More stuff going on it seems, all over the place...suspect packages, areas being evacuated. Someone said police snipers moved into Harrow Road a little while ago...
And a mate told me the guy that shot was all wired up, not sure where he got that from though. That makes 5 rounds to the chest even more dangerous...
Coleman that's true but armed police are sent instead of standard officers, normally. Armed police must have been caught up somewhere at the time and the threat must be imminent for standard officers to get given a firearm.
Standard officers aren't the most proficient in firearms either as I believe that isn't a big part of their training schedule. Under the pressure and lack of weapons training etc. they did very well to contain the situation.
On my way past Southampton Central Train station yesterday (S.F.C. FTW!) I met up with armed police officers carrying G36's with LAMs and their pistols were USP's maybe, all I could see was the handle, but they seemed nice enough we had a chat and told them that they are doing the right thing by protecting a station.
All the same, guns on officers are almost unheard of in England, guns in general even more so.
<!--QuoteBegin-Thaldarin+Jul 22 2005, 08:18 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Thaldarin @ Jul 22 2005, 08:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Private Coleman+Jul 22 2005, 02:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Private Coleman @ Jul 22 2005, 02:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't believe the UK officers are equipped with full-auto glocks, but I could be wrong. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> UK Officers are not armed with anything but a baton. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> wow shows how much you know about the police force
<!--QuoteBegin-Private Coleman+Jul 22 2005, 01:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Private Coleman @ Jul 22 2005, 01:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't believe the UK officers are equipped with full-auto glocks, but I could be wrong. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The eye witness im my posts on the first page (which i should of added) said the police officer was holding a <i>machine pistol</i> of some sort.
Glocks can be automatic!
[edit] BTW our police force is 10x better armed than our Military. Ive watched TV shows about the armed police and seen them carrying HK G36, USPs and Steyr Augs
<!--QuoteBegin-Spetsnaz+Jul 22 2005, 09:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Spetsnaz @ Jul 22 2005, 09:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> [edit] BTW our police force is 10x better armed than our Military. Ive watched TV shows about the armed police and seen them carrying HK G36, USPs and Steyr Augs <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh man yeah, totally better than a Challenger 2!!
Y'all are too easy to bait. There's no sport here <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
X_StickmanNot good enough for a custom title.Join Date: 2003-04-15Member: 15533Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-arctica+Jul 22 2005, 01:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (arctica @ Jul 22 2005, 01:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Thaldarin+Jul 22 2005, 08:18 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Thaldarin @ Jul 22 2005, 08:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Private Coleman+Jul 22 2005, 02:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Private Coleman @ Jul 22 2005, 02:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't believe the UK officers are equipped with full-auto glocks, but I could be wrong. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> UK Officers are not armed with anything but a baton. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Combine Metro = UK Officers in disguise? ohnoes. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> From what I heard they were plain-clothes cops. So that can be pretty much anything. As far as I'm aware though, armed police in England make it pretty clear that they're armed. I didn't know plain clothes cops could even CARRY a weapon.
Sorry, but I do not see where humor comes into this, and the record'll show I'm usually a rather sarcastic guy. A man was executed with five shots into his head. If that was necessary - the Spiegel reports he wore a "stuffed looking" dark coat - that's bad enough, but joking about it? If the police was wrong, which is always a possibility in such tense situations, they just killed an innocent man in broad daylight. Show some respect, folks.
<!--QuoteBegin-X Stickman+Jul 22 2005, 10:48 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (X Stickman @ Jul 22 2005, 10:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I didn't know plain clothes cops could even CARRY a weapon. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ...why wouldnt they be able to? Sure solved the problem this time. ^_^
edit: Whats his face's "mate" said that the dude was all wired up. And I thought it was five shots to the <i>chest</i> not the head, Nem. I'm pretty sure it was a terrorist myself, but I'm optimistic <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Haze+Jul 22 2005, 03:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Haze @ Jul 22 2005, 03:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> edit: Whats his face's "mate" said that the dude was all wired up. And I thought it was five shots to the <i>chest</i> not the head, Nem. I'm pretty sure it was a terrorist myself, but I'm optimistic <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> As with everything else, that's a matter of your news source right now. The German media seems to base itself on an eyewitness who saw the shots going into the head. And let's just say I sincerely hope the police wasn't that 'optimistic' <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+Jul 22 2005, 10:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Jul 22 2005, 10:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sorry, but I do not see where humor comes into this, and the record'll show I'm usually a rather sarcastic guy. A man was executed with five shots into his head. If that was necessary - the Spiegel reports he wore a "stuffed looking" dark coat - that's bad enough, but joking about it? If the police was wrong, which is always a possibility in such tense situations, they just killed an innocent man in broad daylight. Show some respect, folks. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If it turns out that the dead guy was in fact an innocent who the police decided to execute, of course I take it back. I'll take it back a thousand times. But I won't mourn or show respect for someone who wants to blow himself up in a crowded area.
Hardly a grudge - I don't know who he was. Assuming he was a terrorist with malicious intent, though, he was somone trying to do harm to innocent people. That is worthy of scorn, regardless of how dead he is.
Was. He is no more. Which is by way of being my point <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+Jul 22 2005, 11:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Jul 22 2005, 11:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Had they captured him and were about to put him up for trial, I'd be with you on that - but he's gone. What use is scorn going to have there? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It doesn't have a use, apart from making me feel a bit better, I suppose. It stems from contempt for this person and what he tried to do, but also drains it. Maybe it helps others, too. Maybe not.
I'm interested as to why it matters whether he's alive or dead or not when it comes to mocking him. It's not as though whether someone being dead affects the consequences of his actions taken while he was alive.
Hey, now we've got a difference here - his actions, and his character. I'm just about as ready to judge his actions (if they were his actions) as wrong as you are. But judging or actively resenting a person who is no longer in existence seems to be ultimately pointless to me. The way I see it, he was either (if you think like me) a criminal, or (if you think like Bush) an enemy soldier. Both are buried with dignity after their death. Sure, scorn will make you feel better right now, but it also makes you more ready to feel antagonistic in general - which is not exactly healthy. Death just seems to be the best point for closure.
Just thinking back to the whole shooting incident. What i heard the suspect was challenged by the police but failed to follow orders therefore the suspect was forced to go on the run and the police to pursue. However the suspect must of know (if he wanted to get away) that running to the trains was a dead end, unless he was running there to forfill his task by exploading a bomb. The police must of felt that everyones lives were in great danger enough to be able to unload 5 rounds into the suspect.
The best eyewitness account also said that the suspect's expressions on his face were of shock and dismay. Like his plans were completely shaken.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+Jul 22 2005, 11:31 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Jul 22 2005, 11:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Hey, now we've got a difference here - his actions, and his character. I'm just about as ready to judge his actions (if they were his actions) as wrong as you are. But judging or actively resenting a person who is no longer in existence seems to be ultimately pointless to me. The way I see it, he was either (if you think like me) a criminal, or (if you think like Bush) an enemy soldier. Both are buried with dignity after their death. Sure, scorn will make you feel better right now, but it also makes you more ready to feel antagonistic in general - which is not exactly healthy. Death just seems to be the best point for closure. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> A more natural point of closure is when this situation is over, since his ilk will be trying to kill again. This was not a lone psycho; this was a small cog in a larger operation. That does not mean that closure will happen, though. It's not a bad thing if it doesn't, as long as feelings aren't misplaced.
We may give criminals a proper burial, but that doesn't mean that we ever forgive or forget if their crimes were heinous. Dr. Harold Shipman, for example. People did not show respect for his death when he hanged himself. And why should they? Shipman killed many innocent people. It's okay to despise Shipman while he was alive, but not when he just died? Let's face it, he never touched most people's lives. There should be no need for closure, because there should be no "opening" of feeling for him. We didn't <i>know</i> Shipman. But by his actions, Shipman showed us that he deserved the loathing he got. He was a *****.
I'd say it's much more unhealthy to try and flick emotions on and off like light switches than to recognise them, and deal with them accordingly. Given the fact that he attempted murder, I think a nasty joke about him is fairly harmless. Going out and smashing stuff wouldn't be.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+Jul 22 2005, 10:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Jul 22 2005, 10:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sorry, but I do not see where humor comes into this, and the record'll show I'm usually a rather sarcastic guy. A man was executed with five shots into his head. If that was necessary - the Spiegel reports he wore a "stuffed looking" dark coat - that's bad enough, but joking about it? If the police was wrong, which is always a possibility in such tense situations, they just killed an innocent man in broad daylight. Show some respect, folks. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> why may we not joke?
dont you think people joke about things thats wrong to make it less bad, if your in shock ór your really sad, joking ussually helps on your mood, i cant see why this doesnt count here, a guy the police thought was going to kill them AND alot of other people got shoot, dont we have to respect the choice of the police?
Like i said earlyer people deal with different emotions in different ways. I remember a firefight here in the UK telling me about a story when he got called out to a house fire, unfortunately some people were unable to get out in time and died in the fire. But at dinner the firefighters were cracking jokes, one even held up his piece of fried bacon and said "what does this remind you of".
I don't like it one bit, its shocking and disturbing, but even if this guy was innocent its his own fault. Armed police try to stop you and you run off, whether criminal or not you shouldn't expect any more than to be treated forcefully and harshly in such heated times...
But what got me was when the eyewitness described the man as "petrified". Maybe the pacifist in me is coming up to say hello, but it just doesn't seem right.
Even so, I respect their decision - I personally would have conserved a little more ammo.
<!--QuoteBegin-AlienCow+Jul 22 2005, 06:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AlienCow @ Jul 22 2005, 06:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I personally would have conserved a little more ammo. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And thus comes the humour from a serious post.
Private_ColemanPhD in Video GamesJoin Date: 2002-11-07Member: 7510Members
<!--QuoteBegin-Metalcat+Jul 22 2005, 12:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Metalcat @ Jul 22 2005, 12:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> why may we not joke?
dont you think people joke about things thats wrong to make it less bad, if your in shock ór your really sad, joking ussually helps on your mood ... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> OT: I can't stand it when I do something like trip over or hurt myself by accident and people who do actually care make a joke to "lighten the mood". Doesn't it sort of give the impression they don't give a damn? /OT
I don't think it was excessive at all. For one reason: He was a suicide bomber. He could have tried to blow himself up as soon as the officers tried to arrest him. Killing him quickly was the best way to prevent the deaths of the officers and anyone else around.
Obviously if this turns out not to be the case, then yes it is an incredible tragedy. No one is disputing that. And there will be severe punishment for such an incident. But taking into scope all of what has happened, that's an unlikely scenario.
Comments
And a mate told me the guy that shot was all wired up, not sure where he got that from though. That makes 5 rounds to the chest even more dangerous...
Standard officers aren't the most proficient in firearms either as I believe that isn't a big part of their training schedule. Under the pressure and lack of weapons training etc. they did very well to contain the situation.
All the same, guns on officers are almost unheard of in England, guns in general even more so.
UK Officers are not armed with anything but a baton. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
wow shows how much you know about the police force
The eye witness im my posts on the first page (which i should of added) said the police officer was holding a <i>machine pistol</i> of some sort.
Glocks can be automatic!
[edit] BTW our police force is 10x better armed than our Military. Ive watched TV shows about the armed police and seen them carrying HK G36, USPs and Steyr Augs
Oh man yeah, totally better than a Challenger 2!!
Oh man yeah, totally better than a Challenger 2!! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<span style='color:white'>Be nice or be gone.</span>
UK Officers are not armed with anything but a baton. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Combine Metro = UK Officers in disguise? ohnoes. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
From what I heard they were plain-clothes cops. So that can be pretty much anything. As far as I'm aware though, armed police in England make it pretty clear that they're armed. I didn't know plain clothes cops could even CARRY a weapon.
Show some respect, folks.
...why wouldnt they be able to? Sure solved the problem this time. ^_^
edit: Whats his face's "mate" said that the dude was all wired up. And I thought it was five shots to the <i>chest</i> not the head, Nem. I'm pretty sure it was a terrorist myself, but I'm optimistic <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
As with everything else, that's a matter of your news source right now. The German media seems to base itself on an eyewitness who saw the shots going into the head. And let's just say I sincerely hope the police wasn't that 'optimistic' <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Show some respect, folks. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If it turns out that the dead guy was in fact an innocent who the police decided to execute, of course I take it back. I'll take it back a thousand times. But I won't mourn or show respect for someone who wants to blow himself up in a crowded area.
It doesn't have a use, apart from making me feel a bit better, I suppose. It stems from contempt for this person and what he tried to do, but also drains it. Maybe it helps others, too. Maybe not.
I'm interested as to why it matters whether he's alive or dead or not when it comes to mocking him. It's not as though whether someone being dead affects the consequences of his actions taken while he was alive.
The way I see it, he was either (if you think like me) a criminal, or (if you think like Bush) an enemy soldier. Both are buried with dignity after their death. Sure, scorn will make you feel better right now, but it also makes you more ready to feel antagonistic in general - which is not exactly healthy. Death just seems to be the best point for closure.
The best eyewitness account also said that the suspect's expressions on his face were of shock and dismay. Like his plans were completely shaken.
The way I see it, he was either (if you think like me) a criminal, or (if you think like Bush) an enemy soldier. Both are buried with dignity after their death. Sure, scorn will make you feel better right now, but it also makes you more ready to feel antagonistic in general - which is not exactly healthy. Death just seems to be the best point for closure. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A more natural point of closure is when this situation is over, since his ilk will be trying to kill again. This was not a lone psycho; this was a small cog in a larger operation. That does not mean that closure will happen, though. It's not a bad thing if it doesn't, as long as feelings aren't misplaced.
We may give criminals a proper burial, but that doesn't mean that we ever forgive or forget if their crimes were heinous. Dr. Harold Shipman, for example. People did not show respect for his death when he hanged himself. And why should they? Shipman killed many innocent people. It's okay to despise Shipman while he was alive, but not when he just died? Let's face it, he never touched most people's lives. There should be no need for closure, because there should be no "opening" of feeling for him. We didn't <i>know</i> Shipman. But by his actions, Shipman showed us that he deserved the loathing he got. He was a *****.
I'd say it's much more unhealthy to try and flick emotions on and off like light switches than to recognise them, and deal with them accordingly. Given the fact that he attempted murder, I think a nasty joke about him is fairly harmless. Going out and smashing stuff wouldn't be.
Show some respect, folks. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
why may we not joke?
dont you think people joke about things thats wrong to make it less bad, if your in shock ór your really sad, joking ussually helps on your mood, i cant see why this doesnt count here, a guy the police thought was going to kill them AND alot of other people got shoot, dont we have to respect the choice of the police?
But what got me was when the eyewitness described the man as "petrified". Maybe the pacifist in me is coming up to say hello, but it just doesn't seem right.
Even so, I respect their decision - I personally would have conserved a little more ammo.
And Spetsnaz, thats just sick^
And thus comes the humour from a serious post.
dont you think people joke about things thats wrong to make it less bad, if your in shock ór your really sad, joking ussually helps on your mood ... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
OT: I can't stand it when I do something like trip over or hurt myself by accident and people who do actually care make a joke to "lighten the mood". Doesn't it sort of give the impression they don't give a damn?
/OT
On-Topic: terrorists are bad k?
Obviously if this turns out not to be the case, then yes it is an incredible tragedy. No one is disputing that. And there will be severe punishment for such an incident. But taking into scope all of what has happened, that's an unlikely scenario.