Hmg Before Ha A Waste?

digicrab · November 2002

<div class="IPBDescription">Feed the famished skulks!!!</div> Marines always get HMG before HA. If I'm correct, that's just how the tech tree works out.

As a skulk, I LOVE eating HMG marines. I dont care whether you have an HMG, shotty, GL, or a portable nuke launcher. YOU are not going to have a chance to shoot at me.

All it takes to take an unarmored marine down is 2 bites. If I do my job as a skulk, you won't even see me.

As I learn more and more of skulk Zen, I can easily take down a team of 3 unarmored marines. I've even been able to chomp on those delicious HA from time to time.

The question is, as more skilled skulk players appear, will it be wise to invest the money into a HMG before HA?

Judge for yourself. Meanwhile...

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'>

Lavaman killed someguy1 with bitegun
Lavaman killed someguy2 with bitegun
Lavaman killed someguy3 with bitegun

...look in the dark corners...

Injury · November 2002

I'm not so sure its a waste, there are skilled Marine players out there who know what to do and where to look. I suppose from your standpoint it is true. Marines are sometimes real boneheads when it comes to situational awareness. Don't be surprised though if a Marine blows you away before you have a chance to move.

While the community fleshes itself out with newer players and older players, people tend to become more experienced, its true. Even as the Skulk players become more skilled, the same has to happen for the Marines to some degree, no?

A good Marine team will be spread out wide enough to prevent a Skulk from eating their rumps in quick succession. Of course, this isn't always the case and a lot of it is up to the situation. As a Skulk I've once killed five Marines building a Resource Tower on ns_nothing. Sometimes you get lucky, but smart Marine teams will post sentries and you might get creamed. All in all, I don't think Heavy Machine Guns are a waste if given to players who can easily handle them.

Inexorable · November 2002

At least, don't hand out a lot of HMGs before you can protect them with HA. Same deal with Shotguns; don't give everybody one, but one guy carrying an HMG in a group can give you that extra punch.

BoddoZerg · November 2002

HMG before HA is mostly useful to give one Marine in a group of 2-3 a hmg, if he dies someone else can pick up the HMG.

Tomten · November 2002

This might be a stupid comparison, but if a HMG destroys two defense chambers, you've earned it's cost.

In most cases I would do like Bodozerg suggested, and hand out a HMG to a larger group of marines, if one marine goes down, the rest can take the HMG.

Madcaptn · November 2002

It depends, if they have Fade, get the HMG to try to get them right away, if they only have 1 hive (skulks) get HA cuz the skulks will die to your lmg

Inexorable · November 2002

If they only have 1 hive, just get the armor upgrades instead. It's much cheaper and affects all the marines. In fact, the first level of armor takes them from 2 bite snacks to 3 bites. A 50% improvement in lifespan for all marines for only a 20 RP investment.

Venmoch · November 2002

When commanding I tend to only give the Big guns to jetpack/HA marines, they usually last longer

Warfare · November 2002

I played an excelent public round where the whole marine team stuck together.
We didn't even bother to use anything else than LMG and Welder. If your team plays right, that LMG and HA is all you need (we didn't even need the HA).

But if I'd have to choose, I'd choose HA, really. But before ANY of that, I'd go with Motion Tracking. Always, always motion tracking.

Redford · November 2002

HMG without HA is significantly more handy then HA without HMG. Even a normal marine wielding an HMG is dangerous, and the HMG only costs 25~ RP... that's about 2 chambers. if the HMG marine kills ONE LERK or a couple gorges and a few chambers, he's allready made up his cost without the pricy HA, and with the small inventment of a jetpack, he becomes even more deadly. In addition, a good marine with HMG won't get mauled by skulks. They attack, they get gibbed nearly instantly. He works with a group, he can evade skulks just as well as anyone. Just make sure to drop him health and possibly welds if needed.

Upgrade the armory ASAP, and start passing out HMGs and/or shotguns whenever the have the RPs, it will do your team wonders.

yes, you -need- HA or jetpacks to combat fades. a marine with only HMG won't stand a huge chance... but anyway, the HMG only marine only costs half as much.

EDIT - fixed a typo (darn insomnia), added 3rd paragraph...

Spotter · November 2002

My Philosphy, a bigger gun will not improve poor aim. The only ones to get big guns, are those who know how to fight. Course this only works when I command.

Heavy armor is a marine's death suit, get jet packs, I just like saying that.

If you have motion tracking, only foolish marines will get killed by skulks. Marines that know the maps, and know how to keep turning at the right time's to look for blips, and know where the aliens will be, should not die by a skulk. If they do, they are not the kind I will give a bigger gun to.

But then again, if I am to give out a bigger gun, I'm giving out shot guns unless they ask for something for chambers. HMG's are turret killers for the most part.

Foggy · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (digicrab @ Nov 22 2002, 01:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'>

Lavaman killed someguy1 with bitegun
Lavaman killed someguy2 with bitegun
Lavaman killed someguy3 with bitegun</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
<b>You're</b> Lavaman? Dang, you were the master skulk in one game.. do you remember eating my face?

JooJooFlop · November 2002

I like to invest in arms/armor upgrades before I worry too much about HA/HMGs. That way marines are more effective from the time they spawn, and it's much cheaper in the long run.

I usually have HA/HMGs in time for the Fades to show up, however.

Stoneburg · November 2002

I try to get armour at lvl2 before I give out HA, or even better lvl3.

I don't ever give out HMG or GL to people before they have HA (or jetpack, if they can use it)

No-one is allowed to go alone with HA.

No-one is allowed to wear HA without a welder.

Also, Aliens RP's are not as "valuable" as marines, taking out 2 chambers does <b>not</b> mean the HMG had paid off.

Surprisingly few use the deadliest combo's in the game, for both species:

Marine: Multiple HA's welding eachother <b>all the time</b>

Aliens: Fade with Lerk for umbra cover.

Ps. HMG and HA cost the same.

bitnine · November 2002

Yeah, HMGs before HA I view mainly for taking out turrets. It's probably to use shotties when you don't have HA, since they can take down most lighter aliens and chambers a-plenty and it doesn't slow you down to a crawl. Besides, they are cheaper.

Narfwak · November 2002

Pfft, HA is mostly pointless compared to a skilled jetpacker. I would agree though, rushing to get HMG's instead of all the other much more usefull upgrades and items is downright stupid. Armor uprades are holy, and motion tracking is <i>the</i> most powerfull tool in the entire game.

Sirus · November 2002

not true, HA is indeed useful, although i wouldnt always use it in every situation, many times a jetpack is required. rushing to get hmg's is not stupid at all. if u can get hmg's b4 they secure a 2nd hive than ur better off. motion tracking is indeed useful, i dont know if its the most powerful tool. if there was no welder thered be many times that a marine team would be doomed. i dont know about a marine team being doomed w/o motion tracking, however it does allow a marine to be more careful and be more prudent when there's aliens around.

Narfwak · November 2002

Motion tracking has saved my **obscenity** more times than anything else the Frontiersmen have in their arsenal. Observation is key in NS, and motion tracking is the key to observation.

Besides, you have to pay through the nose to get an HMG. That HMG is only useful for one marine, maybe more if the first marine gets killed and someone else has the brains to pick it up. While you have to pay through the nose even more to get motion tracking, it lasts the entire game, and affects <i>everyone</i>, even the commander. A good player should recognize an HMG for what it is - heavy artillery. And you don't give the big guns to everyone, just the select few that can use them. HA also has its uses (putting a few man-shaped tanks in the front lines can be quite powerful), but is also extremely expensive when compared to either the simple armor upgrades or the jetpack (which is ridiculously cheap, only 9 RP!).

In the end, it all comes down to what is the most cost-effective solution to a problem. While HA and HMG’s can tear a hive apart in seconds, they cost far too much to be effective in mass quantities. A jetpack and upgraded LMG gets you a lot farther for a lot less cost.

Sirus · November 2002

i challenge u to take down fades and onos with a lmg and a jetpack. and if u did once i would count it of luck or a newb. in the end, it doesnt come down to cost-effectiveness, it doesnt matter how many rp's u have, it really is based on the efficiency of marines. given a team of marines with little game experience and give them all grenade launchers or hmgs, and they easily be taken down by skulks. a group of experienced marines, even with lmgs, with HA and welders , even without HA is priceless. but motion tracking wont save ur hide if u cant do anythign else correctly.

Immacolata · November 2002

Immacolatas rule of commanderdom

No HGM before HA
No HA without Welder.
No HA to long rangers.

If I spot a marine getting a HA, hmg and then run off on his own little silly errand, I will not give him again. I make sure to tell that "Marines, only HA+hmg to you if you stick to your group".

I want my HA'ers in groups, with welders so they can support each other in the field.
You dont need HMG before the fades enter play. A shotty does very nice vs towers if you need to clear a wall of lame.

A lone HA marine with a peashooter LMG is a waste. Dont do it unless you're swimming in RP.

A HMG marine with no HA is fodder for lerks, ambushing skulks and definitely fades. he can take so little punishment that he usually ends up dead fast like. Even with a hmg. Perhaps a team of 4 very skilled and trained marines with hmg's might survive. But I have yet to see it.

A HA marine with a HMG is good, but he can still be skulked if he's alone. Vs a fade he wil lose a ranged duel as he is slow. He cannot repair so if the comm isnt nannying (or nanoing) with kits, he dies in the end. The fade can usually regen or run home to momma Def chamber.

Two HA marines with no welders fare better, but will succumb in the end.

As commander, you can still turn a losing game to a winning one when fades enter and start eating your RP nodes. Get marines to base. Save up for 3 HA, a shotty, a HMG and a nader and 3 welders. That's uh

25*3 = 75
+25*1 = 100
+20*1 = 120
+25*1 = 145
+10*3 = 175.

If you can manage to scrounge that together before the fades rape you, the game can be turned.
This allows your 3 fully armored gun toting marines to move out in a coherent group and lay waste to up to moderate resistance. They must be aware that team welding is mandatory, and the commander must nanny them with ammo and hp at required moments.

In a tight situation you can let them go Shotty shotty and lmg- the lmg marine can still contribute on skulks and gorges, and he can weld his team membesr when they're busy fighting bigger aliens. Cheapass Ha kit costs then only

25*3 = 75
20*2 = 105
10*3 = 135

They must also STICK TOGETHER. The 10 pr a welder costs will pay back by the time you've welded each other for about 200 AP. that's the base HA value I think. And you get to keep the weapon you'd otherwise drop when you died.

They can then proceed to capturing a res node with their nade spams (unless huge tower wall of lame is up). They cna also try to take out a hive, making sure the aliens dont get poison gas upgrade on lerks, bile bombs and onos.

I consider a marine with HA and No welder support a short sighted investment. I have played too many games where squandering the resources nilly willy on shotties now, ha 30 secs later, perhaps a widdle welder, means the eventual defeat of the marines.

So remember, HA comes for team working marines that gets welders and some heavy guns.

Narfwak · November 2002

Agreed, although you have no mention of jetpacks.

Immacolata · November 2002

That is because I dont believe in Jetpacks. They don't exist <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'>

I ask: how good are 3 Jetpack marines with shotties, nades and a hmg when duking it out with offense chambers or fades? As I understand they can either go HA or JP, not both... My impression with fades is, that only with HA and offensive power can you beat them. Dodging about as another Roger Ramjet isn't working - I might be mistaken though....

Ttruth is I am a n00b commander, and today I had enough work on my hands figuring out how to actually win as one. And I still havent found a good use for them JP as marine myself, so giving them in-game was only done on request. Only one guy asked. I managed to win today as comm for the first time, sticking to the rules above. Luckily my alien adversaries where not the best in the world, since I was having a hard time fighting the interface (I MISS HOT key grouping and I miss a "select all marines button"!). I did NOT make the mistake of overfortifying my early res points. I think I even let one stay alone and it remained up for quite a while, thus earning back the investment goodly.

At the time I heard the first fade acid rocket kill a marine of mine, over in that there 3rd hive we'd turretted up, I recalled all my men to base. Well, they died and I asked them to stick. Soon I could outfit them in complete armor with heavy guns and welders. Then we proceeded and took the initative back, securing back hive 3 at first to deny them their onos and gas clouds, and slowly whittled down their res points as we made progress to the next hive.

Sorry, rambling on here.

I dunno a thing about jetpacks, I have to learn those too <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'>

Minstrel_Knight · November 2002

If the aliens have skulk players with skill HMG on light armor marines is throwing away money.

bitnine · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Immacolata @ Nov 23 2002, 07:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>My impression with fades is, that only with HA and offensive power can you beat them. Dodging about as another Roger Ramjet isn't working - I might be mistaken though....</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
The jetpack is actually fairly useful in fighting Fades. Today I killed a Fade with a welder because he couldn't retreat when I zoomed right up to his back. Jetpacks don't allow Fades to run and hide when wounded, and can be particularly lethal when combine with a shotgun.

Injury · November 2002

I've been saying that for a week, but HMG/HA is the dominating scheme.I'm more effective with LMGs and Shotguns than I am with HMGs and Grenade Launchers. Odd, I suppose..

I really do love Shotguns, I named mine Leia.

Inexorable · November 2002

That's disturbing.

Question · November 2002

You spawn a hmg in base,some n00b takes it,runs off to be rambo and dies within 30 seconds far from any marines.

What a waste of resources.

Juji · November 2002

Yea, especially on pubs, it's not a smart idea, unless you know the guy that you are giving it to is very skilled (but really, until you need to kill lvl 2 and 3 aliens, you don't need hmgs).

playerman · November 2002

I say HMG early in the game is a waste - unless the comm has some special strategy in mind, willing to gamble it all. (eg save a lot early on to research HA and HMG -at the same time-, but all that saving does leave the marines weak initially)

Normally you'd want a HMG to go with HA and welder (and keep those marines' health up - a low investment to prevent a much bigger loss of resources).

With just 50 armor most marines will lose that expensive HMG quickly.

While you can have 110 armor and a more powerfull LMG for a few one-time investments. Skulks have little to counter that. Two such upgraded marines can take on a fade.

I think the problem with LA marines dying from skulks in the early game is more due to low armor than due to lack of fire power. so i'd first upgrade armor, then lmg, then second armor upgrade and second lmg upgrade.

Upgrading basic armor and weapons also gives marines a much better chance during a losing end game; in spite of having practically no resources they still have 110 armor and a powerfull LMG. Then the marines may actually have a chance of turning the tide.

Injury · November 2002

I have to at least partially disagree with you on that. A Marine - despite his Light Armor - is only as effective as his player. When moving in groups ( which Marines should always do in my opinion), its best to have a variety of weapons, though in Light Armor groups, the Light Machine Gun would probably be the dominant weapon. An effective squad with four Light Machine Gunners and a Heavy providing support fire from a covered position can rip through most early to mid game aliens.

Whenever I command, which is a novelty in itself, I tend to send my Marines out in groups of three to five, one will always have a Heavy Machine Gun and one may have a Shotgun. You can always pick up the dropped weapon of a fallen comrade, which is actually fairly good recycling if you could get to the weapon in time. Keep your heavy weapons man in the middle of the group so he can provide support fire without the risk of exposing himself. Everyone knows Rambo is best with the crossbow, but there aren't any crossbows in NS. Something to keep in mind.

Narfwak · November 2002

Ah. Not using jetpacks is a classic n00b mistake. Most people don't realize that it takes a good bit of skill to chomp someone hovering twenty feet above you. In addition to avoiding attack, jetpacks give marines something they in general lack - speed. Marines are incredibly slow when compared to any kind of alien other than a Gorge. A HA/HMG marine may be a walking tank, but the move like Big Bertha after a case of Ho-Ho's.

Giving Heavy Weapons to jetpack marines is a very wise choice. Most don't realize that heavy weapons slow you down regardless of whether you are wearing HA or not. By using a jetpack, you can effectively leap your way through corridors, much reducing the speed penalty for using Heavy Weapons.

Hmg Before Ha A Waste?

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