I know R4K has an effect because whenever I join a team, their chance of loosing is significantly increased. Permagorging is the only solution to that, and its real boring nowadays because unless you switch classes to get R4K res then you end up waiting forever while it drips in just so you can build a chamber and continue the cycle of waiting. And unlike the old days, gorging is a thankless job.
I much prefer the old res system. Its only significant draw back was that your gorge had to know what he was doing, but that was Ok, because the marine commander was similarly required to know what he was doing. Commander and permagorge had very similar roles in those days.
I'm not going to bother trying to convince you further, since you have your heart set on keeping it and I doubt the game will ever actually be fun to me ever again anyways.
<!--quoteo(post=1575006:date=Nov 8 2006, 11:37 PM:name=Detheron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Detheron @ Nov 8 2006, 11:37 PM) [snapback]1575006[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> RFK isn't bad for the current NS game, in fact, it is needed. What we are trying to say is that we would like to see RFK scrapped from NS 2 (not NS1, NS2) with a superior Resource Distribution System being put in place to compensate.
People trash talk CS all the time, but few actually realized how close we actually are to being another CS clone. RFK rewards a deathmatch/rambo style of gameplay instead of strategic teamplay, and such concept is not something the entire player base feels comfortable with.
For the last time, I'm not talking about NS 1 here. I'm not asking to see it removed from NS 1. I'm asking to receive a system in NS2 where RFK won't be needed - or present. Is that really a radical concept? You are avoiding the subject. They said it not once, not twice, but three times that your reward is that you are alive and your enemy isnt. In fact, you read it every time. Why are you taking what other people say to an extreme just to ridicularize them, instead of making an intelligent post about why you feel that systems in a team-based game which reward players individually are good for the future of NS and should be implemented in NS2? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How is NS even remotely close to being "another CS clone"...? How does RFK reward a "rambo style of gameplay" when it only rewards individuals on aliens (who affect the team when they spend their res anyways)?
And I'm ridiculing people how...? If someone tries to make an argument, then they should know that they will eventually have to defend it... Seriously, you try to say that killing the guy is enough reward as a logical justification to removing R4K. Listen to yourself.
Why <i>aren't</i> individual rewards good in a team-based game?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I know R4K has an effect because whenever I join a team, their chance of loosing is significantly increased.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why is that a result of R4K?
Wait wait wait wait. The only change I think should happen to RFK is to make it affect nearby players like in combat.
Who is being "hurt" by rfk here? Joe Blow the alien who hasn't got a kill yet? Or Bob Dylan the marine who's died 10 times before the second hive went up?
I'm not a 50-1 fade. I pub exclusively. When I'm gorging to put up the second hive, I don't care that Jimmy is getting more res than me. Why? Because he's killing all the marines that I likely couldn't.
When I'm a marine and the same skulk that killed me 10 times is now a fade destroying our base, should I blame the rfk for the bad luck?
Don't look at rewarding the skilled players lightly. It's rather selfish. "OMG CLANNER HAS MORE RES THAN ME" is absolutely silly. You should acknowledge the fact that he is getting kills that the rest of your team isn't. Stop worrying about the K:D ratio and notice how much easier it is right now to keep that second hive up.
He's the <i>tank.</i> He'll very much appreciate that you helped him win by putting up that hive, those rts (because RFK alone won't buy a shiny new fade when the old one gets scratched) or by healing him. The marines are gunning for him. Use him as bait and try to get some cleanup kills. Stop worrying about your K:D ratio and stop worrying about him being at the top of the scoreboard while you're at the bottom. Go kill some marine rts or parasite a ninja.
If your marine team is being destroyed by that fade, chances are, you aren't killing their rts or hives anyway. Your team is failing to work together and communicate to compensate for your shortcomings. The RFK has nothing to do with you losing.
RFK isn't rewarding him. <!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->It's helping him, help you.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> He dies as a fade, and has no res to back up that second fade, I sure hope you can take his place.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why is that a result of R4K?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> My entire team is punished for my lack of FPS skill. In 1.04, the worst I could do was have no effect at all on the outcome of the game. With R4K, every time I die the other team gets a couple of res. Thanks to R4K, I'm a walking liability. Which, aside from the game not really being any fun for me anymore, is a primary motivator for me to not play. Why should I ruin it for everybody else by joining their team and feeding the enemy res?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't look at rewarding the skilled players lightly. It's rather selfish. "OMG CLANNER HAS MORE RES THAN ME" is absolutely silly. You should acknowledge the fact that he is getting kills that the rest of your team isn't. Stop worrying about the K:D ratio and notice how much easier it is right now to keep that second hive up.
He's the tank. He'll very much appreciate that you helped him win by putting up that hive, those rts (because RFK alone won't buy a shiny new fade when the old one gets scratched) or by healing him. The marines are gunning for him. Use him as bait and try to get some cleanup kills. Stop worrying about your K:D ratio and stop worrying about him being at the top of the scoreboard while you're at the bottom. Go kill some marine rts or parasite a ninja.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't give a damn about K:D ratio. Aside from needing to mute people, or find out what lifeform they are, I never bother to look at the scoreboard. Never did. Hell, IIRC the scoreboard didn't used to show a kill count. There was a time when the devs said it never would, just like they said there'd never be hand grenades.
I never get a chance to put up a second hive. Someone who's a good skulk put the time in to get the R4K and drop it long before I've gotten near enough through seepage. Biting RTs is a waste of time. Early game a rambo or two is always dispatched to stop me before I can finish, mid-late game theres f'ing elec.
<!--quoteo(post=1575021:date=Nov 9 2006, 01:15 AM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Nov 9 2006, 01:15 AM) [snapback]1575021[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> My entire team is punished for my lack of FPS skill. In 1.04, the worst I could do was have no effect at all on the outcome of the game. With R4K, every time I die the other team gets a couple of res. Thanks to R4K, I'm a walking liability. Which, aside from the game not really being any fun for me anymore, is a primary motivator for me to not play. Why should I ruin it for everybody else by joining their team and feeding the enemy res? I don't give a damn about K:D ratio. Aside from needing to mute people, or find out what lifeform they are, I never bother to look at the scoreboard. Never did. Hell, IIRC the scoreboard didn't used to show a kill count.
I never get a chance to put up a second hive. Someone who's a good skulk put the time in to get the R4K and drop it long before I've gotten near enough through seepage. Biting RTs is a waste of time. Early game a rambo or two is always dispatched to stop me before I can finish, mid-late game theres f'ing elec. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First post for a long time, and youre the reason for it.
Look, ns didn't become skill-oriented just because of rfk. If you're so bad that all you do is feed people res and have absolutely no actual skill to contribute to the team, perhaps you should try improving your skills. People aren't born good at games, you will improve as you play and learn from your mistakes. Lower your sensitivity, aim, correct your marine/skulk movements, learn, improvise. It's all part of the fun.
Next, it's obvious that you have no idea how the game is played now. Even if you are so bad at the game, you could still contribute to the team as alien and work as a team. Be a gorge, drop chambers, or rt's. Yeah, not important, right? Wrong. Stick around, provide healing for your skulks and fades and lerks. This is absolutely essential, I'm the type of player who does nothing but res ###### and get higher lifeforms, and gorges help me out a LOT. Spit at marines from a distance to weaken their armor, make them shoot you and bait them for your skulk buddies. You don't need to be good to do it, it doesn't take long to learn how to walk in front of a marine and spit once or twice, then run away once he starts shooting you and let your teammates do the rest.
Oh, and nobody electrifies RT's anymore. Waste of res, so if you want to go around biting down rt's late game then yo ucan do it all you want. You'll find a lot of skulks might just skip those rt's though because frankly, it's boring. But if you want to help out your team, there's plenty of opportunities to do so, and biting down rt's helps a lot and is one of them. Usually late game marines are too preoccupied taking down hives and higher lifeforms and whatnot, so you most likely will get that RT down.
Oh and this is bugging me in the original post. Macros do not improve marine speed, except for wiggle walking which is rarely used because other methods that require absolutely no script or macro (just mouse movement coordinated with keyboard movement) are just as good if you're good at it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Look, ns didn't become skill-oriented just because of rfk. If you're so bad that all you do is feed people res and have absolutely no actual skill to contribute to the team, perhaps you should try improving your skills<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Holy skulk dude!? Really? I never thought of that! Seriously. I used to play this game all the f'ing time man. Morning, noon, and night for months. I never made any significant improvement in my FPS skills. Theres only so much I can do with what I was given.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Be a gorge, drop chambers, or rt's.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ever do nothing but drop chambers and rts and wait excrutiatingly long times for res? Trust me, it gets old fast. In 1.04 I could take part in the action if I wanted. I'd die 90 some odd percent of the time without really accomplishing anything, but on the other hand, it was never any worse than if I didn't show up at all.
I'm really harping on R4K here, because I really do hate it and for some reason there are people who defend it as though it were their own child. But there are plenty of other problems with the current version of NS.
<!--quoteo(post=1575039:date=Nov 9 2006, 01:43 AM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Nov 9 2006, 01:43 AM) [snapback]1575039[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Holy skulk dude!? Really? I never thought of that! Seriously. I used to play this game all the f'ing time man. Morning, noon, and night for months. I never made any significant improvement in my FPS skills. Theres only so much I can do with what I was given. Ever do nothing but drop chambers and rts and wait excrutiatingly long times for res? Trust me, it gets old fast. In 1.04 I could take part in the action if I wanted. I'd die 90 some odd percent of the time without really accomplishing anything, but on the other hand, it was never any worse than if I didn't show up at all.
I'm really harping on R4K here, because I really do hate it and for some reason there are people who defend it as though it were their own child. But there are plenty of other problems with the current version of NS. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't buy that. Maybe if you just play on and don't think much about what youre doing wrong, then yes you'll stagnate. But think about HOW exactly you're aiming wrong, and think about how you could improve that. And are you using a low or high sensitivity? Because you have to be extraordinarily skilled to have good aim with a high sens, that's why most competitive players use low sensitivities. It's just so much easier to aim with.
And the thing is, you are not waiting for res. You are walking with your team and helping them out. Baiting, healing, spitting to weaken marine armor, all that jazz. Learn to bunnyhop well too ( which IS easy to do once you know how to do it, trust me. I come back to play ns after half a year and i've lost every aspect of skill except for bunnyhopping, it's like riding a bicycle) and you will be some invincible gorge that helps out your team a lot.
Current ns has problems, but most of it stems from how diferently the balance changes depending on the number of players in the game which has already been discussed. Other than that, it really is a good fun game. And contrary to what you believe, you don't have to be extraordinarily skilled at it to contribute to your team if that's what you find fun and fulfilling. And not just in a boring way like sitting in front of an rt for 5 minutes waiting for res, when you could be using that 5 minutes to help out your team, and etc.
edit: AND I don't buy that you don't get good because I honestly KNOW that I'm not talented either, and even I got good. I got good enough aim and movement skills just by pubbing in the game a lot. Some of the tricks I had to learn from playing competitively, but you could find guides on how to do those tricks on certain websites like nslearn. And those are all toppings on top of the most fundamental skill, aim. Movement is something to give you an edge after you have good aim, so instead of killing 2 skulks and dying, you could kill all 4 skulks instead. Instead of letting that fade get away with 100 hp, you could've dodged his last swipe and landed your last shotgun on him, and so on. You get the point. Honestly unless you have some kind of physical or mental disability(which i'm sorry if you do and i take it all back) that stops you from developing hand eye coordination skills, then you WILL get better if you try.
Ugh. The naturally FPS talented just can't understand. Telling me that if I just try harder and think about it more is going to help is like telling stephen hawking that he could walk if he just tried hard enough. Looky stephen! I can walk, its so <i>easy</i>.
This discussion is going nowhere, so I'm actually going to live up to my promise to just go ahead and drop it already.
Edit: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I got good enough aim and movement skills just by pubbing in the game a lot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Dude, I've wasted months and months of time, real in-game time, playing this game. I've been a reg in a couple of communities that were fairly competetive (on reg night, usually). 2 skulks? I'd consider myself incredibly lucky to get one. Funny thing is, my lack of skill never used to matter much, until they changed the gameplay significantly.
<!--quoteo(post=1575047:date=Nov 9 2006, 02:11 AM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Nov 9 2006, 02:11 AM) [snapback]1575047[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Ugh. The naturally FPS talented just can't understand. Telling me that if I just try harder and think about it more is going to help is like telling stephen hawking that he could walk if he just tried hard enough. Looky stephen! I can walk, its so <i>easy</i>.
This discussion is going nowhere, so I'm actually going to live up to my promise to just go ahead and drop it already.
Edit: Dude, I've wasted months and months of time, real in-game time, playing this game. I've been a reg in a couple of communities that were fairly competetive (on reg night, usually). 2 skulks? I'd consider myself incredibly lucky to get one. Funny thing is, my lack of skill never used to matter much, until they changed the gameplay significantly. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alright you completely ignored the part of my post that talked about how you could contribute to your team even when you have no fps skills. Please respond to that.
Also, you didn't answer my question either. What's your sensitivity? Because if you use a high sens, that could be a huge reason why you have bad aim.
This isn't something like stephen hawking walking because he is actually physically incapable of walking. What's preventing you from getting good at an fps game? You know what it is, right? You're just moving your mouse in accordance to what's on your screen through your hand-eye coordination skills, that's all. Are you bad at driving and have bad hand writing and are bad at all forms of sports and everything else in life that takes hand eye coordination? This is a skill that anyone who is capable of developing it CAN develop it.
Even if you're terrible at aiming, biting, whatever, there are things you can do. Ambush, recap/kill nodes, build sieges, weld teammates, distract marines, hit the base, sit in a vent and spore, gorge and heal lifeforms, etc. I realize not everybody can solo 5 skulks with a lmg, pistol, and knife, but you can at least play in a manner that helps the team.
If you are good at aiming, that's great. Keep doing that.
But just like, healing to keep your allies live longer or parasiting to scout marines, you shouldn't get more reward than that. The reward is the success of the act in of itself.
Telling pubbers to just "aim better" really doesn't get us anywhere. Obviously players will try their best to win in each game, but some people simply can't. Aiming well is the reward in itself. You don't need to magnify that advantage with RFK.
If you really need more res for larger games, again: make the RTs spit some more juice to compensate. We aren't asking to remove aiming from the game, just what you get out of it. Tell me what's wrong with giving everyone a fair share.
And Detheron, while me, you and skulk bait have similar views, we have different ends. While you push for your views on NS2, I believe skulkbait is pushing for more 1.04 changes, while I just want changes in skill-based features in the current NS, while retaining most of what 3.0 has brought.
I haven't read the whole thread, but it seems like everyone thinks the game is unbalanced because they aren't skilled... You can't just say "Make fading less necessary!" just because you die when you go fade...
I do agree that randomized hives are bad. The first thing that comes to mind is to just make aliens start with the middle hive every time.
About "upgrades being necessary": The beginning of the game is pretty balanced. I've heard plenty of people say it is marine-biased early game, but I somewhat disagree. I've seen marines stomp aliens early game, and vice versa. I would almost say it is alien-biased. It's very easy to kill a armor 0 marine if you are a smart skulk.
As of now, you could think of aliens as automatically having an "upgrade" at the beginning. Aliens basically have "innate" upgrades, if you will. They are always assumed to have some sort of chamber. They just choose which "upgrade" (chamber) they want.
As for marines, they don't necessarily need any upgrade. An armor 0 marine just has to clear his corners extremely carefully.
I know saying these things sounds rediculous, but TECHICALLY upgrades are not necessary. You could say that marines NEED armor 1 against focus to survive a bite or swipe. But then I could say that you better not get swiped, right?
I like how the marine upgrades work, but the way alien upgrades is really screwed up. You have 3 chambers, that's fine. 1 type of chamber can be dropped per hive, that's fine. You have 3 types of upgrades to choose from per chamber, that's fine.
The way the individual upgrades works is what's really ###### up. Some of the upgrades advantageous are too great, or change the game way too much.
DCs:
Redemption: I think this should be completely thrown out. For one thing, it isn't consistant. It doesn't always work (the formula might be consistant, but different situations make it inconsistant). I'm glad it doesn't always work though, because it's a STUPID upgrade. It's an "upgrade" that changes absolutely nothing for you, but pulls you back to the hive before you die. Think about this from a marine's perspective. If you shoot something, it should DIE. If it is in a situation that is lethal for it, it should die. The idea of a player getting an "upgrade" that revolves COMPLETELY around coming close to death is absurd.
Carapace: It seems like an ok upgrade on paper, but it changes the game a little too much. As a marine, there are some situations where you know you are safe. If there is no way of knowing if the skulk has carapace, then there is no way to fullful your role effectively as a "ranged unit". If you put yourself in a position where there is no way that the skulk can get to you in time to do damage before you kill it, then you should be considered playing the game correctly. Now there are a LOT of arguements that you could throw out against this, and I was going to sit here and think of them, but screw it, I don't care. After playing the game and getting used to skulks dying after me having my crosshair on them and shooting for a specific ammount of time, it is EXTREMELY ANNOYING to have to continue to shoot if the skulk has carapace. Say I'm selfish. Awesome! I don't care.
The above includes every alien class but fades. This is why carapace sucks for fades: Fading is a really delicate procedure. Timing is EVERYTHING. You have to learn exactly when to attack, keep an eye on your hp and retreat as late as possible so you can do as much damage as possible without dying, and many other things. Fades without carapace are FINE. They are almost perfect. They are extremely fragile and they have to know when to hit and when not to. An upgrade that gives them a crapload more HP destroys everything that fading is. Carapace is basically a crutch that terrible fades can rely on. A fade with carapace can be a sloppy stumbling bear and still survive, rediculous.
Regen: Fine as it is.
MCs:
Adrenaline: Fine as it is.
Celerity: Fine as it is but lerks with celerity are waaaay too powerful but I guess this is getting fixed. However, I also beleive skulks are a just a little bit too fast with celerity. I don't have any technical arguements for this, this is just how I feel after playing the game for 3 years.
Silence: Some feel it's fine, I don't. I think it is overpowered, and too game-altering. I don't have any techical arguments as to WHY, but in a video game; players should never be able to move at FULL speed completely silent. Ears, physical reflexes, and eyes are the main things that make up playing a game. Eliminating one of your senses is fine if you do it right, but silence really doesn't.
Yes, it's counterable. There's 3 ways. Scanning, MT, and simply watching your back.
Scanning isn't feasable. Scans are needed elsewhere (hive seiges, pushing into alien RT rooms or even just rooms themselves if you beleive them to be hostile, and a few other things). You can't scan very often. And you can't expect someone to randomly think "Hmm, there could be a full speed bunny hopping skulk coming from somewhere, can you randomly scan here and waste one of your pings?"
MT is the main counter. This isn't feasable either. The reason being: With DCs, skulks are deadlist with carapace. With sensories, skulks are deadliest with cloaking. With MCs, skulks are equally deadly with celerity AND silence. The upgrades not mentioned here are mainly SUPPORTING upgrades.
MCs have 2 upgrades that skulks are deadly with. If you are getting ripped apart by silence, you can counter it with MT. However, they still have celerity. Countering silence by getting MT is going to make you a lot weaker against everything else. MT has many drawbacks. Delayed phase tech (No, you won't have phase gates before you get MT. If you already DO have phase gates and you have MT, it is extremely late into the game. Either you have lost already, you have won already, or you are so teched ((the aliens let you have enough nodes to have pgs, and MT? You have already won)) that skulks don't even matter anymore.
Sensory: Cloaking: I like it, but it needs to be changed a bit. It changes the game a LOT, not for the worse or better. It is extremely fun playing against sensory if you have a coordinated team and skilled commander. It makes NS a COMPLETELY different game tactical-wise. However, 100% invisibility sucks. I loved the old cloaking. If you stood completely still and didn't move your screen, you could use your periphiral vision to see the cloaked skulk if you looked hard enough. Now if you had enough time to do this in the first place, then I think it is fair. It's a shame there were exploits that let people see cloakers very easily when it wasn't 100%
Scent of Fear: I don't like this upgrade. I think it's stupid in games to be able to see your enemies through walls, on minimaps, etc. (Parasites are fine though, you can avoid being parasited, you can't avoid being shown on SOF though)
Focus: I like it and hate it. It adds a lot more tactics to the game, like cloaking. You have to weld your teammates and be welded by them. I do beleive it is too powerful, though, and makes 1v1 combat extremely unbalanced in favor for the alien.
<!--quoteo(post=1575084:date=Nov 9 2006, 04:19 AM:name=MrMakaveli)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MrMakaveli @ Nov 9 2006, 04:19 AM) [snapback]1575084[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I haven't read the whole thread, but it seems like everyone thinks the game is unbalanced because they aren't skilled... You can't just say "Make fading less necessary!" just because you die when you go fade...
I do agree that randomized hives are bad. The first thing that comes to mind is to just make aliens start with the middle hive every time. About "upgrades being necessary": The beginning of the game is pretty balanced. I've heard plenty of people say it is marine-biased early game, but I somewhat disagree. I've seen marines stomp aliens early game, and vice versa. I would almost say it is alien-biased. It's very easy to kill a armor 0 marine if you are a smart skulk.
As of now, you could think of aliens as automatically having an "upgrade" at the beginning. Aliens basically have "innate" upgrades, if you will. They are always assumed to have some sort of chamber. They just choose which "upgrade" (chamber) they want.
As for marines, they don't necessarily need any upgrade. An armor 0 marine just has to clear his corners extremely carefully.
I know saying these things sounds rediculous, but TECHICALLY upgrades are not necessary. You could say that marines NEED armor 1 against focus to survive a bite or swipe. But then I could say that you better not get swiped, right? I like how the marine upgrades work, but the way alien upgrades is really screwed up. You have 3 chambers, that's fine. 1 type of chamber can be dropped per hive, that's fine. You have 3 types of upgrades to choose from per chamber, that's fine.
The way the individual upgrades works is what's really ###### up. Some of the upgrades advantageous are too great, or change the game way too much.
DCs:
Redemption: I think this should be completely thrown out. For one thing, it isn't consistant. It doesn't always work (the formula might be consistant, but different situations make it inconsistant). I'm glad it doesn't always work though, because it's a STUPID upgrade. It's an "upgrade" that changes absolutely nothing for you, but pulls you back to the hive before you die. Think about this from a marine's perspective. If you shoot something, it should DIE. If it is in a situation that is lethal for it, it should die. The idea of a player getting an "upgrade" that revolves COMPLETELY around coming close to death is absurd. Carapace: It seems like an ok upgrade on paper, but it changes the game a little too much. As a marine, there are some situations where you know you are safe. If there is no way of knowing if the skulk has carapace, then there is no way to fullful your role effectively as a "ranged unit". If you put yourself in a position where there is no way that the skulk can get to you in time to do damage before you kill it, then you should be considered playing the game correctly. Now there are a LOT of arguements that you could throw out against this, and I was going to sit here and think of them, but screw it, I don't care. After playing the game and getting used to skulks dying after me having my crosshair on them and shooting for a specific ammount of time, it is EXTREMELY ANNOYING to have to continue to shoot if the skulk has carapace. Say I'm selfish. Awesome! I don't care.
The above includes every alien class but fades. This is why carapace sucks for fades: Fading is a really delicate procedure. Timing is EVERYTHING. You have to learn exactly when to attack, keep an eye on your hp and retreat as late as possible so you can do as much damage as possible without dying, and many other things. Fades without carapace are FINE. They are almost perfect. They are extremely fragile and they have to know when to hit and when not to. An upgrade that gives them a crapload more HP destroys everything that fading is. Carapace is basically a crutch that terrible fades can rely on. A fade with carapace can be a sloppy stumbling bear and still survive, rediculous.
Regen: Fine as it is. MCs:
Adrenaline: Fine as it is. Celerity: Fine as it is but lerks with celerity are waaaay too powerful but I guess this is getting fixed. However, I also beleive skulks are a just a little bit too fast with celerity. I don't have any technical arguements for this, this is just how I feel after playing the game for 3 years. Silence: Some feel it's fine, I don't. I think it is overpowered, and too game-altering. I don't have any techical arguments as to WHY, but in a video game; players should never be able to move at FULL speed completely silent. Ears, physical reflexes, and eyes are the main things that make up playing a game. Eliminating one of your senses is fine if you do it right, but silence really doesn't.
Yes, it's counterable. There's 3 ways. Scanning, MT, and simply watching your back.
Scanning isn't feasable. Scans are needed elsewhere (hive seiges, pushing into alien RT rooms or even just rooms themselves if you beleive them to be hostile, and a few other things). You can't scan very often. And you can't expect someone to randomly think "Hmm, there could be a full speed bunny hopping skulk coming from somewhere, can you randomly scan here and waste one of your pings?"
MT is the main counter. This isn't feasable either. The reason being: With DCs, skulks are deadlist with carapace. With sensories, skulks are deadliest with cloaking. With MCs, skulks are equally deadly with celerity AND silence. The upgrades not mentioned here are mainly SUPPORTING upgrades.
MCs have 2 upgrades that skulks are deadly with. If you are getting ripped apart by silence, you can counter it with MT. However, they still have celerity. Countering silence by getting MT is going to make you a lot weaker against everything else. MT has many drawbacks. Delayed phase tech (No, you won't have phase gates before you get MT. If you already DO have phase gates and you have MT, it is extremely late into the game. Either you have lost already, you have won already, or you are so teched ((the aliens let you have enough nodes to have pgs, and MT? You have already won)) that skulks don't even matter anymore. Sensory: Cloaking: I like it, but it needs to be changed a bit. It changes the game a LOT, not for the worse or better. It is extremely fun playing against sensory if you have a coordinated team and skilled commander. It makes NS a COMPLETELY different game tactical-wise. However, 100% invisibility sucks. I loved the old cloaking. If you stood completely still and didn't move your screen, you could use your periphiral vision to see the cloaked skulk if you looked hard enough. Now if you had enough time to do this in the first place, then I think it is fair. It's a shame there were exploits that let people see cloakers very easily when it wasn't 100% Scent of Fear: I don't like this upgrade. I think it's stupid in games to be able to see your enemies through walls, on minimaps, etc. (Parasites are fine though, you can avoid being parasited, you can't avoid being shown on SOF though) Focus: I like it and hate it. It adds a lot more tactics to the game, like cloaking. You have to weld your teammates and be welded by them. I do beleive it is too powerful, though, and makes 1v1 combat extremely unbalanced in favor for the alien. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only thing that I can partially agree with is carapace - but then in the opposite direction. I find that carapace is somewhat too weak. Carapace on a fade and they are still a bit like paperbags, same for the oni. On the other hand I'm not that much of a fade or oni player, so that probably has something to do with it - although I really think that an oni should be way more like a tank.
Frankly, all upgrades are more or less fine as they are. I've seen every single one being utilized to the fullest depending on what alien type you play as. Silence - perfectly fine. Focus - perfectly fine. Scent of fear - perfectly fine. Cloaking - perfectly fine (now that it is 100%)
Of course, it all depends on how the both teams try to adapt to each other. If both teams are really good, you will have interesting and intense games where players will utilize all upgrades and counter each other in every way possible.
If teams aren't serious (like seen in a lot of pub servers these days) then upgrades will start to lose some of their meaning, efficiency or become overpowered, simply cause the other team is uncapable of adapting.
Don't blaim the upgrades - blaim the players instead.
NS has good overall balance, but it has alot of instances of poor internal balance, and even more instances of poor instancing balance which is by far it's weakest point IMO, also it's fairly skill imbalanced. Overall I'd agree with most of the observations made in this thread, but most of the proposed solutions are just really ignorant. They address the problem without considering the status of the game as a whole. It's very clear this thread was made by someone who is primarily a game player, not a game designer.
<!--quoteo(post=1575010:date=Nov 9 2006, 06:52 AM:name=Jmmsbnd007)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jmmsbnd007 @ Nov 9 2006, 06:52 AM) [snapback]1575010[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Why <i>aren't</i> individual rewards good in a team-based game? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because it rewards the individual and not the team. In most of the time this is good though because if someone is killing enough people to afford a Fade evolution, and if he's a team oriented Fade, he can help the team immensely because of it.
BlooVillage Fool of UWFJoin Date: 2006-11-09Member: 58497Members
I agree, Kill the commander and you kill what makes NS so different from other HL-Mods: The RTS feyreling only REALLY realtimed
N-S should allso have servers for new commanders there they won't get ejected as soon as they make a mistake. I have played this game for allmost 2 years and think the classes are well balanced. If the alien team choose to do a skulk rush at the start of the game. the round starts over and a new one starts. i have only seen this happen a few times though.
<!--quoteo(post=1575047:date=Nov 9 2006, 07:11 AM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Nov 9 2006, 07:11 AM) [snapback]1575047[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Funny thing is, my lack of skill never used to matter much, until they changed the gameplay significantly. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thing is though, NS is a game. The definition of game according to dictionary.com is - a 'competitive activity involving skill'. You can still run round as a Gorge and get up to your naughty little Gorgey-shenanigans if after 3 years of playing you still can't seem to kill anyone.
It's not like they have completely made the game unplayable just by adding Resources for Kills...
I don't mean to come across harsh, but what you said really made me need to post.
I agree, but I don't think it's a mapping problem. To solve this with mapping would be a band-aid fix. I think there is too much randomluck in getting the center hive, and it borders on being unbalanced.
5)The Motion Tracking/Scent of Fear issue
You can make the argument that "global wall hack effects are bad to have in a game because they kill the atmosphere and distort realistic gameplay" but this is something that NS has used for a long time, and it seems to work relatively well. I could do with or without it in a new version of the game.
4) The commander
Completely disagree in every way.
3) Upgrades should give you an edge, NOT be essential
In an FPS that's true, but this is an FPS/RTS hybrid. In my experience, Terran without a Factory is bad in virtually any situation. Similarly, a game without meaningful upgrades isn't a hybrid anymore. It's counter-strike with res nodes.
2) The resource distribution issue
The differentiated res systems seem balanceable to me. I wouldn't remove them since they add clarity between the races. I'll take some minor play-around-able balance issues over stagnant game design, especially with the way the league is set up for each team to play once on both races.
1) Race Vs. Race Balance:
You're right, but that's the nature of the beast.
///
It seems like you want NS to stop being a hybrid in Source and change into a pure FPS. I disagree with this sentiment.
But with that said, UWE needs to deal with the "ns_ problem":
<b>Bottomline: The way the game is set up, ns_ maps require skill and a lot of knowhow to begin playing, but in order to attain that skill and knowhow, you have to play a lot of ns_ (catch-22).</b>
If nothing else, future versions of NS or NS2 <b>must</b> deal with this problem to push ns toward <b>A minute to learn, a lifetime to master</b>.
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
edited November 2006
[quote]<b>1) Race Vs. Race Balance:</b>
Since 1.0, a lot of tweaks have been made regarding game balance. Each team is as unique as you can get, and that is what I call a balance nightmare.
Why? Because you can't fully achieve balance between both teams when they have nothing in common, nothing to compare with each other. You can't balance HA vs Onos, or Jetpacks vs Lerks, for example. The end result is that one team always has an upper hand on the other, <b>making individual skill less meaningful than classes or weapon upgrades. </b>[/quote]
Individual skill is by far the most important portion of NS. A good fade will demolish a team with little support (You need someone to drop a hive and build chambers, both of which don't require much in terms of actual gameplay skill, it's more decision making than skill). You're trying to say things that are made to COUNTER the other should be balanced to be even, which is wrong. The onos is made to counter HA, it's not even in any fashion nor was it supposed to be. This is like saying frigates should be equal to a battlecruiser in Homeworld 2. The entire point is to see what the other team is doing and use the counter for it. See an onos? Get HA. See a hive going up and aliens stretched thin? Send out the jetpack/shotguns. Hard counters are a viable RTS strategy to use.
[quote]<b>2) The resource distribution issue</b> Resource management is the core of any RTS game, and here is no different. Nothing short of a sucessful early skulk rush will win this game without spending resources. While the unique resource distribution system for each class adds flavor and uniqueness to the game, I hope the current system gets discarded for NS2 and a new system, equal for both races, gets put in place.
The resource distribution system is the very foundation of balance in any RTS game, and in previous incarnations of NS, having 2 different systems brought a lot of headache for the developers. We all remember those 1.0x games with 12 players on each side, and how the aliens could never get enough res to build things as fast as marines. Things evolved since the implementation of "resource-per-kills" but it was a mere bandaid fix.
Both sides need to use the same RDS for the sake of balance. This doesn't mean that all turrets must cost the same, all resource nodes the same, etc, only that both teams need to get and spend the same amount of resources at the same pace, no matter how small or big the game is. You could, for example, make each resource node your team has give one resource point per player on your team every X seconds, and make marines pay for the weapons/HAs/JETs themselves instead of the commander, just like aliens pay for their forms, instead of implementing a resource-per-kills system.[/quote]
The resource output per team is even given that they have the same number of resnodes. The distribution of the resources is what is different. Every 6 seconds the commander gets a resource point from every resnode aliens have constructed that's not been built within the last 6 seconds. Every 6 seconds aliens get resources in the form of Resnodes built/number of aliens, equally dividing the resources by the number of aliens. Just clearing that up for anyone confused. The core portion of NS is that aliens and marines are different in many fashions, and I think the resource system works quite well. The only thing I think could be tweaked a bit is Marine RFK, especially given 3.2. Once again you make the assumption that balance is only attainable given both sides are equal, which is proven wrong by many games (Everything from Warcraft to Street Fighter).
[quote]<b>3) Upgrades should give you an edge, NOT be essential</b>
This is a very touchy subject, because it is very hard to not make an upgrade essential without making it useless. With the abundancy of bunny jumping macros, strafe walking and other speed-increasing scripts, movement chambers became almost essential as the first chamber for aliens because there are marines <b>nearly</b> outrunning vanilla skulks. Also, as marines get armor and weapon upgrades, the vanilla skulk gets more and more weak, whereas the 3/3 marine is actually quite deadly to skulks, gorges, lerks and not-so-skilled fades. If an upgrade gives substantial benefit over other upgrades of the same techtree, or is required (or commonly considered as a requirement) for a specific class to survive, something is wrong with the design.[/quote]
Your playing method is what makes upgrades essential or not, the playing style has to be adapted to what you're using. Some upgrades are simply better for whatever you want to do, that doesn't mean the design is wrong. In starcraft, the zerg queen has a range of options available, but only certain ones are truly useful in certain situations. If you have parasite and the enemy rushes (terran) wraiths, you're in trouble. If you got ensnare, you're in luck. [/quote]
[quote]<b>4) The commander</b>
At first I thought it was a great idea. The commander, a truly unique class (there can be only one at a time). No other class or player can have as much influence in the outcome of the game as him/her. This puts a really heavy weight on the shoulders of newcomers as they might be new to commanding and not so great at multi-tasking, which leads to servers having a select few "unnofficial" commanders while any beginner who gives a shot at the chair in peak hours is instantly ejected.
It was a fine idea that didn't work with the community, and I hope they won't be an unique class in NS2 anymore.[/quote]
"A fine idea that didn't work"? Are you <b><i>mad</i></b>? Commanding is insanely successful, and one of the unique aspects of NS that attracted many players (including myself). I would not have played NS without having a commander mode, it was the unique aspect that caught my eye. Commanding is not for newbies, that's not a hidden fact. If you are a poor multi-tasker, you will not be a good commander. This does not mean the commander mode is a failure. If you don't know how to navigate along 3 axes, you won't be a good lerk. Doesn't mean lerk flight is a failure.
[quote]<b>5)The Motion Tracking/Scent of Fear issue</b>
It was posted in the Nuclear Dawn topic, but I found it a very valid point. Upgrades that pin point your enemies in your screen lower the skill factor present in the game. These upgrades in the current implementation are too powerful, but not something that should be discarded right away. A few tweaks, such as updating the screen every 6~8 seconds instead of every 2 seconds, or not capturing slow-moving targets (one could argue that sneaky marines don't sweat as much as running ones) would make them useful without making them "too good".[/quote]
Both sof/mt have the same issue: Knowing where the enemy is still doesn't help you effectively kill them. I agree that they're both rather powerful though, when used correctly.
[quote]<b>6) The square problem (Map design)</b>
This is not a flaw of the game itself, but rather map design. Imagine a square. In one corner you have the Marine Start, in the other 3, hives. I'm not saying that all maps should or are designed that way, just keep that image in your head a little and you will see my point.
The best hive to spawn is usually the hive in the middle, because you can quickly connect to the other 2 hives from it. If you spawn in one of the other hives, you will be close to one hive and very far away from the other. Maps such as ns_caged comes to mind. It is a pretty big walk from Generator to Sewer, probably twice as much if Ventilation is locked down. If you spawn in the middle hive and a 'corner' hive gets locked down, you still have the other one pretty close to you, and very far away from marines. If you spawn in one of the other 2 hives, you only have one viable option to expand into. If the middle hive gets locked down, the game just became a lot harder than the former scenario.[/quote]
I think this is probably your best point, and I agree it's an issue.
<!--quoteo(post=1575021:date=Nov 8 2006, 10:15 PM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Nov 8 2006, 10:15 PM) [snapback]1575021[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Biting RTs is a waste of time. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This has been, by far, the funniest and most ignorant post in this entire topic.
Congrats.
One of the largest problems in the NS community right now is the skill disparity. And its not the devs or map makers fault. They is a HUGE gap currently between players. This comes from newer players and players who never got better at the game and then the clanners/pubstars. There are currently very few middle of the road players in NS. The active server lists has greatly diminished for ns_ maps. So yes, a cal level player is going to whoop you up and down the map if you can not find a way to stop him with either tactics or teamwork. The problem mainly lies with the current playerbase.
<!--quoteo(post=1575264:date=Nov 9 2006, 05:54 PM:name=Nikon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Nikon @ Nov 9 2006, 05:54 PM) [snapback]1575264[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One of the largest problems in the NS community right now is the skill disparity. And its not the devs or map makers fault.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree. The primary problem with NS, as I see it, is the ridiculously insane learning curve (this is the reason combat is so popular despite it being a lame training module).
<b>If the ns_ learning curve were made more reasonable for new players, ns_ would be more popular and the steepness of the skill disparity would dissipate.</b>
PS: New players have no idea how to gorge or what the hell a movement chamber is. Don't be decieved into thinking that simply gorging is the solution to new players. It's not. New players (for good reason) want a fun game, not an exercise in clerical healing and support roles.
PPS: Don't get the idea that I hate gorges from that postscript. Like everyone else, I love them all dearly and would hate to see the builder class removed. (Though prestidigitationesque tricks may be interesting to consider for them.)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"A fine idea that didn't work"? Are you mad? Commanding is insanely successful, and one of the unique aspects of NS that attracted many players (including myself). I would not have played NS without having a commander mode, it was the unique aspect that caught my eye. Commanding is not for newbies, that's not a hidden fact. If you are a poor multi-tasker, you will not be a good commander. This does not mean the commander mode is a failure. If you don't know how to navigate along 3 axes, you won't be a good lerk. Doesn't mean lerk flight is a failure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please re-read what you have quoted and you will see that nowhere I mentioned the commander mode was a failure. It is an interesting, attractive, and unique feature. It does however carry too much weight on the shoulders of a single player, has a very steep learning curve, and not everyone who plays NS played an RTS game before. My issue is that limiting one commander per team effectively locks newcomers out of it, and creates situations such as people not wanting to comm for the first couple of minutes - because they don't want the responsability.
If NS2 were to have much bigger maps than NS1, having one commander per game would be even worse.
If you think that Commanders are fine the way the are, its your opinion. Mine just happens to respectfully disagree.
Note to the clueless: I've dropped the subject. You win Ok? R4K is the greatest thing since sliced bread. FPS skill is the only thing that should matter in a game, ever. Stop bringing it up just to waste a post insulting me.
<!--quoteo(post=1575338:date=Nov 9 2006, 11:51 PM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Nov 9 2006, 11:51 PM) [snapback]1575338[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Note to the clueless: I've dropped the subject. You win Ok? R4K is the greatest thing since sliced bread. FPS skill is the only thing that should matter in a game, ever. Stop bringing it up just to waste a post insulting me. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Google "cpl mouse fix" and download it. It is a .reg file.
Google "usb polling rate" and find a program that will raise your polling rate. Raise it to 500 hertz.
Add these to your NS launch options. -noforcemparms -noforcemaccel -noforcemspd
Make sure "enhance pointer precision" is NOT checked in your mouse properties in your control panel.
Make sure your mouse sensitivity in your mouse options in your control panel is set to the middle bar, 6/10. Some people have it set different, but I suggest putting it at 6/10.
<!--quoteo(post=1575304:date=Nov 9 2006, 06:36 PM:name=Harrower)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harrower @ Nov 9 2006, 06:36 PM) [snapback]1575304[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I disagree. The primary problem with NS, as I see it, is the ridiculously insane learning curve (this is the reason combat is so popular despite it being a lame training module). <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I use a good old fashioned PS/2 mouse and until recently (read: before I quit playing NS) I used Win2k, and had no problems with fixed mouse acceleration. The mouse is not the problem, my inability to acurately point it at the target and pull the trigger in the required time frame is.
I'm not asking for any help. Besides which, this is the wrong place for it. So please refrain from giving it as it has nothing to do with the thread topic.
Comments
I much prefer the old res system. Its only significant draw back was that your gorge had to know what he was doing, but that was Ok, because the marine commander was similarly required to know what he was doing. Commander and permagorge had very similar roles in those days.
I'm not going to bother trying to convince you further, since you have your heart set on keeping it and I doubt the game will ever actually be fun to me ever again anyways.
RFK isn't bad for the current NS game, in fact, it is needed. What we are trying to say is that we would like to see RFK scrapped from NS 2 (not NS1, NS2) with a superior Resource Distribution System being put in place to compensate.
People trash talk CS all the time, but few actually realized how close we actually are to being another CS clone. RFK rewards a deathmatch/rambo style of gameplay instead of strategic teamplay, and such concept is not something the entire player base feels comfortable with.
For the last time, I'm not talking about NS 1 here. I'm not asking to see it removed from NS 1. I'm asking to receive a system in NS2 where RFK won't be needed - or present. Is that really a radical concept?
You are avoiding the subject. They said it not once, not twice, but three times that your reward is that you are alive and your enemy isnt. In fact, you read it every time. Why are you taking what other people say to an extreme just to ridicularize them, instead of making an intelligent post about why you feel that systems in a team-based game which reward players individually are good for the future of NS and should be implemented in NS2?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How is NS even remotely close to being "another CS clone"...? How does RFK reward a "rambo style of gameplay" when it only rewards individuals on aliens (who affect the team when they spend their res anyways)?
And I'm ridiculing people how...? If someone tries to make an argument, then they should know that they will eventually have to defend it... Seriously, you try to say that killing the guy is enough reward as a logical justification to removing R4K. Listen to yourself.
Why <i>aren't</i> individual rewards good in a team-based game?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I know R4K has an effect because whenever I join a team, their chance of loosing is significantly increased.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why is that a result of R4K?
Who is being "hurt" by rfk here? Joe Blow the alien who hasn't got a kill yet? Or Bob Dylan the marine who's died 10 times before the second hive went up?
I'm not a 50-1 fade. I pub exclusively. When I'm gorging to put up the second hive, I don't care that Jimmy is getting more res than me. Why? Because he's killing all the marines that I likely couldn't.
When I'm a marine and the same skulk that killed me 10 times is now a fade destroying our base, should I blame the rfk for the bad luck?
Don't look at rewarding the skilled players lightly. It's rather selfish. "OMG CLANNER HAS MORE RES THAN ME" is absolutely silly. You should acknowledge the fact that he is getting kills that the rest of your team isn't. Stop worrying about the K:D ratio and notice how much easier it is right now to keep that second hive up.
He's the <i>tank.</i> He'll very much appreciate that you helped him win by putting up that hive, those rts (because RFK alone won't buy a shiny new fade when the old one gets scratched) or by healing him. The marines are gunning for him. Use him as bait and try to get some cleanup kills. Stop worrying about your K:D ratio and stop worrying about him being at the top of the scoreboard while you're at the bottom. Go kill some marine rts or parasite a ninja.
If your marine team is being destroyed by that fade, chances are, you aren't killing their rts or hives anyway. Your team is failing to work together and communicate to compensate for your shortcomings. The RFK has nothing to do with you losing.
RFK isn't rewarding him. <!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->It's helping him, help you.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> He dies as a fade, and has no res to back up that second fade, I sure hope you can take his place.
My entire team is punished for my lack of FPS skill. In 1.04, the worst I could do was have no effect at all on the outcome of the game. With R4K, every time I die the other team gets a couple of res. Thanks to R4K, I'm a walking liability. Which, aside from the game not really being any fun for me anymore, is a primary motivator for me to not play. Why should I ruin it for everybody else by joining their team and feeding the enemy res?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't look at rewarding the skilled players lightly. It's rather selfish. "OMG CLANNER HAS MORE RES THAN ME" is absolutely silly. You should acknowledge the fact that he is getting kills that the rest of your team isn't. Stop worrying about the K:D ratio and notice how much easier it is right now to keep that second hive up.
He's the tank. He'll very much appreciate that you helped him win by putting up that hive, those rts (because RFK alone won't buy a shiny new fade when the old one gets scratched) or by healing him. The marines are gunning for him. Use him as bait and try to get some cleanup kills. Stop worrying about your K:D ratio and stop worrying about him being at the top of the scoreboard while you're at the bottom. Go kill some marine rts or parasite a ninja.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't give a damn about K:D ratio. Aside from needing to mute people, or find out what lifeform they are, I never bother to look at the scoreboard. Never did. Hell, IIRC the scoreboard didn't used to show a kill count. There was a time when the devs said it never would, just like they said there'd never be hand grenades.
I never get a chance to put up a second hive. Someone who's a good skulk put the time in to get the R4K and drop it long before I've gotten near enough through seepage. Biting RTs is a waste of time. Early game a rambo or two is always dispatched to stop me before I can finish, mid-late game theres f'ing elec.
My entire team is punished for my lack of FPS skill. In 1.04, the worst I could do was have no effect at all on the outcome of the game. With R4K, every time I die the other team gets a couple of res. Thanks to R4K, I'm a walking liability. Which, aside from the game not really being any fun for me anymore, is a primary motivator for me to not play. Why should I ruin it for everybody else by joining their team and feeding the enemy res?
I don't give a damn about K:D ratio. Aside from needing to mute people, or find out what lifeform they are, I never bother to look at the scoreboard. Never did. Hell, IIRC the scoreboard didn't used to show a kill count.
I never get a chance to put up a second hive. Someone who's a good skulk put the time in to get the R4K and drop it long before I've gotten near enough through seepage. Biting RTs is a waste of time. Early game a rambo or two is always dispatched to stop me before I can finish, mid-late game theres f'ing elec.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First post for a long time, and youre the reason for it.
Look, ns didn't become skill-oriented just because of rfk. If you're so bad that all you do is feed people res and have absolutely no actual skill to contribute to the team, perhaps you should try improving your skills. People aren't born good at games, you will improve as you play and learn from your mistakes. Lower your sensitivity, aim, correct your marine/skulk movements, learn, improvise. It's all part of the fun.
Next, it's obvious that you have no idea how the game is played now. Even if you are so bad at the game, you could still contribute to the team as alien and work as a team. Be a gorge, drop chambers, or rt's. Yeah, not important, right? Wrong. Stick around, provide healing for your skulks and fades and lerks. This is absolutely essential, I'm the type of player who does nothing but res ###### and get higher lifeforms, and gorges help me out a LOT. Spit at marines from a distance to weaken their armor, make them shoot you and bait them for your skulk buddies. You don't need to be good to do it, it doesn't take long to learn how to walk in front of a marine and spit once or twice, then run away once he starts shooting you and let your teammates do the rest.
Oh, and nobody electrifies RT's anymore. Waste of res, so if you want to go around biting down rt's late game then yo ucan do it all you want. You'll find a lot of skulks might just skip those rt's though because frankly, it's boring. But if you want to help out your team, there's plenty of opportunities to do so, and biting down rt's helps a lot and is one of them. Usually late game marines are too preoccupied taking down hives and higher lifeforms and whatnot, so you most likely will get that RT down.
Oh and this is bugging me in the original post. Macros do not improve marine speed, except for wiggle walking which is rarely used because other methods that require absolutely no script or macro (just mouse movement coordinated with keyboard movement) are just as good if you're good at it.
Holy skulk dude!? Really? I never thought of that! Seriously. I used to play this game all the f'ing time man. Morning, noon, and night for months. I never made any significant improvement in my FPS skills. Theres only so much I can do with what I was given.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Be a gorge, drop chambers, or rt's.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ever do nothing but drop chambers and rts and wait excrutiatingly long times for res? Trust me, it gets old fast. In 1.04 I could take part in the action if I wanted. I'd die 90 some odd percent of the time without really accomplishing anything, but on the other hand, it was never any worse than if I didn't show up at all.
I'm really harping on R4K here, because I really do hate it and for some reason there are people who defend it as though it were their own child. But there are plenty of other problems with the current version of NS.
Holy skulk dude!? Really? I never thought of that! Seriously. I used to play this game all the f'ing time man. Morning, noon, and night for months. I never made any significant improvement in my FPS skills. Theres only so much I can do with what I was given.
Ever do nothing but drop chambers and rts and wait excrutiatingly long times for res? Trust me, it gets old fast. In 1.04 I could take part in the action if I wanted. I'd die 90 some odd percent of the time without really accomplishing anything, but on the other hand, it was never any worse than if I didn't show up at all.
I'm really harping on R4K here, because I really do hate it and for some reason there are people who defend it as though it were their own child. But there are plenty of other problems with the current version of NS.
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I don't buy that. Maybe if you just play on and don't think much about what youre doing wrong, then yes you'll stagnate. But think about HOW exactly you're aiming wrong, and think about how you could improve that. And are you using a low or high sensitivity? Because you have to be extraordinarily skilled to have good aim with a high sens, that's why most competitive players use low sensitivities. It's just so much easier to aim with.
And the thing is, you are not waiting for res. You are walking with your team and helping them out. Baiting, healing, spitting to weaken marine armor, all that jazz. Learn to bunnyhop well too ( which IS easy to do once you know how to do it, trust me. I come back to play ns after half a year and i've lost every aspect of skill except for bunnyhopping, it's like riding a bicycle) and you will be some invincible gorge that helps out your team a lot.
Current ns has problems, but most of it stems from how diferently the balance changes depending on the number of players in the game which has already been discussed. Other than that, it really is a good fun game. And contrary to what you believe, you don't have to be extraordinarily skilled at it to contribute to your team if that's what you find fun and fulfilling. And not just in a boring way like sitting in front of an rt for 5 minutes waiting for res, when you could be using that 5 minutes to help out your team, and etc.
edit: AND I don't buy that you don't get good because I honestly KNOW that I'm not talented either, and even I got good. I got good enough aim and movement skills just by pubbing in the game a lot. Some of the tricks I had to learn from playing competitively, but you could find guides on how to do those tricks on certain websites like nslearn. And those are all toppings on top of the most fundamental skill, aim. Movement is something to give you an edge after you have good aim, so instead of killing 2 skulks and dying, you could kill all 4 skulks instead. Instead of letting that fade get away with 100 hp, you could've dodged his last swipe and landed your last shotgun on him, and so on. You get the point. Honestly unless you have some kind of physical or mental disability(which i'm sorry if you do and i take it all back) that stops you from developing hand eye coordination skills, then you WILL get better if you try.
This discussion is going nowhere, so I'm actually going to live up to my promise to just go ahead and drop it already.
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Dude, I've wasted months and months of time, real in-game time, playing this game. I've been a reg in a couple of communities that were fairly competetive (on reg night, usually). 2 skulks? I'd consider myself incredibly lucky to get one. Funny thing is, my lack of skill never used to matter much, until they changed the gameplay significantly.
Ugh. The naturally FPS talented just can't understand. Telling me that if I just try harder and think about it more is going to help is like telling stephen hawking that he could walk if he just tried hard enough. Looky stephen! I can walk, its so <i>easy</i>.
This discussion is going nowhere, so I'm actually going to live up to my promise to just go ahead and drop it already.
Edit:
Dude, I've wasted months and months of time, real in-game time, playing this game. I've been a reg in a couple of communities that were fairly competetive (on reg night, usually). 2 skulks? I'd consider myself incredibly lucky to get one. Funny thing is, my lack of skill never used to matter much, until they changed the gameplay significantly.
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Alright you completely ignored the part of my post that talked about how you could contribute to your team even when you have no fps skills. Please respond to that.
Also, you didn't answer my question either. What's your sensitivity? Because if you use a high sens, that could be a huge reason why you have bad aim.
This isn't something like stephen hawking walking because he is actually physically incapable of walking. What's preventing you from getting good at an fps game? You know what it is, right? You're just moving your mouse in accordance to what's on your screen through your hand-eye coordination skills, that's all. Are you bad at driving and have bad hand writing and are bad at all forms of sports and everything else in life that takes hand eye coordination? This is a skill that anyone who is capable of developing it CAN develop it.
But just like, healing to keep your allies live longer or parasiting to scout marines, you shouldn't get more reward than that. The reward is the success of the act in of itself.
Telling pubbers to just "aim better" really doesn't get us anywhere. Obviously players will try their best to win in each game, but some people simply can't. Aiming well is the reward in itself. You don't need to magnify that advantage with RFK.
If you really need more res for larger games, again: make the RTs spit some more juice to compensate. We aren't asking to remove aiming from the game, just what you get out of it. Tell me what's wrong with giving everyone a fair share.
And Detheron, while me, you and skulk bait have similar views, we have different ends. While you push for your views on NS2, I believe skulkbait is pushing for more 1.04 changes, while I just want changes in skill-based features in the current NS, while retaining most of what 3.0 has brought.
I do agree that randomized hives are bad. The first thing that comes to mind is to just make aliens start with the middle hive every time.
About "upgrades being necessary":
The beginning of the game is pretty balanced. I've heard plenty of people say it is marine-biased early game, but I somewhat disagree. I've seen marines stomp aliens early game, and vice versa. I would almost say it is alien-biased. It's very easy to kill a armor 0 marine if you are a smart skulk.
As of now, you could think of aliens as automatically having an "upgrade" at the beginning. Aliens basically have "innate" upgrades, if you will. They are always assumed to have some sort of chamber. They just choose which "upgrade" (chamber) they want.
As for marines, they don't necessarily need any upgrade. An armor 0 marine just has to clear his corners extremely carefully.
I know saying these things sounds rediculous, but TECHICALLY upgrades are not necessary. You could say that marines NEED armor 1 against focus to survive a bite or swipe. But then I could say that you better not get swiped, right?
I like how the marine upgrades work, but the way alien upgrades is really screwed up. You have 3 chambers, that's fine. 1 type of chamber can be dropped per hive, that's fine. You have 3 types of upgrades to choose from per chamber, that's fine.
The way the individual upgrades works is what's really ###### up. Some of the upgrades advantageous are too great, or change the game way too much.
DCs:
Redemption: I think this should be completely thrown out. For one thing, it isn't consistant. It doesn't always work (the formula might be consistant, but different situations make it inconsistant). I'm glad it doesn't always work though, because it's a STUPID upgrade.
It's an "upgrade" that changes absolutely nothing for you, but pulls you back to the hive before you die. Think about this from a marine's perspective. If you shoot something, it should DIE. If it is in a situation that is lethal for it, it should die.
The idea of a player getting an "upgrade" that revolves COMPLETELY around coming close to death is absurd.
Carapace: It seems like an ok upgrade on paper, but it changes the game a little too much. As a marine, there are some situations where you know you are safe. If there is no way of knowing if the skulk has carapace, then there is no way to fullful your role effectively as a "ranged unit". If you put yourself in a position where there is no way that the skulk can get to you in time to do damage before you kill it, then you should be considered playing the game correctly.
Now there are a LOT of arguements that you could throw out against this, and I was going to sit here and think of them, but screw it, I don't care. After playing the game and getting used to skulks dying after me having my crosshair on them and shooting for a specific ammount of time, it is EXTREMELY ANNOYING to have to continue to shoot if the skulk has carapace. Say I'm selfish. Awesome! I don't care.
The above includes every alien class but fades. This is why carapace sucks for fades: Fading is a really delicate procedure. Timing is EVERYTHING. You have to learn exactly when to attack, keep an eye on your hp and retreat as late as possible so you can do as much damage as possible without dying, and many other things. Fades without carapace are FINE. They are almost perfect. They are extremely fragile and they have to know when to hit and when not to. An upgrade that gives them a crapload more HP destroys everything that fading is. Carapace is basically a crutch that terrible fades can rely on. A fade with carapace can be a sloppy stumbling bear and still survive, rediculous.
Regen:
Fine as it is.
MCs:
Adrenaline:
Fine as it is.
Celerity:
Fine as it is but lerks with celerity are waaaay too powerful but I guess this is getting fixed.
However, I also beleive skulks are a just a little bit too fast with celerity. I don't have any technical arguements for this, this is just how I feel after playing the game for 3 years.
Silence:
Some feel it's fine, I don't. I think it is overpowered, and too game-altering. I don't have any techical arguments as to WHY, but in a video game; players should never be able to move at FULL speed completely silent. Ears, physical reflexes, and eyes are the main things that make up playing a game. Eliminating one of your senses is fine if you do it right, but silence really doesn't.
Yes, it's counterable. There's 3 ways. Scanning, MT, and simply watching your back.
Scanning isn't feasable. Scans are needed elsewhere (hive seiges, pushing into alien RT rooms or even just rooms themselves if you beleive them to be hostile, and a few other things). You can't scan very often. And you can't expect someone to randomly think "Hmm, there could be a full speed bunny hopping skulk coming from somewhere, can you randomly scan here and waste one of your pings?"
MT is the main counter. This isn't feasable either. The reason being: With DCs, skulks are deadlist with carapace. With sensories, skulks are deadliest with cloaking. With MCs, skulks are equally deadly with celerity AND silence. The upgrades not mentioned here are mainly SUPPORTING upgrades.
MCs have 2 upgrades that skulks are deadly with. If you are getting ripped apart by silence, you can counter it with MT. However, they still have celerity. Countering silence by getting MT is going to make you a lot weaker against everything else. MT has many drawbacks. Delayed phase tech (No, you won't have phase gates before you get MT. If you already DO have phase gates and you have MT, it is extremely late into the game. Either you have lost already, you have won already, or you are so teched ((the aliens let you have enough nodes to have pgs, and MT? You have already won)) that skulks don't even matter anymore.
Sensory:
Cloaking: I like it, but it needs to be changed a bit. It changes the game a LOT, not for the worse or better. It is extremely fun playing against sensory if you have a coordinated team and skilled commander. It makes NS a COMPLETELY different game tactical-wise. However, 100% invisibility sucks. I loved the old cloaking. If you stood completely still and didn't move your screen, you could use your periphiral vision to see the cloaked skulk if you looked hard enough. Now if you had enough time to do this in the first place, then I think it is fair. It's a shame there were exploits that let people see cloakers very easily when it wasn't 100%
Scent of Fear: I don't like this upgrade. I think it's stupid in games to be able to see your enemies through walls, on minimaps, etc. (Parasites are fine though, you can avoid being parasited, you can't avoid being shown on SOF though)
Focus: I like it and hate it. It adds a lot more tactics to the game, like cloaking. You have to weld your teammates and be welded by them. I do beleive it is too powerful, though, and makes 1v1 combat extremely unbalanced in favor for the alien.
I haven't read the whole thread, but it seems like everyone thinks the game is unbalanced because they aren't skilled... You can't just say "Make fading less necessary!" just because you die when you go fade...
I do agree that randomized hives are bad. The first thing that comes to mind is to just make aliens start with the middle hive every time.
About "upgrades being necessary":
The beginning of the game is pretty balanced. I've heard plenty of people say it is marine-biased early game, but I somewhat disagree. I've seen marines stomp aliens early game, and vice versa. I would almost say it is alien-biased. It's very easy to kill a armor 0 marine if you are a smart skulk.
As of now, you could think of aliens as automatically having an "upgrade" at the beginning. Aliens basically have "innate" upgrades, if you will. They are always assumed to have some sort of chamber. They just choose which "upgrade" (chamber) they want.
As for marines, they don't necessarily need any upgrade. An armor 0 marine just has to clear his corners extremely carefully.
I know saying these things sounds rediculous, but TECHICALLY upgrades are not necessary. You could say that marines NEED armor 1 against focus to survive a bite or swipe. But then I could say that you better not get swiped, right?
I like how the marine upgrades work, but the way alien upgrades is really screwed up. You have 3 chambers, that's fine. 1 type of chamber can be dropped per hive, that's fine. You have 3 types of upgrades to choose from per chamber, that's fine.
The way the individual upgrades works is what's really ###### up. Some of the upgrades advantageous are too great, or change the game way too much.
DCs:
Redemption: I think this should be completely thrown out. For one thing, it isn't consistant. It doesn't always work (the formula might be consistant, but different situations make it inconsistant). I'm glad it doesn't always work though, because it's a STUPID upgrade.
It's an "upgrade" that changes absolutely nothing for you, but pulls you back to the hive before you die. Think about this from a marine's perspective. If you shoot something, it should DIE. If it is in a situation that is lethal for it, it should die.
The idea of a player getting an "upgrade" that revolves COMPLETELY around coming close to death is absurd.
Carapace: It seems like an ok upgrade on paper, but it changes the game a little too much. As a marine, there are some situations where you know you are safe. If there is no way of knowing if the skulk has carapace, then there is no way to fullful your role effectively as a "ranged unit". If you put yourself in a position where there is no way that the skulk can get to you in time to do damage before you kill it, then you should be considered playing the game correctly.
Now there are a LOT of arguements that you could throw out against this, and I was going to sit here and think of them, but screw it, I don't care. After playing the game and getting used to skulks dying after me having my crosshair on them and shooting for a specific ammount of time, it is EXTREMELY ANNOYING to have to continue to shoot if the skulk has carapace. Say I'm selfish. Awesome! I don't care.
The above includes every alien class but fades. This is why carapace sucks for fades: Fading is a really delicate procedure. Timing is EVERYTHING. You have to learn exactly when to attack, keep an eye on your hp and retreat as late as possible so you can do as much damage as possible without dying, and many other things. Fades without carapace are FINE. They are almost perfect. They are extremely fragile and they have to know when to hit and when not to. An upgrade that gives them a crapload more HP destroys everything that fading is. Carapace is basically a crutch that terrible fades can rely on. A fade with carapace can be a sloppy stumbling bear and still survive, rediculous.
Regen:
Fine as it is.
MCs:
Adrenaline:
Fine as it is.
Celerity:
Fine as it is but lerks with celerity are waaaay too powerful but I guess this is getting fixed.
However, I also beleive skulks are a just a little bit too fast with celerity. I don't have any technical arguements for this, this is just how I feel after playing the game for 3 years.
Silence:
Some feel it's fine, I don't. I think it is overpowered, and too game-altering. I don't have any techical arguments as to WHY, but in a video game; players should never be able to move at FULL speed completely silent. Ears, physical reflexes, and eyes are the main things that make up playing a game. Eliminating one of your senses is fine if you do it right, but silence really doesn't.
Yes, it's counterable. There's 3 ways. Scanning, MT, and simply watching your back.
Scanning isn't feasable. Scans are needed elsewhere (hive seiges, pushing into alien RT rooms or even just rooms themselves if you beleive them to be hostile, and a few other things). You can't scan very often. And you can't expect someone to randomly think "Hmm, there could be a full speed bunny hopping skulk coming from somewhere, can you randomly scan here and waste one of your pings?"
MT is the main counter. This isn't feasable either. The reason being: With DCs, skulks are deadlist with carapace. With sensories, skulks are deadliest with cloaking. With MCs, skulks are equally deadly with celerity AND silence. The upgrades not mentioned here are mainly SUPPORTING upgrades.
MCs have 2 upgrades that skulks are deadly with. If you are getting ripped apart by silence, you can counter it with MT. However, they still have celerity. Countering silence by getting MT is going to make you a lot weaker against everything else. MT has many drawbacks. Delayed phase tech (No, you won't have phase gates before you get MT. If you already DO have phase gates and you have MT, it is extremely late into the game. Either you have lost already, you have won already, or you are so teched ((the aliens let you have enough nodes to have pgs, and MT? You have already won)) that skulks don't even matter anymore.
Sensory:
Cloaking: I like it, but it needs to be changed a bit. It changes the game a LOT, not for the worse or better. It is extremely fun playing against sensory if you have a coordinated team and skilled commander. It makes NS a COMPLETELY different game tactical-wise. However, 100% invisibility sucks. I loved the old cloaking. If you stood completely still and didn't move your screen, you could use your periphiral vision to see the cloaked skulk if you looked hard enough. Now if you had enough time to do this in the first place, then I think it is fair. It's a shame there were exploits that let people see cloakers very easily when it wasn't 100%
Scent of Fear: I don't like this upgrade. I think it's stupid in games to be able to see your enemies through walls, on minimaps, etc. (Parasites are fine though, you can avoid being parasited, you can't avoid being shown on SOF though)
Focus: I like it and hate it. It adds a lot more tactics to the game, like cloaking. You have to weld your teammates and be welded by them. I do beleive it is too powerful, though, and makes 1v1 combat extremely unbalanced in favor for the alien.
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Only thing that I can partially agree with is carapace - but then in the opposite direction. I find that carapace is somewhat too weak. Carapace on a fade and they are still a bit like paperbags, same for the oni. On the other hand I'm not that much of a fade or oni player, so that probably has something to do with it - although I really think that an oni should be way more like a tank.
Frankly, all upgrades are more or less fine as they are. I've seen every single one being utilized to the fullest depending on what alien type you play as. Silence - perfectly fine. Focus - perfectly fine. Scent of fear - perfectly fine. Cloaking - perfectly fine (now that it is 100%)
Of course, it all depends on how the both teams try to adapt to each other. If both teams are really good, you will have interesting and intense games where players will utilize all upgrades and counter each other in every way possible.
If teams aren't serious (like seen in a lot of pub servers these days) then upgrades will start to lose some of their meaning, efficiency or become overpowered, simply cause the other team is uncapable of adapting.
Don't blaim the upgrades - blaim the players instead.
Why <i>aren't</i> individual rewards good in a team-based game?
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Because it rewards the individual and not the team. In most of the time this is good though because if someone is killing enough people to afford a Fade evolution, and if he's a team oriented Fade, he can help the team immensely because of it.
Kill the commander and you kill what makes NS so different from other HL-Mods: The RTS feyreling only REALLY realtimed
N-S should allso have servers for new commanders there they won't get ejected as soon as they make a mistake. I have played this game for allmost 2 years and think the classes are well balanced. If the alien team choose to do a skulk rush at the start of the game. the round starts over and a new one starts. i have only seen this happen a few times though.
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Thing is though, NS is a game. The definition of game according to dictionary.com is - a 'competitive activity involving skill'. You can still run round as a Gorge and get up to your naughty little Gorgey-shenanigans if after 3 years of playing you still can't seem to kill anyone.
It's not like they have completely made the game unplayable just by adding Resources for Kills...
I don't mean to come across harsh, but what you said really made me need to post.
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6) The square problem (Map design)
I agree, but I don't think it's a mapping problem. To solve this with mapping would be a band-aid fix. I think there is too much randomluck in getting the center hive, and it borders on being unbalanced.
5)The Motion Tracking/Scent of Fear issue
You can make the argument that "global wall hack effects are bad to have in a game because they kill the atmosphere and distort realistic gameplay" but this is something that NS has used for a long time, and it seems to work relatively well. I could do with or without it in a new version of the game.
4) The commander
Completely disagree in every way.
3) Upgrades should give you an edge, NOT be essential
In an FPS that's true, but this is an FPS/RTS hybrid. In my experience, Terran without a Factory is bad in virtually any situation. Similarly, a game without meaningful upgrades isn't a hybrid anymore. It's counter-strike with res nodes.
2) The resource distribution issue
The differentiated res systems seem balanceable to me. I wouldn't remove them since they add clarity between the races. I'll take some minor play-around-able balance issues over stagnant game design, especially with the way the league is set up for each team to play once on both races.
1) Race Vs. Race Balance:
You're right, but that's the nature of the beast.
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It seems like you want NS to stop being a hybrid in Source and change into a pure FPS. I disagree with this sentiment.
But with that said, UWE needs to deal with the "ns_ problem":
<b>Bottomline: The way the game is set up, ns_ maps require skill and a lot of knowhow to begin playing, but in order to attain that skill and knowhow, you have to play a lot of ns_ (catch-22).</b>
If nothing else, future versions of NS or NS2 <b>must</b> deal with this problem to push ns toward <b>A minute to learn, a lifetime to master</b>.
Since 1.0, a lot of tweaks have been made regarding game balance. Each team is as unique as you can get, and that is what I call a balance nightmare.
Why? Because you can't fully achieve balance between both teams when they have nothing in common, nothing to compare with each other. You can't balance HA vs Onos, or Jetpacks vs Lerks, for example. The end result is that one team always has an upper hand on the other, <b>making individual skill less meaningful than classes or weapon upgrades. </b>[/quote]
Individual skill is by far the most important portion of NS. A good fade will demolish a team with little support (You need someone to drop a hive and build chambers, both of which don't require much in terms of actual gameplay skill, it's more decision making than skill). You're trying to say things that are made to COUNTER the other should be balanced to be even, which is wrong. The onos is made to counter HA, it's not even in any fashion nor was it supposed to be. This is like saying frigates should be equal to a battlecruiser in Homeworld 2. The entire point is to see what the other team is doing and use the counter for it. See an onos? Get HA. See a hive going up and aliens stretched thin? Send out the jetpack/shotguns. Hard counters are a viable RTS strategy to use.
[quote]<b>2) The resource distribution issue</b>
Resource management is the core of any RTS game, and here is no different. Nothing short of a sucessful early skulk rush will win this game without spending resources. While the unique resource distribution system for each class adds flavor and uniqueness to the game, I hope the current system gets discarded for NS2 and a new system, equal for both races, gets put in place.
The resource distribution system is the very foundation of balance in any RTS game, and in previous incarnations of NS, having 2 different systems brought a lot of headache for the developers. We all remember those 1.0x games with 12 players on each side, and how the aliens could never get enough res to build things as fast as marines. Things evolved since the implementation of "resource-per-kills" but it was a mere bandaid fix.
Both sides need to use the same RDS for the sake of balance. This doesn't mean that all turrets must cost the same, all resource nodes the same, etc, only that both teams need to get and spend the same amount of resources at the same pace, no matter how small or big the game is. You could, for example, make each resource node your team has give one resource point per player on your team every X seconds, and make marines pay for the weapons/HAs/JETs themselves instead of the commander, just like aliens pay for their forms, instead of implementing a resource-per-kills system.[/quote]
The resource output per team is even given that they have the same number of resnodes. The distribution of the resources is what is different. Every 6 seconds the commander gets a resource point from every resnode aliens have constructed that's not been built within the last 6 seconds. Every 6 seconds aliens get resources in the form of Resnodes built/number of aliens, equally dividing the resources by the number of aliens. Just clearing that up for anyone confused. The core portion of NS is that aliens and marines are different in many fashions, and I think the resource system works quite well. The only thing I think could be tweaked a bit is Marine RFK, especially given 3.2. Once again you make the assumption that balance is only attainable given both sides are equal, which is proven wrong by many games (Everything from Warcraft to Street Fighter).
[quote]<b>3) Upgrades should give you an edge, NOT be essential</b>
This is a very touchy subject, because it is very hard to not make an upgrade essential without making it useless. With the abundancy of bunny jumping macros, strafe walking and other speed-increasing scripts, movement chambers became almost essential as the first chamber for aliens because there are marines <b>nearly</b> outrunning vanilla skulks. Also, as marines get armor and weapon upgrades, the vanilla skulk gets more and more weak, whereas the 3/3 marine is actually quite deadly to skulks, gorges, lerks and not-so-skilled fades. If an upgrade gives substantial benefit over other upgrades of the same techtree, or is required (or commonly considered as a requirement) for a specific class to survive, something is wrong with the design.[/quote]
Your playing method is what makes upgrades essential or not, the playing style has to be adapted to what you're using. Some upgrades are simply better for whatever you want to do, that doesn't mean the design is wrong. In starcraft, the zerg queen has a range of options available, but only certain ones are truly useful in certain situations. If you have parasite and the enemy rushes (terran) wraiths, you're in trouble. If you got ensnare, you're in luck.
[/quote]
[quote]<b>4) The commander</b>
At first I thought it was a great idea. The commander, a truly unique class (there can be only one at a time). No other class or player can have as much influence in the outcome of the game as him/her. This puts a really heavy weight on the shoulders of newcomers as they might be new to commanding and not so great at multi-tasking, which leads to servers having a select few "unnofficial" commanders while any beginner who gives a shot at the chair in peak hours is instantly ejected.
It was a fine idea that didn't work with the community, and I hope they won't be an unique class in NS2 anymore.[/quote]
"A fine idea that didn't work"? Are you <b><i>mad</i></b>? Commanding is insanely successful, and one of the unique aspects of NS that attracted many players (including myself). I would not have played NS without having a commander mode, it was the unique aspect that caught my eye. Commanding is not for newbies, that's not a hidden fact. If you are a poor multi-tasker, you will not be a good commander. This does not mean the commander mode is a failure. If you don't know how to navigate along 3 axes, you won't be a good lerk. Doesn't mean lerk flight is a failure.
[quote]<b>5)The Motion Tracking/Scent of Fear issue</b>
It was posted in the Nuclear Dawn topic, but I found it a very valid point. Upgrades that pin point your enemies in your screen lower the skill factor present in the game. These upgrades in the current implementation are too powerful, but not something that should be discarded right away. A few tweaks, such as updating the screen every 6~8 seconds instead of every 2 seconds, or not capturing slow-moving targets (one could argue that sneaky marines don't sweat as much as running ones) would make them useful without making them "too good".[/quote]
Both sof/mt have the same issue: Knowing where the enemy is still doesn't help you effectively kill them. I agree that they're both rather powerful though, when used correctly.
[quote]<b>6) The square problem (Map design)</b>
This is not a flaw of the game itself, but rather map design. Imagine a square. In one corner you have the Marine Start, in the other 3, hives. I'm not saying that all maps should or are designed that way, just keep that image in your head a little and you will see my point.
The best hive to spawn is usually the hive in the middle, because you can quickly connect to the other 2 hives from it. If you spawn in one of the other hives, you will be close to one hive and very far away from the other. Maps such as ns_caged comes to mind. It is a pretty big walk from Generator to Sewer, probably twice as much if Ventilation is locked down. If you spawn in the middle hive and a 'corner' hive gets locked down, you still have the other one pretty close to you, and very far away from marines. If you spawn in one of the other 2 hives, you only have one viable option to expand into. If the middle hive gets locked down, the game just became a lot harder than the former scenario.[/quote]
I think this is probably your best point, and I agree it's an issue.
Biting RTs is a waste of time.
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This has been, by far, the funniest and most ignorant post in this entire topic.
Congrats.
One of the largest problems in the NS community right now is the skill disparity. And its not the devs or map makers fault. They is a HUGE gap currently between players. This comes from newer players and players who never got better at the game and then the clanners/pubstars. There are currently very few middle of the road players in NS. The active server lists has greatly diminished for ns_ maps. So yes, a cal level player is going to whoop you up and down the map if you can not find a way to stop him with either tactics or teamwork. The problem mainly lies with the current playerbase.
I disagree. The primary problem with NS, as I see it, is the ridiculously insane learning curve (this is the reason combat is so popular despite it being a lame training module).
<b>If the ns_ learning curve were made more reasonable for new players, ns_ would be more popular and the steepness of the skill disparity would dissipate.</b>
PS: New players have no idea how to gorge or what the hell a movement chamber is. Don't be decieved into thinking that simply gorging is the solution to new players. It's not. New players (for good reason) want a fun game, not an exercise in clerical healing and support roles.
PPS: Don't get the idea that I hate gorges from that postscript. Like everyone else, I love them all dearly and would hate to see the builder class removed. (Though prestidigitationesque tricks may be interesting to consider for them.)
Please re-read what you have quoted and you will see that nowhere I mentioned the commander mode was a failure. It is an interesting, attractive, and unique feature. It does however carry too much weight on the shoulders of a single player, has a very steep learning curve, and not everyone who plays NS played an RTS game before. My issue is that limiting one commander per team effectively locks newcomers out of it, and creates situations such as people not wanting to comm for the first couple of minutes - because they don't want the responsability.
If NS2 were to have much bigger maps than NS1, having one commander per game would be even worse.
If you think that Commanders are fine the way the are, its your opinion. Mine just happens to respectfully disagree.
Note to the clueless: I've dropped the subject. You win Ok? R4K is the greatest thing since sliced bread. FPS skill is the only thing that should matter in a game, ever. Stop bringing it up just to waste a post insulting me.
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I wish you'd at least tell us your sensitivity.
We're trying to help you out, not attacking you.
Google "cpl mouse fix" and download it. It is a .reg file.
Google "usb polling rate" and find a program that will raise your polling rate. Raise it to 500 hertz.
Add these to your NS launch options. -noforcemparms -noforcemaccel -noforcemspd
Make sure "enhance pointer precision" is NOT checked in your mouse properties in your control panel.
Make sure your mouse sensitivity in your mouse options in your control panel is set to the middle bar, 6/10. Some people have it set different, but I suggest putting it at 6/10.
Restart your computer.
Tweak your sensitivity and get used to it.
I disagree. The primary problem with NS, as I see it, is the ridiculously insane learning curve (this is the reason combat is so popular despite it being a lame training module).
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you actually agree with me.
I'm not asking for any help. Besides which, this is the wrong place for it. So please refrain from giving it as it has nothing to do with the thread topic.