness way, way down to get something extra out of the game - my biggest hope for NS2 is a more involved and detailed game which really sucks you in. The problem with bhopping is that it just doesn't fit in with the game. It looks complicated, ungainly and at times quite ridiculous.

    Bhopping in some games is brilliant, and adds to the game. SI is a great example. The game is rapid, 100 m/ph, in your face. Bunny hopping works as a movement system, same story in most deathmatch/frag based games involving bhopping. But as i've said, i've just never felt that it works in NS. I know it's pretty much classed as a feature now, but it doesn't fit in with the game and at times can completely ruin the atmosphere.

    From a balancing point of view, every trace of bhopping should be removed from the marines. The marines shouldn't get ANY advantage in movement terms until they get the JP. Aliens are fine, and it's my experience that the game is balanced with ultra-quick bhopping aliens. Assuming that this is carried on into NS2, then it's an important balancing feature. Remove bhopping, but in it's place build another more intuitive movement system which fits in with the theme of the game. That idea warrants a thread of its own, but i'm sure the devs can think of something.

    On the topic of 'individual skill vs teamwork', i don't think that the argument really holds much water. You can change the marines around until they're unable to kill any aliens alone, and hence must travel in groups. That's got nothing to do with toning down individual skill though. The cream will still rise to the top, so to speak. There are ways to make the game easier for new players, but at the top of the chain you'll still find the same players. Teamwork is much needed in NS, but individual skill doesn't need to be sacrificed to achieve a good level of teamwork.
  • Voodo_HUNVoodo_HUN Join Date: 2006-11-29 Member: 58773Members
    ns need bhopping otherwise how do you run away with gorgie?
  • GreyFlcnGreyFlcn Join Date: 2006-12-19 Member: 59134Members, Constellation
    edited January 2007
    <!--quoteo(post=1598391:date=Jan 13 2007, 08:40 PM:name=1stdayplaying)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(1stdayplaying @ Jan 13 2007, 08:40 PM) [snapback]1598391[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    removing it would be counter-intuitive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Uhm... whats so intuative about "the shortest distance between two points is *not* a straight line" ?
  • SpurtySpurty Join Date: 2002-11-16 Member: 8944Members, Constellation
    edited January 2007
    Add a weight mechanism. Light rines can jump, Jetpackers can hop (small burst+fly), heavies can't at all. Same rock/paper/scissors for aliens.

    and Onos hopping, lollerskates. Perhaps if its zero grav.

    If we are going to fix the HL engine, lets get rid of wall (friction accel) run!!
  • Voodo_HUNVoodo_HUN Join Date: 2006-11-29 Member: 58773Members
    if HA s couldnt jump what would they do if they are stucked "comm pls spend 15 res to get us all back to base coz im stucked"
  • waterbusterwaterbuster Join Date: 2006-12-17 Member: 59117Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1598305:date=Jan 13 2007, 11:22 AM:name=TheMuffinMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TheMuffinMan @ Jan 13 2007, 11:22 AM) [snapback]1598305[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->

    From a balancing point of view, every trace of bhopping should be removed from the marines. The marines shouldn't get ANY advantage in movement terms until they get the JP. Aliens are fine, and it's my experience that the game is balanced with ultra-quick bhopping aliens. Assuming that this is carried on into NS2, then it's an important balancing feature. Remove bhopping, but in it's place build another more intuitive movement system which fits in with the theme of the game. That idea warrants a thread of its own, but i'm sure the devs can think of something.

    On the topic of 'individual skill vs teamwork', i don't think that the argument really holds much water. You can change the marines around until they're unable to kill any aliens alone, and hence must travel in groups. That's got nothing to do with toning down individual skill though. The cream will still rise to the top, so to speak. There are ways to make the game easier for new players, but at the top of the chain you'll still find the same players. Teamwork is much needed in NS, but individual skill doesn't need to be sacrificed to achieve a good level of teamwork.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    This man knows what he is talking about.
  • enigmaenigma Join Date: 2004-09-11 Member: 31623Members
  • digzdigz be still, maggot Join Date: 2002-05-07 Member: 588Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
    <b>If and when</b> Flayra decides to divulge this kind of information regarding NS2 you'll have your answer. Or you'll have your answer when NS2 is finished and released. Until then this thread and others like it will get locked, as this subject has been previously discussed for both NS and in future versions of the NS universe.
This discussion has been closed.