Balance Issue

minscus · July 2005

I just recently heard some guy on some server say that ns is close to balance. Also some other guy wrote on these forums that marine > skulk in combat so the only option a skulk has is to ambush.
I think these people are probably right, however these things create a bit of a problem put together. Any CS or Quake player can play a marine with some success, but no one can play an alien well right away. The game may be balanced in the eyes of experienced player but I think new players who keep dying as aliens without killing a single marine think differently. This game isnt all about fragging and I like that, but you cant really play well if you cant frag.
So my question is: do you think the game developers should take newbies into their balance considerations?

TheJim · July 2005

in this case i think it should stay as it is. They are playing a new game they should expect to die, it is called learning! They will get better the more they play and seeing some skulks own 4 - 5 marines without a problem encourages the new players that they can do the same if they play and get better. Well thats the case on my server anyways!

The_Finch · July 2005

Balancing for the lowest common denominator isn't always a good idea and in this case, generally ignores certain aspects that were considered when balancing takes place.

Most accusations of marine bias occur from people who play exclusively on large servers with 12 players or more per team. The game was balanced with 6-8 players per team in mind and at high population levels, the resource system sort of breaks down and grinds the aliens to a halt. The higher population levels also mean that marines can cover more ground and restrict the alien mobility advantage, which is a rather signficant thing to lose.

The game is, at the populations it was balanced for, slightly alien biased. This stems largely from fades being so powerful, especially when the second hive goes up and they get the armor boost and meta. While the learning curve for aliens is definitely steeper, the rewards are much higher when you can push a fade or lerk to its performance limits.

BadMouth · July 2005

NS is definately not balanced right now. It is hard to balance since each side is unique.

Anyway, about balancing the game to suit newbies is not a good idea. Everybody was a newbie once and they just have to learn how to get better at it.

Look at CS and see all those AWP pros. They just headshot everybody. The game isn't balanced around the newbies. It's all about practice.

aeroripper · July 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>in this case i think it should stay as it is. They are playing a new game they should expect to die, it is called learning! They will get better the more they play and seeing some skulks own 4 - 5 marines without a problem encourages the new players that they can do the same if they play and get better. Well thats the case on my server anyways! </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

QFT, also skulks can go ehad to head with marines they just have to ambush unless your a really good bunnyhopper and a pretty average marine is firing at you. Nothing is more satisfying than waiting on a ceiling and killing a totally oblivious marine <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' />

Mentar · July 2005

the problem is at some point or another you have to attack, then what good does sitting on the ceiling waiting do while they're turreting up your potential second hive or building sieges.

and waiting on the ceiling is easily countered by a marine thats smart enough to look up. if he bothers to look up he can easily kill you before you land on him.

NGE · July 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mentar @ Jul 30 2005, 01:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> the problem is at some point or another you have to attack, then what good does sitting on the ceiling waiting do while they're turreting up your potential second hive or building sieges.

and waiting on the ceiling is easily countered by a marine thats smart enough to look up. if he bothers to look up he can easily kill you before you land on him.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
So don't let them into siege position? Go in before/after the fade does his dance? Don't go to the VERY TOP OF THE CEILING for your ambush, and attack as they round the corner/right before they enter the door?

Many things work wonders.

Swiftspear · July 2005

Attack from vents and any little alcoves in the walls you can find. Wall walking makes skulks masters of innovation in terms of thier attack angles. If you must run in, get in a group and make multiple fast moving targets for the marines to deal with.

ultranewb · July 2005

The problem is a new player will play marines better than aliens - there's a few reasons for this.

First, not too many online FPSs require stealth and not too many FPS players even think in terms of stealth. Most new skulk players need to be sneaky to be effective. Secondly, the skulk isn't an effective rambo - he needs help. Even the simplest of diversions work wonders on ever experienced players.

Third, and it's a big one, the alien implementation still sucks. Your "crosshair" as a skulk is a full screen row of teeth. You'd think that if you see a marine anywhere in front of you and you bite - that you would hit the marine. This, unfortunately, isn't the case. Your field of view is large and the teeth don't represent anything accept something that blinds you. The bite is oriented around the center of the screen in what appears to be a cone shape. Your perceived distance from the target also isn't accurate at all, you'd think the closer you are the better your chances of registering a bite would be - this also isn't the case. At the maximum distance for registering a hit, bites aimed lower than parallel to the target will MISS yet bites aimed upward will HIT. This completely goes against any euclidian measurement in 2d or 3d space. In my opinon, bite is <b>broken</b> and needs to be redesigned.

GoldenShadow · July 2005

Another thing is that knife kills are getting cheap I did my skulk dance and dodge his entire LMG and pistol clips, and barely survived at like 1 HP or something, and when I went in for the kill, he pulled out his knife and stabbed me before I could finish him off. This is becoming way too common.

Dreya · July 2005

Well, as for knife kills, the bite range is longer than a knife's but most people still try to get as close as they can before they bite. This goes along with the skulk being difficult to learn. You have to back off when they pull out a knife but be in their face so they miss most of the time with the lmg and pistol. However, I don't really see much of a problem with the knife itself. Like ultranewb said, bite needs to be redesigned. Most people who die to knife kills do so because they bite like they would expect the bite to occur in reality. If it actually resulted in a bite like that, there wouldn't be missed bites and (I'm assuming) knife kills wouldn't be as prevalent.

joee · July 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (GoldenShadow @ Jul 30 2005, 04:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Another thing is that knife kills are getting cheap I did my skulk dance and dodge his entire LMG and pistol clips, and barely survived at like 1 HP or something, and when I went in for the kill, he pulled out his knife and stabbed me before I could finish him off. This is becoming way too common.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
this is less common then ever

StoatBringer · July 2005

I think the game is probably as balanced as it can be, with two completely different teams.

The balance can change completely depending on the skill of the players, the skill of the comm, the map being played, and the way the numbers of players change as the game progresses.

Some maps confer a slight advantage on the aliens (lots of vents and ambush points), some on the marines (siege points and long corridors). The only way maps could ever be truly balanced is to make them symmetrical, like CTF maps, but that would be no good for NS games.

The developers regularly tweak the damage/armour settings to bring things more in line, but generally I think it's as balanced as a game like this could get.

XCan · July 2005

3 knife slashes to kill a vanilla skulk.
3 bites to kill a vanilla marine...

tankefugl · July 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ultranewb @ Jul 30 2005, 09:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Your perceived distance from the target also isn't accurate at all, you'd think the closer you are the better your chances of registering a bite would be - this also isn't the case. At the maximum distance for registering a hit, bites aimed lower than parallel to the target will MISS yet bites aimed upward will HIT. This completely goes against any euclidian measurement in 2d or 3d space. In my opinon, bite is <b>broken</b> and needs to be redesigned.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Care to elaborate and post a bug report?

Ots · July 2005

i heard a yawn when i woke up this morning.

joee · July 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (XCan @ Jul 31 2005, 05:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> 3 knife slashes to kill a vanilla skulk.
3 bites to kill a vanilla marine... </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
im pretty sure its 4 now

30 + 30 - 1 + 30 = 89
knife , knife , regen , knife

or something im lazy and bad at doin this for a forum, but im pretty sure the regen makes you live with 1 hp.

CommunistWithAGun · July 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (GoldenShadow @ Jul 30 2005, 04:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Another thing is that knife kills are getting cheap I did my skulk dance and dodge his entire LMG and pistol clips, and barely survived at like 1 HP or something, and when I went in for the kill, he pulled out his knife and stabbed me before I could finish him off. This is becoming way too common.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Uh, skulks are made sheerly to ambush hence the low health, if you got shanked at close range its your own fault because knife range is < than bite range.

XCan · July 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (joee @ Jul 31 2005, 04:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (XCan @ Jul 31 2005, 05:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> 3 knife slashes to kill a vanilla skulk.
3 bites to kill a vanilla marine... </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
im pretty sure its 4 now

30 + 30 - 1 + 30 = 89
knife , knife , regen , knife

or something im lazy and bad at doin this for a forum, but im pretty sure the regen makes you live with 1 hp.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Oh yah, you're totally correct there.

ultranewb · August 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tankefugl @ Jul 31 2005, 06:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ultranewb @ Jul 30 2005, 09:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> At the maximum distance for registering a hit, bites aimed lower than parallel to the target will MISS yet bites aimed upward will HIT. This completely goes against any euclidian measurement in 2d or 3d space. In my opinon, bite is <b>broken</b> and needs to be redesigned. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Care to elaborate and post a bug report? </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I'll see if I can get a really small demo to attach to a bug report.

Edit: Done

<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=38&t=96707' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....ST&f=38&t=96707</a>

The demos should describe the problems better and make them pretty obvious.

Balance Issue

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