This plugin was developed to make combat competitive in a 4v4 format. <b>It was developed by peachy from the modNS.org Forums</b>. With mp_tournamentmode enabled the following changes take place:<ul><li>Aliens are limited to one (1) upgrade per chamber.</li><li>All second (2nd) and third (3rd) hive abilities cost two (2) points each.</li><li>Higher lifeform upgrades are limited to two (2) out of a possible three (3): lerk and fade, lerk and onos, or fade and onos.</li></ul>These changes were discussed and agreed upon by myself, Zunni, and puzl. This has been playtested in a 4v4 format and balances well for combat competitively.
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:blue'>v1.0.3 updated 06/21/05</span></span><ul><li>Plugin now works without tourneymode enabled.</li><li>Set cvar "mp_combatmode" to "1" to enable plugin.</li></ul><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:blue'>v1.0.4 updated 06/22/05</span></span><ul><li>Xp bug has been fixed</li></ul>This plugin was created for league-play combat and has been successfully playtested. It is available for download <a href='http://nsmod.ugleague.org/forums1/index.php?showtopic=155' target='_blank'>here</a>, and you will have to register.
I wanted to quote someone but I don't know how, so you guys might not get the whole context of this post. Someone said something like "Johnny FPSer can't pick up this game because it's so complex". Well, it was complex for EVERYONE who first started. Even the Terror guys. It was really complex for me too, I had no idea what I was doing. But the games atmosphere and setting was great and I kept playing. Kept on playing for a few years, and finally got good. The thing is, back then (I started in 1.04), it was "easier" to be a newb. The games lasted a LOT longer, and were much slower-paced. This meant you could just slowly go around and explore and stuff at your own pace. Nowadays, the average game is decided in about 10 minutes. I don't know what its like to be a newb nowadays in these short as hell games, but I imagine it's not very fun compared to being a newb back in the hour-long games.
Just wanted to add this after reading more of the thread: Something that MIGHT help. When someone is downloading or installing NS, have this somewhere they can PLAINLY see: "Warning: this game is difficult. It's not like your basic FPS games. When you first start playing, let people know you are new. Ask questions about the game, and LISTEN to people." Something like this...
<!--QuoteBegin-MrMakaveli+Aug 7 2005, 06:31 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrMakaveli @ Aug 7 2005, 06:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> One thing that would help: Stop accusing people that are new to the clan scene, that actually have some skill, of hacking. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> its very naive to accept that after a new clan gets served 4 times in a row in scrims some of their members suddenly learn to track celerity lerks perfectly
or something stupid like that. point is that hacking exists and especially amongst people new to the whole clanning scene, "pressure to perform" may take over a weaker mind.
even if youre an awesome shot at your favorite pub server, but havent played a single clan game, youre not going to be the top marine scorer and ownerer. theres a difference between shooting walker aliens and taking on 5 skulks in cargo
Well, your post makes complete sense. However, I just joined this clan. If they sucked before I joined, big deal. I had nothing to do with it. And it's not that extreme, I can't track celerity lerks. I actually get owned by lerks in most situations. But what you said, well not word for word, is exactly what I mean. You are saying a new person joins up and has skill (tracks celerity lerks which is an extreme and insulting way to say he is good) and people thinks he hacks.
<!--QuoteBegin-MrMakaveli+Aug 7 2005, 06:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrMakaveli @ Aug 7 2005, 06:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well, your post makes complete sense. However, I just joined this clan. If they sucked before I joined, big deal. I had nothing to do with it. And it's not that extreme, I can't track celerity lerks. I actually get owned by lerks in most situations. But what you said, well not word for word, is exactly what I mean. You are saying a new person joins up and has skill (tracks celerity lerks which is an extreme and insulting way to say he is good) and people thinks he hacks. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> but what i meant was that the new guy isnt going to be able to track that celerity lerk because he's never witnessed one before, or very rarely at least. the gap between pub and clan play is, while easy enough for anyone to cross, quite large.
Well in response to your edit. I am a great shot in pubs, I usually get really good scores, granted this IS mostly against walker skulks. But in scrims it's a different story. If you watch some scrims of mine, you will notice I don't do as well. I still do really good usually a little bit above a 1:1 ratio, 10 kills 9 deaths, stuff like that). I may seem excellent in pubs, but I am definitely not excellent in scrims. I am a useful marine, but not unstoppable like I am in pubs.
<!--QuoteBegin-MrMakaveli+Aug 7 2005, 06:59 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrMakaveli @ Aug 7 2005, 06:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well in response to your edit. I am a great shot in pubs, I usually get really good scores, granted this IS mostly against walker skulks. But in scrims it's a different story. If you watch some scrims of mine, you will notice I don't do as well. I still do really good usually a little bit above a 1:1 ratio, 10 kills 9 deaths, stuff like that). I may seem excellent in pubs, but I am definitely not excellent in scrims. I am a useful marine, but not unstoppable like I am in pubs. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> keep practicing.
oh and how on earth would i be able to watch your scrims? feel free to send demos over though. just to note, ive never seen you play and have no idea what clan youre in, and im not necessarily talking about you specifically
So you're saying just because someone is new to the clan scene and mostly a pubber, he's never seen a celerity lerk? Hilarious... I've been playing NS since 1.04. Of COURSE I've seen celerity lerks. And I pub on good servers. And there ARE good players in pubs that go celerity lerk. I've been in quite a few scrims, with celerity lerks. I CAN'T track celerity lerks, it's borderline impossible. The only way to kill them is to get em while they're attacking you, or when they stop for a second, or when they make a mistake. Whatever..
<!--QuoteBegin-MrMakaveli+Aug 7 2005, 07:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrMakaveli @ Aug 7 2005, 07:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So you're saying just because someone is new to the clan scene and mostly a pubber, he's never seen a celerity lerk? Hilarious... I've been playing NS since 1.04. Of COURSE I've seen celerity lerks. And I pub on good servers. And there ARE good players in pubs that go celerity lerk. I've been in quite a few scrims, with celerity lerks. I CAN'T track celerity lerks, it's borderline impossible. The only way to kill them is to get em while they're attacking you, or when they stop for a second, or when they make a mistake. Whatever.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> it was an example. and sure youve seen lerks flapping around, but very rarely have you seen someone actually knowing what theyre doing play
<!--QuoteBegin-comrade+Aug 7 2005, 07:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (comrade @ Aug 7 2005, 07:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ns won't go CPL because there are about 30 people in the world who can actually play it well <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> yeah, and theres about 2000 people in the world that play it at all
as little as i personally like co , i think the idea of a combat-league might help
for one, you need less players, means less trouble getting eveything organized two: co is easier, so its easier to get into competitive mindset and environment
after the competitive scene is established people will transfer to the ns-competitive scene because it offers more complexity
hm, sounds like wishful thinking, but imho competitive combat would quite be helping
After just reading the entire thread I felt I had to add some form of comment.
Firstly let me say that I have no interest in CPL or anything competitive when it comes to gaming. However, I know that it's important to keep CPL in mind as a <i>long term</i> goal.
It seems to be the general notion that NS has a steep learning curve. The reason being; it does. Everything about it is hard to grasp for a complete newcomer.
Compare it to Counter-Strike.
"What do I do?" "You try to shoot the other team players in the head."
But you won't even see anybody asking "what do I do" in counter-strike because it doesn't even need an explaination.
Now compare it to Natural Selection.
"What do I do?" "Well it's very complicated. Hmm where to start..."
Now think about Starcraft.
If you were to put a complete Starcraft newcomer on Battle.net straight into any given game and the first thing they'd think is "I'm lost," proceed to turn the game off and go play something where all you have to do is shoot the other team.
Now, I'd say Starcraft has a steeper learning curve than Natural Selection.
So what does Starcraft have that Natural Selection doesn't? <b>A single player campaign that exists purely to teach new players the basic mechanics of the game.</b> Key competitive skills aren't even touched upon - but they don't need to be. As long as you know how to play the game, it doesn't matter how good you are, or whether you've memorised every single hotkey.
What I'm trying to say is that all the tutorials and manuels in the world won't make newcomers enthusiastic about Natural Selection.
Try to imagine what it must be like for somebody who downloads and plays Natural Selection for the first time ever (I was lucky enough to have a friend show me the game first hand.)
Ok - so he connects to a fullish server with a decent ping... He joins marines and starts running about knowing only that he has to kill anything that's an alien... He proceeds to get owned by a single skulk ten times in a row... (At this point he has learned nothing about the game) He then thinks "whoa, these aliens are impossible to kill, I should try switching teams..." He switches to the alien side and starts running about knowing only that he has to kill anything that's a marine... He proceeds to get owned by a single marine ten times in a row... Finally he gets extremely annoyed and disappointed and decides to uninstall Natural Selection.
My conclusion is this: Give the newcomer another option. He's just been owned 20 times in a row and is just about to exit NS when he sees "Single Player Learning Mode" and decides to click it.
We all know what should be in this single player option (otherwise we wouldn't know how to play NS.) However here are some specifications I would advise. - Good fun (not just a pure learning experience - it's a game afterall.) - Some form of storyline integrated into it. - A chance to play every role offline before trying them online.
I had some other points to add but they seem to have escaped my mind, plus my time is running out.
I hope this didn't stray off topic too much - but I just want to be sure everybody remembers that CPL should be a <i>long term</i> goal for NS.
yeah, we all know <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
a kind of training level has long be wanted, and some where tried, bbut there was nothing which could be released afaik
Forget the CO. I think the NS will be a great game in MY GAMES LIST not like RICOCHET becouse it´s great to play with TEAMPLAY, ns is the best game for TEAM PLAY in HALF-LIFE games list...
About COMBAT and NS, Perhaps combat will be a great game for 1x1 in the CAL, i think it´s not will be better then NS in the CAL or CPL becouse we have the best players playing NS...
So if you forget this war betwen NS and COMBAT, NS WILL BE A GREATER GAME in the STEAM "MY GAMES LIST"
There is nothing wrong with NS:C going competitive, its not exactly going to be harmful if we have dedicated NS clans and dedicated NS:C clans, and ofcourse some will play both modes.
In its current state however, I believe NS:C can't go competitive, but there is a plugin, that limits the levels, and therefor upgrades, it makes for great gameplay.
Hummm i saw a COMBAT league sometime ago, i don´t know where, i think it´s here in brazil... But i think COMBAT never will be a CPL mode game and if will, ns will be too!
Let´s leave the time show us what going happen ! =)
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Aug 7 2005, 03:13 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Aug 7 2005, 03:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This plugin was developed to make combat competitive in a 4v4 format. <b>It was developed by peachy from the modNS.org Forums</b>. With mp_tournamentmode enabled the following changes take place:<ul>
</li><li>Aliens are limited to one (1) upgrade per chamber.
</li><li>All second (2nd) and third (3rd) hive abilities cost two (2) points each.
</li><li>Higher lifeform upgrades are limited to two (2) out of a possible three (3): lerk and fade, lerk and onos, or fade and onos.
</li></ul>These changes were discussed and agreed upon by myself, Zunni, and puzl. This has been playtested in a 4v4 format and balances well for combat competitively. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok, if you're going to limit it to 1 upgrade why bother? Just play normal ns. The entire point of having multiple upgrades is so you can have variability. They are like the different weapon classes. You can't play dod with just the kar and a thompson or you can't play cs with just the mp5 and the m4. All the variation that makes combat somewhat differnet is lost with this.
You're just pushing back the 3rd hive abilities. You can just have one dedicated gorge rush to the web ability and you can pretty much counter ANYTHING the marines throw at you. 7 Levels to gorge? You can get 3/2 upgrades and a HMG and resupply and the second web comes your game is over. Same with xeno. Why in the hell should you get experience for killing yourself close to the marines? The marine basically has one chance to kill you or he dies and you get exp. That is completely unreasonable.
Again. Dynamic game. You're making a static game out of this. This isn't ns. If the team wants to go all fades with no upgrades by golly go let them. It isn't going to hurt them but the fun of the game gets lost when you restrict what they're suppose to do.
Also, you have the big problem. Why are you required as a marine to defend your CC AS WELL AS attack the alien hive. It seems unfair that you need to defend AND attack and at the same time, you lose if you hit time limit.
I'm not here to put you down or patronize your plugin but honestly, when I see the changes you made to combat, I really wonder why? You're changing the game from what the developers made it. Just like how you did the same when you suggested the 50 level combat plugin with extra upgrades. That detracts so much from the normal NS or CO that people playing just the vanilla version get completely lost. Again back to the point, I believe combat has potential to be bigger and better than ns is currently because it requires smaller teams, it requires less knowledge and more skill(that is why cs and dod succeed). Basic tactics and you just build on skill. That is what a competitive built game is.
If NS among FPSs is the chess among checkers, then advertise it as such.
I was reminded of a of a guy who was playing on a pub one day. He said that the game was such BS and that aliens were overpowered. We told him that he should try to track aliens and predict their movement more, i.e. aim. He then proceeded to act almighty and say that he KNEW how to aim. That he was a CAL-I CS player. And no matter how much we tried to tell him that aiming in CS and NS were different, he just wouldnt' accept it. He still tried bursting skulks, he screamed that no-one could hit or kill anything moving that fast when it took 10 bullets to kill.
NS and the devs need to find out what they should advertise NS as. When you say FPS combined with RTS, nothing comes to mind, people think <u>either</u> FPS or RTS, not the wierd hybrid that it really is. When you say half-life mod, DoD and CS come to mind, and both combat systems are radically different from NS. (It's probably closer to Doom or AvP than anything HL has to offer)
I think alot of people who play NS play it because thier bored of the mindless deathmatches that almost all other FPSs are. Iounno, take a poll. Take the top few reasons people played NS in the first place and advertise it as such. And advertise it everywhere.
EDIT:: and figure it out before it hits mygames, so people KNOW that they're getting into a game that is radically different from almost every other FPS in history.
The competative community as it is in EU is struggling a great deal, many people are downloading and playing NS but so many of them just give up without considering any sort of competative play and resort to combat. Those who do make the step to competative play are few and far between with even smaller a %age of those moving to a strong level of competative play. At the other end of the scale, many people are leaving NS in the top tier clans with the number of clans being at its smallest for a long time. A few of the "old pros" are coming back every now and then, also some of these players are still being able to walk all over the "new top players", so i don't think the overall skill level has improved with the game too much either, people are just finding it harder to make the step or are losing interest more easily. I think the activity has a lot to blame as people don't have the oportunity to play similar level clans on a regular basis and improve as they did in the past. It's a exponential decline in higher level skilled clans.
I think a competative combat cup/league/ladder would be an EXELENT idea, the step could really introduce people to NS in competative play as it is FAR easier to pick up, the learning curve is a great deal less than that of NS, especially competatively. But as combat is at the moment a lot of changes would be needed to help. If we could introduce a LARGE number of players into the competative community, they wouldn't be anything close to as intimidated as they would have a large number of similar level teams to play, and as time goes on they would find it far easier to make the step to high skilled with the increased possible activity.
As for combat.
I would like to see combat have a closer idea to NS and i think it would need to for competative play if we wanted it to help out the NS side of competative play, otherwise i think it would just spawn a new competative community and the link wouldnt be crossed between combat and NS.
I have been trying to think up a "fun"ish mode of combat for a few months now. The obvious problem with combat is the amount of skillless or less skilled abilities and combinations that can be used. Cloak + focus, xenoside spam, early focus fades etc, they don't help combat and the only reason they are popular is that people can use them easily. Another problem that i have with combat is the fact it honestly doesn't help people ENOUGH when it comes to learning how to play NS. I think that combat was initially designed as a training program for NS, currently with that super skulks or multi SC upgrades available it makes people dependant on the upgrades they **** and become worse at NS.
What i feel needs to be done:
1stly, being able to have more than one upgrade from each chamber type doesn't help people learn how to use the upgrades correctly, it lets them learn how to use random combinations that can remove any element of skulking movement/scouting/tracking/dodging & positioning. Those are the 5 skills i think are core to an alien round, but combat as it is can remove the need for any of them with mass xeno,sof,cloak,silence and focus.
2ndly, teamwork involvement, their isn't enough positional importance with combat at the moment, rambos go wherever they want despite the aliens movement, as long as people are dieing every now and then the marines don't have to worry about any sort of map control, a great idea which works i think is territory, i haven't actually played it yet but i know the idea involves positional control -> improving teamwork -> helping on the step towards competative NS play.
Another way to improve teamwork is to impliment a larger focus on marine aggression and alien deffending. Smaller time limits and possibly the removal of protecting the CC would help this. This would work because marines would be forced to push on a kill, where aliens could relax and set up ambushes instead of the current rushing that is common, ambushes = teamwork and to counter ambushes the marines will need teamwork and positioning. The only problem with this is the high tech. With such a high level tech, teamwork isn't as important as one player can demolish the lower tech oporsition and hence tech up even further to control a game. If the max tech was lowered, a larger emphasis on teamwork would be needed.
Of course publics would rant and moan about a marine overpower, but soon they would realise they don't need the aggression they did in the past and can learn how to skulk more efficiently.
If the tech was lowered, it would be slightly simpler to learn also. With say, a max level of 6, there would be a far smaller number of counter upgrades to think about and more thought about movement and pressure. Also both teams could improve on base skills like lmg aim, lvl 0 sg and 1 hive skulking.
A few other things like resuply and possibly XP might be worth considering change to more reflect NS. Its not often i see a comm perfectly give a medpack to a full speed JP'er and things like this don't help people learn NS, without learning basic NS, clan play is just seen as a mountain they would rather avoid.
I think if changes like along these lines where implimented, a combat tournament could VERY much improve the competative scene in NS, as people can learn about NS from the start to a higher degree, they have more oportunity to learn about basic movement and teamwork. Also the game would be a lot easier to pick up without the possibility of a stupid comm and the insane maps for people to learn. After so long of people playing combat, their maturity and uderstanding of NS would improve and make NS FAR more appealing to them, especially competatively.
Here is what i have tried to get created for combat, i think it would improve combat for public players making it more appealing to clanners AND to create a larger possibility for competative play.
(I'm not saying to impliment these changes! just an example)
- Max level cap at level 6. - Allow only 1 upgrade chamber per type. - Jetpacks available on armour level 1. - Increase hive 2 abilities to 2 points. - Resupply only works on medpack or ammo requests and when static with a max of 1 med every 5-10 seconds (non stacking.) - Cloak upped to 2 points. - SG upped to 2 points but available on weapon level 0 <sg still needed before HMG>.
There are other things i would like to change but this is just a plugin that really does improve combat for a lot of people (althought incomplete.)
<!--QuoteBegin-Zephor+Aug 7 2005, 04:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zephor @ Aug 7 2005, 04:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Aug 7 2005, 03:13 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Aug 7 2005, 03:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This plugin was developed to make combat competitive in a 4v4 format. <b>It was developed by peachy from the modNS.org Forums</b>. With mp_tournamentmode enabled the following changes take place:<ul>
</li><li>Aliens are limited to one (1) upgrade per chamber.
</li><li>All second (2nd) and third (3rd) hive abilities cost two (2) points each.
</li><li>Higher lifeform upgrades are limited to two (2) out of a possible three (3): lerk and fade, lerk and onos, or fade and onos.
</li></ul>These changes were discussed and agreed upon by myself, Zunni, and puzl. This has been playtested in a 4v4 format and balances well for combat competitively. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok, if you're going to limit it to 1 upgrade why bother? Just play normal ns. The entire point of having multiple upgrades is so you can have variability. They are like the different weapon classes. You can't play dod with just the kar and a thompson or you can't play cs with just the mp5 and the m4. All the variation that makes combat somewhat differnet is lost with this.
You're just pushing back the 3rd hive abilities. You can just have one dedicated gorge rush to the web ability and you can pretty much counter ANYTHING the marines throw at you. 7 Levels to gorge? You can get 3/2 upgrades and a HMG and resupply and the second web comes your game is over. Same with xeno. Why in the hell should you get experience for killing yourself close to the marines? The marine basically has one chance to kill you or he dies and you get exp. That is completely unreasonable.
Again. Dynamic game. You're making a static game out of this. This isn't ns. If the team wants to go all fades with no upgrades by golly go let them. It isn't going to hurt them but the fun of the game gets lost when you restrict what they're suppose to do.
Also, you have the big problem. Why are you required as a marine to defend your CC AS WELL AS attack the alien hive. It seems unfair that you need to defend AND attack and at the same time, you lose if you hit time limit.
I'm not here to put you down or patronize your plugin but honestly, when I see the changes you made to combat, I really wonder why? You're changing the game from what the developers made it. Just like how you did the same when you suggested the 50 level combat plugin with extra upgrades. That detracts so much from the normal NS or CO that people playing just the vanilla version get completely lost. Again back to the point, I believe combat has potential to be bigger and better than ns is currently because it requires smaller teams, it requires less knowledge and more skill(that is why cs and dod succeed). Basic tactics and you just build on skill. That is what a competitive built game is.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Limiting upgrades to one per chamber is meant to do 2 things: bring the game closer to ns, and restrict the aliens to one upgade per chamber, preventing them from becoming so strong.
Increasing the cost of 2nd and 3rd hive abilities was also implemented to give the marines an edge. Aliens are given xp for xenocide because they got the kill, much like their other modes of attack.
The class restrictions were implemented to further balance the game.
Perhaps we should also remove the auto win for aliens at the end of the match if their hive still stands?
And thanks for crediting me with extralevels2, but I merely ported it to amxx.
Competitive Combat can work, and needs to work if NS is to make it into CPL.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- Max level cap at level 6. - Allow only 1 upgrade chamber per type. - Jetpacks available on armour level 1. - Increase hive 2 abilities to 2 points. - Resupply only works on medpack or ammo requests and when static with a max of 1 med every 5-10 seconds (non stacking.) - Cloak upped to 2 points. - SG upped to 2 points but available on weapon level 0 <sg still needed before HMG>. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Goo changes, it allow combat to be competitive, but the CPL idea is Teamplay games ! Isn't it ?
<!--QuoteBegin-JmmsbndZeroZeroSeven+Aug 7 2005, 01:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JmmsbndZeroZeroSeven @ Aug 7 2005, 01:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Out of the last 25 or so responses, ~23 are absolute trash. Can we get a mod to clean up this thread?
/nobody cares about you if you've never played competitive before //nobody cares about combat ///that combat plugin is retarded <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Just adding to the noise huh?
Good job trying to derail a thread that got back on track.
As for combat, I really don't think it's worth it to try and play it competitively. Not only does it take a plugin to make it work, but what comes next once we start our venture on this potentially slippery-slope? NS is where it's at, and NS is where it should stay at. Combat is nothing more than team DM.
Comments
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:blue'>v1.0.3 updated 06/21/05</span></span><ul><li>Plugin now works without tourneymode enabled.</li><li>Set cvar "mp_combatmode" to "1" to enable plugin.</li></ul><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:blue'>v1.0.4 updated 06/22/05</span></span><ul><li>Xp bug has been fixed</li></ul>This plugin was created for league-play combat and has been successfully playtested. It is available for download <a href='http://nsmod.ugleague.org/forums1/index.php?showtopic=155' target='_blank'>here</a>, and you will have to register.
Just wanted to add this after reading more of the thread: Something that MIGHT help. When someone is downloading or installing NS, have this somewhere they can PLAINLY see: "Warning: this game is difficult. It's not like your basic FPS games. When you first start playing, let people know you are new. Ask questions about the game, and LISTEN to people." Something like this...
its very naive to accept that after a new clan gets served 4 times in a row in scrims some of their members suddenly learn to track celerity lerks perfectly
or something stupid like that. point is that hacking exists and especially amongst people new to the whole clanning scene, "pressure to perform" may take over a weaker mind.
even if youre an awesome shot at your favorite pub server, but havent played a single clan game, youre not going to be the top marine scorer and ownerer. theres a difference between shooting walker aliens and taking on 5 skulks in cargo
but what i meant was that the new guy isnt going to be able to track that celerity lerk because he's never witnessed one before, or very rarely at least. the gap between pub and clan play is, while easy enough for anyone to cross, quite large.
of course there are exceptions
keep practicing.
oh and how on earth would i be able to watch your scrims? feel free to send demos over though. just to note, ive never seen you play and have no idea what clan youre in, and im not necessarily talking about you specifically
it was an example. and sure youve seen lerks flapping around, but very rarely have you seen someone actually knowing what theyre doing play
most lerks dont know what theyre doing
ns won't go CPL because there are about 30 people in the world who can actually play it well
ns won't go CPL because there are about 30 people in the world who can actually play it well <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah, and theres about 2000 people in the world that play it at all
-digz</span>
for one, you need less players, means less trouble getting eveything organized
two: co is easier, so its easier to get into competitive mindset and environment
after the competitive scene is established people will transfer to the ns-competitive scene because it offers more complexity
hm, sounds like wishful thinking, but imho competitive combat would quite be helping
Firstly let me say that I have no interest in CPL or anything competitive when it comes to gaming. However, I know that it's important to keep CPL in mind as a <i>long term</i> goal.
It seems to be the general notion that NS has a steep learning curve. The reason being; it does. Everything about it is hard to grasp for a complete newcomer.
Compare it to Counter-Strike.
"What do I do?"
"You try to shoot the other team players in the head."
But you won't even see anybody asking "what do I do" in counter-strike because it doesn't even need an explaination.
Now compare it to Natural Selection.
"What do I do?"
"Well it's very complicated. Hmm where to start..."
Now think about Starcraft.
If you were to put a complete Starcraft newcomer on Battle.net straight into any given game and the first thing they'd think is "I'm lost," proceed to turn the game off and go play something where all you have to do is shoot the other team.
Now, I'd say Starcraft has a steeper learning curve than Natural Selection.
So what does Starcraft have that Natural Selection doesn't? <b>A single player campaign that exists purely to teach new players the basic mechanics of the game.</b> Key competitive skills aren't even touched upon - but they don't need to be. As long as you know how to play the game, it doesn't matter how good you are, or whether you've memorised every single hotkey.
What I'm trying to say is that all the tutorials and manuels in the world won't make newcomers enthusiastic about Natural Selection.
Try to imagine what it must be like for somebody who downloads and plays Natural Selection for the first time ever (I was lucky enough to have a friend show me the game first hand.)
Ok - so he connects to a fullish server with a decent ping...
He joins marines and starts running about knowing only that he has to kill anything that's an alien...
He proceeds to get owned by a single skulk ten times in a row...
(At this point he has learned nothing about the game)
He then thinks "whoa, these aliens are impossible to kill, I should try switching teams..."
He switches to the alien side and starts running about knowing only that he has to kill anything that's a marine...
He proceeds to get owned by a single marine ten times in a row...
Finally he gets extremely annoyed and disappointed and decides to uninstall Natural Selection.
My conclusion is this:
Give the newcomer another option. He's just been owned 20 times in a row and is just about to exit NS when he sees "Single Player Learning Mode" and decides to click it.
We all know what should be in this single player option (otherwise we wouldn't know how to play NS.) However here are some specifications I would advise.
- Good fun (not just a pure learning experience - it's a game afterall.)
- Some form of storyline integrated into it.
- A chance to play every role offline before trying them online.
I had some other points to add but they seem to have escaped my mind, plus my time is running out.
I hope this didn't stray off topic too much - but I just want to be sure everybody remembers that CPL should be a <i>long term</i> goal for NS.
a kind of training level has long be wanted, and some where tried, bbut there was nothing which could be released afaik
Tsc tsc tsc !
Is the same thing since 3.0...
Forget the CO.
I think the NS will be a great game in MY GAMES LIST not like RICOCHET becouse it´s great to play with TEAMPLAY, ns is the best game for TEAM PLAY in HALF-LIFE games list...
About COMBAT and NS,
Perhaps combat will be a great game for 1x1 in the CAL, i think it´s not will be better then NS in the CAL or CPL becouse we have the best players playing NS...
So if you forget this war betwen NS and COMBAT, NS WILL BE A GREATER GAME in the STEAM "MY GAMES LIST"
<!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
In its current state however, I believe NS:C can't go competitive, but there is a plugin, that limits the levels, and therefor upgrades, it makes for great gameplay.
But i think COMBAT never will be a CPL mode game and if will, ns will be too!
Let´s leave the time show us what going happen !
=)
</li><li>Aliens are limited to one (1) upgrade per chamber.
</li><li>All second (2nd) and third (3rd) hive abilities cost two (2) points each.
</li><li>Higher lifeform upgrades are limited to two (2) out of a possible three (3): lerk and fade, lerk and onos, or fade and onos.
</li></ul>These changes were discussed and agreed upon by myself, Zunni, and puzl. This has been playtested in a 4v4 format and balances well for combat competitively.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, if you're going to limit it to 1 upgrade why bother? Just play normal ns. The entire point of having multiple upgrades is so you can have variability. They are like the different weapon classes. You can't play dod with just the kar and a thompson or you can't play cs with just the mp5 and the m4. All the variation that makes combat somewhat differnet is lost with this.
You're just pushing back the 3rd hive abilities. You can just have one dedicated gorge rush to the web ability and you can pretty much counter ANYTHING the marines throw at you. 7 Levels to gorge? You can get 3/2 upgrades and a HMG and resupply and the second web comes your game is over. Same with xeno. Why in the hell should you get experience for killing yourself close to the marines? The marine basically has one chance to kill you or he dies and you get exp. That is completely unreasonable.
Again. Dynamic game. You're making a static game out of this. This isn't ns. If the team wants to go all fades with no upgrades by golly go let them. It isn't going to hurt them but the fun of the game gets lost when you restrict what they're suppose to do.
Also, you have the big problem. Why are you required as a marine to defend your CC AS WELL AS attack the alien hive. It seems unfair that you need to defend AND attack and at the same time, you lose if you hit time limit.
I'm not here to put you down or patronize your plugin but honestly, when I see the changes you made to combat, I really wonder why? You're changing the game from what the developers made it. Just like how you did the same when you suggested the 50 level combat plugin with extra upgrades. That detracts so much from the normal NS or CO that people playing just the vanilla version get completely lost. Again back to the point, I believe combat has potential to be bigger and better than ns is currently because it requires smaller teams, it requires less knowledge and more skill(that is why cs and dod succeed). Basic tactics and you just build on skill. That is what a competitive built game is.
I was reminded of a of a guy who was playing on a pub one day. He said that the game was such BS and that aliens were overpowered. We told him that he should try to track aliens and predict their movement more, i.e. aim. He then proceeded to act almighty and say that he KNEW how to aim. That he was a CAL-I CS player. And no matter how much we tried to tell him that aiming in CS and NS were different, he just wouldnt' accept it. He still tried bursting skulks, he screamed that no-one could hit or kill anything moving that fast when it took 10 bullets to kill.
NS and the devs need to find out what they should advertise NS as. When you say FPS combined with RTS, nothing comes to mind, people think <u>either</u> FPS or RTS, not the wierd hybrid that it really is. When you say half-life mod, DoD and CS come to mind, and both combat systems are radically different from NS. (It's probably closer to Doom or AvP than anything HL has to offer)
I think alot of people who play NS play it because thier bored of the mindless deathmatches that almost all other FPSs are. Iounno, take a poll. Take the top few reasons people played NS in the first place and advertise it as such. And advertise it everywhere.
EDIT:: and figure it out before it hits mygames, so people KNOW that they're getting into a game that is radically different from almost every other FPS in history.
/nobody cares about you if you've never played competitive before
//nobody cares about combat
///that combat plugin is retarded
I think a competative combat cup/league/ladder would be an EXELENT idea, the step could really introduce people to NS in competative play as it is FAR easier to pick up, the learning curve is a great deal less than that of NS, especially competatively. But as combat is at the moment a lot of changes would be needed to help. If we could introduce a LARGE number of players into the competative community, they wouldn't be anything close to as intimidated as they would have a large number of similar level teams to play, and as time goes on they would find it far easier to make the step to high skilled with the increased possible activity.
As for combat.
I would like to see combat have a closer idea to NS and i think it would need to for competative play if we wanted it to help out the NS side of competative play, otherwise i think it would just spawn a new competative community and the link wouldnt be crossed between combat and NS.
I have been trying to think up a "fun"ish mode of combat for a few months now. The obvious problem with combat is the amount of skillless or less skilled abilities and combinations that can be used. Cloak + focus, xenoside spam, early focus fades etc, they don't help combat and the only reason they are popular is that people can use them easily. Another problem that i have with combat is the fact it honestly doesn't help people ENOUGH when it comes to learning how to play NS. I think that combat was initially designed as a training program for NS, currently with that super skulks or multi SC upgrades available it makes people dependant on the upgrades they **** and become worse at NS.
What i feel needs to be done:
1stly, being able to have more than one upgrade from each chamber type doesn't help people learn how to use the upgrades correctly, it lets them learn how to use random combinations that can remove any element of skulking movement/scouting/tracking/dodging & positioning. Those are the 5 skills i think are core to an alien round, but combat as it is can remove the need for any of them with mass xeno,sof,cloak,silence and focus.
2ndly, teamwork involvement, their isn't enough positional importance with combat at the moment, rambos go wherever they want despite the aliens movement, as long as people are dieing every now and then the marines don't have to worry about any sort of map control, a great idea which works i think is territory, i haven't actually played it yet but i know the idea involves positional control -> improving teamwork -> helping on the step towards competative NS play.
Another way to improve teamwork is to impliment a larger focus on marine aggression and alien deffending. Smaller time limits and possibly the removal of protecting the CC would help this. This would work because marines would be forced to push on a kill, where aliens could relax and set up ambushes instead of the current rushing that is common, ambushes = teamwork and to counter ambushes the marines will need teamwork and positioning. The only problem with this is the high tech. With such a high level tech, teamwork isn't as important as one player can demolish the lower tech oporsition and hence tech up even further to control a game. If the max tech was lowered, a larger emphasis on teamwork would be needed.
Of course publics would rant and moan about a marine overpower, but soon they would realise they don't need the aggression they did in the past and can learn how to skulk more efficiently.
If the tech was lowered, it would be slightly simpler to learn also. With say, a max level of 6, there would be a far smaller number of counter upgrades to think about and more thought about movement and pressure. Also both teams could improve on base skills like lmg aim, lvl 0 sg and 1 hive skulking.
A few other things like resuply and possibly XP might be worth considering change to more reflect NS. Its not often i see a comm perfectly give a medpack to a full speed JP'er and things like this don't help people learn NS, without learning basic NS, clan play is just seen as a mountain they would rather avoid.
I think if changes like along these lines where implimented, a combat tournament could VERY much improve the competative scene in NS, as people can learn about NS from the start to a higher degree, they have more oportunity to learn about basic movement and teamwork. Also the game would be a lot easier to pick up without the possibility of a stupid comm and the insane maps for people to learn. After so long of people playing combat, their maturity and uderstanding of NS would improve and make NS FAR more appealing to them, especially competatively.
Here is what i have tried to get created for combat, i think it would improve combat for public players making it more appealing to clanners AND to create a larger possibility for competative play.
(I'm not saying to impliment these changes! just an example)
- Max level cap at level 6.
- Allow only 1 upgrade chamber per type.
- Jetpacks available on armour level 1.
- Increase hive 2 abilities to 2 points.
- Resupply only works on medpack or ammo requests and when static with a max of 1 med every 5-10 seconds (non stacking.)
- Cloak upped to 2 points.
- SG upped to 2 points but available on weapon level 0 <sg still needed before HMG>.
There are other things i would like to change but this is just a plugin that really does improve combat for a lot of people (althought incomplete.)
</li><li>Aliens are limited to one (1) upgrade per chamber.
</li><li>All second (2nd) and third (3rd) hive abilities cost two (2) points each.
</li><li>Higher lifeform upgrades are limited to two (2) out of a possible three (3): lerk and fade, lerk and onos, or fade and onos.
</li></ul>These changes were discussed and agreed upon by myself, Zunni, and puzl. This has been playtested in a 4v4 format and balances well for combat competitively.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, if you're going to limit it to 1 upgrade why bother? Just play normal ns. The entire point of having multiple upgrades is so you can have variability. They are like the different weapon classes. You can't play dod with just the kar and a thompson or you can't play cs with just the mp5 and the m4. All the variation that makes combat somewhat differnet is lost with this.
You're just pushing back the 3rd hive abilities. You can just have one dedicated gorge rush to the web ability and you can pretty much counter ANYTHING the marines throw at you. 7 Levels to gorge? You can get 3/2 upgrades and a HMG and resupply and the second web comes your game is over. Same with xeno. Why in the hell should you get experience for killing yourself close to the marines? The marine basically has one chance to kill you or he dies and you get exp. That is completely unreasonable.
Again. Dynamic game. You're making a static game out of this. This isn't ns. If the team wants to go all fades with no upgrades by golly go let them. It isn't going to hurt them but the fun of the game gets lost when you restrict what they're suppose to do.
Also, you have the big problem. Why are you required as a marine to defend your CC AS WELL AS attack the alien hive. It seems unfair that you need to defend AND attack and at the same time, you lose if you hit time limit.
I'm not here to put you down or patronize your plugin but honestly, when I see the changes you made to combat, I really wonder why? You're changing the game from what the developers made it. Just like how you did the same when you suggested the 50 level combat plugin with extra upgrades. That detracts so much from the normal NS or CO that people playing just the vanilla version get completely lost. Again back to the point, I believe combat has potential to be bigger and better than ns is currently because it requires smaller teams, it requires less knowledge and more skill(that is why cs and dod succeed). Basic tactics and you just build on skill. That is what a competitive built game is.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Limiting upgrades to one per chamber is meant to do 2 things: bring the game closer to ns, and restrict the aliens to one upgade per chamber, preventing them from becoming so strong.
Increasing the cost of 2nd and 3rd hive abilities was also implemented to give the marines an edge. Aliens are given xp for xenocide because they got the kill, much like their other modes of attack.
The class restrictions were implemented to further balance the game.
Perhaps we should also remove the auto win for aliens at the end of the match if their hive still stands?
And thanks for crediting me with extralevels2, but I merely ported it to amxx.
Competitive Combat can work, and needs to work if NS is to make it into CPL.
- Allow only 1 upgrade chamber per type.
- Jetpacks available on armour level 1.
- Increase hive 2 abilities to 2 points.
- Resupply only works on medpack or ammo requests and when static with a max of 1 med every 5-10 seconds (non stacking.)
- Cloak upped to 2 points.
- SG upped to 2 points but available on weapon level 0 <sg still needed before HMG>.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Goo changes, it allow combat to be competitive, but the CPL idea is Teamplay games ! Isn't it ?
/nobody cares about you if you've never played competitive before
//nobody cares about combat
///that combat plugin is retarded <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just adding to the noise huh?
As for combat, I really don't think it's worth it to try and play it competitively. Not only does it take a plugin to make it work, but what comes next once we start our venture on this potentially slippery-slope? NS is where it's at, and NS is where it should stay at. Combat is nothing more than team DM.