Marines Are To Strong!

warzonepress · November 2002

<div class="IPBDescription">In a bit of research...</div> In a bit of research we did over a LAN, we discoverd that the average marine is weaker than the average alien. However in less than 20 minutes the marines could be sportings new weaponary that would peel the chrome off of a 38 Roadster...?

I dont know about the rest of you guys, thats a little unfair, cause in 20 minutes aliens are just getting there defense chamber and perhaps a 2nd hive...

The Marines are sporting siege turrets, while we have a jaw full of razor sharp teeth.

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'> = <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'> = <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'> = <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'> Death...

Anyway, the marines weapons can kill with less than a magazine, and there accuracy is a lot better compared to a fade or a whatever were sporting besides are teeth...

For a evolved race, that cant seem to surpass spitting and setting up webs, were really not the natural selection, which causes me to wonder why the TSA weren't able to destroy us, why create the Frontiersmen deal?

Why?

If I were a marine, I would need just 8 guys to take out an alien invasion, 1 guy building 1 guy commanding and 6 guys protecting?

I have to build and protect on the alien team... cause there is no team work whatsoever on our team, cause infact the developers designed it that, way...

I am confused, we gave the game great reviews, playing mostly on the Marines side...... However now that I have spent the week playing as an alien, I feel the Skulk Blues...

In order to defeat the Marines the Aliens need about 10 on 5 to win.

Will there be any improvements, more aliens with projectiles?
Will Onos finally be able to kill, cause its nearly impossible to find out if your killing anything with an onos,..

-Chris

www.warzonegaming.com
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check out the review! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'>

Draugluin · November 2002

If you can show the developers how it's actually unbalanced in a real play setting, then I'm sure they would have no problem fixing it.

Supernorn · November 2002

It depends whos playing the game. The game is usually longer and more enjoyable with competent experienced players who know exactly where they are going and what they are doing,

you say that the alien team werent working together and were going rambo on you...that is why your team failed. Team work on both sides is needed for a more enjoyable and sucessful game.

I'm just guessing your new seeing as this is your first post.
so excuse me if im wrong...

<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'><i>This post has been edited to protect the innocent and to stop insane haunting me with posts from the past!
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QuietMischief1 · November 2002

dude, play some more, on populated servers, like Fanservice or Nano-Gridlock, before you say anything please

Seriously, get in some game time, because alien players that know what they are doing can have not just a 2nd hive up, but in 15 minutes, sometimes 10, a 3rd hive up

warzonepress · November 2002

hahah no Im not a noob, this is my first reply, cause I didn't really care to post in these forums, for I have my own site, www.warzonegaming.com

I play games for a living and have put in a good 120 hours into this game, easily, infact I am perhaps one of the best commanders, if I do say so myself, I drop ammo and health packets, and hardly lose a life on the map.

Plus I strategicly place turrets and sub bases, I like to have about 4 sub bases and 1 main base, this way, I can ppl spawn in different area's of a map, have phase gates, and even get heavy armor, and jet packs less than a few feet from an enemy base, I upgrade weapons and armor and what not, I love the commander's chair...hehe

However, I decided to play as an alien, and have been playing the aliens for like 20 hours so far, and I was on a team, that had 1 gorge to start out with, got resources, and we had 2 hives in 20 minutes, but in 20 minutes the marines had enough gear to wipe us out, it was unfair, so, perhaps your the noob.

Supernorn · November 2002

from what you have written, i can only assume that you've gained your experience from being a commander, which is different from playing in the grunt's perspective.

<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'><i>This post has been edited to protect the innocent and to stop insane haunting me with posts from the past!
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FatKao · November 2002

I'd hate to break it to you but PROPERLY played early marine RAPES alien.

-sYn|FatKao

Supernorn · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FatKao @ Nov 23 2002, 03:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I'd hate to break it to you but PROPERLY played early marine RAPES alien.

-sYn|FatKa

</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
not all the time. it can vary, depends whose playing and your perspective of playing PROPERLY

Draxo · November 2002

I agree with you Warzone.. i came here just to say this, but since the topic is up *shrug* no need to make another one.

I agree TOTALLY. the game is FAR too biased against aliens, and i really dont know that norn is saying.. marines have every advantage agaisnt aliens. Yes, even in close combat, even right at the start, ive seen and experienced being blown apart by a LMG or even a pistol in Close Combat, its crazy. Either marines need toning down, or aliens need beefing up.. terribly so.

oh and btw, i only play Aliens, so maybe i'm a little biased, but maybe it gives me a better view on the aliens sitation. (humans are boring! =P)

Supernorn · November 2002

<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'><i>This post has been edited to protect the innocent and to stop insane haunting me with posts from the past!
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Kove · November 2002

I don't get it, why does everybody want the marines to be nerfed?
When I play, it's by far the Aliens who wins the most <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'>

Not whining or flaming or anything, but that's how it is when I play <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>

Supernorn · November 2002

<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'><i>This post has been edited to protect the innocent and to stop insane haunting me with posts from the past!
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Draxo · November 2002

yeah, but i'll take an example from yesterday.

I was harrasing marines from the shafts, i hear someone coming, go invis =) and wait.. classic scene, marine crawling through the dark creepy shafts, i wait till he turns a corner and creep up behind him. Skreech, i leap and rend him, then bite bite bite bite bite, he turnsd around, bit bite.. **obscenity** this guy sint dead yet?

bite, he shoots on auto, bite bite, he's left full auto on i'm dead.

now.. wtf? i dont know if the game is glitchy in some respect.. but i leapt and then bit that guy how many times? 10? that was with an lmg? he had light armor at best?

somethings just wrong here.. then theres the guy that somehow survived my Fade slashing 5-6 times and blew me apart from 100 health and 80+ armor with a pistol.. while i was slashing him over and over.

othell · November 2002

The marines are definately not too strong. I've played aliens and marines about equal... maybe more marines, but I love to play aliens. I love to go fade after 2nd hive has been acquired and just kick marine **obscenity**. The aliens are not built for direct and continued assault on the marines. They're major advantage is their speed. Their ability to fall back, heal, and go attack again. Keeping the marines on their toes and only able to expand at a very slow pace, if at all.

If it took you 20 minutes to get a 2nd hive you're not doing something correctly. Its amazing how fast you can get enough resources for a 2nd hive if you take the time to get 2 - 4 resource nozzles up first (also get 1 defense chamber up during this time). This is assuming its a small game. If its a good sized game, use 2 - 3 gorges and dedicate just 1 of them to saving up for a hive. The other(s) secure resource nozzles or the first hive.

To be honest, the team I'm on hardly ever loses. This probably has alot to do with the fact that I force any team I'm on to talk and work together. Ask anyone who has played with me. I never shut up. Always talking. This game requires team work from both sides. Alot of people say the marines have to use team work more than the aliens (I've even said it at times), but the more I play the more I realize this really is not true. The aliens have to depend on each other just as much as the marines, especially if they want their hit and run tactics to work.

If the aliens do not pressure the marines the marines are able to expand and get resource nozzles and own at mid-game. If the marines do not pressure the aliens and expand quickly then the aliens will get a 2nd hive and the marines will have a much harder time expanding. The best middle game is when the marines have 1 hive and the aliens have 2 and its Fades vs HA/HMG's. Those can be some of the funnest round evers, because that's when real coordination and strategy comes into play.

Both races have their advantages.... and they each have their disadvantages. Right now... even WITH the bugs, I think its pretty even to an extent. Once the biggest bugs are fixed I do fear that balance will once again become a problem. We'll see though. Until then, everyone who complains about the game being unbalanced needs to take another look and think again. 120 hours is not alot of time TBH. 20 hours of aliens is not along time either. Either is plenty of time to get a good feel for the game, but if you're intentions are to discover that there is a balance problem, then I sorta have to believe you created the problem yourself.

Supernorn · November 2002

cant say ive ever experienced anything like this, (due to my lack of playing as the kaara)
maybe the commander was dropping health packs on him? lol

anyone else want to give their opinion? theres quite a few reading this at the moment of writing <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

othell · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Draxo @ Nov 23 2002, 04:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>yeah, but i'll take an example from yesterday.

I was harrasing marines from the shafts, i hear someone coming, go invis =) and wait.. classic scene, marine crawling through the dark creepy shafts, i wait till he turns a corner and creep up behind him. Skreech, i leap and rend him, then bite bite bite bite bite, he turnsd around, bit bite.. **obscenity** this guy sint dead yet?

bite, he shoots on auto, bite bite, he's left full auto on i'm dead.

now.. wtf? i dont know if the game is glitchy in some respect.. but i leapt and then bit that guy how many times? 10? that was with an lmg? he had light armor at best?

somethings just wrong here.. then theres the guy that somehow survived my Fade slashing 5-6 times and blew me apart from 100 health and 80+ armor with a pistol.. while i was slashing him over and over.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Start reading these forums more. There is a hitbox bug for marines when in vents. Its alot harder to get them, possible, but harder. So that's not a balance problem... Its a known bug.

Supernorn · November 2002

<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'><i>This post has been edited to protect the innocent and to stop insane haunting me with posts from the past!
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Draxo · November 2002

hmm, they should fix that.. i mean.. aliens are supposed to be at their strongest in places like shafts.. and well, as you can tell by my posy count, i only just came on these forums ;P thanks for the info btw. =)

Supernorn · November 2002

<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'><i>This post has been edited to protect the innocent and to stop insane haunting me with posts from the past!
</i></span>

t1mmy · November 2002

I have been playin this game for only a short time, 4 days or something like that, I have put a lot of time in to it over those few days, i have been both marine and alien, (marine more i expect) but if i have started a game at the begining i have yet to loose, if ppl work 2gether and use avd taccys for thier race, then the game is almost balanced.

However i did say almost, Marine seige cannons shooting through walls, sucks tbh, and i do feel that the marines do have a slight advantage, Most noticibly due to the fact that marines can have heath dropped on em, while also have a long range weapon, and more armour than most alien units, welders to repair armour etc, I would say due to this marines have a slight advantage is playing with equal sides (excluding n00bs ofc) i would say the fade is teh best alien unit due to it having a range attack, but vs HA/HMG/Wedler/Dropped heath on even 1 marine, u wont win, cause u would have to fall back to regnerate,

Give maybe the aliens at 10% increase in armour/heath and it would be slightly more fair imo,

feel free to flame away

t1mmy

Draxo · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (supernorn2000 @ Nov 23 2002, 04:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>while we are on the subject, maybe we could have a list of all the bugs so far for NS?
just so everyone is sure what to look out for <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
yeh, make one with a clear title and sticky it.

Testament · November 2002

Once aliens get the second hive with fades, they win. Me and a friend (Paranoia-2MB) joined midgame on Nancy. We had a bunch of resource nodes, and we evolved to Fade. We started assaulting the auxilary generators, and we cost them a LOT of resources. Ammo station, phase gate, 2 TF's, 8-12 turrets, and a bunch of Heavy Armor + HMG marines. Then we went and did a bit more damage and we ripped apart the main base, they didn't stand a chance. Don't whine about aliens being underpowered. They're quite excellent.

Draxo · November 2002

come now.. that happened.. once? in one game? ever think you were playing newbies?

Ive been in games where we've been pushed back from Onos assaulting back to fade then to Skulk in a matter of a half hour.

Aliens cant do that..

Syzergy · November 2002

Here's my two cents: When I first got this mod I wanted to play as the marines because they looked pretty cool - but it honestly doesn't take that much skill to point and shoot - But as a marine you have your disadvantage such as; Walk Speed and also not being so agile/versitile as the aliens are. Im not here to gloat or anything and say Im a way better player than everyone here - But after I played a few days as marines I figured Id try aliens and being an alien in most circumstances is a good challenge and thats what games are supposed to set up for you "a challenge". Yeah ok some people about 2-3 weeks into this game might just not have all the skills pattoned down yet and don't worry just keep at it - It is frustraiting that you hop on a server and people just cant get along or just go and do thier own thing, trust me this effects ALL OF US. I myself can take out light marines with ease as a skulk because as an alien you need to use stealth and have patients sometimes to catch your prey - And if Im a Fade I can take out Heavies with ease also because I use walls and other objects to block thier attacks - That's all you need - Use your brain - What will help out your team? Go out there and give it all you got - you don't have to be the best player in the world to win at this game - The gameplay is fine and teams are balanced in my vision (and also in many others) - Both teams are in a race to build up thier structs to destroy the enemy (C&C) and if I had to pick between Aliens or Marines if both teams had experienced players... Id have to say aliens would conquer.

- <b>Syzergy</b> aka "<b>.</b>" (ingame)

TacoSupreme · November 2002

Well I have to disagree with the original post. I play random (seems to be aliens more), and have seen both sides win many times. I personally think aliens are better (imo of course, they are proboably balanced), because I do best with them. In the beginning of the game a sneaky skulk with carapace can kill large groups of marines single handedly (takes about 20 rounds to kill a skulk with carapace).

In those perfect games that end up with a 2 hive alien force fighting fully upped marines for the 3rd hive, you just get 2-3 fades and a lerk, with a gorge too if possible and kill some marines. Lerks use umbra making the fades able to take lots of HMG rounds, gorge heals everyone, and sets webs up when you retreat (adrenaline for gorge is great), fades dish out the killing. 3 Fades can drop even a heavy armor marine in 2-4 seconds. Get the guys with the grenade launchers first, then get everyone else.

Well I guess I'm saying that I think the teams are fair. I'm not sure what happenned in your game where you didnt get the second hive in 20minutes, usually you have it in 5-10 (depending on game size, gorge skill, teamwork).

VeTeRaN · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>warzonepress Posted: Nov 23 2002, 03:31 PM
I dont know about the rest of you guys, thats a little unfair, cause in 20 minutes aliens are just getting there defense chamber and perhaps a 2nd hive...
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Aliens can get a defense chamber up right away ( as soon as you spawn, and evolve to gorge, you can build a defense chamber if you have the res ).

Catpoker · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>yeah, but i'll take an example from yesterday.

I was harrasing marines from the shafts, i hear someone coming, go invis =) and wait.. classic scene, marine crawling through the dark creepy shafts, i wait till he turns a corner and creep up behind him. Skreech, i leap and rend him, then bite bite bite bite bite, he turnsd around, bit bite.. **obscenity** this guy sint dead yet?

bite, he shoots on auto, bite bite, he's left full auto on i'm dead.

now.. wtf? i dont know if the game is glitchy in some respect.. but i leapt and then bit that guy how many times? 10? that was with an lmg? he had light armor at best?

somethings just wrong here.. then theres the guy that somehow survived my Fade slashing 5-6 times and blew me apart from 100 health and 80+ armor with a pistol.. while i was slashing him over and over</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

marines cant be killed in vents, it is a bug (not sure if i am alllowed to say this or not)

z-man · November 2002

imo opinion the game is balanced, the only flaws atm are:
a) not working motion tracker sometimes
b) you build a turret factory but it cant be upgraded so you can build siege turrets around or you upgrade it but can't build sieges anyway

otherwise, the balance is fine <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>

Catpoker · November 2002

edit: sorry, double post

Legionnaired · November 2002

Yes, if you aim for the marine's groin in the vent, they go down.

I'm not even kidding.

Alright war, let's dance.

I checked out your review, and you missed a great deal of points, not to mention your sub-standard use of sentance length and flow in your review, but I won't touch on that.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>However only a handful Mods have gone on as Valve or Sierra supported. Games like TFC, Counter Strike, Blue Shift and Opposing Force...</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Blue shift and OppFor were both Valve-created products, not mods.

Handful? Try 3. TFC(although this was bought up so fast, it may as well have been a valve product), C-Strike, and lately, DOD. But let's not bicker over that.

The level design is really well done, and the first Beta version of the game, released with the fewest bugs than any other mod, and best level design than any other mod.

First of all, although gramatically correct, this doesn't flow well at all. May wanna consider revising it. Plus, it's not a beta. It's the finished release version. Not a beta.

So you are saying, you tested all other half-life mods, an all other mod's level design? A better writing of this would have been:

"The first release of this mod, sporting an incredibly low bug count. Not only was the gameply polished from the get-go, but the 8 official levels, besides being huge, has better aesthetics and layout than those of any other mod this revewer has ever seen."

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Cons::
-Netcode errors, which cause horrible lag online
-Crash surfacing problems, buildings get placed over troops sometimes
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

First of all, it's not netcode, it's CPU usage, from the enormous entity counts. Do your homework next time. The buildings placed over players is the commander's fault, not the game's.

Also, </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>for I have my own site, www.warzonegaming.com

I play games for a living and have put in a good 120 hours into this game, easily, infact I am perhaps one of the best commanders, if I do say so myself, I drop ammo and health packets, and hardly lose a life on the map.

Plus I strategicly place turrets and sub bases, I like to have about 4 sub bases and 1 main base, this way, I can ppl spawn in different area's of a map, have phase gates, and even get heavy armor, and jet packs less than a few feet from an enemy base, I upgrade weapons and armor and what not, I love the commander's chair...hehe
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Oh, well, you have your own site, you can't possibly be a n00b. Just think of how much skill it took to find 20 bucks to regester that domain.

You're one of the best commanders? So, all the playtesters that have been playing for months don't even hold a candle to you? Wow, you must have mad skills. It's funny I haven't ever seen you post that remarkable, ground-breaking use of phase gates. I mean, linking bases? That's CRAZY! Can you get me a demo of your mad skills? That'd be soo cool to witness how much you own... Oh no! I stepped in some sarcasm!

Look newbie. Maybe if you made such intelligent comments and remarks as Flatline, and diddn't have a join date of less than 24 hours ago, I wouldn't take as much offense to this statement. But the fact that you claim to be better than a large precentage of the community, simply because you own a web site, rubs me the wrong way.

Zifnab · November 2002

First, my thoughts on the topic:
If both teams are experienced, it'd a pretty even game. The fact is, the vast majority of games are on public servers with a mix of skill levels, so there tends to be an imbalance, namely in favor of aliens. Why? For the marines to win, it's <i>required</i> that the commander know what he's doing. When I'm skulking around and I see a turret factory with an unprotected side, I chuckle to myself and think "Hah! Newbs!" and the proceed to wipe out their resource outpost single-handedly. Er, single clawed..ed..ly? Anyways. The original poster must play with some pretty crummy alien players if he thinks they have some kind of disadvantage. In general, 1 fade > 1 HA/HMG, if the fade has any smarts and makes hit and run attacks, although even if he rushes head on and claws at the marine, he can often come out on top.

The marine-in-vent-hitbox-bug would explain why I saw a marine back up into a vent while playing yesterday... I was confused as to why he did that, but I went and bit him a new one anyhow. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

Marines Are To Strong!

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