A Brief Guide To Armor In NS
ZiGGY
Join Date: 2003-01-19 Member: 12479Members
Join Date: 2003-01-19 Member: 12479Members
Armor in NS isnt very intuitive, heres some basic info to set you straight. <a href="http://nsplayer.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=380&st=0" target="_blank">Link</a>
If you cba to click the link Ill just paste it here <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
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Just thought Id post about this here seeing as I dont know any other ns fansites <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
I think for most people, atleast initially, the ns armour system is very deceptive and many players dont really see the proper information infront of them, even though its right there. So for those of you who dont know, a quick thread to give you the info.
<b>One Point of Armour Is __NOT__ One Point of Health</b>
Infact armour is always <i>atleast</i> worth <b>2</b> dmg/armour point,
<i><b>for the marines</i></b> armour is <b>always</b> worth 2dmg/point
(so a light marine with 0 armour starts with 100hp +30armour(60dmg) = 160dmg total so to kill a light marine in 1 hit at armour one you need to do atleast 160dmg (focus fade swipe for example))
<i><b>for the aliens</i></b> the value of the armour is dependent on the <b>number of operational hives</b>
at 1 hive armour is worth <b>2</b>dmg/point
at 2 hive, <b>2.5</b>dmg/point
at 3 hive, <b>3</b>dmg/point
(so a hive 3 fade with carapace 300hp/250(*3)armour has an effective 1050 health [7shots against a lvl 0 sg], compared to a 1 hive fade 300/150(*2) which takes 4 shots to kill with a lvl 0 sg)
<b>But I lose health when I get shot too right, so wont I run out of health before armour?</b>
The dmg to health-armour is known as the <i>absorption ratio</i>
<i>for the marines this value is 70% to armour for light armour/jet packs and 95% for heavy armour</i>, so every 10 dmg hit to a light armour, (eg a parasite) sends 3 to health and 7 to armour.
<i>for the aliens</i> this value is again dependent on the number of functioning hives, <i>70% @ 1 hive, 80% @ 2 hive, 90% @ 3 hives</i>
<b>But What About Decimal Points?</b>
This is a very important point to note, the dmg displayed is rounded (the actual value is stored to a couple of dp)
An example of this are the parasite, bite, bite kills at the start of games.
[0 hits] Marine: 100hp / 30Armour
[1 hit, parasite 10dmg] Marine: 97hp / 26Armour {dmg to health = 30%*10 = 3, dmg to armour = 70%*10 = 7, armour lost = 7/2 =3.5 ~4armour lost}
[2 hit, bite 75dmg] Marine: 74hp / 0Armour {dmg to health: .3*75 = 22.5+3, dmg to armour: .7*75 = 52.5+7))
[3 hit, bite 75dmg] Dead.
Everybody already knew that right? Well we see two other useful pieces of information, if the marine gets healed after he is parasited once he has to be hit 3 times again to be killed; but also if the marine is parasited twice then even if he has 100 hp again and is bit twice he will die :/
Now I claim no accuracy to that calculation(the computer works it out weird) its just an example of how you can use this knowledge to figure out combos and hits to kill values fairly accurately [definately 10% margin or less]
A few dmg values to help you figure out some for yourself(all values taken from balance.txt in the ns directory, also a note on rof, some servers just seem to shoot faster than others):
<b>Marine Weapons Are Effected By Weapon Upgrades +10%dmg of basedmg per level (130%dmg at lvl 3)</b> some weapons, such as mines, knives (and I believe handgrenades) are not effected by the weapon bonus.
Knife 30dmg/slash (20/13 slashes/second)
LMG 10dmg/shot (clip: 50, 10shots/second)
Pistol 20dmg/shot (clip:10, 5shots/second<capped maximum>)
Shotgun 17dmg/pellet 10pellets/Shot (Clip: 8, (10/13 approximately 3/4)shots/second)
HMG 20dmg/shot (clip: 125, 10shots/second)
Handgrenade 80dmg/grenade (0.75s detonation time, max 2, 5greandes(?)/second)
Grenade Launcher 125dmg(double vs structures)/grenade (2s detonation time, clip: 4, (5/6)grenades/second)
Turre(n)t 10dmg/hit (requires a functioning turret factory within range to operate, 10/7 shots/second)
Mines 125dmg/hit (pack: 4 mines, cannont be placed in close proximity to you, explode to projectiles(20hp) or very close enemies)
Electrify 20dmg/hit (hits up to 2 targets at once, dont know the rof)
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<i>Alien primary weapons with focus lvl 1/2/3 do +33%/+66%/+100% more dmg +50%/+100%/+150% slower respectively</i>
Parasite 10dmg/shot (30% energy cost, 2parasites/second)
Spit 30dmg/shot (12% energy cost, 1.25spits/second)
Bite(skulk) 75dmg/shot (5% energy cost, 1.25bites/second)
Bite2gun(lerk) 60dmg/shot (5% energy cost, 25/16(about 1.5) bites/second)
Spore 7dmg/hit (35% energy cost, lasts 6 seconds, spores hit 2times a second, heavy armour immune, can be fired every 2 seconds, doesnt stack)
Swipe(Fade) 80dmg/hit (6% energy cost, (1 and 1/19)swipes/second)
Claws(Onos) 90dmg(double vs structues)/hit (7% energy cost, (1 and 1/9)hits/second)
Offence Chamber Spike 20dmg/hit (I dont know its rof)
Leap/Charge (I aint touching it with a 10ft pole)
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And the hp/armours (these are just off of the top of my head so they may be wrong)
Light Armour/Jetpack 100hp 30/50/70/90 armour(lv0-3)
Heavy Armour 100hp 200/230/260/290 armour(lv0-3)
Gestate 200/150
Skulk 70/10, carapace3 70/30
Gorge 150/70, carapace3 150/120
Lerk 125/30, carapace3 125/60
Fade 300/150, carapace3 300/250
Onos 700/600, carapace3 700/950
Hive 7000
Res Tower(alien) 2500
Movement Chamber 1000
Sensory Chamber 800
Defense Chamber 1200
Offense Chamber 1000
Command Chair 10000
Res Tower(marine) 6000
Infantry Portal 2500
Armoury 2400
Advanced Armoury 4000
Observatory 1700
Arms Lab 2200
Phasegate 3000
Prototype Lab 4000
Turret Factory 3000
Turret 1300
Siege Turret 2000
<b> Innate regen and regen/heals </b>
Alien units get an innate regen of 2%/tick (I believe it has a minimum regen cap of 2hp/tick though)
The Defense Upgrade 'Regen' provides 3%hp/tick regen per lvl up to 9% at lvl 3, this doesnt stack in combat(is there innate regen in combat?) and I havent tried it in vanilla ns.
The Hive Heals 15%hp/tick.
Healspray heals for 4%hp+13hp (I think)/heal on units and 65/heal on structures
Metabolize heals for 20hp/use
Defense chambers heal nearby aliens (and structures) up to 3 at once for 10hp/tick.
<i>Healing into Armour</i> You heal into armour at the SAME RATE that you do into health, though you have to be at full health to start healing armour (according to Puzl armour heal rate should be modified, it isnt) and as armour counts as multiples of normal health this can provide very strong healing and great dmg absorbtion in skilled hands.
And if youre feeling a little crazy heres some other info for the sheer hell of it:
<b>Research Times and Costs</b>
<Arms Lab>
Armour 1/2/3, 60/90/120 seconds, 20/30/40 res
Weapons 1/2/3, 60/90/120 seconds, 20/30/40 res
Catalyst Packs, 40 seconds, 20 res
<Observatory>
Phase Tech, 45 seconds, 15 res
Motion Tracking, 100 seconds, 35 res
B(e)acon, 3seconds, 15 res
<Armoury>
Handgrenades, 45seconds, 10 res
Advanced Armoury, 160seconds, 30 res
<Prototype Lab>
Jetpacks, 60 seconds, 35 res
Heavy Armour, 110 seconds, 40 res
<Turret Factory>
Advanced Turret Factory, 15seconds, 15 res
Electrify, 30 seconds, 30 res
<Res Tower>
Electrify, 30seconds, 30 res
I had intended to write more, this will do for now I guess, just somewhere easy to store this info for me, plz dont delete it :< (edit: added some stuff, corrected a couple of display f-ups ;s
If you cba to click the link Ill just paste it here <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
--------------
Just thought Id post about this here seeing as I dont know any other ns fansites <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
I think for most people, atleast initially, the ns armour system is very deceptive and many players dont really see the proper information infront of them, even though its right there. So for those of you who dont know, a quick thread to give you the info.
<b>One Point of Armour Is __NOT__ One Point of Health</b>
Infact armour is always <i>atleast</i> worth <b>2</b> dmg/armour point,
<i><b>for the marines</i></b> armour is <b>always</b> worth 2dmg/point
(so a light marine with 0 armour starts with 100hp +30armour(60dmg) = 160dmg total so to kill a light marine in 1 hit at armour one you need to do atleast 160dmg (focus fade swipe for example))
<i><b>for the aliens</i></b> the value of the armour is dependent on the <b>number of operational hives</b>
at 1 hive armour is worth <b>2</b>dmg/point
at 2 hive, <b>2.5</b>dmg/point
at 3 hive, <b>3</b>dmg/point
(so a hive 3 fade with carapace 300hp/250(*3)armour has an effective 1050 health [7shots against a lvl 0 sg], compared to a 1 hive fade 300/150(*2) which takes 4 shots to kill with a lvl 0 sg)
<b>But I lose health when I get shot too right, so wont I run out of health before armour?</b>
The dmg to health-armour is known as the <i>absorption ratio</i>
<i>for the marines this value is 70% to armour for light armour/jet packs and 95% for heavy armour</i>, so every 10 dmg hit to a light armour, (eg a parasite) sends 3 to health and 7 to armour.
<i>for the aliens</i> this value is again dependent on the number of functioning hives, <i>70% @ 1 hive, 80% @ 2 hive, 90% @ 3 hives</i>
<b>But What About Decimal Points?</b>
This is a very important point to note, the dmg displayed is rounded (the actual value is stored to a couple of dp)
An example of this are the parasite, bite, bite kills at the start of games.
[0 hits] Marine: 100hp / 30Armour
[1 hit, parasite 10dmg] Marine: 97hp / 26Armour {dmg to health = 30%*10 = 3, dmg to armour = 70%*10 = 7, armour lost = 7/2 =3.5 ~4armour lost}
[2 hit, bite 75dmg] Marine: 74hp / 0Armour {dmg to health: .3*75 = 22.5+3, dmg to armour: .7*75 = 52.5+7))
[3 hit, bite 75dmg] Dead.
Everybody already knew that right? Well we see two other useful pieces of information, if the marine gets healed after he is parasited once he has to be hit 3 times again to be killed; but also if the marine is parasited twice then even if he has 100 hp again and is bit twice he will die :/
Now I claim no accuracy to that calculation(the computer works it out weird) its just an example of how you can use this knowledge to figure out combos and hits to kill values fairly accurately [definately 10% margin or less]
A few dmg values to help you figure out some for yourself(all values taken from balance.txt in the ns directory, also a note on rof, some servers just seem to shoot faster than others):
<b>Marine Weapons Are Effected By Weapon Upgrades +10%dmg of basedmg per level (130%dmg at lvl 3)</b> some weapons, such as mines, knives (and I believe handgrenades) are not effected by the weapon bonus.
Knife 30dmg/slash (20/13 slashes/second)
LMG 10dmg/shot (clip: 50, 10shots/second)
Pistol 20dmg/shot (clip:10, 5shots/second<capped maximum>)
Shotgun 17dmg/pellet 10pellets/Shot (Clip: 8, (10/13 approximately 3/4)shots/second)
HMG 20dmg/shot (clip: 125, 10shots/second)
Handgrenade 80dmg/grenade (0.75s detonation time, max 2, 5greandes(?)/second)
Grenade Launcher 125dmg(double vs structures)/grenade (2s detonation time, clip: 4, (5/6)grenades/second)
Turre(n)t 10dmg/hit (requires a functioning turret factory within range to operate, 10/7 shots/second)
Mines 125dmg/hit (pack: 4 mines, cannont be placed in close proximity to you, explode to projectiles(20hp) or very close enemies)
Electrify 20dmg/hit (hits up to 2 targets at once, dont know the rof)
--------
<i>Alien primary weapons with focus lvl 1/2/3 do +33%/+66%/+100% more dmg +50%/+100%/+150% slower respectively</i>
Parasite 10dmg/shot (30% energy cost, 2parasites/second)
Spit 30dmg/shot (12% energy cost, 1.25spits/second)
Bite(skulk) 75dmg/shot (5% energy cost, 1.25bites/second)
Bite2gun(lerk) 60dmg/shot (5% energy cost, 25/16(about 1.5) bites/second)
Spore 7dmg/hit (35% energy cost, lasts 6 seconds, spores hit 2times a second, heavy armour immune, can be fired every 2 seconds, doesnt stack)
Swipe(Fade) 80dmg/hit (6% energy cost, (1 and 1/19)swipes/second)
Claws(Onos) 90dmg(double vs structues)/hit (7% energy cost, (1 and 1/9)hits/second)
Offence Chamber Spike 20dmg/hit (I dont know its rof)
Leap/Charge (I aint touching it with a 10ft pole)
-----
And the hp/armours (these are just off of the top of my head so they may be wrong)
Light Armour/Jetpack 100hp 30/50/70/90 armour(lv0-3)
Heavy Armour 100hp 200/230/260/290 armour(lv0-3)
Gestate 200/150
Skulk 70/10, carapace3 70/30
Gorge 150/70, carapace3 150/120
Lerk 125/30, carapace3 125/60
Fade 300/150, carapace3 300/250
Onos 700/600, carapace3 700/950
Hive 7000
Res Tower(alien) 2500
Movement Chamber 1000
Sensory Chamber 800
Defense Chamber 1200
Offense Chamber 1000
Command Chair 10000
Res Tower(marine) 6000
Infantry Portal 2500
Armoury 2400
Advanced Armoury 4000
Observatory 1700
Arms Lab 2200
Phasegate 3000
Prototype Lab 4000
Turret Factory 3000
Turret 1300
Siege Turret 2000
<b> Innate regen and regen/heals </b>
Alien units get an innate regen of 2%/tick (I believe it has a minimum regen cap of 2hp/tick though)
The Defense Upgrade 'Regen' provides 3%hp/tick regen per lvl up to 9% at lvl 3, this doesnt stack in combat(is there innate regen in combat?) and I havent tried it in vanilla ns.
The Hive Heals 15%hp/tick.
Healspray heals for 4%hp+13hp (I think)/heal on units and 65/heal on structures
Metabolize heals for 20hp/use
Defense chambers heal nearby aliens (and structures) up to 3 at once for 10hp/tick.
<i>Healing into Armour</i> You heal into armour at the SAME RATE that you do into health, though you have to be at full health to start healing armour (according to Puzl armour heal rate should be modified, it isnt) and as armour counts as multiples of normal health this can provide very strong healing and great dmg absorbtion in skilled hands.
And if youre feeling a little crazy heres some other info for the sheer hell of it:
<b>Research Times and Costs</b>
<Arms Lab>
Armour 1/2/3, 60/90/120 seconds, 20/30/40 res
Weapons 1/2/3, 60/90/120 seconds, 20/30/40 res
Catalyst Packs, 40 seconds, 20 res
<Observatory>
Phase Tech, 45 seconds, 15 res
Motion Tracking, 100 seconds, 35 res
B(e)acon, 3seconds, 15 res
<Armoury>
Handgrenades, 45seconds, 10 res
Advanced Armoury, 160seconds, 30 res
<Prototype Lab>
Jetpacks, 60 seconds, 35 res
Heavy Armour, 110 seconds, 40 res
<Turret Factory>
Advanced Turret Factory, 15seconds, 15 res
Electrify, 30 seconds, 30 res
<Res Tower>
Electrify, 30seconds, 30 res
I had intended to write more, this will do for now I guess, just somewhere easy to store this info for me, plz dont delete it :< (edit: added some stuff, corrected a couple of display f-ups ;s
Comments
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All aliens, unless they have regeneration, have an innate regeneration of 2% of maximum health per second, and heals at least 1 point of health or armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
2%, or 1%? If so, then level 1 regeneration is actually weaker than innate regen.
Is the manaul correct, <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/comm_manual/basic/alienUpgrades.htm" target="_blank">click</a>.
2%, or 1%? If so, then level 1 regeneration is actually weaker than innate regen.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well I aint played NS in like a year <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> but at the time regen didnt stack in combat, if thats the case in classic then regen1 is still stronger but I dont know if it stacks in classic.
(also sorry for the late reply been in scotland yarrr!)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Innate regen does occur in combat. It doesn't stack with the regen upgrade (in classic or combat). Innate regen and the upgrade are 1 tick every 2 seconds, while the hive does 1 tick per second<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So apprantly it doesnt stack in classic either (but aside from that and the times which I wouldnt be able to test accurately) everything else in that section should be correct <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Weapon FPS also a pain in the ###### to test well beyond my techincal capacity, fun link though would be nice to know how Catalysts effect ROF and if there are any derivable formula for significant rounding bonuses and dmg issues <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> But mainly I just tagged them in for people to get general ideas on kill time, only testing them for a few minutes to see if they were even remotely accurate <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> Still that being said they can still make reasonable guidelines for planning purposes
Innate regen is "per tick" using the same ticks as the regen upgrade. I've watched my health slowly rise often enough to be sure of this.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
According to the manaul(again) <!--QuoteBegin-Regeneration Upgrade+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Regeneration Upgrade)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Regenerates alien's health a percentage per 2 seconds<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->. That's the regeneration upgrade, so it says every 2 seconds (and it does appear to heal slower than innate regen).
<!--QuoteBegin-Innate Regen Info+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Innate Regen Info)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->All aliens, unless they have regeneration, have an innate regeneration of 2% of maximum health <b>per second</b>, and heals at least 1 point of health or armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Innate regen info.
Also, Ziggy <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>But I lose health when I get shot too right, so wont I run out of health before armour?</b>
The dmg to health-armour is known as the absorption ratio
for the aliens <b>this value is again dependent on the number of functioning hives</b>, 70% @ 1 hive, 80% @ 2 hive, 90% @ 3 hives<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That isn't correct(according to the manaul).
The manaul states that Carapace increases the absorption rate by 10% per level in <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Carapace
Increases total armor for an alien. Each extra hive increases the absorption of the armor by 10%.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I did hear someone say that the hive doesn't increase the absorption rate, so I think this is correct(about carapace increasing absorption).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Carapace
Increases total armor for an alien. <b>Each extra hive</b> increases the absorption of the armor by 10%.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Though I'm not sure why that's mentioned there.
I also tested carapace and hives for armor damage absorption, and they supported what Ziggy wrote.
Err...
Though I'm not sure why that's mentioned there.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would be because the manual was written long before the big changes to carapace and armour (to reduce carapace dependancy) in a patch long ago <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
The manual really isnt that great of a source of information
Perhaps you misread the quote though; it agrees with your information.
Also,<!--quoteo(post=1566628:date=Sep 17 2006, 05:14 PM:name=ZiGGY)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ZiGGY @ Sep 17 2006, 05:14 PM) [snapback]1566628[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Weapon FPS also a pain in the ###### to test well beyond my techincal capacity, fun link though would be nice to know how Catalysts effect ROF and if there are any derivable formula for significant rounding bonuses and dmg issues <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> But mainly I just tagged them in for people to get general ideas on kill time, only testing them for a few minutes to see if they were even remotely accurate <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> Still that being said they can still make reasonable guidelines for planning purposes<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is actually quite easy to time the rates of attack using scripts, which is what I did.
Also, I definitely do not agree that those attack rate values are remotely reasonable for planning purposes. Again, most are off by a factor of 2, so they are extremely misleading.
NECRO EDIT: oh man i need glasses lol
As far as I can tell in 3.2 b1 Alien armour now has a constant value of 2 damage/per, alien absorbtion rate is fixed at 70%
IF these changes stay in (and I cant see why not) when the non-beta is released I will change the thread. But its still worth knowing that armour isnt 1 dmg anyway so I shall keep the thread here <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
edit: also defense chambers heal players for 10hp +1% now :o
you can't see why not? maybe because it's a terrible idea and that's why no ones playing beta1
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then you're probably playing a different beta1 then me. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
At least 2 servers are (almost) full every time I look at the server list. Then there are still many servers with a few players.