Cpl Ns
the_x5
the Xzianthian Join Date: 2004-03-02 Member: 27041Members, Constellation
the Xzianthian Join Date: 2004-03-02 Member: 27041Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">what's wrong and how to fix it</div><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So what is keeping such a unique and interesting game out of the CPL? One could point to a few game bugs and flaws, especially the faulty HLTV system. HLTV does not work properly with NS- while it is possible to watch first person and third person chase, spectators are unable to see map overviews, player health or armor, or the minimap, among others. NS spectators have struggled for a long time with the difficulty of not being able to see much in a match, and this is certainly something that the CPL would take into consideration.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is that it? No way that's the only thing. I've been out of the loop of competitive gamming loop for awhile but I'm pretty sure NS still hasn't gone pro (CPL), at least I have seen any evidence of this in my google searches. And given the atrocious recent ratio of forfeitures to total active teams in CAL this is cause for great concern, not just for me but for us as a whole community. (one would hope)
So, I propose we re-open discussions on how to reform, repair, and grow the NS competitive scene. What's going wrong and how do we fix the problems? If NASA can do it, we can do it. Let's go. Talk:
Is that it? No way that's the only thing. I've been out of the loop of competitive gamming loop for awhile but I'm pretty sure NS still hasn't gone pro (CPL), at least I have seen any evidence of this in my google searches. And given the atrocious recent ratio of forfeitures to total active teams in CAL this is cause for great concern, not just for me but for us as a whole community. (one would hope)
So, I propose we re-open discussions on how to reform, repair, and grow the NS competitive scene. What's going wrong and how do we fix the problems? If NASA can do it, we can do it. Let's go. Talk:
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
oh wait-
oh wait- <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
oh god help us we agree
Is that it? No way that's the only thing. I've been out of the loop of competitive gamming loop for awhile but I'm pretty sure NS still hasn't gone pro (CPL), at least I have seen any evidence of this in my google searches. And given the atrocious recent ratio of forfeitures to total active teams in CAL this is cause for great concern, not just for me but for us as a whole community. (one would hope)
So, I propose we re-open discussions on how to reform, repair, and grow the NS competitive scene. What's going wrong and how do we fix the problems? If NASA can do it, we can do it. Let's go. Talk: <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm pretty sure its because not only is the clan scene slowly dying (or stagnate), the game is balanced for the lowest common denominator, this is also one of the most violently anti-clan communitys I have ever seen.
Its not a total fix..but would help.
The purpose of the article was not simply to make complaints or to spark resentment about the perceived slow progress or inefficiencies of the developer team in addressing the concerns of the competitive community (which are admittedly difficult to ascertain even when asked for). It was meant instead as encouragement- an evaluation of the current state of the game and how it measures up to games considered "professional" quality. And while the language is very broad and general, without detailing too many specifics regarding gameplay and mechanics and all that, it does provide an overview of the game's appeal and potential. I'm sure we can all agree that the game has amazing potential.
I am glad that someone has had the presence of mind to ask about solutions. Unfortunately I don't have any other than "stick with it, wait for My Games and wait for NS:S." That to me seems like the way to go.
News Flash: Guess who owns PK development? That's right (CPL) CPL has full control of PK's development. Anything they want will go into the game.
Here is why NS Is not CPL worthy (dont quote me)
1.) HLTV is not working nor ready to demonstrate the full experience of natural selection. Watching the NFL through one cameraman with no tripod on the field is not fun. You miss 80% of the game.
2.) Look how many people play ns. We have 34 teams in CAL. We have barely a 5th of the number of servers and players of DoD at any given time. CAL is considered the qualifiers for CPL. CPL is HUGE. Why would they make a multimillion dollar investment on a game that has 12 teams that even know how to play the game to a more skilled level? FFS we can't even support a invite division with the number of teams that come and go every season.
3.) Money Money Money. CS, CoD, PK are all backed by sponsors. Huge companies put money in so that people play those games and show off what their hardware can do. Does NS have a sponsor? Does NS have some badical graphics engine or pretty lights to show people? No. This is how CAL/CPL sees ns right now. Until ns:s comes out NS has NO potential for growth, NO potential for any sort of revenue for their company, and NO potential for any publicity. People will be watching TEAM 3D take on the other big clan on cs. Not 2 no name ns clans screaming at each other about ping and scripts.
4.) Does this league and this community look like anything to be taken seriously?
For those who read what I just posted.There are ways to get CAL to recognize NS. Get teams into CAL. Stop being jerks to those new teams and support them. If someone asks some retarded **** question answer it. If someone is watching HLTV and asks a question, take it upon yourself to answer him. WHEN, yes WHEN NS goes to My Games there will be a HUGE amount of people who will download the game and give it a shot. Lets hope we can drag a bunch of them into competitive NS. We dont need 18519851985 more level 50 combat servers.
the truth hurts
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->ok, just go ahead and get the devs to listen<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
will happen long before this,
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Stop being jerks to those new teams and support them. If someone asks some retarded **** question answer it. If someone is watching HLTV and asks a question, take it upon yourself to answer him.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ever wonder if there's a connection between the two?
Edit: Of course it goes without saying that devs never listen bla bla bla ruins ns bla bla bla conspiracy bla bla never play the game etc.
Edit: Of course it goes without saying that devs never listen bla bla bla ruins ns bla bla bla conspiracy bla bla never play the game etc. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't believe thats true either to an extent, however I know you'd never admit it, but this community does have a HUGE fissure between the normal ns'er and a clan player. Generally all the insults and assholishness I encounter I ignore. I've been playing this game since 02, and in a clan for neaarly 2 years, I've been, and still continue to be, insulted regardless of skill level, its just a fact of life in cal-ns and if you take the internet too seriously, yeah its going to make you quit and forget it.
Honestly, about the dev's not caring about NS? Utter crap, if they didn't care they wouldn't spend the time on the game, without pay. What IS true in my opinion is the devs are seriously disconnected from the clan scene. Badly. Having a few PTs and devs on cal teams dosen't mean you suddenly are able to balance for the highest common denominator.
An example of the current balance scheme for ns is the new hand grenades. 2 per Marine, 5 marines in a cal match. 10 res to upgrade. So basically each nade costs 1 res for the first wave, after that its free. 10 Grenades bring a hive down to 1/3. Toss in another 20 res in shotguns (30 res total spent) And you have hive down. In pubs this will most likely never happen, but I foresee many new strats surrounding the VERY generous grenades.
I truely think the veterans program should be brought back circa 1.04. 1 Person from each of the top 10 cal teams.
edit: I also want to add that the hypocrisy in NS right now should really be considered, I mean, there's a scripting forum, but a cvar mp_blockscripts. If you want NS to thrive, get rid of that garbage, find a way to stop rate abuse/marcos/_special. Include a 3 jump in the game like Science and Industry did.
I garuentee you that the seperation between sub-communities would dissolve
Do you mean by this, the top tier clans abuse lower clans and public?
Its odd that this isn't mirrored in europe exactly. Usually we who play in the highest division, are generally good guys, its when we go to the lower divisions, and to some extent even division 2, that the bad attitude players appear, the players that by some reason, believe themselves to be better than everyone, unfortunately, for some reason they think this means that the word noob, becomes the largest and most devistating insult they can ever throw at someone.
If you look at our league table last season, the 6 teams in division 1: Knife, <3, levitacus, boonsquad, ownage and netpoint, I can name 3 players from these teams who comes under the category of "assholishness" during play, clan or pub. We are assumed to <u>all</u> be like that, sure, but we aren't. <i>Promise</i>.
Then missing out division 2, 3 and 4, we look at division 5 and 6, both of these divisions players are all great people, and if I ever decide to leave a "top" tier clan, then one of these is probably what I'd try out to play in.
Looking in the middle, no so much division 2, but definately 3 and 4, The irony of division 3 being the team that topped that table isn't this way at all, they play to play, not to win, and they always do well in their games. Has the majority of players who fall under your category communist, the players who as I said before, aren't quite cut out for equal level play, and call everyone noob, more irony is the clan that would have been relegated from division 4, if 2 of that divisions clans hadn't folded, is the worst case of this I have witnessed in Europe.
Edit - This doesn't in any way cover the abuse that we recieve on public, every ounce of our experience means nothing to them at all, just today, someone was swearing and cursing at me, because I killed him at horse shoe -We all know where skulks are likely to hide at horse shoe- I came down the ramp, glanced left saw him, killed him. Of course this automatically means I have ESP or whatever he said, and gives him the right to abuse me.
This happens all the time, but being who we are, we just ignore it completely. You can't play Natural Selection without having the ability to ignore people these days, otherwise you just drag yourself through the same gutter they dragged themselves through.
Do you mean by this, the top tier clans abuse lower clans and public?
Its odd that this isn't mirrored in europe exactly. Usually we who play in the highest division, are generally good guys, its when we go to the lower divisions, and to some extent even division 2, that the bad attitude players appear, the players that by some reason, believe themselves to be better than everyone, unfortunately, for some reason they think this means that the word noob, becomes the largest and most devistating insult they can ever throw at someone.
If you look at our league table last season, the 6 teams in division 1: Knife, <3, levitacus, boonsquad, ownage and netpoint, I can name 3 players from these teams who comes under the category of "assholishness" during play, clan or pub. We are assumed to <u>all</u> be like that, sure, but we aren't. <i>Promise</i>.
Then missing out division 2, 3 and 4, we look at division 5 and 6, both of these divisions players are all great people, and if I ever decide to leave a "top" tier clan, then one of these is probably what I'd try out to play in.
Looking in the middle, no so much division 2, but definately 3 and 4, The irony of division 3 being the team that topped that table isn't this way at all, they play to play, not to win, and they always do well in their games. Has the majority of players who fall under your category communist, the players who as I said before, aren't quite cut out for equal level play, and call everyone noob, more irony is the clan that would have been relegated from division 4, if 2 of that divisions clans hadn't folded, is the worst case of this I have witnessed in Europe. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If by abuse, you mean insult then yes. Actually, thats too much of a generalization, of all 13 teams in cal-ns delta, I can only think of 5-6 people who have habitual e-p33n issues.
Take CS for example, no matter at which level you play, the models and the guns work the same way. In NS however, the fade hitbox is radically different for someone proficient at the game. The knowing player will be able to hit the fade even though it is ducking. The average public player wont.
Now regardless of the fact that I think cloaking is a flawed concept in NS only making for boring games, the reason behind the latest change to cloaking (from 90 to 100% base cloaking) was a very good step in the right direction. You need to make the game availiable to everyone.
Dumb the game down. Yes I hate the thought of it too, but that's the only way to make the game popular to the mainstream audience (and with that popularity comes the money). NS is nowhere close to a streamlined game.
Its good to hear that its not a majority, I have and still do, believe that the highest level clans should need to be an example for the rest, it is after all their HLTV that will be being viewed by more people, and to some extent people look up to them.
So is it like here, and its the... "wannabe" (for need of a better word please =/) players that act the most like this?
Of course grenades may have a huge impact, and that would be good. We're following a philosophy that Blizzard has executed in a very successful manner: Buff unused features to a point where they become used and "played out" so that all issues may arise and dealt with. I personally believe that we will nerf the 'nades not too far into the future, but how much and when depends on how well they perform in various situations.
In all honesty, the best playtest for balance is the actual playing of game after release date, because it is absurd to address it during the development period, while features are under development. And I'd hate to hold back a release two months while a small group playtest the balance.
Whether we're disconnected or not from the competitive scene; I don't feel that's acurate, but that'd be words against words so let's just leave the difference in opinions there.
You mention built-in 3jump as a specific game mechanical option, and it is noted.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The reason we defend ourselves and our views on the game is, believe it or not, that we care for the game, and the community, perhaps more than anyone, we don't want to see something that could potentially be detrimental to the community. Our community.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am quoting this here as I think that the competitive players just don't mean "You don't understand competitive play", but more "You don't understand what we will try to do, to keep this community together"
I personally believe you have a very valid point.
I agree, it needs to come to a point where only a players experience and ability, make him stand out from the rest.
In the past, there was a motivated and moderately organized effort to welcome and tutor new players in the NS community. Players took it upon themselves to sacrifice some of their valuable game time to give helpful instructions and answer questions to players who were clearly new. There were even "clannish" communities started specifically to join servers and spend their time supporting newbies.
This attitude has been wiped out almost completely. This isn't a clan issue per se, as servers with a solid set of regulars are more than willing to berate and lash out at new players who don't follow their instructions to the letter. But I do think that a serious and wide scale effort from the clan community to clean up this mess could really spark the competetive scene.
Want people to join in competitions to increase the branch sizes? Get people to WANT to join in competitions. Promises of glory and bragging rights isn't enough. Don't promise them friendlyness and introduction to the "in" crowd, SHOW them. Practice what you preach and lead by example. Tired of people accusing you of hax and ESP? After an accusation, give them detailed explanations of how and why you check certain corners or why you wait at the end of a long hallway with your reticle resting in a certain spot. These things aren't secrets within the clan community but many pubbers haven't had access to this kind of information. If they had someone giving them suggestions and not orders, along with tactical explanations, combined with genuine humility, the level of respect would grow quickly.
Create an environment where basic players get excited and appreciative to see a vet icon or clan tag next to someone's name on their server.
I know these issues aren't exclusively the fault of competitive players and it shouldn't have to be their burden to fix the problem but, from where I sit, they are in the most appropriate position to solve it.
I agree we need to fix it, but its just not that easy, for every step we can make, the idiots who belittle and attack the public players will cause 5 steps backwards.
The only way I can think for getting this to not happen at all, would be a mutual agreement from all the higher up clans on all the continents, to keep these people out of the community. Maybe have leagues enforce a rule, that offers the offenders a nice 6 month suspention, WE need to remove the antagonists from the clans, however skilled or not they are shouldn't matter. And even although it removes another person from the community, so be it?
We are at a stage now with NS that soon there will be a huge influx of players, I am 90% confident of that, these people are reason enough to get the idiots out of the clans, if they make their own clan, fine, just don't play them. They will soon get bored.
Go for passive-aggressive exile.
I agree we need to fix it, but its just not that easy, for every step we can make, the idiots who belittle and attack the public players will cause 5 steps backwards.
The only way I can think for getting this to not happen at all, would be a mutual agreement from all the higher up clans on all the continents, to keep these people out of the community. Maybe have leagues enforce a rule, that offers the offenders a nice 6 month suspention, WE need to remove the antagonists from the clans, however skilled or not they are shouldn't matter. And even although it removes another person from the community, so be it?
We are at a stage now with NS that soon there will be a huge influx of players, I am 90% confident of that, these people are reason enough to get the idiots out of the clans, if they make their own clan, fine, just don't play them. They will soon get bored.
Go for passive-aggressive exile. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
amen to that
Just how can we go about things then?
How can we fix things? There isn't long to go before we get another push of impressionable new players, and by then, it would be a damn sight harder to make right any wrongs.
edit - I would like to know, as we can start pretty much right away, all it'll take is conversations with clan leaders, and we can sort it.
And I would like a solution to the divide that stops lower division clans from wanting to play and learn from higher division clans. I've tried talking it out with them, even giving them help.
1. Release smaller client-side patches more often <b>OR</b> Fix things faster. I know that's a really tall order, but I think it needs to happen. Hire more coders if you need to. This is going to be particularly the case after My Games I think.
2. Release current development versions for playtesting in the CAL preseason. I bet you'd get a lot of clans forming to see the new stuff, and the new features would get compeititive testing prior to their public release. Still do all your final public testing with the consties, as we need that lovin'.
3. CAL admins, make rules against flaming on the forums and in IRC. The signal to noise ratio is very very low.
2. Development versions are usually not in a very playable state, as they way too often have huge gamebreaking bugs in them.
2. Development versions are usually not in a very playable state, as they way too often have huge gamebreaking bugs in them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. I was under the impression that things like revamping the onos were a lack of coding time. Is this inaccurate?
2. The CAL preseason comes rarely enough that I bet it would be feasible to polish things up temporarily. You'd have to rethink the development processes a little bit, but maybe this is a good thing? You'd have regular milestones to meet for fixing bugs. This would also help if the development model tended towards smaller more regular patches. You could implement 1~2 features, fix the bugs, push it out.
Since extralevels2 coupled with extralevels2_rework is now running on 32.4% of all NS servers, I guess we may as well blame it on the declining clan scene, in addition to the the current decline in ns overall... <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->